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Poly Tube DAM

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  • Eric Sandberg
    When you talk about a poly tube - what do you mean? Where do you get these tubes?
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 11, 2004
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      When you talk about a poly tube - what do you mean? Where do you
      get these tubes?
    • Bill Fornshell
      Hi Eric, This place is one of many that sells the stuff. I am lucky someone I know here uses the stuff and has the correct type of heat sealer. I can buy
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 11, 2004
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        Hi Eric, This place is one of many that sells the
        stuff. I am lucky someone I know here uses the stuff
        and has the correct type of heat sealer. I can buy
        small amounts from them and they will cut and seal it
        anyway I want it. Look over the web site it should
        answer your question about what it is. I just created
        another way to use it.

        http://www.jcdanczak.com/our_products/subcat_53.html

        If you have more questions after you see what the
        stuff is send them. You may even find someone that
        makes bags out of the stuff or something that might
        give or sell you some to play with. Bill

        --- Eric Sandberg <docteric@...> wrote:

        >
        > When you talk about a poly tube - what do you mean?
        > Where do you
        > get these tubes?
        >
        >
        >
        >




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      • Eric Sandberg
        Thanks. I ve heard others talk about it on the boards, but could never figure out what it was. You said you know someone who uses it regularly. Could you
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 11, 2004
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          Thanks. I've heard others talk about it on the boards, but could
          never figure out what it was. You said you know someone who uses it
          regularly. Could you tell me what they do and what they use it for
          so I can see if there's someone around here that does a similar
          thing?


          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Bill Fornshell
          <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
          > Hi Eric, This place is one of many that sells the
          > stuff. I am lucky someone I know here uses the stuff
          > and has the correct type of heat sealer. I can buy
          > small amounts from them and they will cut and seal it
          > anyway I want it. Look over the web site it should
          > answer your question about what it is. I just created
          > another way to use it.
          >
          > http://www.jcdanczak.com/our_products/subcat_53.html
        • Bill Fornshell
          The Poly Tubing is used for bags to pack small things in for sale or shipping. It comes in lots of sizes from 1 to 48 s. Anyone you see selling things in
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 11, 2004
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            The Poly Tubing is used for bags to pack small things
            in for sale or shipping. It comes in lots of sizes
            from 1" to 48"s.
            Anyone you see selling things in small heat sealed
            bags are a good prospect. I would think 4 or 5 folks
            could go in and buy a roll for about $15 each but you
            would still need the sealer. I thought about buying a
            roll and a sealer but it just isn't worth it when I
            can buy small amounts and get the tubes sealed here.
            I know one person in New York State that wants to buy
            a roll but I am not sure if or when he is going to do
            it..

            If you live in a big city someone will be using it.

            You could buy it where I get mine. He will sell it in
            a package of 10 pieces of 5" by 80" or cut to what
            length you want but less than 80". Sealed 100% on one
            end and 80% on the other end with an opening so it can
            be blown up or left completely open. It would be
            $8.00 + $5.00 shipping by Priority Mail, no tracking
            or $9.00 FedEx Ground w/tracking. If anyone wants
            some send me an email off group and I will send you
            the company's ordering information. I am not in
            business with this person so it is between you and
            him. He is nice to deal with and has been very good
            about cutting and sealing the stuff any way I wanted
            it. He will take a credit card if you want to use
            one.

            Bill in Texas

            --- Eric Sandberg <docteric@...> wrote:

            >
            > Thanks. I've heard others talk about it on the
            > boards, but could
            > never figure out what it was. You said you know
            > someone who uses it
            > regularly. Could you tell me what they do and what
            > they use it for
            > so I can see if there's someone around here that
            > does a similar
            > thing?
            >
            >
            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Bill
            > Fornshell
            > <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
            > > Hi Eric, This place is one of many that sells the
            > > stuff. I am lucky someone I know here uses the
            > stuff
            > > and has the correct type of heat sealer. I can buy
            > > small amounts from them and they will cut and seal
            > it
            > > anyway I want it. Look over the web site it
            > should
            > > answer your question about what it is. I just
            > created
            > > another way to use it.
            > >
            > >
            > http://www.jcdanczak.com/our_products/subcat_53.html
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >





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          • Matthew Takeda
            ... I have some 4 mil 4 flat poly tubing that I use for packing small items. It s twice as heavy and a little narrower than what Bill is using for his DAM.
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 13, 2004
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              Bill Fornshell wrote:
              >The Poly Tubing is used for bags to pack small things
              >in for sale or shipping. It comes in lots of sizes
              >from 1" to 48"s.

