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[Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock

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  • Dave Womble
    ... side ... How so? Don t the pullouts on the HH asym hammocks create the asymmetrical shape that gives these hammocks their name? Youngblood
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Shane" <shane@t...> wrote:
      > > I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one folds
      > > the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the position of
      > > side pullouts.
      >
      > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth. Just moving the
      side
      > pullouts isn't the same thing.
      >
      > Shane

      How so? Don't the pullouts on the HH asym hammocks create the
      asymmetrical shape that gives these hammocks their name?

      Youngblood
    • Dave Womble
      ... Bear, agreed. But I haven t swung by repetively and synchronized shifting of my center of gravity since I was a few years younger on the school ground
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "David Chinell"
        <dchinell@m...> wrote:
        > Dave:
        >
        > You can rock yourself if you bend one leg, point
        > the knee skyward, then move the knee left to
        > right. It almost feels like you're pushing your
        > thigh against one side of the hammock, but of
        > course, you're not. It's changing the center of
        > gravity that's doing the rocking.
        >
        > Bear

        Bear, agreed. But I haven't swung by repetively and synchronized
        shifting of my center of gravity since I was a few years younger on
        the school ground swing set. Its a skill I'm a little rusty at.

        Dave
      • Jerry Goller
        It also has to do with the characteristics of the fabric weave. It stretches more in one direction than the other. Jerry
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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          Message
          It also has to do with the characteristics of the fabric weave. It stretches more in one direction than the other.
          Jerry
           
           

          http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dave Womble [mailto:dpwomble@...]
          Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 3:48 PM
          To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock


          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Shane" <shane@t...> wrote:
          > > I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one folds
          > > the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the position of
          > > side pullouts.
          >
          > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth.  Just moving the
          side
          > pullouts isn't the same thing.
          >
          > Shane

          How so?  Don't the pullouts on the HH asym hammocks create the
          asymmetrical shape that gives these hammocks their name? 

          Youngblood




        • Jerry Goller
          Me, too...lol. And it is interesting that most of the negatives that you see in an asym, I see as positives. That s why we have more than one design and more
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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            Message
            Me, too...lol. And it is interesting that most of the negatives that you see in an asym, I see as positives. That's why we have more than one design and more than one manufacturer....   ;o)
            I also use mine almost exclusively in the mountains.
            Jerry
             
             

            http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dave Womble [mailto:dpwomble@...]
            Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 2:28 PM
            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock



            But these are just my opinions and we all are entitled to our own. 
            Obviously, many people genuinely like the asymmetrical design.  I
            think it is great that we have these choices.

            Youngblood


          • Dave Womble
            Jerry, I am somewhat familiar with the stretch characteristics of woven fabric, to the extent that I understand that it stretches most on its bias and least on
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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              Jerry,

              I am somewhat familiar with the stretch characteristics of woven
              fabric, to the extent that I understand that it stretches most on its
              bias and least on its warp. I believe the center line of the hammock
              bed is on the warp of the fabric and the weft is orthogonal (or 90
              degrees) to the warp with the bias being at a 45 degree angle to both
              the warp and the weft. And I can understand how that effects the
              feel or lay of the hammock if you lay on a diagonal to the center
              line of the hammock versus laying on the center line of the hammock.

              What I don't understand is Shane's or even your comment to my
              statement.

              I said: "I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one
              folds the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the position
              of side pullouts."

              Shane replied with: "Actually it has to do with the bias of the
              cloth. Just moving the side pullouts isn't the same thing."

              Jerry, you replied with: "It also has to do with the characteristics
              of the fabric weave. It stretches more in one direction than the
              other."

              I don't understand the comment, are we talking about the same think,
              the asym shape or are we talking about the lay of the hammock? I
              think one or some combination of us is confusing one thing with
              another. <grin>

              Youngblood
            • Shane Steinkamp
              ... Yeah... That s what bias means... Shane
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                > > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth.

                > It also has to do with the characteristics of the fabric weave. It
                > stretches more in one direction than the other.

                Yeah... That's what bias means...

