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RE: Bottom Quilt for HH...

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  • Matthew Takeda
    Wow! I haven t heard anyone reference Gerry in a long time. I think I got my copy of his book (dunno which edition) around 1971. ... - Matthew Takeda - the
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 31, 2003
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      Wow! I haven't heard anyone reference Gerry in a long time. I think I got
      my copy of his book (dunno which edition) around 1971.

      Bill Murdoch wrote:
      >Gerry Cunningham in "Light Weight Camping Equipment and How to Make It" 4th
      >ed. page 117 ...

      - Matthew Takeda
      - the JOAT
    • wsmurdoch@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/1/03 5:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2003
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        In a message dated 2/1/03 5:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda <takeda@...> writes:



        Wow! I haven't heard anyone reference Gerry in a long time. I think I got
        my copy of his book (dunno which edition) around 1971.


        I got my copy about the same time.  I own two of his down bags and a Fireside tent bought about the same time, all still going strong.

        Bill Murdoch

      • Matthew Takeda
        I have one of his down bags, too. Still going strong. By the way, has anyone seen this?
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 3, 2003
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          I have one of his down bags, too. Still going strong.

          By the way, has anyone seen this?

          <http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/bc533c91605f6841c12566e6006e0c82/abe00eea82521552c1256ae2002374a4!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,down,mattress>

          <http://www.backcountry-equipment.com/sleeping_pads/exped_downairmattress.html>

          'Tis not the right shape for an HH, or for my homemade hammock, for that
          matter, since I lie down diagonally like in an HH. Sounds similar to
          Stephenson's DAM, and the price is similar, too.

          I've been experimenting with a quilt between the bottom of my hammock and
          the "capsule" that goes around it. Something like this, in a parallelogram
          shape would be nice, especially since it would make a good pad on the
          ground if I had to use the setup as a bivy if there weren't any trees/rocks
          to suspend the hammock from. I guess I'm going to have to experiment by
          making a little baffled quilt with a shell made of coated fabric and with
          all the seams sealed to see if it'll hold air under pressure from my not
          inconsiderable body weight overnight.

          Bill Murdoch wrote:
          >In a message dated 2/1/03 5:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda <
          >takeda@...> writes:
          >
          > > Wow! I haven't heard anyone reference Gerry in a long time. I think I got
          > > my copy of his book (dunno which edition) around 1971.
          >
          >I got my copy about the same time. I own two of his down bags and a Fireside
          >tent bought about the same time, all still going strong.

          - Matthew Takeda
          - the JOAT
        • wsmurdoch@aol.com
          In a message dated 2/4/03 5:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 4, 2003
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            In a message dated 2/4/03 5:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Takeda <takeda@...> writes:


            I guess I'm going to have to experiment by
            making a little baffled quilt with a shell made of coated fabric and with
            all the seams sealed to see if it'll hold air under pressure from my not
            inconsiderable body weight overnight.


            Another possibility is in "The Complete Walker", 2nd ed. 

            "Air Lift of Berkley has recently marketed a new kind of very compact, lightweight air mattress.  Nine strong vinyl tubes -- each inflatable by "a single breath" fit individually into the compartments of a zippered 1.9 oz Rip-stop nylon cover.  This system means you can inflate the outermost tubes hard, and so reduce the danger of rolling off; but to adjust the mattress so your requirements -- and again to deflate it in the morning -- you have 9 separate valve to play with.  (Model 9B: 20 by 42 inches; 1 1/2 pounds; $14.50.  Spare tubes: $1 each.  Model 10-BL: 22 by 72 inches; 2 1/2 pounds; $24.50 {includes patch kit}.  Spare tubes: $2.) Each mattress comes with a sack and spare tube."

            We (They) have 4" wide flat 4 mil polyethylene tubes at work that come in a several hundred foot roll.  I have thought of slipping a 6 ft piece of polyester batting into a 8 ft piece, rolling the ends up like the peanut butter squeeze tubes, and slipping seven or eight into the compartments between parallel seams through two layers of rip-stop nylon.  That would make a fiber filled air mattress.  My guess is that it would more than 50% self inflate.  If one tube leaked, big deal, I would just swap them around.

            Bill Murdoch
          • Ed Speer
            Thanks for the links to the Expend down-filled air mattress, Matthew. I was not aware of these. Like you said they sound similar to the Warmlight DAM, which
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 4, 2003
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              Thanks for the links to the Expend down-filled air mattress, Matthew.  I was not aware of these.  Like you said they sound similar to the Warmlight DAM, which I have used successfully in my hammock.  Looks like the Expend would work equally as well...Ed
              By the way, has anyone seen this?

