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[Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock

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  • Dave Womble
    Jerry, You asked about the tradeoffs I see with an asymmetrical hammock design. Without the associated side pullouts currently used to form an asymmetrical
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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      Jerry,

      You asked about the tradeoffs I see with an asymmetrical hammock
      design.

      Without the associated side pullouts currently used to form an
      asymmetrical shape, I can gently rock in my hammock. I find it
      soothing and it sometimes helps me sleep to reach down and either
      directly push off on the ground or use a pole to create a gentle
      rocking motion that lasts for a surprising long time. I think that
      side pullouts would make it difficult if not downright impossible to
      get this gentle rocking motion.

      I think the side pullouts used with the current asymmetrical hammocks
      are somewhat problematic for a side entry hammock and that is my
      preferred entry method. In my experience, the bottom entry method is
      more difficult to deal with when you need bottom side insulation and
      I usually need something for bottom side insulation since I mostly
      hammock camp in the mountains where night time temperatures require
      at least some insulation.

      There is not anything preventing a person from laying diagonal in a
      well designed hammock that doesn't have an asymmetrical shape. I
      can
      lay diagonal to the left, diagonal to the right or right down the
      enter axis of my hammocks. I find that laying on a diagonal
      sometimes results in a slight discomfort to the shoulders that I
      refer to as `shoulder squeeze'. I found that I am sometimes
      more
      comfortable lying down the center axis of the hammock and primarily
      just shifting my feet and legs either to the left or right until I
      find my sweet spot. I think the asymmetrical design encourages one
      to lay on a more severe diagonal and to one particular side, I like
      the freedom to pick the side if I choose to lay on a diagonal.

      The main advantage I see in the asymmetrical hammock design that uses
      side pull-outs is that it keeps the bugnetting from sagging in on
      you, thus giving you more interior space to call your own. However,
      I don't often need or use a bugnet when I hammock camp. When I
      hammock camp in the mountains, I usually find a place where bugs are
      not present to the extent they are a problem and when they are not, I
      seldom use a bugnet unless the wind is bothersome and is blowing in
      such a manner as it gets to my face and is cool enough to cause me
      discomfort. I have on an occasion or two used a bugnet for added
      warmth because it does act as a wind barrier and somewhat traps a
      layer of warm air, but that isn't very often. I much prefer the
      more open environment of not having a bugnet in place so that I can
      better see my surroundings, enjoy a light breeze with its associated
      fresh air, more easily enter/exit the hammock and reach items on the
      ground. For me, a bugnet is only a `necessary evil' that I
      use when
      conditions require, much like the small headnet that I also carry
      during `bug season' to go over my head when flying critters
      are being
      a nuisance. When I need it, I put the headnet on, and that is
      usually at breaks but might also be when hikingÂ… but I don't
      want it
      on when I don't need it as it is a royal pain because it builds
      up
      heat and humidity, reduces the cooling effect of breezes and limits
      visibility. I find the same conditions apply to a bugnet on a
      hammock, so the advantage of using side pull-outs for me would only
      be a small part of the time and not really worth it to me.

      But these are just my opinions and we all are entitled to our own.
      Obviously, many people genuinely like the asymmetrical design. I
      think it is great that we have these choices.

      Youngblood


      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Goller"
      <jerrygoller@b...> wrote:
      > What trade offs have you run into?
      > Jerry
      >
      >
      >
      > <http://www.backpackgeartest.org/>
      http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the
      > most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Dave Womble [mailto:dpwomble@y...]
      > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 6:51 AM
      > To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock
      >
      >
      >
      > Pete,
      >
      > I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one folds
      > the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the position of
      > side pullouts. However, as with most things, there are other
      > tradeoffs involved and that is why I don't have them on my homemade
      > hammocks.
      >
      > Youngblood
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • David Chinell
      Dave: You can rock yourself if you bend one leg, point the knee skyward, then move the knee left to right. It almost feels like you re pushing your thigh
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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        Dave:

        You can rock yourself if you bend one leg, point
        the knee skyward, then move the knee left to
        right. It almost feels like you're pushing your
        thigh against one side of the hammock, but of
        course, you're not. It's changing the center of
        gravity that's doing the rocking.

