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Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: follow-up on catenary cut hammock body

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  • Ralph Oborn
    You can do rapid prototyping with the heavy cheap stuff. Then when proportions are right, use the good stuff. Ralph
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 28, 2005
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      You can do rapid prototyping with the heavy cheap stuff. Then when
      proportions are right, use the good stuff.

      Ralph


      On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:38:05 -0000, Jeremy <jeremy@...> wrote:
      >
      > Ray,
      >
      > Thanks for the quick reply. My current homemade delight uses a 100"
      > ridgecord with 120"
      > of fabric total, which is the dimensions of my old (and comfy) HH ultralight
      > backpacker
      > (non Asym). I've seen that Speer Hammocks tend to be shorter than
      > Hennessy's, so I
      > would like to begin experimenting with shorter lengths to find something
      > that's lighter,
      > and still just as comfortable.
      >
      > I also would like to experiment with hammock width more. Currently, My
      > hammock is 60"
      > wide (I used $1/yd 1.1oz rs from Wal*Mart, straight off of the bolt), but
      > there's a ton of
      > space in that width that I can't use. I want to see how bringing that width
      > down to 54
      > inches, and then to 48 inches will effect things. Particularly, I'd like to
      > rid the edges of
      > "floppy" useless hammock fabric, which is where these catenary curves may
      > come in to
      > play.
      >
      > I haven't been able to find the 1.1oz on the $1 rack lately, so I asked this
      > question to see if
      > anyone else had been experimenting so I could save what I have left as long
      > as I can (I'd
      > guess about 30 yds total).
      >
      > Doing some quick math on HH, it seems the ratio of hammock length to
      > ridgeline length
      > changes. The longer the hammock, the longer, even in proportion, the
      > ridgeline.
      >
      > I've been using 3/32 round nylon cord for the whipping, and it's been
      > working well. I use
      > about 20 inches of cord per whip, which creates a whip of about 1-1.5 inches
      > long.
      >
      > -howie
      >
      >
      > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Garlington" <rgarling@y...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jeremy@j...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > There was some discussion a while back on cutting the actual
      > > hammock body with
      > > > catenary curves to enhance its lay.
      > >
      > >
      > > I messed with various cuts. If you are going for a minimal weight,
      > > minimal length hammock it is probably worth experimenting a little
      > > with different shapes; however, I'm convinced that some extra length
      > > is worth the minimal extra weight. If you add this extra length,
      > > you don't really need a fancy shape for the bottom.
      > >
      > > If you are about 6' and below, 114" between the knots with a 100"
      > > ridge distance give a very comfortable hammock without worrying
      > > about a precise shape.
      > >
      > > http://www.garlington.biz/Ray/SilkHammock/
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Jeremy
      Shane, Thanks for the quick reply. If I do try it, I will certainly share my findings as well. I want to try a shorter hammock, so maybe I ll make 4
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 28, 2005
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        Shane,

        Thanks for the quick reply. If I do try it, I will certainly share my findings as well. I want to
        try a shorter hammock, so maybe I'll make 4 different variations.

        96 x 60, no catenary cuts
        96 x 60, catenary cuts
        96 x 48, no canteanry cuts
        96 x 48, catenary cuts

        all with a ridgeline of 84 inches.

        It's a good thing hammocks are quick to make :D

        -howie

        >
        > If I get around to it first, I'll report my findings, otherwise, let
        > us know how it works if you try it.
        >
        > Shane "Mirage"...
      • Ray Garlington
        ... Currently, My hammock is 60 ... bolt), but there s a ton of ... that width down to 54 ... I can vouch for the change from 60 inches down to about 52
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jeremy@j...> wrote:
          > I also would like to experiment with hammock width more.
          Currently, My hammock is 60"
          > wide (I used $1/yd 1.1oz rs from Wal*Mart, straight off of the
          bolt), but there's a ton of
          > space in that width that I can't use. I want to see how bringing
          that width down to 54
          > inches, and then to 48 inches will effect things.

          I can vouch for the change from 60 inches down to about 52 inches. I
          do not miss the extra fabric at all.


          >Particularly, I'd like to rid the edges of
          > "floppy" useless hammock fabric, which is where these catenary
          curves may come in to
          > play.

