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hammock body and catenary curve

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  • Ray Garlington
    with all this talk about tarps and the somewhat mysteriously-capable catenary cut edges, does it make any sense to apply this to the hammock body? If you apply
    Message 1 of 17 , May 25, 2004
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      with all this talk about tarps and the somewhat mysteriously-capable
      catenary cut edges, does it make any sense to apply this to the
      hammock body?

      If you apply the curve to the long edges, can you then tie the
      hammock end evenly (thus not pulling the corners out 2"), and
      achieve an ideal hammock body shape?

      If you apply this curve to the end (short length) of the hammock
      body (only in reverse -- more material in middle, less on outside),
      then pull the fabric even before tieing off the hammock, do you get
      an inherently more pleasing hammock shape that way?

      how much curve would be ideal for each dimension?

      enquiring minds want to know
    • Mirage
      ... capable ... outside), ... get ... I ve actually incorporated this idea into one of my designs, but still have to play with the curve to get a perfect
      Message 2 of 17 , May 25, 2004
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        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Garlington"
        <rgarling@y...> wrote:
        > with all this talk about tarps and the somewhat mysteriously-
        capable
        > catenary cut edges, does it make any sense to apply this to the
        > hammock body?
        >
        > If you apply the curve to the long edges, can you then tie the
        > hammock end evenly (thus not pulling the corners out 2"), and
        > achieve an ideal hammock body shape?
        >
        > If you apply this curve to the end (short length) of the hammock
        > body (only in reverse -- more material in middle, less on
        outside),
        > then pull the fabric even before tieing off the hammock, do you
        get
        > an inherently more pleasing hammock shape that way?

        I've actually incorporated this idea into one of my designs, but
        still have to play with the curve to get a "perfect" balance between
        side tension and body shape.

        I never thought of the long sides though....hmmm, got me thinking
        now...

        The thing with the curved short end is that you will need to sew a
        wide hem to accept the rope or strap. This is a potential point of
        failure when compared to Ed's overhand knot. Also, Ed's strap
        behind the knot makes for a nice, quick release, hang system if you
        don't want your lines permanantly attached. Differnet strokes I
        guess.

        I'll post some pics when I get a chance. Maybe I'll even moidfy one
        to have catenary cut sides, just to see what it does to the fell and
        performance.

        Shane "Mirage"...
      • Dave Womble
        Ray, Not sure how it would affect the lay of the hammock if you apply the curve to the long edges but I do have a thought about applying the curve to the
        Message 3 of 17 , May 25, 2004
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          Ray,

          Not sure how it would affect the 'lay of the hammock' if you apply
          the curve to the long edges but I do have a thought about applying
          the curve to the short end. If you look at Byers Travel Hammock,
          they use a bed of solid fabric with each end of the fabric bed
          connected to a ring by means of lots of strings. Starting from the
          center, the strings have progressively shorter lengths. This tends
          to force you to the center line of the hammock and makes it difficult
          to obtain the 'flat lay' when you lay diagonal to the center line. I
          always thought that Ed's 2" pull at the corners was more of a safety
          issue than it was a comfort issue... I thought he shorten the edges
          to make it more difficult to fall out. If you progressively make the
          edges of the bed of the hammock longer than the center of the
          hammock, I'm thinking it will tend to dump you out onto whatever is
          below the hammock.

          Dave

          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Garlington"
          <rgarling@y...> wrote:
          > with all this talk about tarps and the somewhat mysteriously-
          capable
          > catenary cut edges, does it make any sense to apply this to the
          > hammock body?
          >
          > If you apply the curve to the long edges, can you then tie the
          > hammock end evenly (thus not pulling the corners out 2"), and
          > achieve an ideal hammock body shape?
          >
          > If you apply this curve to the end (short length) of the hammock
          > body (only in reverse -- more material in middle, less on outside),
          > then pull the fabric even before tieing off the hammock, do you get
          > an inherently more pleasing hammock shape that way?
          >
          > how much curve would be ideal for each dimension?
          >
          > enquiring minds want to know
        • Mirage
          ... one ... and ... I ve posted a diagram of what I think Ray and I are talking about (Ray, correct me if I missunderstood your post). It s in the Yahoo!
          Message 4 of 17 , May 25, 2004
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            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mirage" <mirage@p...> wrote:
            > I'll post some pics when I get a chance. Maybe I'll even modify
            one
            > to have catenary cut sides, just to see what it does to the fell
            and
            > performance.