        Bear
      • Dave Womble
        ... side ... How so? Don t the pullouts on the HH asym hammocks create the asymmetrical shape that gives these hammocks their name? Youngblood
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Shane" <shane@t...> wrote:
          > > I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one folds
          > > the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the position of
          > > side pullouts.
          >
          > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth. Just moving the
          side
          > pullouts isn't the same thing.
          >
          > Shane

          How so? Don't the pullouts on the HH asym hammocks create the
          asymmetrical shape that gives these hammocks their name?

          Youngblood
        • Dave Womble
          ... Bear, agreed. But I haven t swung by repetively and synchronized shifting of my center of gravity since I was a few years younger on the school ground
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "David Chinell"
            <dchinell@m...> wrote:
            > Dave:
            >
            > You can rock yourself if you bend one leg, point
            > the knee skyward, then move the knee left to
            > right. It almost feels like you're pushing your
            > thigh against one side of the hammock, but of
            > course, you're not. It's changing the center of
            > gravity that's doing the rocking.
            >
            > Bear

            Bear, agreed. But I haven't swung by repetively and synchronized
            shifting of my center of gravity since I was a few years younger on
            the school ground swing set. Its a skill I'm a little rusty at.

            Dave
          • Shane
            ... Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth. Just moving the side pullouts isn t the same thing. Shane
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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              > I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one folds
              > the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the position of
              > side pullouts.

              Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth. Just moving the side
              pullouts isn't the same thing.

              Shane
            • Jerry Goller
              It also has to do with the characteristics of the fabric weave. It stretches more in one direction than the other. Jerry
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                Message
                It also has to do with the characteristics of the fabric weave. It stretches more in one direction than the other.
                Jerry
                 
                 

                http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dave Womble [mailto:dpwomble@...]
                Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 3:48 PM
                To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock


                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Shane" <shane@t...> wrote:
                > > I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one folds
                > > the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the position of
                > > side pullouts.
                >
                > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth.  Just moving the
                side
                > pullouts isn't the same thing.
                >
                > Shane

                How so?  Don't the pullouts on the HH asym hammocks create the
                asymmetrical shape that gives these hammocks their name? 

                Youngblood




              • Jerry Goller
                Me, too...lol. And it is interesting that most of the negatives that you see in an asym, I see as positives. That s why we have more than one design and more
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                  Message
                  Me, too...lol. And it is interesting that most of the negatives that you see in an asym, I see as positives. That's why we have more than one design and more than one manufacturer....   ;o)
                  I also use mine almost exclusively in the mountains.
                  Jerry
                   
                   

                  http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dave Womble [mailto:dpwomble@...]
                  Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 2:28 PM
                  To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock



                  But these are just my opinions and we all are entitled to our own. 
                  Obviously, many people genuinely like the asymmetrical design.  I
                  think it is great that we have these choices.

                  Youngblood


                • Dave Womble
                  Jerry, I am somewhat familiar with the stretch characteristics of woven fabric, to the extent that I understand that it stretches most on its bias and least on
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                    Jerry,

                    I am somewhat familiar with the stretch characteristics of woven
                    fabric, to the extent that I understand that it stretches most on its
                    bias and least on its warp. I believe the center line of the hammock
                    bed is on the warp of the fabric and the weft is orthogonal (or 90
                    degrees) to the warp with the bias being at a 45 degree angle to both
                    the warp and the weft. And I can understand how that effects the
                    feel or lay of the hammock if you lay on a diagonal to the center
                    line of the hammock versus laying on the center line of the hammock.

                    What I don't understand is Shane's or even your comment to my
                    statement.

                    I said: "I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one
                    folds the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the position
                    of side pullouts."

                    Shane replied with: "Actually it has to do with the bias of the
                    cloth. Just moving the side pullouts isn't the same thing."

                    Jerry, you replied with: "It also has to do with the characteristics
                    of the fabric weave. It stretches more in one direction than the
                    other."

                    I don't understand the comment, are we talking about the same think,
                    the asym shape or are we talking about the lay of the hammock? I
                    think one or some combination of us is confusing one thing with
                    another. <grin>

                    Youngblood
                  • Shane Steinkamp
                    ... Yeah... That s what bias means... Shane
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                      > > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth.

                      > It also has to do with the characteristics of the fabric weave. It
                      > stretches more in one direction than the other.

                      Yeah... That's what bias means...

