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Re: "Staying Warm" in Hammock Wiki

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  • Risk
    You are allowed, encouraged, and asked to make any changes, additions, or comments to the page as you see fit. It is *our* project. So, if you want to be more
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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      You are allowed, encouraged, and asked to make any changes, additions,
      or comments to the page as you see fit. It is *our* project.

      So, if you want to be more famous, just add something.

      (I did take your posted yahoo picture and added it to my server so
      Wiki can get to it. Thanks in advance for not minding my use of it in
      my post.)

      Rick

      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "ciyd01" <ciyd@a...> wrote:
      > Wow, my first underquilt prototype is now famous! Nice additions
      > Rick.
      >
      > ciyd
      >
      > > I made a few changes and modifications to the
      > > Staying WArm page on Hammock Wiki:
      > >
      > > http://www.imrisk.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl?Staying_Warm
    • Bill Fornshell
      Hi Risk, A lot of people talk about using the Target Blue Closed Cell Pad. Do you have any idea what the R value of this pad is? I have had great success
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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        Hi Risk, A lot of people talk about using the Target
        "Blue Closed Cell Pad." Do you have any idea what the
        "R" value of this pad is?

        I have had great success staying warm in my hammock
        (down to 30 degrees)(this is south Texas) by just
        using a Therm-A-Rest "Standard" full size pad and a
        decent sleeping bag. I expect this combination and my
        long underwear will keep me much warmer without all
        the other extra stuff you are playing with. I believe
        in the KISS theory and hope to test this during Ed's
        Christmas Hike. Bill

        --- Risk <ra1@...> wrote:
        > You are allowed, encouraged, and asked to make any
        > changes, additions,
        > or comments to the page as you see fit. It is *our*
        > project.
        >
        > So, if you want to be more famous, just add
        > something.
        >
        > (I did take your posted yahoo picture and added it
        > to my server so
        > Wiki can get to it. Thanks in advance for not
        > minding my use of it in
        > my post.)
        >
        > Rick
        >
        > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "ciyd01"
        > <ciyd@a...> wrote:
        > > Wow, my first underquilt prototype is now famous!
        > Nice additions
        > > Rick.
        > >
        > > ciyd
        > >
        > > > I made a few changes and modifications to the
        > > > Staying WArm page on Hammock Wiki:
        > > >
        > > >
        > http://www.imrisk.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl?Staying_Warm
        >
        >

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      • ra1@imrisk.com
        Hi Bill, Replies in line... ... About the same as the RidgeRest, or a bit less... Ridge Rest is 2.6. I calculated the Target pad at something like 2.5. I
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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          Hi Bill,

          Replies in line...

          Quoting Bill Fornshell:

          > Hi Risk, A lot of people talk about using the Target
          > "Blue Closed Cell Pad." Do you have any idea what the
          > "R" value of this pad is?

          About the same as the RidgeRest, or a bit less... Ridge Rest is 2.6. I
          calculated the Target pad at something like 2.5. I will see if the package
          says, though I doubt it.
          >
          > I have had great success staying warm in my hammock
          > (down to 30 degrees)(this is south Texas) by just
          > using a Therm-A-Rest "Standard" full size pad and a
          > decent sleeping bag. I expect this combination and my
          > long underwear will keep me much warmer without all
          > the other extra stuff you are playing with. I believe
          > in the KISS theory and hope to test this during Ed's
          > Christmas Hike. Bill

          I think you can stay reasonable warm with that set up as long as you can stay on
          top of the thermarest. My shoulders would get pretty cold in a Speer type
          hammock without a pad that rolled up around my shoulders, but using a flatter
          hammock like the HH you one probably do OK with that. I've used the standard
          Thermorest 72 incher in a HH.

          And if you get cold, you can always bail to the ground with that set-up. I can
          too, but it seems like a nice challenge to see how low a temperature I can stay
          comfortable in and still stay in the hammock.

          Here's why I consider other alternatives: That bugger of yours (I have one too)
          weighs 2 pounds and 11 ounces. My pad and TravelPod weigh a little under a
          pound and will keep me warm, not just down to 30 but down to at least 25 in the
          wind. How much lower, I don't know yet. I admit to being a gram-weenie. The
          extra pound and 11 is an obvious target.

          What I am describing ("all the extra stuff")is only a bit more complicated. You
          throw a pad in the hammock and then zip a cover over the hammock. Put some of
          my camping stuff in the cover. I believe the system has the potential to give
          R values considerably higher than it is possible to get with a thermarest.

          Have a great Christmas hike in Georgia. Wish I had a few days to come along. I
          get down
          to SA several times a year. Maybe we can meet one of these days.

