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Re: Hand Warmers

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  • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
    They were HOTHANDS-2 by Heatmax; the iron fillings type. Each pouch ... I have used two hand warmers ... Not for camping, but for watching sports. As a kid I
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 6, 2003
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      They were HOTHANDS-2 by Heatmax; the iron fillings type. Each pouch
      > is 2" X 3.5" and weighs 0.6 oz. Has anyone else had a similar
      > experience or tried a different kind?...Ed

      I have used two hand warmers ... Not for camping, but for watching
      sports.

      As a kid I had a hand warmer fueled with lighter fluid. There was
      some kind of combustion going on, it stunk pretty bad, and I mention
      it only because I would NEVER recommend someone use one. They are
      probably illegal by now anyway!

      In the last few years, I have occasionally found sports medicine
      vendors who give away little pouches of liquid with a metalic clicker
      inside the pouch. Click the little disk and the pouch's contents
      begin to crystalize. The warmth lasts about 2-3 hours, and it might
      make a nice way to end the night before the sun comes up.

      I assume the science is that the liquid is a supersaturated solution
      of a salt like AlSO4 (Alum) and the thermal energy of the clicker is
      enough to seed the solution and release the heat of crystalization.
      They can be regenerated by putting the pouch in boiling water for a
      few minutes until all the salt disolves into the liquid and then
      letting them cool slowly. I have cycled them dozens of times.

      I have never used them camping or hiking, but think this ability to
      regenerate would be considerably better for the hiker's use than the
      one time use stuff normally sold to atheletes and trainers.

      Rick
    • Ed Speer
      Yeah, Rick, that reusable part does sound useful. Guess these are not commerically available? Maybe someone else has a source....Ed ... From: geoflyfisher
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 6, 2003
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        Message
        Yeah, Rick, that reusable part does sound useful.  Guess these are not commerically available?  Maybe someone else has a source....Ed
         
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@...> [mailto:geoflyfisher@...]
        Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:19 PM
        To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Hammock Camping Re: Hand Warmers

        They were HOTHANDS-2 by Heatmax; the iron fillings type.  Each pouch
        > is 2" X 3.5" and weighs 0.6 oz.  Has anyone else had a similar
        > experience or tried a different kind?...Ed

        I have used two hand warmers ...  Not for camping, but for watching
        sports. 

        As a kid I had a hand warmer fueled with lighter fluid.  There was
        some kind of combustion going on, it stunk pretty bad, and I mention
        it only because I would NEVER recommend someone use one.  They are
        probably illegal by now anyway!

        In the last few years, I have occasionally found sports medicine
        vendors who give away little pouches of liquid with a metalic clicker
        inside the pouch.  Click the little disk and the pouch's contents
        begin to crystalize.  The warmth lasts about 2-3 hours, and it might
        make a nice way to end the night before the sun comes up. 

        I assume the science is that the liquid is a supersaturated solution
        of a salt like AlSO4  (Alum) and the thermal energy of the clicker is
        enough to seed the solution and release the heat of crystalization. 
        They can be regenerated by putting the pouch in boiling water for a
        few minutes until all the salt disolves into the liquid and then
        letting them cool slowly.  I have cycled them dozens of times. 

        I have never used them camping or hiking, but think this ability to
        regenerate would be considerably better for the hiker's use than the
        one time use stuff normally sold to atheletes and trainers. 

        Rick 


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      • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
        Maybe someone else has a source....Ed ... I did a search... there are several out there, but here is a link to one... A 5 buck experiment might be useful.
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 6, 2003
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          Maybe someone else has a source....Ed
          >
          >
          I did a search... there are several out there, but here is a link to
          one... A 5 buck experiment might be useful.

          http://campingsurvival.com/ezheatreusha.html

          Rick
        • Ed Speer
          TX Rick, I ll check it out...Ed Maybe someone else has a source....Ed ... I did a search... there are several out there, but here is a link to one... A 5 buck
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 6, 2003
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            Message
            TX Rick, I'll check it out...Ed
             
            Maybe someone else has a source....Ed


            I did a search... there are several out there, but here is a link to
            one...  A 5 buck experiment might be useful.

            http://campingsurvival.com/ezheatreusha.html

            Rick
          • J Cornelius
            Some can be re-used - some not - depends on how they are activated - ones I use during hunting season can be re-activated but are not as hot as the first time.
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 6, 2003
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              Some can be re-used – some not – depends on how they are activated – ones I use during hunting season can be re-activated but are not as hot as the first time.