              <http://www.exped.com/exped/web/exped_homepage.nsf/bc533c91605f6841c12566e6006e0c82/abe00eea82521552c1256ae2002374a4!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,down,mattress>

              <http://www.backcountry-equipment.com/sleeping_pads/exped_downairmattress.html>


              - Matthew Takeda
              - the JOAT
            • starnescr <starnescr@yahoo.com>
              Bill Be carefull. You may be building a better mouse trap. If it works out and the cost is reasonable I would like for you to build me one. Or could you
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 4, 2003
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                Bill

                Be carefull. You may be building a better mouse trap. If it works
                out and the cost is reasonable I would like for you to build me one.
                Or could you supply or tell me where to get these tubes and how to
                seal them off and add a stopper for adding/removing the air.

                Coy Boy

                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, wsmurdoch@a... wrote:
                > In a message dated 2/4/03 5:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                Matthew Takeda <
                > takeda@s...> writes:
                >
                >
                > > I guess I'm going to have to experiment by
                > > making a little baffled quilt with a shell made of coated fabric
                and with
                > > all the seams sealed to see if it'll hold air under pressure
                from my not
                > > inconsiderable body weight overnight.
                >
                > Another possibility is in "The Complete Walker", 2nd ed.
                >
                > "Air Lift of Berkley has recently marketed a new kind of very
                compact,
                > lightweight air mattress. Nine strong vinyl tubes -- each
                inflatable by "a
                > single breath" fit individually into the compartments of a
                zippered 1.9 oz
                > Rip-stop nylon cover. This system means you can inflate the
                outermost tubes
                > hard, and so reduce the danger of rolling off; but to adjust the
                mattress so
                > your requirements -- and again to deflate it in the morning -- you
                have 9
                > separate valve to play with. (Model 9B: 20 by 42 inches; 1 1/2
                pounds;
                > $14.50. Spare tubes: $1 each. Model 10-BL: 22 by 72 inches; 2
                1/2 pounds;
                > $24.50 {includes patch kit}. Spare tubes: $2.) Each mattress
                comes with a
                > sack and spare tube."
                >
                > We (They) have 4" wide flat 4 mil polyethylene tubes at work that
                come in a
                > several hundred foot roll. I have thought of slipping a 6 ft
                piece of
                > polyester batting into a 8 ft piece, rolling the ends up like the
                peanut
                > butter squeeze tubes, and slipping seven or eight into the
                compartments
                > between parallel seams through two layers of rip-stop nylon. That
                would make
                > a fiber filled air mattress. My guess is that it would more than
                50% self
                > inflate. If one tube leaked, big deal, I would just swap them
                around.
                >
                > Bill Murdoch
              • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
                Since it is cold outside and my HH arrives in the UPS today, I keep thinking of ways to add warmth. Ed s use of leaves between the hammock and the pea pod
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                  Since it is cold outside and my HH arrives in the UPS today, I keep
                  thinking of ways to add warmth.

                  Ed's use of leaves between the hammock and the pea pod bottom started
                  me thinking of other ways to have a breathable dead air space. I
                  began to think of carrying just a nylon shell which velcros to the
                  bottom of the hammock and which could be stuffed with dry leaves.

                  But what if there are no dry leaves? Well, clothes could work in the
                  space under the hammock... or rain gear, or rucksack.

                  But if that works, why not just the nylon shell alone hanging a
                  couple inches below the hammock - or perhaps two layers which are not
                  quite the same size, so they hang away from each other. How about
                  sewing "tubes" which self inflate because the bottom cross-section of
                  the the tube is a little longer than the top of the tube and the
                  bottom hangs down a bit more?

                  True, there will be convection currents in the air filled spaces
                  which will not work quite as well as space filled with down or other
                  insulation... but it might be quite good enough for most cases.

                  Has anyone already tried these approaches?? It seems they could add
                  considerable warmth for just a tiny bit of weight (1-2 oz of 1.1 oz
                  material) and almost no bulk.

                  Rick aka Flyfisher <><
                • Ed Speer
                  While I haven t tried exactly what you re suggesting Flyfisher, I have noticed that any dead air space is better than none at all. Of course the smaller the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                    While I haven't tried exactly what you're suggesting Flyfisher, I have noticed that any dead air space is better than none at all.  Of course the smaller the dead air spaces in an insulating thickness, the slower the overall heat loss and the better it works.  For instance skirting around a moble home works wonders keeping out cold wind; thus the house is warmer and heating bills are lower.  However, my limited experience with large dead air spaces beheath my hammock is that they are significantly colder than filling those spaces with insulation.  In fact it is often warmer to eliminate the large dead air space and relpace it with a much thiner insulation.  For instance, when my PeaPod sleeping bag is kept open on the top, it can sag below the bottom of the hammock and create a large dead air space there (6-10" deep).  It can be significantly warmer on my bottom to tuck up the PeaPod to elmininate this dead air space and bring the 0.8"-thick PeaPod insulation right up to the bottom of the hammock. 
                     