              I have some 4 mil 4" flat poly tubing that I use for packing small items.
              It's twice as heavy and a little narrower than what Bill is using for his
              DAM. I've been thinking about trying it out as mattress material, but
              haven't done anything about it yet. I never have been able to justify
              buying an impulse sealer, though. I use my Tilia Foodsaver to make bags out
              of it.

              Matthew Takeda
              the JOAT
            • Bill Fornshell
              Hi Matthew, I said a long time ago that I was using 2 mil stuff but not sure if I mentioned it lately. I have some large poly bags that are 4.5mil and those
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 13, 2004
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                Hi Matthew, I said a long time ago that I was using 2
                mil stuff but not sure if I mentioned it lately. I
                have some large poly bags that are 4.5mil and those
                things are really strong. How well does the Foodsaver
                seal your bags? I was asked by someone if I thought
                something like would work for what I am doing but I
                had no idea. I looked at the sealer like is used by
                the person here where I get mine made and they cost
                about $60. I just buy the tubes as I need them a few
                at a time and they seal them any way I want them. I
                would like to get some smaller size tubing to play
                with but don't want to buy a whole roll. I have some
                4"/ 2mil that I have thought about using for a "Top"
                Down quilt type thing but decide it might be better to
                keep it all the same size. No reason your 4" stuff
                shouldn't work for a test DAM if the seal will hold
                air. Go for it. Bill in Texas


                - Matthew Takeda <takeda@...> wrote:

                > Bill Fornshell wrote:
                > >The Poly Tubing is used for bags to pack small
                > things
                > >in for sale or shipping. It comes in lots of sizes
                > >from 1" to 48"s.
                >
                > I have some 4 mil 4" flat poly tubing that I use for
                > packing small items.
                > It's twice as heavy and a little narrower than what
                > Bill is using for his
                > DAM. I've been thinking about trying it out as
                > mattress material, but
                > haven't done anything about it yet. I never have
                > been able to justify
                > buying an impulse sealer, though. I use my Tilia
                > Foodsaver to make bags out
                > of it.
                >
                > Matthew Takeda
                > the JOAT
                >
                >




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              • Matthew Takeda
                ... I still had the message where you said what thickness you were getting. ... I ve used it to package small items and had no problems, but I haven t had a
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 13, 2004
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                  Bill Fornshell wrote:
                  >Hi Matthew, I said a long time ago that I was using 2
                  >mil stuff but not sure if I mentioned it lately.

                  I still had the message where you said what thickness you were getting.

                  >... How well does the Foodsaver
                  >seal your bags? I was asked by someone if I thought
                  >something like would work for what I am doing but I
                  >had no idea. I looked at the sealer like is used by
                  >the person here where I get mine made and they cost
                  >about $60.

                  I've used it to package small items and had no problems, but I haven't had
                  a need to see if the seal will hold under the kind of pressure an air
                  mattress needs to withstand. I don't think it would be a problem, but I'd
                  probably put two seals right next to each other as insurance. I'll give it
                  a try and report back next week (busy at the moment).

                  >... I have some
                  >4"/ 2mil that I have thought about using for a "Top"
                  >Down quilt type thing but decide it might be better to
                  >keep it all the same size.

                  Since the whole idea of the poly tubes was to maintain loft under your body
                  weight, eliminating cold spots, I'm not sure why you would need or want
                  them on top of you. Regular quilts work fine for that.

                  >No reason your 4" stuff
                  >shouldn't work for a test DAM if the seal will hold
                  >air. Go for it.

                  Yeah, I just need to find time to do all of these things ...

                  Matthew Takeda
                  the JOAT
                • Bill Fornshell
                  Hi Matthew, That sentence about the mil size of my Poly Tubing didn t really come out the way I wanted it to. When I got the message and read it back it
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 13, 2004
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                    Hi Matthew, That sentence about the mil size of my
                    Poly Tubing didn't really come out the way I wanted it
                    to. When I got the message and read it back it looked
                    like I was criticizing what you had said. What I
                    meant was the other day when I was writing about this
                    I had forgotten to mention that the Poly Tube was 2
                    mil. The group grows so fast that I try to provide
                    complete information each time I write about this.
                    This is so new members know as much as they might need
                    to visualize what ever I am trying to say. When you
                    mentioned your Poly Tubing was 4 mil I though "I
                    forgot to include the mil size" of what I was using.
                    Anyway I am sorry if it didn't sound friendly.