                      Shane
                    • Shane Steinkamp
                      ... Looking at it, you might assume so, but I don t use the pullouts and my hammock is still asymmetrical. Folks who don t sew their own clothes rarely
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                        > > > I don't think the asym characteristic is achieved by how one
                        > > > folds the ends of the hammock, I think it is achieved by the
                        > > > position of side pullouts.
                        > >
                        > > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth. Just moving the
                        > > side pullouts isn't the same thing.
                        >
                        > How so? Don't the pullouts on the HH asym hammocks create the
                        > asymmetrical shape that gives these hammocks their name?

                        Looking at it, you might assume so, but I don't use the pullouts and my
                        hammock is still asymmetrical. Folks who don't sew their own clothes rarely
                        understand, much less know about, fabric bias.

                        Essentially all fabric comes on a bolt. The nylon cloths used to make
                        hammocks is no different. You can't just cut a suit of clothes out of a
                        piece of fabric willy-nilly. You have to appreciate the bias of the cloth
                        so that the finished clothes hang right. Fabric has a weave. This weave
                        stretches very little across the grain in either direction, but along the
                        bias - 45 degrees off straight grain - there is a much greater stretch.

                        An asymmetrical hammock uses this to an advantage. It is NOT the same as
                        simply laying in a non-asym hammock at an angle. What's the difference?

                        Well, think about a piece of fabric that you're going to make a hammock out
                        of. Let's say that it's 4 by 8 feet. If we gather the small ends and tie
                        our ropes, this is a symmetrical hammock. The fabric will stretch very
                        little. The 'lay' of the hammock will be somewhere around six feet, and
                        will probably be comfortable. Instead of tying at the narrow ends, think
                        about tying at opposite corners. Now you have an asymmetrical hammock. The
                        'lay' of this hammock - made from the same size piece as the first one -
                        will be very nearly 8 feet or maybe a little more, and the 'lay' will be
                        MUCH flatter.

                        Of course, you can't just tie two corners like that... You have to cut the
                        piece in such a way that you can tie enough of it so that you get enough of
                        it tied into the rope so that it's strong enough. Tom doesn't actually have
                        this quite right. I think he's found a balance between weight and lay. If
                        he used a bit more material, the asym hammocks could be a little flatter.
                        The bug netting also has something to do with it, I think, but I haven't cut
                        one apart to actually see what his cut lines are. I built my first
                        asymmetrical hammock in about 1993 and it took me a few tries to figure it
                        out. Tom's design is solid.

                        None of this is to say that there's anything wrong with a non-asym hammock
                        that hangs along the fabric grain. I just think that it's important to
                        appreciate that there is a real difference in the two methods - and it has
                        nothing to do with the placement of the tieouts.

                        Shane
                      • Shane Steinkamp
                        ... I can rock in my asym. Why shouldn t I be able to? ... Simply don t tie them. I never tie the pullouts... ... I use a 27 pad, and with the asym design,
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                          > Without the associated side pullouts currently used to form an
                          > asymmetrical shape, I can gently rock in my hammock.

                          I can rock in my asym. Why shouldn't I be able to?

                          > I think the side pullouts used with the current asymmetrical
                          > hammocks are somewhat problematic for a side entry hammock and that
                          > is my preferred entry method.

                          Simply don't tie them. I never tie the pullouts...

                          > In my experience, the bottom entry method is
                          > more difficult to deal with when you need bottom side insulation and
                          > I usually need something for bottom side insulation since I mostly
                          > hammock camp in the mountains where night time temperatures require
                          > at least some insulation.

                          I use a 27" pad, and with the asym design, the edge of the pad is right at
                          the base of the slit. This is perfect. I sit on the pad right where I need
                          to be. The slit is never an issue. It IS an issue in a non-asym hammock if
                          there is a bottom slit.

                          > There is not anything preventing a person from laying diagonal in a
                          > well designed hammock that doesn't have an asymmetrical shape.

                          But it's NOT the same thing.

                          > I
                          > can lay diagonal to the left, diagonal to the right or right down
                          > the enter axis of my hammocks.

                          I can lay diagonal to the left, and I can lay down the center. I usually do
                          when I'm reading. I can't lay diagonal to the right. I thought that this
                          might be a problem at first because most of my life I slept diagonal to the
                          right, but I quickly got used to laying left.

                          > I find that laying on a diagonal sometimes results in a slight
                          > discomfort to the shoulders that I refer to as `shoulder squeeze'.