                Shane
              • Shane Steinkamp
                ... Looking at it, you might assume so, but I don t use the pullouts and my hammock is still asymmetrical. Folks who don t sew their own clothes rarely
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                  > > > I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one
                  > > > folds the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the
                  > > > position of side pullouts.
                  > >
                  > > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth. Just moving the
                  > > side pullouts isn't the same thing.
                  >
                  > How so? Don't the pullouts on the HH asym hammocks create the
                  > asymmetrical shape that gives these hammocks their name?

                  Looking at it, you might assume so, but I don't use the pullouts and my
                  hammock is still asymmetrical. Folks who don't sew their own clothes rarely
                  understand, much less know about, fabric bias.

                  Essentially all fabric comes on a bolt. The nylon cloths used to make
                  hammocks is no different. You can't just cut a suit of clothes out of a
                  piece of fabric willy-nilly. You have to appreciate the bias of the cloth
                  so that the finished clothes hang right. Fabric has a weave. This weave
                  stretches very little across the grain in either direction, but along the
                  bias - 45 degrees off straight grain - there is a much greater stretch.

                  An asymmetrical hammock uses this to an advantage. It is NOT the same as
                  simply laying in a non-asym hammock at an angle. What's the difference?

                  Well, think about a piece of fabric that you're going to make a hammock out
                  of. Let's say that it's 4 by 8 feet. If we gather the small ends and tie
                  our ropes, this is a symmetrical hammock. The fabric will stretch very
                  little. The 'lay' of the hammock will be somewhere around six feet, and
                  will probably be comfortable. Instead of tying at the narrow ends, think
                  about tying at opposite corners. Now you have an asymmetrical hammock. The
                  'lay' of this hammock - made from the same size piece as the first one -
                  will be very nearly 8 feet or maybe a little more, and the 'lay' will be
                  MUCH flatter.

                  Of course, you can't just tie two corners like that... You have to cut the
                  piece in such a way that you can tie enough of it so that you get enough of
                  it tied into the rope so that it's strong enough. Tom doesn't actually have
                  this quite right. I think he's found a balance between weight and lay. If
                  he used a bit more material, the asym hammocks could be a little flatter.
                  The bug netting also has something to do with it, I think, but I haven't cut
                  one apart to actually see what his cut lines are. I built my first
                  asymmetrical hammock in about 1993 and it took me a few tries to figure it
                  out. Tom's design is solid.

                  None of this is to say that there's anything wrong with a non-asym hammock
                  that hangs along the fabric grain. I just think that it's important to
                  appreciate that there is a real difference in the two methods - and it has
                  nothing to do with the placement of the tieouts.

                  Shane
                • Shane Steinkamp
                  ... I can rock in my asym. Why shouldn t I be able to? ... Simply don t tie them. I never tie the pullouts... ... I use a 27 pad, and with the asym design,
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                    > Without the associated side pullouts currently used to form an
                    > asymmetrical shape, I can gently rock in my hammock.

                    I can rock in my asym. Why shouldn't I be able to?

                    > I think the side pullouts used with the current asymmetrical
                    > hammocks are somewhat problematic for a side entry hammock and that
                    > is my preferred entry method.

                    Simply don't tie them. I never tie the pullouts...

                    > In my experience, the bottom entry method is
                    > more difficult to deal with when you need bottom side insulation and
                    > I usually need something for bottom side insulation since I mostly
                    > hammock camp in the mountains where night time temperatures require
                    > at least some insulation.

                    I use a 27" pad, and with the asym design, the edge of the pad is right at
                    the base of the slit. This is perfect. I sit on the pad right where I need
                    to be. The slit is never an issue. It IS an issue in a non-asym hammock if
                    there is a bottom slit.

                    > There is not anything preventing a person from laying diagonal in a
                    > well designed hammock that doesn't have an asymmetrical shape.

                    But it's NOT the same thing.

                    > I
                    > can lay diagonal to the left, diagonal to the right or right down
                    > the enter axis of my hammocks.

                    I can lay diagonal to the left, and I can lay down the center. I usually do
                    when I'm reading. I can't lay diagonal to the right. I thought that this
                    might be a problem at first because most of my life I slept diagonal to the
                    right, but I quickly got used to laying left.

                    > I find that laying on a diagonal sometimes results in a slight
                    > discomfort to the shoulders that I refer to as `shoulder squeeze'.