            I've posted a diagram of what I think Ray and I are talking about
            (Ray, correct me if I missunderstood your post). It's in the Yahoo!
            hammockcamping group photo section, or http://tinyurl.com/2op79

            I've done the curve on the end, but not the side yet.

            To hang such a config, you need to sew a rod channel by folding over
            and stiching along the curve, creating a wide hem (1.5 -2 in.) that
            is tripple stiched for security. Sewing on this curve is very
            awkward and hard to do w/out causing odd puckering and folds. This
            is mostly due to the amount of fabric being folded over.

            On the long side, sewing a small (1/2 in.) hem shouldn't be that bad.

            I'll try it out later this week and report my findings.

            Shane "Mirage"...
          • Dave Womble
            Shane, I think you can get similar results using the Speer Hammock design by simply pulling the ends of each fold out a little more than the preceeding fold
            Message 5 of 17 , May 25, 2004
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              Shane,

              I think you can get similar results using the Speer Hammock design by
              simply pulling the ends of each fold out a little more than the
              preceeding fold when you are gathering the hammock ends... similiar
              to pulling the corners out but doing it less and at each fold. If
              you drew your curve on the fabric, maybe you could use that line as a
              guide to pull each fold?

              Dave

              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mirage" <mirage@p...> wrote:
              > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mirage" <mirage@p...> wrote:
              > > I'll post some pics when I get a chance. Maybe I'll even modify
              > one
              > > to have catenary cut sides, just to see what it does to the fell
              > and
              > > performance.
              >
              > I've posted a diagram of what I think Ray and I are talking about
              > (Ray, correct me if I missunderstood your post). It's in the
              Yahoo!
              > hammockcamping group photo section, or http://tinyurl.com/2op79
              >
              > I've done the curve on the end, but not the side yet.
              >
              > To hang such a config, you need to sew a rod channel by folding
              over
              > and stiching along the curve, creating a wide hem (1.5 -2 in.) that
              > is tripple stiched for security. Sewing on this curve is very
              > awkward and hard to do w/out causing odd puckering and folds. This
              > is mostly due to the amount of fabric being folded over.
              >
              > On the long side, sewing a small (1/2 in.) hem shouldn't be that
              bad.
              >
              > I'll try it out later this week and report my findings.
              >
              > Shane "Mirage"...
            • Mirage
              ... by ... similiar ... as a ... I would agree with you Dave. That is essentially how the Speer is made anyway, only what you are describing distributes the
              Message 6 of 17 , May 25, 2004
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                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Womble" <dpwomble@y...>
                wrote:
                > Shane,
                >
                > I think you can get similar results using the Speer Hammock design
                by
                > simply pulling the ends of each fold out a little more than the
                > preceeding fold when you are gathering the hammock ends...
                similiar
                > to pulling the corners out but doing it less and at each fold. If
                > you drew your curve on the fabric, maybe you could use that line
                as a
                > guide to pull each fold?
                >

                I would agree with you Dave. That is essentially how the Speer is
                made anyway, only what you are describing "distributes" the last
                pulled gather over the width of the fabric.

                The key diff is that w/out the need for an extra foot of fabric at
                either end for the knot, we might realize a slightly lighter overall
                hammock weight.

                I still think Ed's design is so simple as to be perfectly elegant.
                Simple is usually better, but one needs to occasionally experiment
                and try new things (or old things with new perspective or
                materials), right ;)

                Another diff btwn Ed's gather, pull and knot method and this
                catenary cut one is that the tension is distributed across the full
                width in the cat cut version. In Ed's, the tension is largely
                constrainded to the last 5 inches of the side. I think this has the
                effect of creating a "roomier" feel than we may get outa the cat cut
                version.

                I'll try anyway and report what I find.

                Shane "Mirage"...
              • matthulbert
                This is an interesting discussion. I had *almost* this idea last year after I made my first hammock. I didn t like how the hammock curled up around me too
                Message 7 of 17 , May 26, 2004
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                  This is an interesting discussion. I had *almost* this idea last year
                  after I made my first hammock. I didn't like how the hammock curled up
                  around me too much. I wanted the hammock to lay flatter. I even posted
                  a few ideas here.

                  I was thinking the opposite idea of Mirage's diagram: doing the
                  caternary curve the other direction. Then when you tied the Speer knot
                  on the end, DON'T pull the last two inches of fabric up. This would
                  allow the outer edges to lay flatter and should allow a bigger
                  diagonal "sweet spot". I never got around to making one.

                  Another way to do this would be to NOT pull the last two inches
                  higher, as Ed says to do in his book. This would accomplish the same
                  thing.

                  Of course if you did it too much, it would make the much easier to
                  fall out.