          I just pull out about 2 to 3 inches at the hemmed end before
          whipping. That allows the edge of the hammock to pull taught when
          occupied. My version of the asym, catenary cut didn't help tighten
          the floppy edges any. The asym cut did create more noticeable
          pockets of fabric at the foot and head.
        • Jeremy
          Ray, I m just finishing a shorter hammock right now (8 feet long). While it s still 5 feet wide, I think I ll lay in it for a while, undo the whipping, and
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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            Ray,

            I'm just finishing a shorter hammock right now (8 feet long). While it's still 5 feet wide, I
            think I'll lay in it for a while, undo the whipping, and cut it down to 4 feet to see what
            happens.

            Even when pulling the last 2-3 inches before whipping, it's still limp along the edges. I
            think it may be due, at least in part, to the width of the fabric. I'll report back if and when
            I do cut it down.

            Right now, I'm thinking that if I do cut it down and the edges are still too floppy, I might
            cut catenary curves in the long sides to help tension it.

            I know what you mean about "pocket" os extra fabric with the Asym cut. It didn't occur to
            me until this morning that I experimented with something similar to that a while back.
            Instead of making it a curve, however, I symply cut the hammock body as a paralellogram.
            It did make the sleeping surface really flat, but it was uncomfortably flat. I abandond the
            idea after spending a night after the test in my pre-Asym HH UL Backpacker. So much
            more comfortable.

            -howie

            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Garlington" <rgarling@y...> wrote:
            > I can vouch for the change from 60 inches down to about 52 inches. I
            > do not miss the extra fabric at all.

            > I just pull out about 2 to 3 inches at the hemmed end before
            > whipping. That allows the edge of the hammock to pull taught when
            > occupied. My version of the asym, catenary cut didn't help tighten
            > the floppy edges any. The asym cut did create more noticeable
            > pockets of fabric at the foot and head.
          • Mirage
            ... While it s still 5 feet wide, I ... down to 4 feet to see what ... inches. I ... Howie, My current system is an 8 x4 (96 x48 ) cut piece, with whipped
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jeremy@j...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray,
              >
              > I'm just finishing a shorter hammock right now (8 feet long).
              While it's still 5 feet wide, I
              > think I'll lay in it for a while, undo the whipping, and cut it
              down to 4 feet to see what
              > happens.
              >
              > -howie
              >
              > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Garlington"
              <rgarling@y...> wrote:
              > > I can vouch for the change from 60 inches down to about 52
              inches. I
              > > do not miss the extra fabric at all.

              Howie,

              My current system is an 8'x4' (96"x48") cut piece, with whipped
              ends. The 4' width works great for me, but after many nights in the
              8' length, I've determined it's just a might bit short, mostly
              causing tightness and compression of my feet over the course of the
              night. It's tolerable, but an extra 6" will probably make it
              perfect. I'm 5'10" tall, so take that into account when you compare
              to your own needs/desires.

              Shane "Mirage"...
            • woody woodrich
              Ray, what do you mean when you say you pull out facric before whipping? Thanks, Woody in DC ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo!
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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                Ray, what do you mean when you say you 'pull out'
                facric before whipping? Thanks, Woody in DC
                --- Ray Garlington <rgarling@...> wrote:

                >
                > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy"
                > <jeremy@j...> wrote:
                > > I also would like to experiment with hammock width
                > more.
                > Currently, My hammock is 60"
                > > wide (I used $1/yd 1.1oz rs from Wal*Mart,
                > straight off of the
                > bolt), but there's a ton of
                > > space in that width that I can't use. I want to
                > see how bringing
                > that width down to 54
                > > inches, and then to 48 inches will effect things.
                >
                >
                > I can vouch for the change from 60 inches down to
                > about 52 inches. I
                > do not miss the extra fabric at all.
                >
                >
                > >Particularly, I'd like to rid the edges of
                > > "floppy" useless hammock fabric, which is where
                > these catenary
                > curves may come in to
                > > play.
                >
                > I just pull out about 2 to 3 inches at the hemmed
                > end before
                > whipping. That allows the edge of the hammock to
                > pull taught when
                > occupied. My version of the asym, catenary cut
                > didn't help tighten
                > the floppy edges any. The asym cut did create more
                > noticeable
                > pockets of fabric at the foot and head.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >




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              • Jeremy
                Mirage, Good to hear that 4 feet width will probably be OK. Just so you know, I m 5 10 , 160lbs. Your post raises an interesting question for me, however.
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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                  Mirage,

                  Good to hear that 4 feet width will probably be OK.

