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Pad Insulation

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  • canoetrip_2000
    After I did my post a few weeks ago about how I froze on the AT, not in a hammock, in a durn Silshelter, someone said the problem might have been with the air
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
      After I did my post a few weeks ago about how I froze on the AT, not
      in a hammock, in a durn Silshelter, someone said the problem might
      have been with the air mattress I was using, instead of the old
      sleeping bag. Smart aleck me, I assumed that was wrong. Now, after
      doing research on the insulating properties of the beloved air
      mattress, the InsulMat, I concede that was surely a factor.

      This is not directly about hammocking, but since so many of you know
      much more than me about insulation, I wanted to ask the question
      here. I hammock when possible, but when not, I need a lot of
      padding. That's why I took the Insulmat on the trail. They make one
      with down inside, but I do not have another job yet and am only
      spending necessary money.

      So I was wondering, in order to make the InsulMat warmer, if I got
      the thinnest closed cell foam I could find, and made a sheath for
      it. I have ordered a Big Agnes sleeping bag with all the insulation
      on top, and a sleeve for attachment of a pad. I am sure that sleeve
      is not big enough to handle a 3 inch mattress fully inflated,
      surrounded by a sheath of closed cell foam, but I could only
      partially inflate the mattress. I have several Thermarests and have
      never had a good nights sleep on any of them. This is a major reason
      I switched to hammocking.

      Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

      Marsanne
    • Ralph Oborn
      Ed, is a privlege an honor to make a suggestion to you. One reason many people do not sleep well on a thermarest is they over inflate it, then spend most the
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
        Ed, is a privlege an honor to make a suggestion to you.

        One reason many people do not sleep well on a thermarest is they
        over inflate it, then spend most the night trying not to roll off.
        After you lay on the thermarest and get situated, you should let out
        as much air as possoble so the heavest part of your body (hips)
        almost touches the ground. With a 3 inch mattress this would almost
        be like sleeping in a hammock. Any added foam pads would of course
        add compressability and insulative value. If all would not fit into
        the sleeve, consider putting the closed cell foam outside on the
        tarp etc.


        Ralph


        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "canoetrip_2000"
        <firefly@e...> wrote:
        > After I did my post a few weeks ago about how I froze on the AT,
        not
        > in a hammock, in a durn Silshelter, someone said the problem might
        > have been with the air mattress I was using, instead of the old
        > sleeping bag. Smart aleck me, I assumed that was wrong. Now, after
        > doing research on the insulating properties of the beloved air
        > mattress, the InsulMat, I concede that was surely a factor.
        >
        > This is not directly about hammocking, but since so many of you
        know
        > much more than me about insulation, I wanted to ask the question
        > here. I hammock when possible, but when not, I need a lot of
        > padding. That's why I took the Insulmat on the trail. They make
        one
        > with down inside, but I do not have another job yet and am only
        > spending necessary money.
        >
        > So I was wondering, in order to make the InsulMat warmer, if I got
        > the thinnest closed cell foam I could find, and made a sheath for
        > it. I have ordered a Big Agnes sleeping bag with all the
        insulation
        > on top, and a sleeve for attachment of a pad. I am sure that
        sleeve
        > is not big enough to handle a 3 inch mattress fully inflated,
        > surrounded by a sheath of closed cell foam, but I could only
        > partially inflate the mattress. I have several Thermarests and
        have
        > never had a good nights sleep on any of them. This is a major
        reason
        > I switched to hammocking.
        >
        > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
        >
        > Marsanne
      • Dave Womble
        Marsanne, Big Anges (BA) makes two different shaped sleeping bags, one rectangular and one mummy. Which model bag are you getting and is it rectangular or
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
          Marsanne,

          Big Anges (BA) makes two different shaped sleeping bags, one
          rectangular and one mummy. Which model bag are you getting and is it
          rectangular or mummy?

          The InsulMat that you have is made by Pacific Outdoors Equipment
          (POE) and is their mummy shaped 2.5" thick Max-Compact model that is
          an orally inflated pad and has no internal insulation.

          BA is now listing orally inflated pads WITH internal insulation (
          http://www.bigagnes.com/str-rempads-aci.shtml ) and surely one of
          these will fit the pocked of your BA bag and provide some insulation.
          (They won't be available until mid-March) Will they be enough
          insulation? I don't know, but if its rating is lower than the rating
          of your bag, then it figures to be fine.