                  I made my last hammock 4' wide rather than 5' (a la Risk) and I like
                  it much better. I'm not quite the experimenter some of you are. I just
                  don't have that much time or energy!


                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mirage" <mirage@p...> wrote:
                  > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Womble" <dpwomble@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Shane,
                  > >
                  > > I think you can get similar results using the Speer Hammock design
                  > by
                  > > simply pulling the ends of each fold out a little more than the
                  > > preceeding fold when you are gathering the hammock ends...
                  > similiar
                  > > to pulling the corners out but doing it less and at each fold. If
                  > > you drew your curve on the fabric, maybe you could use that line
                  > as a
                  > > guide to pull each fold?
                  > >
                  >
                  > I would agree with you Dave. That is essentially how the Speer is
                  > made anyway, only what you are describing "distributes" the last
                  > pulled gather over the width of the fabric.
                  >
                  > The key diff is that w/out the need for an extra foot of fabric at
                  > either end for the knot, we might realize a slightly lighter overall
                  > hammock weight.
                  >
                  > I still think Ed's design is so simple as to be perfectly elegant.
                  > Simple is usually better, but one needs to occasionally experiment
                  > and try new things (or old things with new perspective or
                  > materials), right ;)
                  >
                  > Another diff btwn Ed's gather, pull and knot method and this
                  > catenary cut one is that the tension is distributed across the full
                  > width in the cat cut version. In Ed's, the tension is largely
                  > constrainded to the last 5 inches of the side. I think this has the
                  > effect of creating a "roomier" feel than we may get outa the cat cut
                  > version.
                  >
                  > I'll try anyway and report what I find.
                  >
                  > Shane "Mirage"...
                • Ray Garlington
                  A note to experimenters. If you want to experiment with end shapes, elaborate sewing or knot tying is not required. You can just gather the material along
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 26, 2004
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                    A note to experimenters. If you want to experiment with end shapes,
                    elaborate sewing or knot tying is not required. You can just gather
                    the material along your marked line, use some 1/8" cord to
                    whip/tie/wrap it together, then tie a rope inside the whipped end
                    using a clove hitch or some such knot. This holds up well (I used
                    this for 7 nights without mishap) and unties easily.
                    Ray

                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "matthulbert" <ms@u...> wrote:
                    ... Then when you tied the Speer knot
                    > on the end, DON'T pull the last two inches of fabric up. This would
                    > allow the outer edges to lay flatter and should allow a bigger
                    > diagonal "sweet spot". I never got around to making one.
                  • robi
                    ... been having the opposite.. i wnt the darn hammock to curl up more.. i have the ultimate plan for you: gain weight! get big and fat like me and it will not
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 26, 2004
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                      > This is an interesting discussion. I had *almost* this idea last year
                      > after I made my first hammock. I didn't like how the hammock curled up
                      > around me too much. I wanted the hammock to lay flatter. I even posted
                      > a few ideas here.


                      been having the opposite.. i wnt the darn hammock to curl up more..

                      i have the ultimate plan

                      for you:

                      gain weight! get big and fat like me and it will not curl up around you so
                      much.

                      For me:

                      loose weight, get down to the weight of my wife and i will be enveloped,
                      like in a cacoon... um, that look sso cozy to me..

                      >
                      > I was thinking the opposite idea of Mirage's diagram: doing the
                      > caternary curve the other direction. Then when you tied the Speer knot
                      > on the end, DON'T pull the last two inches of fabric up.


                      i had the same thoguht



                      robi
                    • Mirage
                      ... year ... curled up ... posted ... knot ... While I concur that this will make it easier to lay flatter, it also complicates cold weather insulation with
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 26, 2004
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                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "matthulbert" <ms@u...> wrote:
                        > This is an interesting discussion. I had *almost* this idea last
                        year
                        > after I made my first hammock. I didn't like how the hammock
                        curled up
                        > around me too much. I wanted the hammock to lay flatter. I even
                        posted
                        > a few ideas here.
                        >
                        > I was thinking the opposite idea of Mirage's diagram: doing the
                        > caternary curve the other direction. Then when you tied the Speer
                        knot
                        > on the end, DON'T pull the last two inches of fabric up. This would
                        > allow the outer edges to lay flatter and should allow a bigger
                        > diagonal "sweet spot". I never got around to making one.

                        While I concur that this will make it easier to lay flatter, it also
                        complicates cold weather insulation with underquilts. It causes the
                        hammock to "spread" out more, preventing underquilts from wrapping
                        around you enough. Of course, as the weather warms up, this becomes
                        less and less of a problem.