                  Just so you know, I'm 5'10", 160lbs.

                  Your post raises an interesting question for me, however. Your quilt is 84" long while your
                  hammock is 96" long, correct? Does the quilt just bunch up around the hammock for the
                  end 6 inches on each side? If so, doesn't it limit the spread of the hammock near the end?
                  And if you went to a longer hammock (even just 6" longer), would you need to make a
                  longer quilt, or do you think that the current length of 84" would suffice?

                  Thanks,

                  -howie

                  > Howie,
                  >
                  > My current system is an 8'x4' (96"x48") cut piece, with whipped
                  > ends. The 4' width works great for me, but after many nights in the
                  > 8' length, I've determined it's just a might bit short, mostly
                  > causing tightness and compression of my feet over the course of the
                  > night. It's tolerable, but an extra 6" will probably make it
                  > perfect. I'm 5'10" tall, so take that into account when you compare
                  > to your own needs/desires.
                  >
                  > Shane "Mirage"...
                • Mirage
                  ... quilt is 84 long while your ... the hammock for the ... the hammock near the end? ... you need to make a ... suffice? Howie, You are correct in your
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jeremy@j...> wrote:

                    > Your post raises an interesting question for me, however. Your
                    quilt is 84" long while your
                    > hammock is 96" long, correct? Does the quilt just bunch up around
                    the hammock for the
                    > end 6 inches on each side? If so, doesn't it limit the spread of
                    the hammock near the end?
                    > And if you went to a longer hammock (even just 6" longer), would
                    you need to make a
                    > longer quilt, or do you think that the current length of 84" would
                    suffice?

                    Howie,

                    You are correct in your observation, in fact the quilt is shorter
                    than the hammock and when applied, is actually ~4-6" to the inside
                    of each end of the hammock knot/whipping.

                    In practice, since the Hammock body is not perfectly straight (end
                    to end) when hung, it is actually shorter than 8', plus the quilt,
                    having a larger girth than the hammock with me in it and being 14"
                    longer than me, can still accomodate me comfortably.

                    When I get in the hammock, w/out the quilt, the head and feet are
                    very tight and narrow for the first 6-8 inches, so I don't really
                    occupy that part of the hammock anyway. The quilt still fits around
                    me completely w/ no constriction, except, as noted in an earlier
                    message, for the shoulder to hip girth. That's why I am thinking of
                    making making a "wedge" insert. I could make the bags wider, or
                    tapered at either end, more like the peapod I suspect, but I've got
                    4 bags I've made this way, and want to get them working better.

                    So, short story is yes, you are correct, but i'ts not an issue, for
                    me, based on my experience. It was not an intentional design
                    feature by any means, but it works never-the-less. The drawstring
                    at the ends gets pulled through the grossgrain loops at the corners,
                    and then tied in a slip knot on the hammock rope, just above the
                    whipped end. This keeps it from sliding laterally. I also do not
                    cinch the ends down tightly, just enough to close the gap around the
                    hammock body.

                    Anyway, long post that probably adds more confusion than clarity.
                    Keep asking though. I don't mind the questions and by no means
                    claim to have the end-all, be-all solution, just one step in a
                    progressive iteration that works for me right now. Besides, I love
                    the creative process of design and experimentation. No offense will
                    be taken to any questions asked in sincere curiostiy.

                    Shane "Mirage"...
                  • Jeremy
                    Mirage, Definately all good info to have, thanks for your willingness to share. It is greatly appreciated. At this point, I haven t decided if I want to
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                      Mirage,

                      Definately all good info to have, thanks for your willingness to share. It is greatly
                      appreciated.

                      At this point, I haven't decided if I want to attempt an over/under quilt (i.e. peapod style),
                      or a dedicated underquilt (i.e. Canoeblue/Thru-hiker style) with a dedicated top quilt (did I
                      mention that I make a killer down quilt?).

                      But I must say, after just walking in from a 28*F night, I'm leaning toward the over/under
                      style. I had the hammock stuffed into my old Marmot 0*F Never Summer bag, and was
                      toasty the whole night (in fact, too warm at some points..if you can believe it). I probably
                      would have even been warmer if it had been able to reach beyond my chest and cover my
                      shoulders/neck/head, but I used a down jacket under those parts (albeit still inside the
                      hammock) and was OK.