          POE is also listing an insulated version of the pad you have (
          http://pacoutdoor.com/index.cfm?
          action=product&productID=6&groupID=1&familyID=1 ) called the Max-
          Thermal that may already be available. If your BA bag is a regular
          size mummy bag then it will probably fit since both the POE and BA
          orally inflated pads are 2.5 inches thick.

          These orally inflated pads with insulation are a new thing as far as
          I know. And as it is with all new things, they are not a proven
          approach, so it is not a sure thing... I mean there could be problems
          that won't be recognised until they get enough use with them. Just
          something to consider before you spend your money.

          Youngblood


          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "canoetrip_2000"
          <firefly@e...> wrote:
          > After I did my post a few weeks ago about how I froze on the AT,
          not
          > in a hammock, in a durn Silshelter, someone said the problem might
          > have been with the air mattress I was using, instead of the old
          > sleeping bag. Smart aleck me, I assumed that was wrong. Now, after
          > doing research on the insulating properties of the beloved air
          > mattress, the InsulMat, I concede that was surely a factor.
          >
          > This is not directly about hammocking, but since so many of you
          know
          > much more than me about insulation, I wanted to ask the question
          > here. I hammock when possible, but when not, I need a lot of
          > padding. That's why I took the Insulmat on the trail. They make one
          > with down inside, but I do not have another job yet and am only
          > spending necessary money.
          >
          > So I was wondering, in order to make the InsulMat warmer, if I got
          > the thinnest closed cell foam I could find, and made a sheath for
          > it. I have ordered a Big Agnes sleeping bag with all the insulation
          > on top, and a sleeve for attachment of a pad. I am sure that sleeve
          > is not big enough to handle a 3 inch mattress fully inflated,
          > surrounded by a sheath of closed cell foam, but I could only
          > partially inflate the mattress. I have several Thermarests and have
          > never had a good nights sleep on any of them. This is a major
          reason
          > I switched to hammocking.
          >
          > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
          >
          > Marsanne
        • canoetrip_2000
          YOu make a good point about over inflating the Thermarests, but they are just NOT an option for me. I am a side sleeper, and they are not thick enough. I
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
            YOu make a good point about over inflating the Thermarests, but they
            are just NOT an option for me. I am a side sleeper, and they are not
            thick enough. I appreciate your suggestion, but I have tried
            EVERYTHING to make Thermarests work for me, including scooping out a
            hip trench. Just misery, period. I own 2 different Thermarests and
            they are both for sale, CHEAP! So, you think the sheath would work
            on the Insulmat, I am gathering?
            Marsanne (not Ed)


            > Ed, is a privlege an honor to make a suggestion to you.
            >
            > One reason many people do not sleep well on a thermarest is they
            > over inflate it, then spend most the night trying not to roll off.
            > After you lay on the thermarest and get situated, you should let
            out
            > as much air as possoble so the heavest part of your body (hips)
            > almost touches the ground. With a 3 inch mattress this would
            almost
            > be like sleeping in a hammock. Any added foam pads would of course
            > add compressability and insulative value. If all would not fit
            into
            > the sleeve, consider putting the closed cell foam outside on the
            > tarp etc.
            >
            >
            > Ralph
            >
            >
            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "canoetrip_2000"
            > <firefly@e...> wrote:
            > > After I did my post a few weeks ago about how I froze on the AT,
            > not
            > > in a hammock, in a durn Silshelter, someone said the problem
            might
            > > have been with the air mattress I was using, instead of the old
            > > sleeping bag. Smart aleck me, I assumed that was wrong. Now,
            after
            > > doing research on the insulating properties of the beloved air
            > > mattress, the InsulMat, I concede that was surely a factor.
            > >
            > > This is not directly about hammocking, but since so many of you
            > know
            > > much more than me about insulation, I wanted to ask the question
            > > here. I hammock when possible, but when not, I need a lot of
            > > padding. That's why I took the Insulmat on the trail. They make
            > one
            > > with down inside, but I do not have another job yet and am only
            > > spending necessary money.
            > >
            > > So I was wondering, in order to make the InsulMat warmer, if I
            got
            > > the thinnest closed cell foam I could find, and made a sheath
            for
            > > it. I have ordered a Big Agnes sleeping bag with all the
            > insulation
            > > on top, and a sleeve for attachment of a pad. I am sure that
            > sleeve
            > > is not big enough to handle a 3 inch mattress fully inflated,
            > > surrounded by a sheath of closed cell foam, but I could only
            > > partially inflate the mattress. I have several Thermarests and
            > have
            > > never had a good nights sleep on any of them. This is a major
            > reason
            > > I switched to hammocking.
            > >
            > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
            > >
            > > Marsanne
          • canoetrip_2000
            Hi Dave, thanks for your answer. I ordered the Lost Ranger +15, which is listed as semi-rectangular. I wanted that one so I could turn over within the bag and
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
              Hi Dave, thanks for your answer.
              I ordered the Lost Ranger +15, which is listed as semi-rectangular.
              I wanted that one so I could turn over within the bag and take
              advantage of the features I was excited about: the attached insert
              to stuff stuff for a pillow, and the pad sleeve. It has no bottom
              insulation, so I thought it would also be a good hammock bag.