              Jodi

               

              Abnormality IS the normality at this locality!

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ernest Engman <ebengman@...> [mailto:ebengman@...]
              Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:15 AM
              To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Hammock Camping Hand Warmers

               

              Are these warmers single use or multiple use?

              SGT Rock

              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "stephanie <sswaim63@s...>"
              <sswaim63@s...> wrote:
              > I ended up using handwarmers when I used my hammock at the
              > then "record low" (for me) of 30 F. I had bought them on a whim at
              > the last minute when I stopped in a store for some food right
              before
              > getting to the trailhead. That night, shortly after getting in my
              > hammock, I felt my feet getting cold.  I only had a 3/4 Ridgerest
              and
              > part of my body was going to be off it no matter what I did.  I put
              > the hand warmer things in my socks and boy did they work. The
              advice
              > to use 2 pairs of sock and put them between them is good becasue
              > those suckers got too hot. Haveing never used hand warmers before I
              > was pretty surprised by how hot they got and even more so by how
              long
              > they continue to generate heat.  8 hours later they were still hot.
              > So, in my experience they do work.  Although I now just carry two
              > pieces of sleeping pad so that all my body parts can be on them.
              >
              > One of the hand warmer packs set itself off spontaneously in my
              pack
              > and I could feel it against my back, so guess you need to try to
              pack
              > them where they won't be squeezed.
              >
              > stephanie
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <info@s...> wrote:
              > > Yeah Jodi, that's what I'm thinking.  Just wondering if it
              actually
              > > works...Ed


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            • colonelcorn76 <colonelcorn76@yahoo.com>
              Ed, I ve used the same kind. They now come in both 10 & 12 hour versions (don t know if the 12s are new and the 10s are old stock). I haven t had the problems
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 7, 2003
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                Ed,
                I've used the same kind. They now come in both 10 & 12 hour versions
                (don't know if the 12s are new and the 10s are old stock). I haven't
                had the problems you did. They heat up hot & stay very warm through
                the night.

                I do the sock treatment if I'm really really cold or just the
                stomach if I'm just really cold. I tried the hat trick but my head
                got too hot & my feet didn't.

                Try some new ones. You can find them pretty cheap so it's worth an
                experiment or two.

                Jim

                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer <info@s...>"
                <info@s...> wrote:
                > The hand warmers I tried last night failed--they lasted only 3 hrs
                > (not the 10 hrs advertised on the package)and never got really
                hot.
                > They were bought in 1999, so maybe they're too old or something.
                > They were HOTHANDS-2 by Heatmax; the iron fillings type. Each
                pouch
                > is 2" X 3.5" and weighs 0.6 oz. Has anyone else had a similar
                > experience or tried a different kind?...Ed
              • Ed Speer
                Thanks Jim, I will try some new ones. The warmth advantages for something that weights only 0.6 oz is well worth some more testing....Ed Ed, I ve used the
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 7, 2003
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                  Message
                  Thanks Jim, I will try some new ones.  The warmth advantages for something that weights only 0.6 oz is well worth some more testing....Ed
                  Ed,
                  I've used the same kind. They now come in both 10 & 12 hour versions
                  (don't know if the 12s are new and the 10s are old stock). I haven't
                  had the problems you did. They heat up hot & stay very warm through
                  the night.

                  I do the sock treatment if I'm really really cold or just the
                  stomach if I'm just really cold. I tried the hat trick but my head
                  got too hot & my feet didn't.

                  Try some new ones. You can find them pretty cheap so it's worth an
                  experiment or two.