                    The Clark Jungle Hammock, a very adequate camping hammock, has 6 large gear pockets beneath the hammock fabric.  The pocket fabric is the same non-breathable fabric as the hammock.  Filling the pockets with gear, clothes, leaves, etc. creates a bottom insulation similar to your ideas (and others posted previously on this List).  While the bottom pockets are handy, they must be fully stuffed with gear or clothes to provide adquate insulation in cool weather; I found that only overstuffing them with leaves worked in below freezing temps.  Thus, in cold temps, the bottom pockets worked best when large dead air spaces were replaced with tiny dead air spaces.
                     
                    The double-bottom idea you mentioned is employed in several hammock models--but I suspect, it's still necessary to add proper insulation in cold conditions.
                     
                    Dead air space is the best insulation---it just takes a hell of a lot of them to be warm!  But even a sleeping bag which has millions of dead air spaces does not stop heat loss--it only slows it down long enough for one to get a good night's sleep.  If you have too few dead air spaces around you, the heat loss is too fast.
                     
                    The various systems most folks are describing on this List employ a combination of items, such as 1) one or more wind blocking fabrics to create a large dead air space, and 2)  one or more insulation layers consisting of millions of tiny dead air spaces.  Some of us also emply a radiant heat reflector fabric...Ed

                    Ed's use of leaves between the hammock and the pea pod bottom started
                    me thinking of other ways to have a breathable dead air space.  I
                    began to think of carrying just a nylon shell which velcros to the
                    bottom of the hammock and which could be stuffed with dry leaves. 

                    But what if there are no dry leaves?  Well, clothes could work in the
                    space under the hammock...  or rain gear, or rucksack.   

                    But if that works, why not just the nylon shell alone hanging a
                    couple inches below the hammock - or perhaps two layers which are not
                    quite the same size, so they hang away from each other.  How about
                    sewing "tubes" which self inflate because the bottom cross-section of
                    the the tube is a little longer than the top of the tube and the
                    bottom hangs down a bit more? 

                    True, there will be convection currents in the air filled spaces
                    which will not work quite as well as space filled with down or other
                    insulation...  but it might be quite good enough for most cases. 

                    Rick aka Flyfisher <><


                  • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
                    Very well said as always! I think the improvement made by the insulation is in the break-up of convection currents without adding conduction paths. I m with
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                      Very well said as always! I think the improvement made by the
                      insulation is in the break-up of convection currents without adding
                      conduction paths. I'm with Sgt ROCK in believing that it is very
                      hard to break out the effects of vapor barrier vs reflection on the
                      shiny fabrics/materials.

                      Yes, I had never seen an adequate description of the Clark Hammock,
                      but after I did the patent search on the Hennessy hammock, I just
                      went searching for hammock and tarp. The Clark patent came up and I
                      see from the drawings how the pockets would work just like the idea I
                      posted (and is listed in the patent as doing so). It is certainly
                      not the first time I have had an idea and found out that it has
                      already been patented!!

                      I look forward to getting your book in the mail tomorrow Ed. I look
                      forward to trying out the new hammock this afternoon. I look forward
                      to all the experiments everyone is doing with the cold.