              I bought that Insulmat from Trailtalker at the SO Ruck, because you
              all had the good sense to persuade me NOT to take my hammock on the
              AT in January without proper insulation, and I am glad I listened to
              you. This meant I would be sleeping on the ground, but not really
              sleeping if I had to use a Thermarest. (I cannot understand why so
              many people swear by those dang things!)

              However, the trade off meant I was cold anyway. There is some really
              nice hiking in Arkansas just a few hours from my parents' home in NW
              Louisiana and after we finish this with my Dad (he is gravely ill) I
              am going to collect my gear and go up there, before I get tied down
              to another job. The weather will determine whether I am going with
              my beloved HH, or with the Silshelter (which I have finally learned
              to put up properly), and sleeping on the G R O U N D.

              I have the mummy shaped Insulmat, but I sleep on my side, curled up
              and don't need below the knees padding. We'll see what the Big Agnes
              bag looks like. If it doesn't work I am sure REI will take it back.

              Also, thanks for the suggestion about getting Brian to make a
              replacement tarp for the HH. He is making me a HUGE one, which I
              have thoughts of trying to kind of wrap around the HH, the way you
              described to me when we met at the Ruck.

              Marsanne

              >
              > Big Anges (BA) makes two different shaped sleeping bags, one
              > rectangular and one mummy. Which model bag are you getting and is
              it
              > rectangular or mummy?
              >
              > The InsulMat that you have is made by Pacific Outdoors Equipment
              > (POE) and is their mummy shaped 2.5" thick Max-Compact model that
              is
              > an orally inflated pad and has no internal insulation.
              >
              > BA is now listing orally inflated pads WITH internal insulation (
              > http://www.bigagnes.com/str-rempads-aci.shtml ) and surely one of
              > these will fit the pocked of your BA bag and provide some
              insulation.
              > (They won't be available until mid-March) Will they be enough
              > insulation? I don't know, but if its rating is lower than the
              rating
              > of your bag, then it figures to be fine.
              >
            • Ralph Oborn
              Marsanne (not Ed) Sorry, it is a privlege to talk with you also. A sheaf would work nice, but the material would also work as well under or over any other pad
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
                Marsanne (not Ed) Sorry, it is a privlege to talk with you also.

                A sheaf would work nice, but the material would also work as well
                under or over any other pad at least for a dry run. The comfort and
                insulative effects are additive so no mater which order they were
                used doesn't matter except for convenience. I'm kinda big and I need
                the thickest pad I can find. I'm also a real light sleeper when I'm
                out with my scouts (sometimes just the silence wakes me up). I
                always thought it was me, maybe it's the pad. (I just bought a
                hammock, haven't had a chance to use it yet.) Before you sell the
                thermarests, you might want to sty stacking them. (try them at home)

