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Re: Bottom Quilt for HH...

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  • wsmurdoch@aol.com
    In a message dated 2/1/03 5:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 2, 2003
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      In a message dated 2/1/03 5:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda <takeda@...> writes:



      Wow! I haven't heard anyone reference Gerry in a long time. I think I got
      my copy of his book (dunno which edition) around 1971.


      I got my copy about the same time.  I own two of his down bags and a Fireside tent bought about the same time, all still going strong.

      Bill Murdoch

    • Matthew Takeda
      I have one of his down bags, too. Still going strong. By the way, has anyone seen this?
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 3, 2003
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        I have one of his down bags, too. Still going strong.

        By the way, has anyone seen this?

        <http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/bc533c91605f6841c12566e6006e0c82/abe00eea82521552c1256ae2002374a4!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,down,mattress>

        <http://www.backcountry-equipment.com/sleeping_pads/exped_downairmattress.html>

        'Tis not the right shape for an HH, or for my homemade hammock, for that
        matter, since I lie down diagonally like in an HH. Sounds similar to
        Stephenson's DAM, and the price is similar, too.

        I've been experimenting with a quilt between the bottom of my hammock and
        the "capsule" that goes around it. Something like this, in a parallelogram
        shape would be nice, especially since it would make a good pad on the
        ground if I had to use the setup as a bivy if there weren't any trees/rocks
        to suspend the hammock from. I guess I'm going to have to experiment by
        making a little baffled quilt with a shell made of coated fabric and with
        all the seams sealed to see if it'll hold air under pressure from my not
        inconsiderable body weight overnight.

        Bill Murdoch wrote:
        >In a message dated 2/1/03 5:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda <
        >takeda@...> writes:
        >
        > > Wow! I haven't heard anyone reference Gerry in a long time. I think I got
        > > my copy of his book (dunno which edition) around 1971.
        >
        >I got my copy about the same time. I own two of his down bags and a Fireside
        >tent bought about the same time, all still going strong.

        - Matthew Takeda
        - the JOAT
      • wsmurdoch@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/4/03 5:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 4, 2003
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          In a message dated 2/4/03 5:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda <takeda@...> writes:


          I guess I'm going to have to experiment by
          making a little baffled quilt with a shell made of coated fabric and with
          all the seams sealed to see if it'll hold air under pressure from my not
          inconsiderable body weight overnight.


          Another possibility is in "The Complete Walker", 2nd ed. 

          "Air Lift of Berkley has recently marketed a new kind of very compact, lightweight air mattress.  Nine strong vinyl tubes -- each inflatable by "a single breath" fit individually into the compartments of a zippered 1.9 oz Rip-stop nylon cover.  This system means you can inflate the outermost tubes hard, and so reduce the danger of rolling off; but to adjust the mattress so your requirements -- and again to deflate it in the morning -- you have 9 separate valve to play with.  (Model 9B: 20 by 42 inches; 1 1/2 pounds; $14.50.  Spare tubes: $1 each.  Model 10-BL: 22 by 72 inches; 2 1/2 pounds; $24.50 {includes patch kit}.  Spare tubes: $2.) Each mattress comes with a sack and spare tube."

          We (They) have 4" wide flat 4 mil polyethylene tubes at work that come in a several hundred foot roll.  I have thought of slipping a 6 ft piece of polyester batting into a 8 ft piece, rolling the ends up like the peanut butter squeeze tubes, and slipping seven or eight into the compartments between parallel seams through two layers of rip-stop nylon.  That would make a fiber filled air mattress.  My guess is that it would more than 50% self inflate.  If one tube leaked, big deal, I would just swap them around.

          Bill Murdoch
        • Ed Speer
          Thanks for the links to the Expend down-filled air mattress, Matthew. I was not aware of these. Like you said they sound similar to the Warmlight DAM, which
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 4, 2003
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            Message
            Thanks for the links to the Expend down-filled air mattress, Matthew.  I was not aware of these.  Like you said they sound similar to the Warmlight DAM, which I have used successfully in my hammock.  Looks like the Expend would work equally as well...Ed
            By the way, has anyone seen this?

