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staying warm

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  • o123david
    The Crazy Crib with the WM Ponderosa around it sure looks warm and comfortable. With the Nunatak Down Balaclava it sounds warm. But I have some questions about
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 23, 2003
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      The Crazy Crib with the WM Ponderosa around it sure looks warm and
      comfortable. With the Nunatak Down Balaclava it sounds warm.
      But I have some questions about it. What happens if it's windy? Or
      rain is blown in from the side?
      Can you get enough protection with a large tarp set up close to the
      hammock and coming down sharply toward the ground? Even if the wind
      shifts and comes from one of the ends?
      Also, when you're in that type of setup and you are sleeping on your
      side with your legs bent it seems that the sleeping bag wouldn't be
      able to bend with you and you would end up with a lot of extra space
      inside the bag and hammock. This space would waste body heat and
      leave you colder.

      What I'd like to try if I ever get out camping again is the following.
      - Sleep on an angle, probably on my side in the fetal position.
      - Use a thick pad, actually at least 4 layers of Oware's lightweight
      1/4" foam cut to various sizes so the padding is thicker where
      needed, to protect me from the cold air below.
      - Use the sleeping bag with the most warmth for a given weight, the
      Nunatak Arc Alpinist (with extra fill). Use some lightweight webbing
      to hold the pads together and keep the bottom of the bag centered
      over the pads.
      - Drape lightweight plastic or coated nylon in a skirt around the
      hammock, with the material forced to stay apart at the bottom by
      adding weight or tying it down or holding the bottoms apart with
      poles. It gets clammy if they aren't held apart. This probably isn't
      a problem when it's windy. Even without wind I have found that this
      lightweight skirt adds a lot of warmth.
      - And, of course, a tarp. In my case a diamond-shaped Hennessy tarp
      over a Speer hammock.

      It seems that this would be lightweight and keep me warm into the
      single digits, which is needed at times during the winter on the
      southern AT.
      Does any of this make any sense? Any feedback?

      One other thing.
      Yes, foam pads do an excellent job of blocking the wind.
      The problem is that when it is windy there is no layer of warm air
      next to the cold side of the pad.
      It has also been pointed out that if the distance between the cold
      side of the pad and material blocking the wind is too great then the
      material blocking the wind adds little warmth.
      So what I am proposing has the skirt that is blocking the wind
      hanging near the cold side of the pad but still a small distance away
      from it.
      In testing it last spring with a lightweight sleeping bag (Nunatak
      Ghost) and a thin pad with the temperature in the 30's the skirt
      added a significant amount of badly needed warmth.
      I'm trying to keep the bottom open, at least when it isn't windy, to
      avoid condensation.

      One last thing. Western Mountaineering makes a vapor barrier out of a
      strong lightweight material which has a layer that reflects radiation
      on one side. In cold weather would it make sense to use a diamond-
      shaped tarp made of that material, and possibly even use that
      material to make the skirt surrounding the hammock? --David
    • Robert Moore
      David, Quite a bit here to respond to.... for wind and rain I think the fly I ususally carry -the Golite Cave 2- will provide enough coverage for wind and
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 23, 2003
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        David,
        Quite a bit here to respond to....
        for wind and rain I think the fly I ususally carry -the Golite Cave 2- will provide enough coverage for wind and rain...splatter rain, from the ground up, is not a concern at the temps this set up is intended for, and that is when expected nightime temps are 25 degrees and colder (hard for ice to splatter too much onto the bottom of the Ponderosa..
        Dont know what to say about sleeping on one's side since I dont but I agree that there would be wasted space inside the Ponderosa, space that would contain the next days hiking clothes to warm and dry...
        And an emphatic yes that the Nunatak Arc Alpinist is THE insulation for weight/ounce, and mine has accompanied me on all trips for the last year-whether hammocking, sheltering, hutting and so on...for the extreme winter set up with the Crib/Ponderosa, the Arc Alpinist would be an awesome addition as would a piece of foam...now about foam, I too have several closed cell foam pads, have used them all in various applications, but went away from them after deploying underquilts/tacos with the HH....BUT I recently recieved from a company in Knoxville,TN a piece of foam that is 8 feet long and 7 feet wide. This piece of foam would/could be easily cut to fit inside an HH that would include 'wings' for the shoulder section (not a new idea, Sgt Rock first proposed it out of 2 pieces of foam) but this would be a one piece foam pad. So yes closed cell foam pads can make any hammock effective against cold but the argument is always their bulk when placed on the pack, their width (so the shoulders dont get cold), their placement, etc. all leading us to the underquilt.
        With several underquilts I have been very pleased with them-especially in conjunction with a sil-nyl taco (which blocks wind and rain and splatter)...but in the end Ed Speer had figured out that really cold hammocking requires a peapod....I just didnt like the cost/weight/temp rating ratio, and I had a Ponderosa sitting around....