                    Your question about me thinking about also using the
                    Poly Tubing for the "Top" part. The Poly Tubing is so
                    light and it makes the Down Baffle slide into or out
                    of the shell material real easy plus it would help
                    keep it dry in a lot of rain or wet snow. It may as a
                    side benifit act like a Vapor Barrier. One of my
                    ideas is to be able to add or remove Down baffles as
                    the weather might require. The Poly Tubing would make
                    this easier. I also have thought about blowing air in
                    the top part thinking this might help eliminate
                    possible cold spots.

                    Once I have a setup completely finished and have a
                    chance to test it outside in some "real cold" weather
                    conditions I may find some of my ideas don't work.
                    That is OK as long as one of them does.

                    For cold to very cold weather "0" my ultimate goal is
                    a Speer style Hammock that looks a little like a
                    sleeping bag that is turned into a Hammock The
                    sleeves for the Down filled Poly Tubes would be a part
                    of the Hammock body. This will reduce extra material
                    and save me a little weight. Then the top or quilt
                    part would attach to one side of the Hammock body from
                    end to end and the other side about 3/4's of the way.
                    This will all use 800+ Down as the primary insulation.
                    I may be able to get some 900 Down. By keeping the
                    Poly Tubes I can add extra insulation (maybe synthetic
                    such as Polarguard Delta) if I find cold spots. To
                    reduce the amount of material used I will try and
                    streamline the shape. At this point I expect it to
                    take on the appearance of the current "pod" looking
                    systems. The outer shell material top and bottom may
                    be something such as Pertex Quantum 0.89oz per square
                    yard. This material is ultralight, highly breathable
                    (drowproof ripstop nylon with DWR).

                    If I can make the trip to Maine In Feb 2005 I have
                    about 4 months to get one or more versions of this
                    done.

                    I am open to suggestion that follow the basic design
                    scheme.

                    Bill in Texas



                    --- Matthew Takeda <takeda@...> wrote:

                    > Bill Fornshell wrote:
                    > >Hi Matthew, I said a long time ago that I was
                    > using 2
                    > >mil stuff but not sure if I mentioned it lately.
                    >
                    > I still had the message where you said what
                    > thickness you were getting.
                    >
                    > >... How well does the Foodsaver
                    > >seal your bags? I was asked by someone if I
                    > thought
                    > >something like would work for what I am doing but I
                    > >had no idea. I looked at the sealer like is used
                    > by
                    > >the person here where I get mine made and they cost
                    > >about $60.
                    >
                    > I've used it to package small items and had no
                    > problems, but I haven't had
                    > a need to see if the seal will hold under the kind
                    > of pressure an air
                    > mattress needs to withstand. I don't think it would
                    > be a problem, but I'd
                    > probably put two seals right next to each other as
                    > insurance. I'll give it
                    > a try and report back next week (busy at the
                    > moment).
                    >
                    > >... I have some
                    > >4"/ 2mil that I have thought about using for a
                    > "Top"
                    > >Down quilt type thing but decide it might be better
                    > to
                    > >keep it all the same size.
                    >
                    > Since the whole idea of the poly tubes was to
                    > maintain loft under your body
                    > weight, eliminating cold spots, I'm not sure why you
                    > would need or want
                    > them on top of you. Regular quilts work fine for
                    > that.
                    >
                    > >No reason your 4" stuff
                    > >shouldn't work for a test DAM if the seal will hold
                    > >air. Go for it.
                    >
                    > Yeah, I just need to find time to do all of these
                    > things ...
                    >
                    > Matthew Takeda
                    > the JOAT
                    >
                    >




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                  • jwj32542
                    ... Not sure I d attach the top to the hammock, as this would create more air pockets that your body would be forced to heat. Wouldn t it be more efficient if
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 13, 2004
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                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Bill Fornshell
                      <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
                      > Then the top or quilt
                      > part would attach to one side of the Hammock body from
                      > end to end and the other side about 3/4's of the way.

                      Not sure I'd attach the top to the hammock, as this would create
                      more air pockets that your body would be forced to heat. Wouldn't
                      it be more efficient if you could tuck a quilt down beside you?

                      Plus it would be easier to regulate heat and easier to get in and
                      out.

                      Sounds like a great setup...keep us posted when you test it!