            <http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/bc533c91605f6841c12566e6006e0c82/abe00eea82521552c1256ae2002374a4!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,down,mattress>

            <http://www.backcountry-equipment.com/sleeping_pads/exped_downairmattress.html>


            - Matthew Takeda
            - the JOAT
          • starnescr <starnescr@yahoo.com>
            Bill Be carefull. You may be building a better mouse trap. If it works out and the cost is reasonable I would like for you to build me one. Or could you
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 4, 2003
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              Bill

              Be carefull. You may be building a better mouse trap. If it works
              out and the cost is reasonable I would like for you to build me one.
              Or could you supply or tell me where to get these tubes and how to
              seal them off and add a stopper for adding/removing the air.

              Coy Boy

              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, wsmurdoch@a... wrote:
              > In a message dated 2/4/03 5:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              Matthew Takeda <
              > takeda@s...> writes:
              >
              >
              > > I guess I'm going to have to experiment by
              > > making a little baffled quilt with a shell made of coated fabric
              and with
              > > all the seams sealed to see if it'll hold air under pressure
              from my not
              > > inconsiderable body weight overnight.
              >
              > Another possibility is in "The Complete Walker", 2nd ed.
              >
              > "Air Lift of Berkley has recently marketed a new kind of very
              compact,
              > lightweight air mattress. Nine strong vinyl tubes -- each
              inflatable by "a
              > single breath" fit individually into the compartments of a
              zippered 1.9 oz
              > Rip-stop nylon cover. This system means you can inflate the
              outermost tubes
              > hard, and so reduce the danger of rolling off; but to adjust the
              mattress so
              > your requirements -- and again to deflate it in the morning -- you
              have 9
              > separate valve to play with. (Model 9B: 20 by 42 inches; 1 1/2
              pounds;
              > $14.50. Spare tubes: $1 each. Model 10-BL: 22 by 72 inches; 2
              1/2 pounds;
              > $24.50 {includes patch kit}. Spare tubes: $2.) Each mattress
              comes with a
              > sack and spare tube."
              >
              > We (They) have 4" wide flat 4 mil polyethylene tubes at work that
              come in a
              > several hundred foot roll. I have thought of slipping a 6 ft
              piece of
              > polyester batting into a 8 ft piece, rolling the ends up like the
              peanut
              > butter squeeze tubes, and slipping seven or eight into the
              compartments
              > between parallel seams through two layers of rip-stop nylon. That
              would make
              > a fiber filled air mattress. My guess is that it would more than
              50% self
              > inflate. If one tube leaked, big deal, I would just swap them
              around.
              >
              > Bill Murdoch
            • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
              Since it is cold outside and my HH arrives in the UPS today, I keep thinking of ways to add warmth. Ed s use of leaves between the hammock and the pea pod
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                Since it is cold outside and my HH arrives in the UPS today, I keep
                thinking of ways to add warmth.

                Ed's use of leaves between the hammock and the pea pod bottom started
                me thinking of other ways to have a breathable dead air space. I
                began to think of carrying just a nylon shell which velcros to the
                bottom of the hammock and which could be stuffed with dry leaves.

                But what if there are no dry leaves? Well, clothes could work in the
                space under the hammock... or rain gear, or rucksack.

                But if that works, why not just the nylon shell alone hanging a
                couple inches below the hammock - or perhaps two layers which are not
                quite the same size, so they hang away from each other. How about
                sewing "tubes" which self inflate because the bottom cross-section of
                the the tube is a little longer than the top of the tube and the
                bottom hangs down a bit more?

                True, there will be convection currents in the air filled spaces
                which will not work quite as well as space filled with down or other
                insulation... but it might be quite good enough for most cases.

                Has anyone already tried these approaches?? It seems they could add
                considerable warmth for just a tiny bit of weight (1-2 oz of 1.1 oz
                material) and almost no bulk.

                Rick aka Flyfisher <><
              • Ed Speer
                While I haven t tried exactly what you re suggesting Flyfisher, I have noticed that any dead air space is better than none at all. Of course the smaller the
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                  While I haven't tried exactly what you're suggesting Flyfisher, I have noticed that any dead air space is better than none at all.  Of course the smaller the dead air spaces in an insulating thickness, the slower the overall heat loss and the better it works.  For instance skirting around a moble home works wonders keeping out cold wind; thus the house is warmer and heating bills are lower.  However, my limited experience with large dead air spaces beheath my hammock is that they are significantly colder than filling those spaces with insulation.  In fact it is often warmer to eliminate the large dead air space and relpace it with a much thiner insulation.  For instance, when my PeaPod sleeping bag is kept open on the top, it can sag below the bottom of the hammock and create a large dead air space there (6-10" deep).  It can be significantly warmer on my bottom to tuck up the PeaPod to elmininate this dead air space and bring the 0.8"-thick PeaPod insulation right up to the bottom of the hammock. 
                   