          Risk
        • Bill Fornshell
          Hi Risk, Thanks for the reply. I should also have said that when or if my sewing skills improve I will try some other things like you and others are doing. At
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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            Hi Risk, Thanks for the reply. I should also have
            said that when or if my sewing skills improve I will
            try some other things like you and others are doing.
            At this time I have to be content with trying to make
            do with what I have. I can trade a little extra weight
            for the "Standard" pad and a Down bag as my pack and
            other things are very light. I use a Speer Silk
            Hammock with a Silk Gauze Bug Net (14oz) with a
            "Standard" pad and sleep on my side. I don't move much
            when I sleep. I want to also get a Target pad but the
            store near me doesn't have them this time of the year.
            Therm-A-Rest has a new pad coming out called the
            Pro-Lite 4, one is 25" wide by 77" long, has an "R"
            value of 3.2, is 1-1/2" thick and weights 33oz. I
            want to try one when they go on sale. On the hike in
            Georgia I hope to see some snow and at least one night
            of temperatures near 0 degrees. Then it can go back
            to between 20 to 30 degrees or warmer. I need a base
            line to see what works and what doesn't. I believe 0
            degrees in a Hammock is possible, just have to work
            out the engineering for it.

            I am making an aluminum Pack Frame/Sled for the hike
            that I can wear or if there is enough snow I can pull
            it. I will finish it today and then try and make a
            pack bag for it. Bill

            --- ra1@... wrote:
            > Hi Bill,
            >
            > Replies in line...
            >
            > Quoting Bill Fornshell:
            >
            > > Hi Risk, A lot of people talk about using the
            > Target
            > > "Blue Closed Cell Pad." Do you have any idea what
            > the
            > > "R" value of this pad is?
            >
            > About the same as the RidgeRest, or a bit less...
            > Ridge Rest is 2.6. I
            > calculated the Target pad at something like 2.5. I
            > will see if the package
            > says, though I doubt it.
            > >
            > > I have had great success staying warm in my
            > hammock
            > > (down to 30 degree
            s)(this is south Texas) by just
            > > using a Therm-A-Rest "Standard" full size pad and
            > a
            > > decent sleeping bag. I expect this combination
            > and my
            > > long underwear will keep me much warmer without
            > all
            > > the other extra stuff you are playing with. I
            > believe
            > > in the KISS theory and hope to test this during
            > Ed's
            > > Christmas Hike. Bill
            >
            > I think you can stay reasonable warm with that set
            > up as long as you can stay on
            > top of the thermarest. My shoulders would get
            > pretty cold in a Speer type
            > hammock without a pad that rolled up around my
            > shoulders, but using a flatter
            > hammock like the HH you one probably do OK with
            > that. I've used the standard
            > Thermorest 72 incher in a HH.
            >
            > And if you get cold, you can always bail to the
            > ground with that set-up. I can
            > too, but it seems like a nice challenge to see how
            > low a temperature I can stay
            > comfortable in and still stay in the hammock.
            >
            > Here's why I consider other alternatives: That
            > bugger of yours (I have one too)
            > weighs 2 pounds and 11 ounces. My pad and TravelPod
            > weigh a little under a
            > pound and will keep me warm, not just down to 30 but
            > down to at least 25 in the
            > wind. How much lower, I don't know yet. I admit to
            > being a gram-weenie. The
            > extra pound and 11 is an obvious target.
            >
            > What I am describing ("all the extra stuff")is only
            > a bit more complicated. You
            > throw a pad in the hammock and then zip a cover over
            > the hammock. Put some of
            > my camping stuff in the cover. I believe the system
            > has the potential to give
            > R values considerably higher than it is possible to
            > get with a thermarest.
            >
            > Have a great Christmas hike in Georgia. Wish I had
            > a few days to come along. I
            > get down
            > to SA several times a year. Maybe we can meet one
            > of these days.
            >
            > Risk
            >
            >
            >
            >

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          • Dave Womble
            Hey guys, I looked at R-values for closed cell foam pads last January. One of the few closed cell foam pads with solid surfaces that I could find manufactures
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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              Hey guys,

              I looked at R-values for closed cell foam pads last January. One of
              the few closed cell foam pads with solid surfaces that I could find
              manufactures specifications on was the Link Rest by Cascade Designs
              and I am assuming that other solid surfaced closed cell foam pads
              that have a density between 1.5 and 2.0 pounds per cubic foot have an
              R-value proportional to the R-value of the Link Rest, which is 1.9
              with a thickness of 7/16 inch. That would mean that a quality 3/8
              inch closed cell foam pad would have an R-value of about 1.6.

              I contacted Cascade Designs and asked them about their R-value
              tests. I was told that they use flat plates to equally weight the
              pad under test over its entire surface area. To me, this means that
              the self inflating pads test higher that they perform because we
              don't load them equally-- we collapse the pads significantly in the
              areas of our greatest weight, our butts for instance. It also means
              that we have to be careful how we use the closed cell pads with large
              open surface cells, i.e. the Ridgerest, Z-rest, convoluted pads,
              etc. These pads are intended to be used against air-tight surfaces
              on both sides; if that condition is not meet I think the R-value will
              be determined by something in between the minimun and maximum
              thickness of the pad. This is a concern to me when one side of the
              pad is placed against the breathable material of a hammock.