                      Jeff
                    • Bill Fornshell
                      Hi Jeff, The insulated Top part will lay on you like the top of a sleeping bag would. A better way to think about it might be as a Floating Sleeping bag. I
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 13, 2004
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                        Hi Jeff, The insulated Top part will lay on you like
                        the top of a sleeping bag would. A better way to think
                        about it might be as a Floating Sleeping bag. I hope
                        to use some .20oz spinnaker sail material
                        (waterproof/strong stuff) for a really light [2oz
                        maybe 3oz] large Cat type Tarp. This is my October
                        surprise I hope. Samples in the mail to me as we
                        speak. Brian do you read this? Bill

                        --- jwj32542 <jwj32542@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Bill
                        > Fornshell
                        > <bfornshell@y...> wrote:
                        > > Then the top or quilt
                        > > part would attach to one side of the Hammock body
                        > from
                        > > end to end and the other side about 3/4's of the
                        > way.
                        >
                        > Not sure I'd attach the top to the hammock, as this
                        > would create
                        > more air pockets that your body would be forced to
                        > heat. Wouldn't
                        > it be more efficient if you could tuck a quilt down
                        > beside you?
                        >
                        > Plus it would be easier to regulate heat and easier
                        > to get in and
                        > out.
                        >
                        > Sounds like a great setup...keep us posted when you
                        > test it!
                        >
                        > Jeff
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • Paul Kaercher
                        Bill I ve been following your poly tube DAM development with great interest. Thank you for sharing your ideas & progress with us. I use a 27in. wide Target
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 15, 2004
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                          Bill'
                          I've been following your poly tube DAM development with great interest.
                          Thank you for sharing your ideas & progress with us.
                          I use a 27in. wide Target blue foam pad and find I need every inch of width
                          to prevent cold spots on the sides due to the hammock cocooning around me
                          and compressing the quilt's insulation.

                          It appears that your 5 tube DAM is narrower and I was wondering if the hight
                          of your DAM raises your body off the bottom of the hammock so that the hammock
                          sides don't cause compressive cold spots?
                          If cold sides are problem, a 6 or 7 tube DAM could be used, and the additional
                          weight of such a DAM would be partially offset by being able to use a correspondingly
                          narrower top quilt/blanket.

                          You stated that:
                          "Then the top or quilt part would attach to one side of the Hammock body
                          from end to end and the other side about 3/4's of the way. "

                          Jeff replied:
                          " Not sure I'd attach the top to the hammock, as this would create
                          more air pockets that your body would be forced to
                          heat. Wouldn't it be more efficient if you could tuck a quilt down
                          beside you?"

                          You replied:
                          "The insulated Top part will lay on you like
                          the top of a sleeping bag would. A better way to think
                          about it might be as a Floating Sleeping bag."

                          I think that if you use a Poly Tube DAM as a floating sleeping bag
                          with your 5 tube bottom DAM, you may find that tucking
                          the top DAM around you will not work well. I suspect (and you may have already
                          considered this) that in moving around, the top DAM will work it's way up and out
                          from being tucked in at the sides.

                          One way to "lock" the top and bottom DAMs together would be as followes:
                          Suppose(for the sake of this explanation) that your top & bottom DAMs are each made of 5
                          tubes. Number the tubes
                          1 thru 5. If you slide out the poly tube and down filled silk tube from sleve #2 of the top
                          and bottom DAM, you can overlap (lock) the top and bottom together.
                          The poly tube in sleve #1 of the top blanket will "Lock" into the empty #2 sleve space of
                          the bottom DAM and vise versa. Think of it as a quasi zip-lock. ( this should work even if
                          the top blanket made of down filled silk tubes (no Poly tube). Just use a poly tube
                          in sleve #1 to lock it in with the bottom DAM)
                          The down side of this would be the weight of the additional fabric used, but
                          it may be worth it for its simplicity of use and continuous connection.

                          I have not come up with how to deal with closing off the foot end.
                          I'd like to hear ideas from others.

                          Paul
                        • Bill Fornshell
                          Hi Paul, I appreciate your input. I got a nice surprise early this morning. I woke up COLD, ok cool. We are having a few days of weather that hasn t been
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 15, 2004
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                            Hi Paul, I appreciate your input. I got a nice
                            surprise early this morning. I woke up COLD, ok cool.
                            We are having a few days of weather that hasn't been
                            this cool (low of a little less than 50 degrees)
                            since last April. I got out my WM Might-lite sleeping
                            bag. It opens flat and I threw it on my bed. I am
                            now sitting here in my Patagonia silk weight bottoms
                            and a Icebreaker Merino Wool full-zip light jacket
                            type garment. It was a short neck zipped pull over.
                            I had a 26" (2 - way separating zipper put on it). I
                            like it much better this way.