                  Jim

                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer <info@s...>"
                  <info@s...> wrote:
                  > The hand warmers I tried last night failed--they lasted only 3 hrs
                  > (not the 10 hrs advertised on the package)and never got really
                  hot. 
                  > They were bought in 1999, so maybe they're too old or something. 
                  > They were HOTHANDS-2 by Heatmax; the iron fillings type.  Each
                  pouch
                  > is 2" X 3.5" and weighs 0.6 oz.  Has anyone else had a similar
                  > experience or tried a different kind?...Ed

                • stephanie
                  Hi Ed, The handwarmers I used were also HeatMax but they are called foot warmups . They weigh 1.5 oz for a 2 pack in packaging. The instructions say they will
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 8, 2003
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                    Hi Ed,

                    The handwarmers I used were also HeatMax but they are called "foot
                    warmups". They weigh 1.5 oz for a 2 pack in packaging.
                    The instructions say they will have max heat of 110F for 6 hours but they
                    sure felt hotter than that to me. And lasted longer. Now, I remember I had
                    two different sized and so the other ones were probably the "hothands",
                    which an internet search says lasts up to 10 hours at 135 or so, ..I can't
                    find those now though. I'm pretty sure the foot warmer ones were the ones
                    I used though. I saw they had a 5 year shelf life. I'd try again if I were
                    you.

                    The reusable kind of warmers, I'm not positive, but think that they last a
                    much shorter time, like an hour or two. I looked on internet but none of
                    the places I looked at that sell them mentioned how long they last. Which
                    amazes me since that is a very pertinent piece of information and ought to
                    be included in ads for the product!

                    I slept in my hammock again at about 32 degrees last night. It's the crazy
                    crib and used a 3/4 Ridgerest and a 23 inch wide 3/8 inch blue foam pad. I
                    have a 15 degree bag that I use as a quilt with the foot zipped up so my
                    feet are in a foot pocket.My shoulders and hips are wide and I'm tired of
                    trying to stay perfectly positioned to stay on them and keep from getting
                    cold spots. I got another piece I use like a tee where my shoulders are so
                    it wraps around them. I'm going to try the Target 27 inch wide pad. If
                    that doesn't work I'm going to find one of those 40 inch wide pads or else
                    cut and paste other pads together to get more width. The Crib has a pad
                    sleeve but can only accept up to a 23 inch or so pad. I was warm last
                    night though. I tried sleeping in just underwear but then my legs got cold
                    even if they barely touched any part of the hammock...so I ended up
                    sleeping in long underwear. I bought a little cheap thermometer so that i
                    could get an idea of what the temperature actually was when out
                    hiking. Unfortunately I think it's useless as it said it was 20 degrees
                    and I'm sure it wasn't that cold. There was no ice in my water or anything
                    at any rate. maybe it was measuring wind chill as I'm sure the wind chill
                    was 20 degrees or less. I was camped in a valley by a creek and the wind
                    was gusting, calm one minute, then 20 mph or so the next. You could hear it
                    coming up the valley, pretty neat. I had my tarp set up just as a
                    windbreak so I could see the stars, but the wind changed direction and so I
                    was getting it full force sometimes..i didn't get cold so didn't bother to
                    get up and change tarp configuration.

                    I also found out how one falls out of a hammock. I've never had any
                    problem with feeling like I'm going to tip out of a hammock, and kinda
                    didn't understand why people would say that was a concern. Well for some
                    reason,something about the way I entered the hammock last night the first
                    time was different from what I've been doing. Swung my legs in and
                    kaplump!...before I knew what happened I'd flipped over and was on the
                    ground on the other side...pretty comical really. The only bad thing is
                    that the incident tore the bug netting at the foot of the Crib (which is
                    part of a BGT test).

                    stephanie






                    >The hand warmers I tried last night failed--they lasted only 3 hrs
                    >(not the 10 hrs advertised on the package)and never got really hot.
                    >They were bought in 1999, so maybe they're too old or something.
                    >They were HOTHANDS-2 by Heatmax; the iron fillings type. Each pouch
                    i>s 2" X 3.5" and weighs 0.6 oz. Has anyone else had a similar
                    >experience or tried a different kind?...Ed
                  • Ed Speer
                    Thanks Stephanie, I hope to try some new Hot Hands soon. I m very intrigued by the long-lasting, light weight warmers...ED Hi Ed, The handwarmers I used were
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 10, 2003
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                      Message
                      Thanks Stephanie, I hope to try some new Hot Hands soon.  I'm very intrigued by the long-lasting, light weight warmers...ED
                      Hi Ed,