                    This is not an issue in an asym hammock.

                    > I found that I am sometimes more comfortable lying down the center
                    > axis of the hammock and primarily
                    > just shifting my feet and legs either to the left or right until I
                    > find my sweet spot. I think the asymmetrical design encourages one
                    > to lay on a more severe diagonal and to one particular side, I like
                    > the freedom to pick the side if I choose to lay on a diagonal.

                    There is a lot of play in it. This is your preference, and that's fair
                    enough.

                    > But these are just my opinions and we all are entitled to our own.
                    > Obviously, many people genuinely like the asymmetrical design. I
                    > think it is great that we have these choices.

                    Agreed, but some of the above forces me to ask a rude question. Have you
                    ever actually TRIED an asym hammock? Hennessey or no?

                    Shane
                  • Jerry Goller
                    I know....I was agreeing with you. It *does* happen, from time to time...... ;o) Jerry http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                      I know....I was agreeing with you. It *does* happen, from time to time......   ;o)
                      Jerry
                       
                       

                      http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Shane Steinkamp [mailto:shane@...]
                      Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:29 PM
                      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock

                      > > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth.

                      > It also has to do with the characteristics of the fabric weave. It
                      > stretches more in one direction than the other.

                      Yeah...  That's what bias means...

                      Shane


                    • Shane
                      Message I know....I was agreeing with you. It *does* happen, from time to ... Ah. OK, then. I was caught off guard by that... ;) Shane
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                        Message> I know....I was agreeing with you. It *does* happen, from time to
                        > time...... ;o)

                        Ah. OK, then. I was caught off guard by that... ;)

                        Shane
                      • Dave Womble
                        Shane, Okay, I see what you meant. I didn t realize that the fabric for the hammock bed is oriented such that it is on a diagonal to the fabric weave, or like
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                          Shane,

                          Okay, I see what you meant. I didn't realize that the fabric for the
                          hammock bed is oriented such that it is on a diagonal to the fabric
                          weave, or like you said, on a bias of the cloth. Thanks for pointing
                          that out, that does mean that what I stated was not correct. I now
                          see that the side pullouts are positioned to 'compliment' the asym
                          nature of the hammock rather than 'causing' the asym nature.

                          Youngblood
                        • ptoddf@aol.com
                          Shane, Many thanks for your explanation of the bias cut for asym hammock design. I wasn t aware of this and it adds an important new dimension to my attempts
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                            Shane,
                             
                            Many thanks for your explanation of the bias cut for asym hammock design. I wasn't aware of this and it adds an important new dimension to my attempts using my test hammock. See post on my variation on this idea.
                             
                            I like the HH too, but I want to make a light, efficient open hammock, without net or other HH features that is as comfortable.
                             
                            Best, Todd in Tarzana.
                          • Dave Womble
                            ... wrote: ... Agreed, but some of the above forces me to ask a rude question. Have you ... Yes, I used one extensively on backpacking trips for about a year.
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp" <shane@t...>
                              wrote:
                              ...> Agreed, but some of the above forces me to ask a rude question.
                              Have you
                              > ever actually TRIED an asym hammock? Hennessey or no?
                              >
                              > Shane

                              Yes, I used one extensively on backpacking trips for about a year.
                              It was the Hennessy UtraLight Backpacker Asym, which was the first
                              asym model that came out and the only asym model available at the
                              time I purchased it.

                              I believe we had discussions previously where we disagreed on a
                              particular point and someone wisely pointed out that the hammock you
                              were using was larger that the one I had and that might be why we saw
                              details differently. I believe you use the Hennessy Explorer Deluxe
                              A-Sym, which is a bit larger than the one I used. That might again
                              explain some of the different opinions as well as the fact that I
                              used the side pullouts with mine and you apparently do not. But then
                              again, it is also possible that we see the same thing but judge it
                              differently... such is life.

                              Youngblood
                            • ptoddf@aol.com
                              On test hammocks, Risk has a great idea there. Thanks, Risk. Try this variation so you can try different gathers and bias ideas: Instead of an end knot, pass
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                On test hammocks, Risk has a great idea there. Thanks, Risk.
                                 