                            I am going to hang my hammock later today and get
                            ready for tonight. One problem I have here in San
                            Antonio is we don't really get much cold weather.
                            Some ideas don't get much of a test. Testing for Cold
                            Spots being one of them. I will make a list of some
                            of your concerns about cold spots, height of DAM in
                            Hammock and others and come up with a rudimentary test
                            plan.

                            It is hard to verbalize some of what I want to try. I
                            can build it easier than I can explain it. That why I
                            take a lot of pictures of what I am doing. I however
                            don't have any secrets and at best I offer it for
                            those that might want to make their own version or
                            have ideas that might help me improve this one. More
                            brains at work, faster success. The nice thing about
                            the folks in this group is the sharing nature of them
                            all.

                            When I made the baffles for this DAM I made 6 of them
                            so the next DAM will be wider. I left some extra
                            material on one side of the first shell so I can make
                            the width wider without much trouble.

                            I expect to do a lot of "cut and paste" modifications
                            as I work out the bugs.

                            My comment about "Floating Sleeping Bag" might be
                            easier to visualize as a DAM of 12 or so tubes. Fold
                            it over like a piece of paper. Then sew the foot end
                            closed. I thought this would help with cold spot
                            problems. I will play with your ideas and see if I
                            might be able to mesh them in with mine or use some of
                            your ideas as a departure point for improving the
                            total package. My fall back to cold spots will be to
                            sew in a patch or a strip of Polarguard Delta
                            insulation if necessary. What I have is 3/4" and is
                            rated at 1.8oz per square yard. I hope to amaze myself
                            when I am done with the very light weight of all this.

                            For now, I am not real concerned about fabric weight
                            just getting a good working prototype. I can get silk
                            as light as .40oz per square yard for the baffle
                            material and maybe even use it for the DAM shell. I
                            expect to use some Pertex Quantam that is .89/.90oz
                            per square yard for the outer covering. The total
                            weight of this will be a factor of the bottom
                            temperature expected. The colder the more insulation
                            necessary. That is one reason I have stuck with the
                            removable baffle idea. Something that will keep me
                            warm at say "0" will weigh more than something
                            necessary to keep me warm at say " 30" degrees etc.
                            Somewhere I saw a chart with that information on it.
                            How much Down loft = low temperature or something
                            like that.

                            Thanks again for your thoughts and ideas. It is very
                            clear that you have put some time into thinking about
                            all this and I do appreciate it.

                            Bill in Texas

                            I like your suggestions --- Paul Kaercher
                            <yomas_1@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > Bill'
                            > I've been following your poly tube DAM development
                            > with great interest.
                            > Thank you for sharing your ideas & progress with us.
                            > I use a 27in. wide Target blue foam pad and find I
                            > need every inch of width
                            > to prevent cold spots on the sides due to the
                            > hammock cocooning around me
                            > and compressing the quilt's insulation.
                            >
                            > It appears that your 5 tube DAM is narrower and I
                            > was wondering if the hight
                            > of your DAM raises your body off the bottom of the
                            > hammock so that the hammock
                            > sides don't cause compressive cold spots?
                            > If cold sides are problem, a 6 or 7 tube DAM could
                            > be used, and the additional
                            > weight of such a DAM would be partially offset by
                            > being able to use a correspondingly
                            > narrower top quilt/blanket.
                            >
                            > You stated that:
                            > "Then the top or quilt part would attach to one side
                            > of the Hammock body
                            > from end to end and the other side about 3/4's of
                            > the way. "
                            >
                            > Jeff replied:
                            > " Not sure I'd attach the top to the hammock, as
                            > this would create
                            > more air pockets that your body would be forced to
                            > heat. Wouldn't it be more efficient if you could
                            > tuck a quilt down
                            > beside you?"
                            >
                            > You replied:
                            > "The insulated Top part will lay on you like
                            > the top of a sleeping bag would. A better way to
                            > think
                            > about it might be as a Floating Sleeping bag."
                            >
                            > I think that if you use a Poly Tube DAM as a
                            > floating sleeping bag
                            > with your 5 tube bottom DAM, you may find that
                            > tucking
                            > the top DAM around you will not work well. I suspect
                            > (and you may have already
                            > considered this) that in moving around, the top DAM
                            > will work it's way up and out
                            > from being tucked in at the sides.
                            >
                            > One way to "lock" the top and bottom DAMs together
                            > would be as followes:
                            > Suppose(for the sake of this explanation) that your
                            > top & bottom DAMs are each made of 5
                            > tubes. Number the tubes
                            > 1 thru 5. If you slide out the poly tube and down
                            > filled silk tube from sleve #2 of the top
                            > and bottom DAM, you can overlap (lock) the top and
                            > bottom together.
                            > The poly tube in sleve #1 of the top blanket will
                            > "Lock" into the empty #2 sleve space of
                            > the bottom DAM and vise versa. Think of it as a
                            > quasi zip-lock. ( this should work even if
                            > the top blanket made of down filled silk tubes (no
                            > Poly tube). Just use a poly tube
                            > in sleve #1 to lock it in with the bottom DAM)
                            > The down side of this would be the weight of the
                            > additional fabric used, but
                            > it may be worth it for its simplicity of use and
                            > continuous connection.
                            >
                            > I have not come up with how to deal with closing off
                            > the foot end.
                            > I'd like to hear ideas from others.
                            >
                            > Paul
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >




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                          • Matthew Takeda
                            ... I didn t take it that way. (^_^) ... Actually, I don t think you mentioned it in this group. The message I referenced was in the MakeGear group. ...
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 16, 2004
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                              Bill Fornshell wrote:
                              >Hi Matthew, That sentence about the mil size of my
                              >Poly Tubing didn't really come out the way I wanted it
                              >to. When I got the message and read it back it looked
                              >like I was criticizing what you had said.

                              I didn't take it that way. (^_^)

                              >... What I
                              >meant was the other day when I was writing about this
                              >I had forgotten to mention that the Poly Tube was 2
                              >mil. The group grows so fast that I try to provide
                              >complete information each time I write about this.

                              Actually, I don't think you mentioned it in this group. The message I
                              referenced was in the MakeGear group.

                              >Your question about me thinking about also using the
                              >Poly Tubing for the "Top" part. The Poly Tubing is so
                              >light and it makes the Down Baffle slide into or out
                              >of the shell material real easy plus it would help
                              >keep it dry in a lot of rain or wet snow. It may as a
                              >side benifit act like a Vapor Barrier.

                              How are you inflating it? If by mouth, then you're introducing moisture
                              into the insulation.

                              >... I also have thought about blowing air in
                              >the top part thinking this might help eliminate
                              >possible cold spots.

                              Would make the top stiff. Instead of tucking snugly around your body, it
                              would leave large air spaces between you and the insulation.

                              So far, I haven't had any problem with bottom insulation in my hammock, so
                              I'm mostly interested in this as a lightweight solution for when I have to
                              resort to sleeping on the ground.

                              I tried making a tube and inflating it tonight, using the foodsaver to seal
                              it. It worked fine. I sealed one end straight across, and the other end at
                              an angle. Then, I cut off the tip of the angled part, giving me an opening
                              about 1/2" wide. Pretty easily inflated by inserting a drinking straw, and
                              the area that needs to be clamped is a lot narrower. Probably wouldn't work
                              for you, since it sounds like you want to be able to take the down tube out
                              at any time. I put quite a bit of pressure on it and the seals didn't leak,
                              so I guess I'll stick with using the foodsaver.

                              Seems to me I've seen plastic bag packing material that uses an internal
                              flap as a valve to keep the bag sealed when inflated. The internal pressure
                              keeps the flap pressed against the opening. A tube can be inserted past the
                              flap to inflate or deflate it. Maybe I can do something like that and
                              eliminate the clamps. Gotta see if I can dig up one of those bags to see
                              how the flap works.

                              Matthew Takeda
                              the JOAT
                            • Bill Fornshell
                              Matthew has the bug. I have a small balloon pump (2.7oz) that I use sometime. You need to seal 5 or 6 tubes and then make a shell out of almost anything and
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 16, 2004
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                                Matthew has the bug. I have a small balloon pump
                                (2.7oz) that I use sometime. You need to seal 5 or 6
                                tubes and then make a shell out of almost anything
                                and test it.

                                I went Friday night and bought 12 new 5" tubes. He
                                sealed one end, double for me. He also sealed them on
                                an angle IxI with an overlap at the tip. He did
                                that twice. (if this isn't clear and anyone needs a
                                better idea of what I am trying to say I can take a
                                picture or make a drawing).