                        >
                        > Another way to do this would be to NOT pull the last two inches
                        > higher, as Ed says to do in his book. This would accomplish the
                        same
                        > thing.

                        I've done this, and it does what you expect, but with the same
                        result as I described above.

                        >
                        > Of course if you did it too much, it would make the much easier to
                        > fall out.

                        Even in narrow hammocks, I have never really had a problem falling
                        out. The only ones I've ever felt "teetery" (sp?) in are the ones
                        with spreader bars, your typical backyard garden store styles.

                        >
                        > I made my last hammock 4' wide rather than 5' (a la Risk) and I
                        like
                        > it much better. I'm not quite the experimenter some of you are. I
                        just
                        > don't have that much time or energy!

                        It does take alot from me and my family.

                        Shane "Mirage"...
                      • dlfrost_1
                        ... capable ... As others have already mentioned, how you gather up & shorten the bed material before tying determines the lay of the bed already. As to
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 26, 2004
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                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Garlington"
                          <rgarling@y...> wrote:
                          > with all this talk about tarps and the somewhat mysteriously-
                          capable
                          > catenary cut edges, does it make any sense to apply this to the
                          > hammock body?
                          >
                          > If you apply the curve to the long edges, can you then tie the
                          > hammock end evenly (thus not pulling the corners out 2"), and
                          > achieve an ideal hammock body shape?
                          >
                          > If you apply this curve to the end (short length) of the hammock
                          > body (only in reverse -- more material in middle, less on outside),
                          > then pull the fabric even before tieing off the hammock, do you get
                          > an inherently more pleasing hammock shape that way?

                          As others have already mentioned, how you gather up & shorten the bed
                          material before tying determines the lay of the bed already.

                          As to placing a catenary curve along the edge, I don't see any real
                          advantage. You might consider adding tie-outs however. The tieouts
                          built into the Hennessy, along with the diamond fly, give it a smart
                          look. And it makes it feel roomier too.

                          (That's something I've been appreciating with the HH the more I've
                          used one. The bed swag is well balanced between rollout-security and
                          flatness. The tieouts pull the bed apart to maintain the form. And
                          the bug netting has a low-cut hem and large vaulted space above. The
                          combination of these features gives the hammock an open feeling you
                          wouldn't otherwise get.)

                          Doug Frost
                        • Chet Clocksin
                          ... more I ve used one. The bed swag is well balanced between rollout-security and flatness. The tieouts pull the bed apart to maintain the form. And the
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 26, 2004
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                            -----Original (That's something I've been appreciating with the HH the more I've
                            used one.  The bed swag is well balanced between rollout-security and
                            flatness.  The tieouts pull the bed apart to maintain the form.  And
                            the bug netting has a low-cut hem and large vaulted space above.  The
                            combination of these features gives the hammock an open feeling you
                            wouldn't otherwise get.)
                            [Chet Clocksin] 
                            I agree . I have added a "shaped" bug net (diamond shaped) to my home made Speer hammock, and I also added a ridge line which helps maintain the right curve and plenty of room in the hammock. I also tied my knots with less than 2 inches pulled up, and all these things together make the hammock more comfortable for me. The "structural" ridgeline that I have attached between the knots (with a girth hitch on one end, and a carabiner on the other), combined with the diamond shaped bug net (3 and 1/2 feet wide in the middle, and 2 feet wide on the ends), makes for a lot of room in the interior of the hammock. I have considered addind tieouts ala the HH, but decided the ridgeline and bug net have given me the result was after.
                             
                            Chet  
                            Message-----
                            From: dlfrost_1 [mailto:dlfrost@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 6:00 PM
                            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: hammock body and catenary curve

                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Garlington"
                            <rgarling@y...> wrote:
                            > with all this talk about tarps and the somewhat mysteriously-
                            capable
                            > catenary cut edges, does it make any sense to apply this to the
                            > hammock body?
                            >
                            > If you apply the curve to the long edges, can you then tie the
                            > hammock end evenly (thus not pulling the corners out 2"), and
                            > achieve an ideal hammock body shape?
                            >
                            > If you apply this curve to the end (short length) of the hammock
                            > body (only in reverse -- more material in middle, less on outside),
                            > then pull the fabric even before tieing off the hammock, do you get
                            > an inherently more pleasing hammock shape that way?

                            As others have already mentioned, how you gather up & shorten the bed
                            material before tying determines the lay of the bed already.