                  The Clark Jungle Hammock, a very adequate camping hammock, has 6 large gear pockets beneath the hammock fabric.  The pocket fabric is the same non-breathable fabric as the hammock.  Filling the pockets with gear, clothes, leaves, etc. creates a bottom insulation similar to your ideas (and others posted previously on this List).  While the bottom pockets are handy, they must be fully stuffed with gear or clothes to provide adquate insulation in cool weather; I found that only overstuffing them with leaves worked in below freezing temps.  Thus, in cold temps, the bottom pockets worked best when large dead air spaces were replaced with tiny dead air spaces.
                   
                  The double-bottom idea you mentioned is employed in several hammock models--but I suspect, it's still necessary to add proper insulation in cold conditions.
                   
                  Dead air space is the best insulation---it just takes a hell of a lot of them to be warm!  But even a sleeping bag which has millions of dead air spaces does not stop heat loss--it only slows it down long enough for one to get a good night's sleep.  If you have too few dead air spaces around you, the heat loss is too fast.
                   
                  The various systems most folks are describing on this List employ a combination of items, such as 1) one or more wind blocking fabrics to create a large dead air space, and 2)  one or more insulation layers consisting of millions of tiny dead air spaces.  Some of us also emply a radiant heat reflector fabric...Ed

                  Ed's use of leaves between the hammock and the pea pod bottom started
                  me thinking of other ways to have a breathable dead air space.  I
                  began to think of carrying just a nylon shell which velcros to the
                  bottom of the hammock and which could be stuffed with dry leaves. 

                  But what if there are no dry leaves?  Well, clothes could work in the
                  space under the hammock...  or rain gear, or rucksack.   

                  But if that works, why not just the nylon shell alone hanging a
                  couple inches below the hammock - or perhaps two layers which are not
                  quite the same size, so they hang away from each other.  How about
                  sewing "tubes" which self inflate because the bottom cross-section of
                  the the tube is a little longer than the top of the tube and the
                  bottom hangs down a bit more? 

                  True, there will be convection currents in the air filled spaces
                  which will not work quite as well as space filled with down or other
                  insulation...  but it might be quite good enough for most cases. 

                  Rick aka Flyfisher <><


                • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
                  Very well said as always! I think the improvement made by the insulation is in the break-up of convection currents without adding conduction paths. I m with
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                    Very well said as always! I think the improvement made by the
                    insulation is in the break-up of convection currents without adding
                    conduction paths. I'm with Sgt ROCK in believing that it is very
                    hard to break out the effects of vapor barrier vs reflection on the
                    shiny fabrics/materials.

                    Yes, I had never seen an adequate description of the Clark Hammock,
                    but after I did the patent search on the Hennessy hammock, I just
                    went searching for hammock and tarp. The Clark patent came up and I
                    see from the drawings how the pockets would work just like the idea I
                    posted (and is listed in the patent as doing so). It is certainly
                    not the first time I have had an idea and found out that it has
                    already been patented!!

                    I look forward to getting your book in the mail tomorrow Ed. I look
                    forward to trying out the new hammock this afternoon. I look forward
                    to all the experiments everyone is doing with the cold.