                                The Temperature this morning at 0445 was only 51
                                degrees. The area under my trees showed 45 degrees
                                but I will say 51 degrees. I blew up the 5 Poly
                                Tubes. I had left them in the DAM shell so getting it
                                ready to use was easy. I went outside about 0500,
                                still 51 degrees. I put the DAM in the hammock. I
                                decided to get in the hammock with just the DAM for
                                awhile. I wanted to see how the DAM and I fit and how
                                much distance there was from the top edge of the DAM
                                and the top edge of the hammock. My hammock is a
                                Speer Style. You might can it an Ed Speer
                                experiment. Last summer (2003) I asked Ed if he would
                                make me a hammock out of silk if I could get the silk.
                                He said he would give it a try. I got enough silk
                                for the hammock but it was only 54" wide. I also
                                sent light silk mesh for the bug net. The hammock Ed
                                made me has turned to be more durable than I expect he
                                may have though at the time. The hammock is 1.02oz
                                per square silk and Ed was cautious about it strength.
                                For my weight (165/175) today about 168 pounds and 6'
                                tall it has proven to be great. At first I was
                                careful getting in an out but soon realized that any
                                extra caution really wasn't necessary. Using the 54"
                                wide silk might made the hammock seem narrow. I
                                don't know if Ed hems the sides of the hammock where
                                he sews on the Velcro. This would reduce the width a
                                little more. The width seems fine for me. Laying on
                                the 5 tube DAM the outer edge Tubes roll up along
                                side my legs a little. It is enough to cradle me some
                                but not much. My first thought was 7 tubes might work
                                better. That way I lay into the DAM and the top edge
                                of the DAM would be almost to the top edge of the
                                sides of the hammock. Adding more Poly Tubes might
                                make the transition between the Top Quilt/Whatever and
                                the DAM easier/warmer. Some of Matthews overlap idea
                                might come into play here. The temperature between my
                                butt area and the DAM came up to 71 degrees quick.

                                I went in the house and got my Western Mountaineering
                                Might-lite Down Sleeping bag. I really like this bag
                                as it will open flat like a quilt if you want to use
                                it that way. It is rated at 40 degrees and weighs
                                26oz. I zipped the foot end up and zipped the sides
                                about 1/4 the way to the head end. I put it in on top
                                of the DAM and got into the hammock. I had on a pair
                                of Patagonia silk weight bottoms, a cotton t-shirt and
                                my Icebreaker light jacket thing. I also wore a thin
                                fleece thing on my head but not over my ears.

                                The temperature in the sleeping bag came up fast. It
                                leveled out at 86 degrees at the toe end of the bag,
                                89 to 91 degrees through my middle both above and
                                below. With the DAM at this temperature I was in a
                                way over-kill situation.

                                The tempreture inside at my butt are was 91 degrees,
                                next to the hammock outside under my butt area was 71
                                degrees. The outside temperature was still 51
                                degrees. I don't know if I can make anything from that
                                20 degree difference. Someone out there may have that
                                answer??? It is now about 0630.

                                What is next: I am going to add 2 more Poly Tubes to
                                the DAM. Using Matthews thoughts on how I might
                                connect the two parts I will add some material on the
                                sleeve line between the 1st and 2nd tubes from each
                                edge that will creat a door hinge look. If you have
                                ever removed a door from its hinges you should
                                understand how the connection might work. The Poly
                                Tube will act like the hinge pin and connect the top
                                part to the DAM on both sides. This should create a
                                good seal as the connection Poly Tubes will connect in
                                the valley between the other Tubes, I hope. I might
                                even be able to close off the foot end using something
                                simular to this. If this works or something close I
                                will start thinking about how I want the outer cover
                                to look.

                                Sorry I took a nap and just woke back up. This cooler
                                weather is so nice to sleep out in.

                                Bill in Texas






                                Matthew Takeda <takeda@...> wrote:

                                > Bill Fornshell wrote:
                                > >Hi Matthew, That sentence about the mil size of my
                                > >Poly Tubing didn't really come out the way I wanted
                                > it
                                > >to. When I got the message and read it back it
                                > looked
                                > >like I was criticizing what you had said.
                                >
                                > I didn't take it that way. (^_^)
                                >
                                > >... What I
                                > >meant was the other day when I was writing about
                                > this
                                > >I had forgotten to mention that the Poly Tube was 2
                                > >mil. The group grows so fast that I try to provide
                                > >complete information each time I write about this.
                                >
                                > Actually, I don't think you mentioned it in this
                                > group. The message I
                                > referenced was in the MakeGear group.
                                >
                                > >Your question about me thinking about also using
                                > the
                                > >Poly Tubing for the "Top" part. The Poly Tubing is
                                > so
                                > >light and it makes the Down Baffle slide into or
                                > out
                                > >of the shell material real easy plus it would help
                                > >keep it dry in a lot of rain or wet snow. It may
                                > as a
                                > >side benifit act like a Vapor Barrier.
                                >
                                > How are you inflating it? If by mouth, then you're
                                > introducing moisture
                                > into the insulation.
                                >
                                > >... I also have thought about blowing air in
                                > >the top part thinking this might help eliminate
                                > >possible cold spots.
                                >
                                > Would make the top stiff. Instead of tucking snugly
                                > around your body, it
                                > would leave large air spaces between you and the
                                > insulation.
                                >
                                > So far, I haven't had any problem with bottom
                                > insulation in my hammock, so
                                > I'm mostly interested in this as a lightweight
                                > solution for when I have to
                                > resort to sleeping on the ground.
                                >
                                > I tried making a tube and inflating it tonight,
                                > using the foodsaver to seal
                                > it. It worked fine. I sealed one end straight
                                > across, and the other end at
                                > an angle. Then, I cut off the tip of the angled
                                > part, giving me an opening
                                > about 1/2" wide. Pretty easily inflated by inserting
                                > a drinking straw, and
                                > the area that needs to be clamped is a lot narrower.
                                > Probably wouldn't work
                                > for you, since it sounds like you want to be able to
                                > take the down tube out
                                > at any time. I put quite a bit of pressure on it and
                                > the seals didn't leak,
                                > so I guess I'll stick with using the foodsaver.
                                >
                                > Seems to me I've seen plastic bag packing material
                                > that uses an internal
                                > flap as a valve to keep the bag sealed when
                                > inflated. The internal pressure
                                > keeps the flap pressed against the opening. A tube
                                > can be inserted past the
                                > flap to inflate or deflate it. Maybe I can do
                                > something like that and
                                > eliminate the clamps. Gotta see if I can dig up one
                                > of those bags to see
                                > how the flap works.
                                >
                                > Matthew Takeda
                                > the JOAT
                                >
                                >





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                              • Bill Fornshell
                                I finished my DAM ver 2 this afternoon (photo album - A DAM ver 2). It is more or less as I wrote in the following email. It is in my Hammock now and I have
                                Message 15 of 15 , Oct 17, 2004
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                                  I finished my DAM ver 2 this afternoon (photo album -
                                  A DAM ver 2). It is more or less as I wrote in the
                                  following email. It is in my Hammock now and I have
                                  just gotten out of and have taken a few pictures. It
                                  is 80 degrees here today so I didn't put the Down
                                  baffles in it. I am going to play with the length of
                                  the Poly Tubes in the center of the shell and see If
                                  that helps with the fit.

                                  I found a chart that tells how much loft (Down) you
                                  need for a given temperature, It says I need 4" of
                                  loft for "0" degrees. The Poly Tubes give me 3-1/2"
                                  of loft so that is close. My quilt/sleeping bag ???
                                  what ever I call it will be pretty thick. I don't
                                  have much space to cover using the new DAM so It will
                                  not be very big. I am going to get back in the
                                  hammock later and make some rough measurements so I
                                  can make a pattern.

                                  Bill in Texas

                                  > I went Friday night and bought 12 new 5" tubes. He
                                  > sealed one end, double for me. He also sealed them
                                  > on an angle IxI with an overlap at the tip. He
                                  did
                                  > that twice. (if this isn't clear and anyone needs a
                                  > better idea of what I am trying to say I can take a
                                  > picture or make a drawing).

                                  > What is next: I am going to add 2 more Poly Tubes
                                  > to the DAM. Using Matthews thoughts on how I might
                                  > connect the two parts I will add some material on
                                  > the sleeve line between the 1st and 2nd tubes from
                                  each
                                  > edge that will create a door hinge look. If you
                                  have
                                  > ever removed a door from its hinges you should
                                  > understand how the connection might work. The Poly
                                  > Tube will act like the hinge pin and connect the top
                                  > part to the DAM on both sides. This should create a
                                  > good seal as the connection Poly Tubes will connect
                                  > in the valley between the other Tubes, I hope. I
                                  might
                                  > even be able to close off the foot end using
                                  > something similar to this. If this works or
                                  something close I
                                  > will start thinking about how I want the outer cover
                                  > to look.


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