                      The handwarmers I used were also HeatMax but they are called "foot
                      warmups". They weigh 1.5 oz for a 2 pack in packaging.
                      The instructions say they will have max heat of 110F for 6 hours but they
                      sure felt hotter than that to me. And lasted longer. Now, I remember I had
                      two different sized and so the other ones were probably the "hothands",
                      which an internet search says lasts up to 10 hours at 135 or so, ..I can't
                      find those now though.  I'm pretty sure the foot warmer ones were the ones
                      I used though.  I saw they had a 5 year shelf life. I'd try again if I were
                      you.

                      The reusable kind of warmers, I'm not positive, but think that they last a
                      much shorter time, like an hour or two. I looked on internet but none of
                      the places I looked at that sell them mentioned how long they last. Which
                      amazes me since that is a very pertinent piece of information and ought to
                      be included in ads for the product!

                      I slept in my hammock again at about 32 degrees last night. It's the crazy
                      crib and used a 3/4 Ridgerest and a 23 inch wide 3/8 inch blue foam pad.  I
                      have a 15 degree bag that I use as a quilt with the foot zipped up so my
                      feet are in a foot pocket.My shoulders and hips are wide and I'm tired of
                      trying to stay perfectly positioned to stay on them and keep from getting
                      cold spots.  I got another piece I use like a tee where my shoulders are so
                      it wraps around them. I'm going to try the Target 27 inch wide pad.  If
                      that doesn't work I'm going to find one of those 40 inch wide pads or else
                      cut and paste    other pads together to get more width. The Crib has a pad
                      sleeve but can only accept up to a 23 inch or so pad.  I was warm last
                      night though. I tried sleeping in just underwear but then my legs got cold
                      even if they barely touched any part of the hammock...so I ended up
                      sleeping in long underwear. I bought a little cheap thermometer so that i
                      could get an idea of what the temperature actually was when out
                      hiking.  Unfortunately I think it's useless as it said it was 20 degrees
                      and I'm sure it wasn't that cold. There was no ice in my water or anything
                      at any rate. maybe it was measuring wind chill as I'm sure the wind chill
                      was 20 degrees or less.  I was camped in a valley by a creek and the wind
                      was gusting, calm one minute, then 20 mph or so the next. You could hear it
                      coming up the valley, pretty neat.  I had my tarp set up just as a
                      windbreak so I could see the stars, but the wind changed direction and so I
                      was getting it full force sometimes..i didn't get cold so didn't bother to
                      get up and change tarp configuration.

                      I also found out how one falls out of a hammock.  I've never had any
                      problem with feeling like I'm going to tip out of a hammock, and kinda
                      didn't understand why people would say that was a concern.  Well for some
                      reason,something about the way I entered the hammock last night the first
                      time was different from what I've been doing.  Swung my legs in and
                      kaplump!...before I knew what happened I'd flipped over and was on the
                      ground on the other side...pretty comical really.  The only bad thing is
                      that the incident tore the bug netting at the foot of the Crib (which is
                      part of a BGT test).

                      stephanie
                    • colonelcorn76 <colonelcorn76@yahoo.com>
                      Ed/Rick, I decided to check up on the EZHeat reusable heat packs to see if they were an acceptable substitute for the more traditional disposable hand warmers.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 20, 2003
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                        Ed/Rick,

                        I decided to check up on the EZHeat reusable heat packs to see if
                        they were an acceptable substitute for the more traditional
                        disposable hand warmers.

                        I ordered two EZHeat packs from campingsurvival.com and they arrived
                        yesterday. These packs are heavy clear plastic packages 4.75" x 3.5"
                        x .75". They contain a hard white substance and a dark round metal
                        disk about .5" dia. The directions for use are printed on the
                        plastic. It also notes that it contains "sodium acetate (food
                        grade)" and water.