                          This is not an issue in an asym hammock.

                          > I found that I am sometimes more comfortable lying down the center
                          > axis of the hammock and primarily
                          > just shifting my feet and legs either to the left or right until I
                          > find my sweet spot. I think the asymmetrical design encourages one
                          > to lay on a more severe diagonal and to one particular side, I like
                          > the freedom to pick the side if I choose to lay on a diagonal.

                          There is a lot of play in it. This is your preference, and that's fair
                          enough.

                          > But these are just my opinions and we all are entitled to our own.
                          > Obviously, many people genuinely like the asymmetrical design. I
                          > think it is great that we have these choices.

                          Agreed, but some of the above forces me to ask a rude question. Have you
                          ever actually TRIED an asym hammock? Hennessey or no?

                          Shane
                        • Jerry Goller
                          I know....I was agreeing with you. It *does* happen, from time to time...... ;o) Jerry http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 4, 2004
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                            Message
                            I know....I was agreeing with you. It *does* happen, from time to time......   ;o)
                            Jerry
                             
                             

                            http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet.

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Shane Steinkamp [mailto:shane@...]
                            Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:29 PM
                            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [Hammock Camping] Re: Can you make an asym hammock

                            > > Actually it has to do with the bias of the cloth.

                            > It also has to do with the characteristics of the fabric weave. It
                            > stretches more in one direction than the other.

                            Yeah...  That's what bias means...

                            Shane


                          • Shane
                            Message I know....I was agreeing with you. It *does* happen, from time to ... Ah. OK, then. I was caught off guard by that... ;) Shane
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                              Message> I know....I was agreeing with you. It *does* happen, from time to
                              > time...... ;o)

                              Ah. OK, then. I was caught off guard by that... ;)

                              Shane
                            • Dave Womble
                              Shane, Okay, I see what you meant. I didn t realize that the fabric for the hammock bed is oriented such that it is on a diagonal to the fabric weave, or like
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                Shane,

                                Okay, I see what you meant. I didn't realize that the fabric for the
                                hammock bed is oriented such that it is on a diagonal to the fabric
                                weave, or like you said, on a bias of the cloth. Thanks for pointing
                                that out, that does mean that what I stated was not correct. I now
                                see that the side pullouts are positioned to 'compliment' the asym
                                nature of the hammock rather than 'causing' the asym nature.

                                Youngblood
                              • ptoddf@aol.com
                                Shane, Many thanks for your explanation of the bias cut for asym hammock design. I wasn t aware of this and it adds an important new dimension to my attempts
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                  Shane,
                                   
                                  Many thanks for your explanation of the bias cut for asym hammock design. I wasn't aware of this and it adds an important new dimension to my attempts using my test hammock. See post on my variation on this idea.
                                   
                                  I like the HH too, but I want to make a light, efficient open hammock, without net or other HH features that is as comfortable.
                                   
                                  Best, Todd in Tarzana.
                                • Dave Womble
                                  ... wrote: ... Agreed, but some of the above forces me to ask a rude question. Have you ... Yes, I used one extensively on backpacking trips for about a year.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp" <shane@t...>
                                    wrote:
                                    ...> Agreed, but some of the above forces me to ask a rude question.
                                    Have you
                                    > ever actually TRIED an asym hammock? Hennessey or no?
                                    >
                                    > Shane

                                    Yes, I used one extensively on backpacking trips for about a year.
                                    It was the Hennessy UtraLight Backpacker Asym, which was the first
                                    asym model that came out and the only asym model available at the
                                    time I purchased it.

                                    I believe we had discussions previously where we disagreed on a
                                    particular point and someone wisely pointed out that the hammock you
                                    were using was larger that the one I had and that might be why we saw
                                    details differently. I believe you use the Hennessy Explorer Deluxe
                                    A-Sym, which is a bit larger than the one I used. That might again
                                    explain some of the different opinions as well as the fact that I
                                    used the side pullouts with mine and you apparently do not. But then
                                    again, it is also possible that we see the same thing but judge it
                                    differently... such is life.