                                Try this variation so you can try different gathers and bias ideas:
                                 
                                Instead of an end knot, pass the gathered material on each end through a Home Depot welded steel ring, about 2" in diameter and 3/16" thick. Secure the material to itself with a split piece of black rubber hose and a standard stainless steel worm-gear hose clamp. Buy the hose, about 1 and 1/2 inch in diameter from the same store. You can buy 1 foot off the roll, cut this into about 2 1/2" segments and split them along oneside with a knife. Cut out 1/8" or so if the hose doesn't close tightly enough around the folded hammock end.
                                 
                                This allows you to clamp and unclamp in minutes.
                                 
                                WARNING!!! If this is not done right the material can slip through and you'll hit the ground! This happened to me the first time I tried it.
                                 
                                Make sure the clamp is very tight, don't hang the hammock very high, and put a lounge chair pad on the ground underneath just in case.
                                Better would be to sew a safety margin on the end of the material so it can't slip throught the clamp even if it slips. This is for design testing only!
                                 
                                I learned a huge amount from doing different folding and rolling schemes,  including off-axis rolls and folds. There's nothing like lying in a hammock real time to figure out what's going on, and this method makes it possible. Small changes have large, non-obvious results.
                                 
                                If this is not clear, speak up and I'll post pictures.
                                 
                                Best, Todd in Tarzana.
                              • zippydooda
                                So, can you tell us what you learned? Especially on the off axis stuff... Bill in Houston ... schemes, ... hammock real ... possible. Small
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                  So, can you tell us what you learned? Especially on the off axis
                                  stuff...

                                  Bill in Houston

                                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, ptoddf@a... wrote:
                                  > On test hammocks, Risk has a great idea there. Thanks, Risk.
                                  > <snip>
                                  > I learned a huge amount from doing different folding and rolling
                                  schemes,
                                  > including off-axis rolls and folds. There's nothing like lying in a
                                  hammock real
                                  > time to figure out what's going on, and this method makes it
                                  possible. Small
                                  > changes have large, non-obvious results.
                                  >
                                  > If this is not clear, speak up and I'll post pictures.
                                  >
                                  > Best, Todd in Tarzana.
                                • Amy Skowronek
                                  ... I ve used this model as well. I ve slept in it for about a month total. I used the older non-asym ultralight backpacker on the trail for about a month,
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                    On Oct 5, 2004, at 10:49 AM, Dave Womble wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp" <shane@t...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > ...> Agreed, but some of the above forces me to ask a rude question.
                                    > Have you
                                    >> ever actually TRIED an asym hammock? Hennessey or no?
                                    >>
                                    >> Shane
                                    >
                                    > Yes, I used one extensively on backpacking trips for about a year.
                                    > It was the Hennessy UtraLight Backpacker Asym, which was the first
                                    > asym model that came out and the only asym model available at the
                                    > time I purchased it.
                                    >
                                    >

                                    I've used this model as well. I've slept in it for about a month total.

                                    I used the older non-asym ultralight backpacker on the trail for about
                                    a month, too.
                                    The big difference to me was that when I rolled over in the asym I
                                    didn't
                                    need to switch diagonals. I almost always sleep with a pad in the
                                    hammock
                                    so switching diagonals is a pain. It didn't feel roomier to me. (But
                                    I'm 5'4",
                                    so I had plenty of room to start with.)

                                    -amy
                                  • Ray Garlington
                                    ... sewed ... This is similar to what I did, but I used a shape more like a parallelogram, like so: http://tinyurl.com/62zmc I kept the bias of the cloth
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "seuss910" <wrv77@y...> wrote:
                                      > Asymmetry was achieved with the cut of the hammock, not so much
                                      > with the fold. I started with a kind of squared off trapezoid,
                                      sewed
                                      > a soft webbing along the end hems for bulk, pleated the ends, and
                                      > then tied the hanging straps around the bunched ends.
                                      >

                                      This is similar to what I did, but I used a shape more like a
                                      parallelogram, like so: http://tinyurl.com/62zmc

                                      I kept the bias of the cloth aligned with the support points (i.e.
                                      centerline of the hammock), since you don't want any stretch in that
                                      dimension. I got a moderate asym feel with a 3" cut on each side.
                                      I'd be tempted to go to about 6" for the next try.
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