                      Rick aka Flyfisher

                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <info@s...> wrote:
                      > While I haven't tried exactly what you're suggesting Flyfisher, I
                      have
                      > noticed that any dead air space is better than none at all. Of
                      course
                      > the smaller the dead air spaces in an insulating thickness, the
                      slower
                      > the overall heat loss and the better it works. For instance
                      skirting
                      > around a moble home works wonders keeping out cold wind; thus the
                      house
                      > is warmer and heating bills are lower. However, my limited
                      experience
                      > with large dead air spaces beheath my hammock is that they are
                      > significantly colder than filling those spaces with insulation. In
                      fact
                      > it is often warmer to eliminate the large dead air space and
                      relpace it
                      > with a much thiner insulation. For instance, when my PeaPod
                      sleeping
                      > bag is kept open on the top, it can sag below the bottom of the
                      hammock
                      > and create a large dead air space there (6-10" deep). It can be
                      > significantly warmer on my bottom to tuck up the PeaPod to
                      elmininate
                      > this dead air space and bring the 0.8"-thick PeaPod insulation
                      right up
                      > to the bottom of the hammock.
                      >
                      > The Clark Jungle Hammock, a very adequate camping hammock, has 6
                      large
                      > gear pockets beneath the hammock fabric. The pocket fabric is the
                      same
                      > non-breathable fabric as the hammock. Filling the pockets with
                      gear,
                      > clothes, leaves, etc. creates a bottom insulation similar to your
                      ideas
                      > (and others posted previously on this List). While the bottom
                      pockets
                      > are handy, they must be fully stuffed with gear or clothes to
                      provide
                      > adquate insulation in cool weather; I found that only overstuffing
                      them
                      > with leaves worked in below freezing temps. Thus, in cold temps,
                      the
                      > bottom pockets worked best when large dead air spaces were replaced
                      with
                      > tiny dead air spaces.
                      >
                      > The double-bottom idea you mentioned is employed in several hammock
                      > models--but I suspect, it's still necessary to add proper
                      insulation in
                      > cold conditions.
                      >
                      > Dead air space is the best insulation---it just takes a hell of a
                      lot of
                      > them to be warm! But even a sleeping bag which has millions of
                      dead air
                      > spaces does not stop heat loss--it only slows it down long enough
                      for
                      > one to get a good night's sleep. If you have too few dead air
                      spaces
                      > around you, the heat loss is too fast.
                      >
                      > The various systems most folks are describing on this List employ a
                      > combination of items, such as 1) one or more wind blocking fabrics
                      to
                      > create a large dead air space, and 2) one or more insulation layers
                      > consisting of millions of tiny dead air spaces. Some of us also
                      emply a
                      > radiant heat reflector fabric...Ed
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Ed's use of leaves between the hammock and the pea pod bottom
                      started
                      > me thinking of other ways to have a breathable dead air space. I
                      > began to think of carrying just a nylon shell which velcros to the
                      > bottom of the hammock and which could be stuffed with dry leaves.
                      >
                      > But what if there are no dry leaves? Well, clothes could work in
                      the
                      > space under the hammock... or rain gear, or rucksack.
                      >
                      > But if that works, why not just the nylon shell alone hanging a
                      > couple inches below the hammock - or perhaps two layers which are
                      not
                      > quite the same size, so they hang away from each other. How about
                      > sewing "tubes" which self inflate because the bottom cross-section
                      of
                      > the the tube is a little longer than the top of the tube and the
                      > bottom hangs down a bit more?
                      >
                      > True, there will be convection currents in the air filled spaces
                      > which will not work quite as well as space filled with down or
                      other
                      > insulation... but it might be quite good enough for most cases.
                      >
                      > Rick aka Flyfisher <><
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >
                      >
                      > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
                      M=237194.2927557.4274366.2848452/D=egrou
                      > pmail/S=:HM/A=1437215/rand=515177716>
                    • tcoug7 <tcoug7@aol.com>
                      I look forward to all the experiments everyone is doing with the cold. GGGGGoooodddd tttttooo haaaaave youuuu alllloonnnnnng - ;) Tim
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                        <snip>
                        I look forward to all the experiments everyone is doing with the
                        cold.


                        GGGGGoooodddd tttttooo haaaaave youuuu alllloonnnnnng - ;)

                        Tim
                      • tcoug7 <tcoug7@aol.com>
                        ... That s true, but as you know, heat is transferred by either conduction, convection or radiation. Actually in our instance, by all three simutaneously.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 5, 2003
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                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "geoflyfisher
                          <geoflyfisher@y...>" <geoflyfisher@y...> wrote:
                          > Very well said as always! I think the improvement made by the
                          > insulation is in the break-up of convection currents without adding
                          > conduction paths.

                          That's true, but as you know, heat is transferred by either
                          conduction, convection or radiation. Actually in our instance, by
                          all three simutaneously. But, by creating millions of 'cells' of
                          dead air space, each one becomes more stable with regards to dynamic
                          changes. The overall effect on a macroscopic view is an insulating
                          layer. But, on a microscopic view, each little cell is doing it's
                          own thing. Just like the fiberglass insulation in you house walls.
                          If it was just to create a dead air space, then there would be no
                          need for the 'pain-in-the-a@#-to-install' stuff. Rather, by creating
                          millions of little dead air spaces, a much more stable layer is
                          created - which translates into much greater resistance to changein
                          temperature.