                      This was also quite possibly the most claustrophobic night I've ever spent in my hammock,
                      and something I wanted to ask you about. When my alarm woke me up, I shot awake, and
                      was literally reaching for the outside of the hammock. I'm guessing this feeling is
                      lessened with the wider dimensions on your quilt, and narrower dimensions of your
                      hammock (I used a 60" wide hammock last night)? I've only felt the feeling of
                      clasutrophobia once or twice in my life before, so I'm just as apt to blame it on the cold
                      I'm trying to recover from as the dimensions of the hammock.

                      Otherwise, do you care to speculate whether you'd need to create a longer quilt if you
                      went to a hammock that was 6" longer, or do you think that the same quilt dimensions
                      would suffice?

                      The end of the bag (where it "cinched" around the end of the hammock did create a
                      trouble spot for drafts. I was able to stuff my large cotton storage sack that I carry
                      everything over to the woods in into the end of the hammock which kinda stopped the
                      draft, but I was wondering if you ever had a problem with that, how you stopped it if you
                      did, or whether your quilt was better at eliminating drafts at the ends.

                      BTW, my previous "low" before speer-style hammocks was 45. That's all I could get out of
                      a couple of pads and a sleeping bag inside. Now that I can wrap a sleeping bag around
                      the outside, however, I might could push this hammock thing into the teens or single
                      didgits with no additional "gear" than I used last night.

                      Weight totals: hammock (with all ropes and tree huggers) 10oz
                      Sleeping bag: 36oz
                      Down jacket: 22oz
                      total: 68oz -or- 4.25lbs

                      Not bad for just "standard" gear. Can't wait to make some myself to get the weight down
                      even more.

                      Thanks again,

                      -howie

                      >
                      > Howie,
                      >
                      > You are correct in your observation, in fact the quilt is shorter
                      > than the hammock and when applied, is actually ~4-6" to the inside
                      > of each end of the hammock knot/whipping.
                      >
                      > In practice, since the Hammock body is not perfectly straight (end
                      > to end) when hung, it is actually shorter than 8', plus the quilt,
                      > having a larger girth than the hammock with me in it and being 14"
                      > longer than me, can still accomodate me comfortably.
                      >
                      > When I get in the hammock, w/out the quilt, the head and feet are
                      > very tight and narrow for the first 6-8 inches, so I don't really
                      > occupy that part of the hammock anyway. The quilt still fits around
                      > me completely w/ no constriction, except, as noted in an earlier
                      > message, for the shoulder to hip girth. That's why I am thinking of
                      > making making a "wedge" insert. I could make the bags wider, or
                      > tapered at either end, more like the peapod I suspect, but I've got
                      > 4 bags I've made this way, and want to get them working better.
                      >
                      > So, short story is yes, you are correct, but i'ts not an issue, for
                      > me, based on my experience. It was not an intentional design
                      > feature by any means, but it works never-the-less. The drawstring
                      > at the ends gets pulled through the grossgrain loops at the corners,
                      > and then tied in a slip knot on the hammock rope, just above the
                      > whipped end. This keeps it from sliding laterally. I also do not
                      > cinch the ends down tightly, just enough to close the gap around the
                      > hammock body.
                      >
                      > Anyway, long post that probably adds more confusion than clarity.
                      > Keep asking though. I don't mind the questions and by no means
                      > claim to have the end-all, be-all solution, just one step in a
                      > progressive iteration that works for me right now. Besides, I love
                      > the creative process of design and experimentation. No offense will
                      > be taken to any questions asked in sincere curiostiy.
                      >
                      > Shane "Mirage"...
                    • Ray Garlington
                      ... I just pull out about 2 to 3 inches at the hemmed ... I put a drawing in the photo section that might help: http://tinyurl.com/46ctw
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, woody woodrich
                        <fatherrules@y...> wrote:
                        > Ray, what do you mean when you say you 'pull out'
                        > facric before whipping? Thanks, Woody in DC
                        > --- Ray Garlington <rgarling@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        I just pull out about 2 to 3 inches at the hemmed
                        > end before
                        > whipping. That allows the edge of the hammock to
                        > pull taught when
                        > occupied.