                Ralph


                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "canoetrip_2000"
                <firefly@e...> wrote:
                >
                > YOu make a good point about over inflating the Thermarests, but
                they
                > are just NOT an option for me. I am a side sleeper, and they are
                not
                > thick enough. I appreciate your suggestion, but I have tried
                > EVERYTHING to make Thermarests work for me, including scooping out
                a
                > hip trench. Just misery, period. I own 2 different Thermarests and
                > they are both for sale, CHEAP! So, you think the sheath would
                work
                > on the Insulmat, I am gathering?
                > Marsanne (not Ed)
                >
                >
                > > Ed, is a privlege an honor to make a suggestion to you.
                > >
                > > One reason many people do not sleep well on a thermarest is they
                > > over inflate it, then spend most the night trying not to roll
                off.
                > > After you lay on the thermarest and get situated, you should let
                > out
                > > as much air as possoble so the heavest part of your body (hips)
                > > almost touches the ground. With a 3 inch mattress this would
                > almost
                > > be like sleeping in a hammock. Any added foam pads would of
                course
                > > add compressability and insulative value. If all would not fit
                > into
                > > the sleeve, consider putting the closed cell foam outside on the
                > > tarp etc.
                > >
                > >
                > > Ralph
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "canoetrip_2000"
                > > <firefly@e...> wrote:
                > > > After I did my post a few weeks ago about how I froze on the
                AT,
                > > not
                > > > in a hammock, in a durn Silshelter, someone said the problem
                > might
                > > > have been with the air mattress I was using, instead of the
                old
                > > > sleeping bag. Smart aleck me, I assumed that was wrong. Now,
                > after
                > > > doing research on the insulating properties of the beloved air
                > > > mattress, the InsulMat, I concede that was surely a factor.
                > > >
                > > > This is not directly about hammocking, but since so many of
                you
                > > know
                > > > much more than me about insulation, I wanted to ask the
                question
                > > > here. I hammock when possible, but when not, I need a lot of
                > > > padding. That's why I took the Insulmat on the trail. They
                make
                > > one
                > > > with down inside, but I do not have another job yet and am
                only
                > > > spending necessary money.
                > > >
                > > > So I was wondering, in order to make the InsulMat warmer, if I
                > got
                > > > the thinnest closed cell foam I could find, and made a sheath
                > for
                > > > it. I have ordered a Big Agnes sleeping bag with all the
                > > insulation
                > > > on top, and a sleeve for attachment of a pad. I am sure that
                > > sleeve
                > > > is not big enough to handle a 3 inch mattress fully inflated,
                > > > surrounded by a sheath of closed cell foam, but I could only
                > > > partially inflate the mattress. I have several Thermarests and
                > > have
                > > > never had a good nights sleep on any of them. This is a major
                > > reason
                > > > I switched to hammocking.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
                > > >
                > > > Marsanne
              • Ray Garlington
                ... ideally, you d put the best insulation near your body, particularly if part of your insulation is an air mattress. So, closed cell foam on top of the air
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Oborn"
                  <polecatpop@y...> wrote:
                  > The comfort and
                  > insulative effects are additive so no mater which order they were
                  > used doesn't matter except for convenience.

                  ideally, you'd put the best insulation near your body, particularly
                  if part of your insulation is an air mattress. So, closed cell foam
                  on top of the air mattress would feel warmer, even though opposite
                  configuration has the same the total insulating value.
                • Debra Weisenstein
                  That s a good suggestion, Ralph. The softer the Thermarest, the more comfort, as long as your hip doesn t hit the ground. Unfortunately, it s also a
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 10, 2004
                    That's a good suggestion, Ralph. The softer the Thermarest,
                    the more comfort, as long as your hip doesn't hit the ground.
                    Unfortunately, it's also a compromise as far as insulation
                    goes. The closer your hip is to the ground, the less insulation
                    under it. I sometimes spend the night letting air out of
                    the Thermarest for more comfort, then blowing more air back
                    in for warmth. In cold weather, I'll always blow it up hard
                    for the best insulation. A good compromise could be an air
                    pad inflated softly for comfort and a closed cell foam pad for
                    warmth. I'm thinking of carrying closed cell foam for hammock
                    insulation and a 1/2 length air mat (maybe a child's inflatable
                    pool mat) for ground sleeping comfort.