                    Rick aka Flyfisher

                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <info@s...> wrote:
                    > While I haven't tried exactly what you're suggesting Flyfisher, I
                    have
                    > noticed that any dead air space is better than none at all. Of
                    course
                    > the smaller the dead air spaces in an insulating thickness, the
                    slower
                    > the overall heat loss and the better it works. For instance
                    skirting
                    > around a moble home works wonders keeping out cold wind; thus the
                    house
                    > is warmer and heating bills are lower. However, my limited
                    experience
                    > with large dead air spaces beheath my hammock is that they are
                    > significantly colder than filling those spaces with insulation. In
                    fact
                    > it is often warmer to eliminate the large dead air space and
                    relpace it
                    > with a much thiner insulation. For instance, when my PeaPod
                    sleeping
                    > bag is kept open on the top, it can sag below the bottom of the
                    hammock
                    > and create a large dead air space there (6-10" deep). It can be
                    > significantly warmer on my bottom to tuck up the PeaPod to
                    elmininate
                    > this dead air space and bring the 0.8"-thick PeaPod insulation
                    right up
                    > to the bottom of the hammock.
                    >
                    > The Clark Jungle Hammock, a very adequate camping hammock, has 6
                    large
                    > gear pockets beneath the hammock fabric. The pocket fabric is the
                    same
                    > non-breathable fabric as the hammock. Filling the pockets with
                    gear,
                    > clothes, leaves, etc. creates a bottom insulation similar to your
                    ideas
                    > (and others posted previously on this List). While the bottom
                    pockets
                    > are handy, they must be fully stuffed with gear or clothes to
                    provide
                    > adquate insulation in cool weather; I found that only overstuffing
                    them
                    > with leaves worked in below freezing temps. Thus, in cold temps,
                    the
                    > bottom pockets worked best when large dead air spaces were replaced
                    with
                    > tiny dead air spaces.
                    >
                    > The double-bottom idea you mentioned is employed in several hammock
                    > models--but I suspect, it's still necessary to add proper
                    insulation in
                    > cold conditions.
                    >
                    > Dead air space is the best insulation---it just takes a hell of a
                    lot of
                    > them to be warm! But even a sleeping bag which has millions of
                    dead air
                    > spaces does not stop heat loss--it only slows it down long enough
                    for
                    > one to get a good night's sleep. If you have too few dead air
                    spaces
                    > around you, the heat loss is too fast.
                    >
                    > The various systems most folks are describing on this List employ a
                    > combination of items, such as 1) one or more wind blocking fabrics
                    to
                    > create a large dead air space, and 2) one or more insulation layers
                    > consisting of millions of tiny dead air spaces. Some of us also
                    emply a
                    > radiant heat reflector fabric...Ed
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Ed's use of leaves between the hammock and the pea pod bottom
                    started
                    > me thinking of other ways to have a breathable dead air space. I
                    > began to think of carrying just a nylon shell which velcros to the
                    > bottom of the hammock and which could be stuffed with dry leaves.
                    >
                    > But what if there are no dry leaves? Well, clothes could work in
                    the
                    > space under the hammock... or rain gear, or rucksack.
                    >
                    > But if that works, why not just the nylon shell alone hanging a
                    > couple inches below the hammock - or perhaps two layers which are
                    not
                    > quite the same size, so they hang away from each other. How about
                    > sewing "tubes" which self inflate because the bottom cross-section
                    of
                    > the the tube is a little longer than the top of the tube and the
                    > bottom hangs down a bit more?
                    >
                    > True, there will be convection currents in the air filled spaces
                    > which will not work quite as well as space filled with down or
                    other
                    > insulation... but it might be quite good enough for most cases.
                    >
                    > Rick aka Flyfisher <><
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >
                    >
                    > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
                    M=237194.2927557.4274366.2848452/D=egrou
                    > pmail/S=:HM/A=1437215/rand=515177716>
                  • tcoug7 <tcoug7@aol.com>
                    I look forward to all the experiments everyone is doing with the cold. GGGGGoooodddd tttttooo haaaaave youuuu alllloonnnnnng - ;) Tim
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                      <snip>
                      I look forward to all the experiments everyone is doing with the
                      cold.


                      GGGGGoooodddd tttttooo haaaaave youuuu alllloonnnnnng - ;)

                      Tim
                    • tcoug7 <tcoug7@aol.com>
                      ... That s true, but as you know, heat is transferred by either conduction, convection or radiation. Actually in our instance, by all three simutaneously.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "geoflyfisher
                        <geoflyfisher@y...>" <geoflyfisher@y...> wrote:
                        > Very well said as always! I think the improvement made by the
                        > insulation is in the break-up of convection currents without adding
                        > conduction paths.

                        That's true, but as you know, heat is transferred by either
                        conduction, convection or radiation. Actually in our instance, by
                        all three simutaneously. But, by creating millions of 'cells' of
                        dead air space, each one becomes more stable with regards to dynamic
                        changes. The overall effect on a macroscopic view is an insulating
                        layer. But, on a microscopic view, each little cell is doing it's
                        own thing. Just like the fiberglass insulation in you house walls.
                        If it was just to create a dead air space, then there would be no
                        need for the 'pain-in-the-a@#-to-install' stuff. Rather, by creating
                        millions of little dead air spaces, a much more stable layer is
                        created - which translates into much greater resistance to changein
                        temperature.