                                    Youngblood
                                  • ptoddf@aol.com
                                    On test hammocks, Risk has a great idea there. Thanks, Risk. Try this variation so you can try different gathers and bias ideas: Instead of an end knot, pass
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                      On test hammocks, Risk has a great idea there. Thanks, Risk.
                                       
                                      Try this variation so you can try different gathers and bias ideas:
                                       
                                      Instead of an end knot, pass the gathered material on each end through a Home Depot welded steel ring, about 2" in diameter and 3/16" thick. Secure the material to itself with a split piece of black rubber hose and a standard stainless steel worm-gear hose clamp. Buy the hose, about 1 and 1/2 inch in diameter from the same store. You can buy 1 foot off the roll, cut this into about 2 1/2" segments and split them along oneside with a knife. Cut out 1/8" or so if the hose doesn't close tightly enough around the folded hammock end.
                                       
                                      This allows you to clamp and unclamp in minutes.
                                       
                                      WARNING!!! If this is not done right the material can slip through and you'll hit the ground! This happened to me the first time I tried it.
                                       
                                      Make sure the clamp is very tight, don't hang the hammock very high, and put a lounge chair pad on the ground underneath just in case.
                                      Better would be to sew a safety margin on the end of the material so it can't slip throught the clamp even if it slips. This is for design testing only!
                                       
                                      I learned a huge amount from doing different folding and rolling schemes,  including off-axis rolls and folds. There's nothing like lying in a hammock real time to figure out what's going on, and this method makes it possible. Small changes have large, non-obvious results.
                                       
                                      If this is not clear, speak up and I'll post pictures.
                                       
                                      Best, Todd in Tarzana.
                                    • zippydooda
                                      So, can you tell us what you learned? Especially on the off axis stuff... Bill in Houston ... schemes, ... hammock real ... possible. Small
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                        So, can you tell us what you learned? Especially on the off axis
                                        stuff...

                                        Bill in Houston

                                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, ptoddf@a... wrote:
                                        > On test hammocks, Risk has a great idea there. Thanks, Risk.
                                        > <snip>
                                        > I learned a huge amount from doing different folding and rolling
                                        schemes,
                                        > including off-axis rolls and folds. There's nothing like lying in a
                                        hammock real
                                        > time to figure out what's going on, and this method makes it
                                        possible. Small
                                        > changes have large, non-obvious results.
                                        >
                                        > If this is not clear, speak up and I'll post pictures.
                                        >
                                        > Best, Todd in Tarzana.
                                      • Amy Skowronek
                                        ... I ve used this model as well. I ve slept in it for about a month total. I used the older non-asym ultralight backpacker on the trail for about a month,
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                          On Oct 5, 2004, at 10:49 AM, Dave Womble wrote:

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Steinkamp" <shane@t...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > ...> Agreed, but some of the above forces me to ask a rude question.
                                          > Have you
                                          >> ever actually TRIED an asym hammock? Hennessey or no?
                                          >>
                                          >> Shane
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I used one extensively on backpacking trips for about a year.
                                          > It was the Hennessy UtraLight Backpacker Asym, which was the first
                                          > asym model that came out and the only asym model available at the
                                          > time I purchased it.
                                          >
                                          >

                                          I've used this model as well. I've slept in it for about a month total.

                                          I used the older non-asym ultralight backpacker on the trail for about
                                          a month, too.
                                          The big difference to me was that when I rolled over in the asym I
                                          didn't
                                          need to switch diagonals. I almost always sleep with a pad in the
                                          hammock
                                          so switching diagonals is a pain. It didn't feel roomier to me. (But
                                          I'm 5'4",
                                          so I had plenty of room to start with.)

                                          -amy
                                        • Ray Garlington
                                          ... sewed ... This is similar to what I did, but I used a shape more like a parallelogram, like so: http://tinyurl.com/62zmc I kept the bias of the cloth
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 5, 2004
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                                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "seuss910" <wrv77@y...> wrote:
                                            > Asymmetry was achieved with the cut of the hammock, not so much
                                            > with the fold. I started with a kind of squared off trapezoid,
                                            sewed
                                            > a soft webbing along the end hems for bulk, pleated the ends, and
                                            > then tied the hanging straps around the bunched ends.
                                            >

                                            This is similar to what I did, but I used a shape more like a
                                            parallelogram, like so: http://tinyurl.com/62zmc

                                            I kept the bias of the cloth aligned with the support points (i.e.
                                            centerline of the hammock), since you don't want any stretch in that
                                            dimension. I got a moderate asym feel with a 3" cut on each side.
                                            I'd be tempted to go to about 6" for the next try.
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