              Anyway, I thought I would throw that out there since the subject came
              up... it is what I figured out and hopefully some of it is right. I
              didn't get to test this out in cold weather because I was in and out
              of town pretty much all of last winter. Since then I have decided to
              try out multiple 3/8 inch REI blue pads but haven't had them in
              temperatures much below freezing.

              Dave


              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, ra1@i... wrote:
              > Hi Bill,
              >
              > Replies in line...
              >
              > Quoting Bill Fornshell:
              >
              > > Hi Risk, A lot of people talk about using the Target
              > > "Blue Closed Cell Pad." Do you have any idea what the
              > > "R" value of this pad is?
              >
              > About the same as the RidgeRest, or a bit less... Ridge Rest is
              2.6. I
              > calculated the Target pad at something like 2.5. I will see if
              the package
              > says, though I doubt it.

              > Risk
            • Rick
              ... Cool! err... Hot! One thing I did learn when I was looking up info on what the value might be was that 3 1/2 in fiberglass batting has an R value of 11.
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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                Dave Womble wrote:

                >Hey guys,
                >
                >I looked at R-values for closed cell foam pads last January. One of
                >the few closed cell foam pads with solid surfaces that I could find
                >manufactures specifications on was the Link Rest by Cascade Designs
                >and I am assuming that other solid surfaced closed cell foam pads
                >that have a density between 1.5 and 2.0 pounds per cubic foot have an
                >R-value proportional to the R-value of the Link Rest, which is 1.9
                >with a thickness of 7/16 inch. That would mean that a quality 3/8
                >inch closed cell foam pad would have an R-value of about 1.6.
                >
                >I contacted Cascade Designs and asked them about their R-value
                >tests. I was told that they use flat plates to equally weight the
                >pad under test over its entire surface area. To me, this means that
                >the self inflating pads test higher that they perform because we
                >don't load them equally-- we collapse the pads significantly in the
                >areas of our greatest weight, our butts for instance. It also means
                >that we have to be careful how we use the closed cell pads with large
                >open surface cells, i.e. the Ridgerest, Z-rest, convoluted pads,
                >etc. These pads are intended to be used against air-tight surfaces
                >on both sides; if that condition is not meet I think the R-value will
                >be determined by something in between the minimun and maximum
                >thickness of the pad. This is a concern to me when one side of the
                >pad is placed against the breathable material of a hammock.
                >
                >Anyway, I thought I would throw that out there since the subject came
                >up... it is what I figured out and hopefully some of it is right. I
                >didn't get to test this out in cold weather because I was in and out
                >of town pretty much all of last winter. Since then I have decided to
                >try out multiple 3/8 inch REI blue pads but haven't had them in
                >temperatures much below freezing.
                >
                >Dave
                >
                >
                >
                >
                Cool! err... Hot!

                One thing I did learn when I was looking up info on what the value might
                be was that 3 1/2 in fiberglass batting has an R value of 11. So to my
                little mind, 4 in of down probably has about the same. Empty vertical
                spaces from 1/2 to 4 inches have only an R value of 1. Part of that may
                be because it is vertical. Horizontal may do better. Nevertheless, it
                is important to fill up those empty spaces with micro convection systems.

                BTW, my calculation came from taking a value here:

                http://coloradoenergy.org/procorner/stuff/r-values.htm

                Specifically the foamed in place polyurethane, and multiplying 6.25 x
                3/8. The actual answer is 2.3. But I did not take into consideration
                weight being applied. If I assume that the 3/8 pad is compressed to 1/4
                inch, then the calculation is 1.56 which is what Bear mentions above.

                All of this helps explain to me why I have the impression, with my
                overlap pad, that it is much warmer than a single pad. In the most
                compressed part of the pad, the central 8 or 9 inches, I have an overlap
                of two pads.

                Thanks Dave!

                Rick
              • firefly
                When you come to a conclusion please let me know. I am curious. Thanks, Marsanne Anyway, I thought I would throw that out there since the subject came up... it
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 3, 2003
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                  When you come to a conclusion please let me know. I am curious. Thanks, Marsanne

                   


                  Anyway, I thought I would throw that out there since the subject came
                  up... it is what I figured out and hopefully some of it is right.  I
                  didn't get to test this out in cold weather because I was in and out
                  of town pretty much all of last winter.  Since then I have decided to
                  try out multiple 3/8 inch REI blue pads but haven't had them in
                  temperatures much below freezing.

                  Dave


                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, ra1@i... wrote:
                  > Hi Bill,
                  >
                  > Replies in line...
                  >
                  > Quoting Bill Fornshell:
                  >
                  > > Hi Risk, A lot of people talk about using the Target
                  > > "Blue Closed Cell Pad."  Do you have any idea what the
                  > > "R" value of this pad is?
                  >
                  > About the same as the RidgeRest, or a bit less...  Ridge Rest is
                  2.6.  I
                  > calculated the Target pad at something like 2.5.   I will see if
                  the package
                  > says, though I doubt it.

                  > Risk



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