                        To recharge these you are to place it (wrapped in a cloth) in
                        boiling water for 10 minutes. Then after letting it cool you can
                        activate it to release the heat.

                        These appear to be a phase change material that is solid when used
                        and liquefies & turns clear when placed in the boiling water batch.
                        The metal disc then floats in the substance.

                        I boiled one up last night and let it cool overnight. This morning I
                        activated the pouch (you bend the disk through the plastic bag and
                        it magically turns to a crystalline gel that starts to harden as it
                        releases heat --- pretty cool...my guess is that the energy of the
                        disc snapping is enough to kick the liquid material over some
                        threshold that causes the phase change and releases the heat).

                        It heated up rapidly become hot (not extremely hot but not just warm
                        either) to the touch. I placed it between my down jacket and my
                        shirt on my stomach as I would if I were in my sleeping bag. After
                        an hour it was merely warm to the touch and after two it was only
                        marginally warmer than the ambient air (office). After two and a
                        half it was solid and room temperature.

                        My intention was to do a detailed test taking the heat pack's
                        temperature over a period of time to see how it stacked up against
                        traditional metal filings based hand warmers but based on this
                        initial test, it is woefully inadequate for the task of adding extra
                        warmth for a night's sleep in a cold hammock scenario. They will be
                        ok for those time when you want a quick heat pack but not for
                        anything where more than an hour or so of significant warmth is
                        needed.

                        So, you can save yourself the $5 test (although I did buy a neat
                        Lensatic Compass while I was getting these so all is not wasted
                        <grin>).

                        Jim

                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <info@s...> wrote:
                        > TX Rick, I'll check it out...Ed
                        >
                        >
                        > Maybe someone else has a source....Ed
                        > >
                        > >
                        > I did a search... there are several out there, but here is a link
                        to
                        > one... A 5 buck experiment might be useful.
                        >
                        > http://campingsurvival.com/ezheatreusha.html
                        >
                        > Rick
                      • Ed Speer
                        Thanks for the info, Jim. Looks like the search continues.....Ed ... From: colonelcorn76 [mailto:colonelcorn76@yahoo.com] Sent:
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 20, 2003
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                          Message
                          Thanks for the info, Jim.  Looks like the search continues.....Ed
                           
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: colonelcorn76 <colonelcorn76@...> [mailto:colonelcorn76@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:01 AM
                          To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Hammock Camping Re: Hand Warmers

                          Ed/Rick,

                          I decided to check up on the EZHeat reusable heat packs to see if
                          they were an acceptable substitute for the more traditional
                          disposable hand warmers.

                          I ordered two EZHeat packs from campingsurvival.com and they arrived
                          yesterday. These packs are heavy clear plastic packages 4.75" x 3.5"
                          x .75". They contain a hard white substance and a dark round metal
                          disk about .5" dia. The directions for use are printed on the
                          plastic. It also notes that it contains "sodium acetate (food
                          grade)" and water.

                          To recharge these you are to place it (wrapped in a cloth) in
                          boiling water for 10 minutes. Then after letting it cool you can
                          activate it to release the heat.

                          These appear to be a phase change material that is solid when used
                          and liquefies & turns clear when placed in the boiling water batch.
                          The metal disc then floats in the substance.

                          I boiled one up last night and let it cool overnight. This morning I
                          activated the pouch (you bend the disk through the plastic bag and
                          it magically turns to a crystalline gel that starts to harden as it
                          releases heat --- pretty cool...my guess is that the energy of the
                          disc snapping is enough to kick the liquid material over some
                          threshold that causes the phase change and releases the heat).

                          It heated up rapidly become hot (not extremely hot but not just warm
                          either) to the touch. I placed it between my down jacket and my
                          shirt on my stomach as I would if I were in my sleeping bag. After
                          an hour it was merely warm to the touch and after two it was only
                          marginally warmer than the ambient air (office). After two and a
                          half it was solid and room temperature.