                          PS - I'm for the vapor layer. Radiant heat loss is real. It may be
                          least important, but we are really trying to capture all heat that's
                          available - so we sleep better. In my tests, I feel it's made a
                          difference.
                        • debweisenstein <dweisens@aer.com>
                          Ed, what about an easy modification of the PeaPod to add mitten hooks or toggles to the inside of the Peapod along the edges of the hammock so that the PeaPod
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 6, 2003
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                            Ed, what about an easy modification of the PeaPod to add mitten
                            hooks or toggles to the inside of the Peapod along the edges of the
                            hammock so that the PeaPod could be left open but attached to the
                            hammock in a way that it couldn't sag. This would mimick the
                            underquilts people are designing for the Hennessey and provide
                            more flexibility. Also, do you ever keep the PeaPod attached to
                            your hammock and stuff the whole thing together? Or roll up the
                            hammock with foam pad inside?

                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <info@s...> wrote:
                            > However, my limited experience
                            > with large dead air spaces beheath my hammock is that they are
                            > significantly colder than filling those spaces with insulation. In fact
                            > it is often warmer to eliminate the large dead air space and relpace it
                            > with a much thiner insulation. For instance, when my PeaPod sleeping
                            > bag is kept open on the top, it can sag below the bottom of the hammock
                            > and create a large dead air space there (6-10" deep). It can be
                            > significantly warmer on my bottom to tuck up the PeaPod to elmininate
                            > this dead air space and bring the 0.8"-thick PeaPod insulation right up
                            > to the bottom of the hammock.
                            >

                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            >
                            >
                            > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=237194.2927557.4274366.2848452/D=egrou
                            > pmail/S=:HM/A=1437215/rand=515177716>
                          • Ed Speer
                            Good thinking Deb, but one can easily position the PeaPod the prevent this sag. Since the PeaPod and my hammock both have Velcro along the long edges, the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 6, 2003
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                              Message
                              Good thinking Deb, but one can easily position the PeaPod the prevent this sag.  Since the PeaPod and my hammock both have Velcro along the long edges, the PeaPod can be Velcroed to one edge of the hammock and the other edge can be tucked inside the hammock far enought to eliminate the unwanted air space bleow.  Of course when the PePod is fully wrapped around the hammock, there is no botom sag anyway.
                               
                              And yes, I often keep the PeaPod and hammock together and stuff them together into my pack.  On a recent trip, my partner used the Moonbow Gearskin pack which easily allowed him to stuff the PeaPod, hammock, sleep pads, and sleeping bag all together into the pack at the same time--it was very simple and took only 1-2 minutes from take down to be fully packed!  Sure beats stuffing gear into tiny stuff bags on cold mornings!...Ed
                              Ed, what about an easy modification of the PeaPod to add mitten
                              hooks or toggles to the inside of the Peapod along the edges of the
                              hammock so that the PeaPod could be left open but attached to the
                              hammock in a way that it couldn't sag.  This would mimick the
                              underquilts people are designing for the Hennessey and provide
                              more flexibility.  Also, do you ever keep the PeaPod attached to
                              your hammock and stuff the whole thing together?  Or roll up the
                              hammock with foam pad inside?
                            • geoflyfisher <geoflyfisher@yahoo.com>
                              After my post yesterday... Thanks to all who responded with great ideas, I got an email off list pointing me to the Garlington insulator, a taco shell
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 6, 2003
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                                After my post yesterday... Thanks to all who responded with great
                                ideas, I got an email off list pointing me to the Garlington
                                insulator, a "taco" shell hanging below the hammock. R. Garlington
                                (first name unknown to me) has a site describing the contraption at:

                                http://www.mindspring.com/~rgarling/Insulator.htm

                                I built one last night, having a bit of silnylon on hand for a
                                project I will not do, and hope to test it soon in our cold weather.

                                Ed mentioned in his post that insulation is inefficient if a lot of
                                sag exists between the hammock and the insulation. Great point, that
                                I had forgotten. Since the warmth will be due to my body heating up
                                the insulation area, a large space will take more energy to heat than
                                a rather small space. (Vpor barrier warming methods are the ultamet
                                end of this line of reasoning.) But having a couple inches of dead
                                space can take less energy than having many inches of dead space...
                                if there is little gradient across that dead space... ie if the space
                                is not filled with many little spaces like down.

                                The other problem is movement in the space. The more the space moves
                                around, the more mixing occurs, and the more heat is lost by the
                                enhanced convection.

                                The Garlington insulator attempts to minimize this motion and a
                                uniformly medium thick layer of dead space by sandwitching plastic
                                gargage bags, partly inflated with air between the hammock and a
                                silnylon shell.

                                Well, its a great theory. And it is going to be cold tonight...
                                maybe too cold at 10, but I may get a data point tonight or soon.

                                Rick
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