                        I put a drawing in the photo section that might help:

                        http://tinyurl.com/46ctw
                      • zippydooda
                        Right before you whip (or tie, or sheet bend), if you pull the edges of the material about 2 or 3 inches on each end, then the fabric at the edge is shorter
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                          Right before you whip (or tie, or sheet bend), if you pull the edges
                          of the material about 2 or 3 inches on each end, then the fabric at
                          the edge is shorter than the fabric in the middle, which cuts down on
                          floppy edges. Making sense?

                          Bill in Houston

                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Garlington"
                          <rgarling@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, woody woodrich
                          > <fatherrules@y...> wrote:
                          > > Ray, what do you mean when you say you 'pull out'
                          > > facric before whipping? Thanks, Woody in DC
                          > > --- Ray Garlington <rgarling@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > I just pull out about 2 to 3 inches at the hemmed
                          > > end before
                          > > whipping. That allows the edge of the hammock to
                          > > pull taught when
                          > > occupied.
                          >
                          > I put a drawing in the photo section that might help:
                          >
                          > http://tinyurl.com/46ctw
                        • Mirage
                          ... over/under quilt (i.e. peapod style), ... dedicated top quilt (did I ... I had guessed that you were Howie of Hungry Howie fame ;) I actually built the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy" <jeremy@j...> wrote:

                            > At this point, I haven't decided if I want to attempt an
                            over/under quilt (i.e. peapod style),
                            > or a dedicated underquilt (i.e. Canoeblue/Thru-hiker style) with a
                            dedicated top quilt (did I
                            > mention that I make a killer down quilt?).

                            I had guessed that you were Howie of "Hungry Howie" fame ;)

                            I actually built the canoeblue underquilt from the plans on thru-
                            hiker first, but just couldn't leave well enough alone, and wanted
                            an item more versitle (use it on the ground as a bag when trees
                            aren't available or local regulations require shelter use or temps
                            drop too low). So I kept experimenting and here we are today. This
                            is fun stuff, even if it never "ends" ;)

                            > This was also quite possibly the most claustrophobic night I've
                            ever spent in my hammock,
                            > and something I wanted to ask you about. When my alarm woke me
                            up, I shot awake, and
                            > was literally reaching for the outside of the hammock. I'm
                            guessing this feeling is
                            > lessened with the wider dimensions on your quilt, and narrower
                            dimensions of your
                            > hammock (I used a 60" wide hammock last night)? I've only felt
                            the feeling of
                            > clasutrophobia once or twice in my life before, so I'm just as apt
                            to blame it on the cold
                            > I'm trying to recover from as the dimensions of the hammock.

                            I've not felt that, but with the velcor slit being on the top, just
                            stretching in the morning wil readily crack open the quilt. I
                            actually often sleep with it open about 1/3 of the way anyway,
                            except on really cold nights.

                            Bear in mind too, I live in a pretty temperate area (PNW) and don't
                            get out in the hills much during the winter months.

                            >
                            > Otherwise, do you care to speculate whether you'd need to create a
                            longer quilt if you
                            > went to a hammock that was 6" longer, or do you think that the
                            same quilt dimensions
                            > would suffice?

                            Excelent point. My current 8' hammock was not my first. I don't
                            have the measurements from my original speer hammock, but it was
                            made from the instructions in his book, so we can probably figure it
                            out.

                            Also note that this quilt does rig well under my Hennessy Asym
                            Backpacker. You do still need a top quilt, and I was trying to
                            avoid that, so I have moved to the speer style and it's various
                            derivatives (ala Risk and others).

                            >
                            > The end of the bag (where it "cinched" around the end of the
                            hammock did create a
                            > trouble spot for drafts. I was able to stuff my large cotton
                            storage sack that I carry
                            > everything over to the woods in into the end of the hammock which
                            kinda stopped the
                            > draft, but I was wondering if you ever had a problem with that,
                            how you stopped it if you
                            > did, or whether your quilt was better at eliminating drafts at the
                            ends.

                            Yes, I have noticed this before, and like you, stuffed extra clothes
                            down there (Frog Toggs in my case). It's only happened once or
                            twice when it got really cold. Otherwise, it actually helps with
                            ventilation a wee bit.

                            Shane "Mirage"...
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