                            As to placing a catenary curve along the edge, I don't see any real
                            advantage.  You might consider adding tie-outs however.  The tieouts
                            built into the Hennessy, along with the diamond fly, give it a smart
                            look.  And it makes it feel roomier too.

                            (That's something I've been appreciating with the HH the more I've
                            used one.  The bed swag is well balanced between rollout-security and
                            flatness.  The tieouts pull the bed apart to maintain the form.  And
                            the bug netting has a low-cut hem and large vaulted space above.  The
                            combination of these features gives the hammock an open feeling you
                            wouldn't otherwise get.)

                            Doug Frost



                          • Ray Garlington
                            ... bed ... The point here is by gathering the end material along an (inverse) catenary curve line, perhaps a more pleasing body shape is achieved. ... real
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 27, 2004
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                              a couple of clarifications below:
                              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "dlfrost_1" <dlfrost@a...>
                              wrote:
                              > As others have already mentioned, how you gather up & shorten the
                              bed
                              > material before tying determines the lay of the bed already.

                              The point here is by gathering the end material along an (inverse)
                              catenary curve line, perhaps a more pleasing body shape is
                              achieved.


                              > As to placing a catenary curve along the edge, I don't see any
                              real advantage.

                              I'm assuming that a catenary gathering at the end combined with a
                              straight seam along the long edge would end up about the same as
                              straight gathering at the end combined with a catenary cut along the
                              long edge. I have not done this yet to verify.
                            • dlfrost_1
                              ... If you ve got a couple of those locking gator clips sold for use with tarps you can (gently) attach them to the upper sides of the hammock and see if tie
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 27, 2004
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                                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Chet Clocksin"
                                <cclocksin@b...> wrote:
                                > I have considered addind tieouts ala the HH, but decided the
                                > ridgeline and bug net have given me the result was after.
                                >
                                > Chet

                                If you've got a couple of those locking "gator" clips sold for use
                                with tarps you can (gently) attach them to the upper sides of the
                                hammock and see if tie outs would be useful for your setup.

                                Doug Frost
                              • Chet Clocksin
                                Doug, Sounds like it would work for a trial, but the more I think about it, it s probably not worth the aggravation of having a guy line to dodge when getting
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 27, 2004
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                                  Doug,
                                   
                                  Sounds like it would work for a trial, but the more I think about it, it's probably not worth the aggravation of having a guy line to dodge when getting in and out of a top entry hammock ( I already have enough tarp lines to dodge!! ). I also have an HH Expedition, and the guylines don't bother me too much because you enter through the bottom slit.
                                   
                                  I have to say, my latest home made Speer style hammock is the cats meow. The double bottom is great compared to wrestling with a pad in my HH, I like the removeable bug net (especially when its really hot outside, or when its cold enough to use my wallcreeper as a pea pod ), removeable straps make it easy to clean the hammock and / or the straps, and the ridgeline & bugnet make it seem nice and roomy.
                                   
                                  Even so, I'm sure I'll be experimenting with something else before long!
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: dlfrost_1 [mailto:dlfrost@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:30 PM
                                  To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: hammock body and catenary curve

                                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Chet Clocksin"
                                  <cclocksin@b...> wrote:
                                  >  I have considered addind tieouts ala the HH, but decided the
                                  > ridgeline and bug net have given me the result was after.
                                  >
                                  >   Chet

                                  If you've got a couple of those locking "gator" clips sold for use
                                  with tarps you can (gently) attach them to the upper sides of the
                                  hammock and see if tie outs would be useful for your setup.

                                  Doug Frost



                                • Rick
                                  ... Cool Idea Ray! So the whipped end does not begin to slip down the fabric? How about when wet? Rick
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 28, 2004
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                                    Ray Garlington wrote:

                                    >A note to experimenters. If you want to experiment with end shapes,
                                    >elaborate sewing or knot tying is not required. You can just gather
                                    >the material along your marked line, use some 1/8" cord to
                                    >whip/tie/wrap it together, then tie a rope inside the whipped end
                                    >using a clove hitch or some such knot.
                                    >
                                    Cool Idea Ray! So the whipped end does not begin to slip down the
                                    fabric? How about when wet?

                                    Rick
                                  • Ray Garlington
                                    ... So the whipped end does not begin to slip down the ... I have not had any problem with slippage with this configuration, but I need to point out that I m
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 29, 2004
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                                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Rick <ra1@i...> wrote:
                                      So the whipped end does not begin to slip down the
                                      > fabric? How about when wet?

                                      I have not had any problem with slippage with this configuration,
                                      but I need to point out that I'm using polyester material for the
                                      hammock bottom.
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