                    DebW

                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Oborn" <polecatpop@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Ed, is a privlege an honor to make a suggestion to you.
                    >
                    > One reason many people do not sleep well on a thermarest is they
                    > over inflate it, then spend most the night trying not to roll off.
                    > After you lay on the thermarest and get situated, you should let out
                    > as much air as possoble so the heavest part of your body (hips)
                    > almost touches the ground. With a 3 inch mattress this would almost
                    > be like sleeping in a hammock. Any added foam pads would of course
                    > add compressability and insulative value. If all would not fit into
                    > the sleeve, consider putting the closed cell foam outside on the
                    > tarp etc.
                    >
                    >
                    > Ralph
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "canoetrip_2000"
                    > <firefly@e...> wrote:
                    > > After I did my post a few weeks ago about how I froze on the AT,
                    > not
                    > > in a hammock, in a durn Silshelter, someone said the problem might
                    > > have been with the air mattress I was using, instead of the old
                    > > sleeping bag. Smart aleck me, I assumed that was wrong. Now, after
                    > > doing research on the insulating properties of the beloved air
                    > > mattress, the InsulMat, I concede that was surely a factor.
                    > >
                    > > This is not directly about hammocking, but since so many of you
                    > know
                    > > much more than me about insulation, I wanted to ask the question
                    > > here. I hammock when possible, but when not, I need a lot of
                    > > padding. That's why I took the Insulmat on the trail. They make
                    > one
                    > > with down inside, but I do not have another job yet and am only
                    > > spending necessary money.
                    > >
                    > > So I was wondering, in order to make the InsulMat warmer, if I got
                    > > the thinnest closed cell foam I could find, and made a sheath for
                    > > it. I have ordered a Big Agnes sleeping bag with all the
                    > insulation
                    > > on top, and a sleeve for attachment of a pad. I am sure that
                    > sleeve
                    > > is not big enough to handle a 3 inch mattress fully inflated,
                    > > surrounded by a sheath of closed cell foam, but I could only
                    > > partially inflate the mattress. I have several Thermarests and
                    > have
                    > > never had a good nights sleep on any of them. This is a major
                    > reason
                    > > I switched to hammocking.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
                    > >
                    > > Marsanne
                  • canoetrip_2000
                    Stacking is a REALLY good idea, since I have a long thin one and a regular one, and the Big Agnes bag has a sleeve. That might be the perfect solution, so I am
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 10, 2004
                      Stacking is a REALLY good idea, since I have a long thin one and a
                      regular one, and the Big Agnes bag has a sleeve. That might be the
                      perfect solution, so I am taking them off the market until I get a
                      chance to try them. My bag is supposed to be arriving tomorrow, but
                      I am 250 miles away. My Dad has been in very bad health for a couple
                      of years and passed away yesterday. He was actually an invalid, and
                      he lived a long and, until the last few years, mostly very healthy
                      life. He is the one who took me camping for the first time, and gave
                      me my love of adventure. I am sure he will be watching over me from
                      now on.
                      Marsanne


                      when I'm
                      > out with my scouts (sometimes just the silence wakes me up). I
                      > always thought it was me, maybe it's the pad. (I just bought a
                      > hammock, haven't had a chance to use it yet.) Before you sell the
                      > thermarests, you might want to sty stacking them. (try them at
                      home)
                      >
                    • B D
                      Marsanne: We are sorry to hear about your loss. Your love of the outdoors and hammocking is a great tribute to him. My father was the same and I remember
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 10, 2004
                        Marsanne:  We are sorry to hear about your loss.  Your love of the outdoors and hammocking is a great tribute to him.  My father was the same and I remember many times heading out in the woods with him. You are on our thoughts.bd

                        canoetrip_2000 <firefly@...> wrote:
                        Stacking is a REALLY good idea, since I have a long thin one and a
                        regular one, and the Big Agnes bag has a sleeve. That might be the
                        perfect solution, so I am taking them off the market until I get a
                        chance to try them. My bag is supposed to be arriving tomorrow, but
                        I am 250 miles away. My Dad has been in very bad health for a couple
                        of years and passed away yesterday. He was actually an invalid, and
                        he lived a long and, until the last few years, mostly very healthy
                        life. He is the one who took me camping for the first time, and gave
                        me my love of adventure. I am sure he will be watching over me from
                        now on.
                        Marsanne


                        when I'm
                        > out with my scouts (sometimes just the silence wakes me up). I
                        > always thought it was me, maybe it's the pad. (I just bought a
                        > hammock, haven't had a chance to use it yet.)  Before you sell the
                        > thermarests, you might want to sty stacking them. (try them at
                        home)
                        >




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                      • Ed Speer
                        Sorry to hear about your Dad Marsanne. I have many similar memories of my Dad....Ed Moderator, Hammock Camping-L http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hammockcamping
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 10, 2004
                          Sorry to hear about your Dad Marsanne. I have many similar memories of my
                          Dad....Ed
                          Moderator, Hammock Camping-L http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hammockcamping

                          My Dad has been in very bad health for a couple
                          > of years and passed away yesterday.
                          > Marsanne
                          >
                          >
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