                        PS - I'm for the vapor layer. Radiant heat loss is real. It may be
                        least important, but we are really trying to capture all heat that's
                        available - so we sleep better. In my tests, I feel it's made a
                        difference.
                      • debweisenstein <dweisens@aer.com>
                        Ed, what about an easy modification of the PeaPod to add mitten hooks or toggles to the inside of the Peapod along the edges of the hammock so that the PeaPod
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 6, 2003
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                          Ed, what about an easy modification of the PeaPod to add mitten
                          hooks or toggles to the inside of the Peapod along the edges of the
                          hammock so that the PeaPod could be left open but attached to the
                          hammock in a way that it couldn't sag. This would mimick the
                          underquilts people are designing for the Hennessey and provide
                          more flexibility. Also, do you ever keep the PeaPod attached to
                          your hammock and stuff the whole thing together? Or roll up the
                          hammock with foam pad inside?

                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <info@s...> wrote:
                          > However, my limited experience
                          > with large dead air spaces beheath my hammock is that they are
                          > significantly colder than filling those spaces with insulation. In fact
                          > it is often warmer to eliminate the large dead air space and relpace it
                          > with a much thiner insulation. For instance, when my PeaPod sleeping
                          > bag is kept open on the top, it can sag below the bottom of the hammock
                          > and create a large dead air space there (6-10" deep). It can be
                          > significantly warmer on my bottom to tuck up the PeaPod to elmininate
                          > this dead air space and bring the 0.8"-thick PeaPod insulation right up
                          > to the bottom of the hammock.
                          >

                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          >
                          >
                          > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=237194.2927557.4274366.2848452/D=egrou
                          > pmail/S=:HM/A=1437215/rand=515177716>
                        • Ed Speer
                          Good thinking Deb, but one can easily position the PeaPod the prevent this sag. Since the PeaPod and my hammock both have Velcro along the long edges, the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 6, 2003
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                            Message
                            Good thinking Deb, but one can easily position the PeaPod the prevent this sag.  Since the PeaPod and my hammock both have Velcro along the long edges, the PeaPod can be Velcroed to one edge of the hammock and the other edge can be tucked inside the hammock far enought to eliminate the unwanted air space bleow.  Of course when the PePod is fully wrapped around the hammock, there is no botom sag anyway.
                             
                            And yes, I often keep the PeaPod and hammock together and stuff them together into my pack.  On a recent trip, my partner used the Moonbow Gearskin pack which easily allowed him to stuff the PeaPod, hammock, sleep pads, and sleeping bag all together into the pack at the same time--it was very simple and took only 1-2 minutes from take down to be fully packed!  Sure beats stuffing gear into tiny stuff bags on cold mornings!...Ed
                            Ed, what about an easy modification of the PeaPod to add mitten
                            hooks or toggles to the inside of the Peapod along the edges of the
                            hammock so that the PeaPod could be left open but attached to the
                            hammock in a way that it couldn't sag.  This would mimick the
                            underquilts people are designing for the Hennessey and provide
                            more flexibility.  Also, do you ever keep the PeaPod attached to
                            your hammock and stuff the whole thing together?  Or roll up the
                            hammock with foam pad inside?
                          • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
                            After my post yesterday... Thanks to all who responded with great ideas, I got an email off list pointing me to the Garlington insulator, a taco shell
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 6, 2003
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                              After my post yesterday... Thanks to all who responded with great
                              ideas, I got an email off list pointing me to the Garlington
                              insulator, a "taco" shell hanging below the hammock. R. Garlington
                              (first name unknown to me) has a site describing the contraption at:

                              http://www.mindspring.com/~rgarling/Insulator.htm

                              I built one last night, having a bit of silnylon on hand for a
                              project I will not do, and hope to test it soon in our cold weather.

                              Ed mentioned in his post that insulation is inefficient if a lot of
                              sag exists between the hammock and the insulation. Great point, that
                              I had forgotten. Since the warmth will be due to my body heating up
                              the insulation area, a large space will take more energy to heat than
                              a rather small space. (Vpor barrier warming methods are the ultamet
                              end of this line of reasoning.) But having a couple inches of dead
                              space can take less energy than having many inches of dead space...
                              if there is little gradient across that dead space... ie if the space
                              is not filled with many little spaces like down.

                              The other problem is movement in the space. The more the space moves
                              around, the more mixing occurs, and the more heat is lost by the
                              enhanced convection.

                              The Garlington insulator attempts to minimize this motion and a
                              uniformly medium thick layer of dead space by sandwitching plastic
                              gargage bags, partly inflated with air between the hammock and a
                              silnylon shell.

                              Well, its a great theory. And it is going to be cold tonight...
                              maybe too cold at 10, but I may get a data point tonight or soon.

                              Rick
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