                          My intention was to do a detailed test taking the heat pack's
                          temperature over a period of time to see how it stacked up against
                          traditional metal filings based hand warmers but based on this
                          initial test, it is woefully inadequate for the task of adding extra
                          warmth for a night's sleep in a cold hammock scenario. They will be
                          ok for those time when you want a quick heat pack but not for
                          anything where more than an hour or so of significant warmth is
                          needed.

                          So, you can save yourself the $5 test (although I did buy a neat
                          Lensatic Compass while I was getting these so all is not wasted
                          <grin>).

                          Jim

                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <info@s...> wrote:
                          > TX Rick, I'll check it out...Ed

                          >
                          > Maybe someone else has a source....Ed
                          > > 
                          > > 
                          > I did a search... there are several out there, but here is a link
                          to
                          > one...  A 5 buck experiment might be useful.
                          >
                          > http://campingsurvival.com/ezheatreusha.html
                          >
                          > Rick



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                        • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
                          Thanks for the review... Yep, this is the way I remember them too... Not intended to keep you warm all night, but if the toes get cold toward morning, one
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 20, 2003
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                            Thanks for the review...

                            Yep, this is the way I remember them too... Not intended to keep you
                            warm all night, but if the toes get cold toward morning, one could
                            snap one and put it down in the foot of the quilt to warm up a little
                            before getting up. Good news is that you can recharge it while
                            cooking coffee water after getting up. Intended for comfort, not
                            survival.

                            Rick



                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "colonelcorn76
                            <colonelcorn76@y...>" <colonelcorn76@y...> wrote:
                            > Ed/Rick,
                            >
                            > I decided to check up on the EZHeat reusable heat packs to see if
                            > they were an acceptable substitute for the more traditional
                            > disposable hand warmers.
                            >
                            > I ordered two EZHeat packs from campingsurvival.com and they
                            arrived
                            > yesterday. These packs are heavy clear plastic packages 4.75" x
                            3.5"
                            > x .75". They contain a hard white substance and a dark round metal
                            > disk about .5" dia. The directions for use are printed on the
                            > plastic. It also notes that it contains "sodium acetate (food
                            > grade)" and water.
                            >
                            > To recharge these you are to place it (wrapped in a cloth) in
                            > boiling water for 10 minutes. Then after letting it cool you can
                            > activate it to release the heat.
                            >
                            > These appear to be a phase change material that is solid when used
                            > and liquefies & turns clear when placed in the boiling water batch.
                            > The metal disc then floats in the substance.
                            >
                            > I boiled one up last night and let it cool overnight. This morning
                            I
                            > activated the pouch (you bend the disk through the plastic bag and
                            > it magically turns to a crystalline gel that starts to harden as it
                            > releases heat --- pretty cool...my guess is that the energy of the
                            > disc snapping is enough to kick the liquid material over some
                            > threshold that causes the phase change and releases the heat).
                            >
                            > It heated up rapidly become hot (not extremely hot but not just
                            warm
                            > either) to the touch. I placed it between my down jacket and my
                            > shirt on my stomach as I would if I were in my sleeping bag. After
                            > an hour it was merely warm to the touch and after two it was only
                            > marginally warmer than the ambient air (office). After two and a
                            > half it was solid and room temperature.
                            >
                            > My intention was to do a detailed test taking the heat pack's
                            > temperature over a period of time to see how it stacked up against
                            > traditional metal filings based hand warmers but based on this
                            > initial test, it is woefully inadequate for the task of adding
                            extra
                            > warmth for a night's sleep in a cold hammock scenario. They will be
                            > ok for those time when you want a quick heat pack but not for
                            > anything where more than an hour or so of significant warmth is
                            > needed.
                            >
                            > So, you can save yourself the $5 test (although I did buy a neat
                            > Lensatic Compass while I was getting these so all is not wasted
                            > <grin>).
                            >
                            > Jim
                            >
                            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <info@s...> wrote:
                            > > TX Rick, I'll check it out...Ed
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Maybe someone else has a source....Ed
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > I did a search... there are several out there, but here is a link
                            > to
                            > > one... A 5 buck experiment might be useful.
                            > >
                            > > http://campingsurvival.com/ezheatreusha.html
                            > >
                            > > Rick
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