        o123david <o123david@...> wrote:
        The Crazy Crib with the WM Ponderosa around it sure looks warm and
        comfortable. With the Nunatak Down Balaclava it sounds warm.
        But I have some questions about it. What happens if it's windy? Or
        rain is blown in from the side?
        Can you get enough protection with a large tarp set up close to the
        hammock and coming down sharply toward the ground? Even if the wind
        shifts and comes from one of the ends?
        Also, when you're in that type of setup and you are sleeping on your
        side with your legs bent it seems that the sleeping bag wouldn't be
        able to bend with you and you would end up with a lot of extra space
        inside the bag and hammock. This space would waste body heat and
        leave you colder.

        What I'd like to try if I ever get out camping again is the following.
        - Sleep on an angle, probably on my side in the fetal position.
        - Use a thick pad, actually at least 4 layers of Oware's lightweight
        1/4" foam cut to various sizes so the padding is thicker where
        needed, to protect me from the cold air below.
        - Use the sleeping bag with the most warmth for a given weight, the
        Nunatak Arc Alpinist (with extra fill). Use some lightweight webbing
        to hold the pads together and keep the bottom of the bag centered
        over the pads.
        - Drape lightweight plastic or coated nylon in a skirt around the
        hammock, with the material forced to stay apart at the bottom by
        adding weight or tying it down or holding the bottoms apart with
        poles. It gets clammy if they aren't held apart. This probably isn't
        a problem when it's windy. Even without wind I have found that this
        lightweight skirt adds a lot of warmth.
        - And, of course, a tarp. In my case a diamond-shaped Hennessy tarp
        over a Speer hammock.

        It seems that this would be lightweight and keep me warm into the
        single digits, which is needed at times during the winter on the
        southern AT.
        Does any of this make any sense? Any feedback?

        One other thing.
        Yes, foam pads do an excellent job of blocking the wind.
        The problem is that when it is windy there is no layer of warm air
        next to the cold side of the pad.
        It has also been pointed out that if the distance between the cold
        side of the pad and material blocking the wind is too great then the
        material blocking the wind adds little warmth.
        So what I am proposing has the skirt that is blocking the wind
        hanging near the cold side of the pad but still a small distance away
        from it.
        In testing it last spring with a lightweight sleeping bag (Nunatak
        Ghost) and a thin pad with the temperature in the 30's the skirt
        added a significant amount of badly needed warmth.
        I'm trying to keep the bottom open, at least when it isn't windy, to
        avoid condensation.

        One last thing. Western Mountaineering makes a vapor barrier out of a
        strong lightweight material which has a layer that reflects radiation
        on one side. In cold weather would it make sense to use a diamond-
        shaped tarp made of that material, and possibly even use that
        material to make the skirt surrounding the hammock? --David



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      • Ed Speer
        Hi Dave, thanks for coming to my seminar at ALDHA, it was good to meet you. Hope you re still making progress on your vapor-barrier wind skirt for the hammock.
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 24, 2003
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          Message
          Hi Dave, thanks for coming to my seminar at ALDHA, it was good to meet you.
           
          Hope you're still making progress on your vapor-barrier wind skirt for the hammock.  As you know, I am a big believer in reflective vapor barriers (based on my personal testing); so I'd definitely use it for a wind skirt--I am planning to eventually experiment making my own with reflective emergency Mylar sheeting anyway.  Hope you have luck with yours this winter...Ed
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: o123david [mailto:o123david@...]
          Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:41 PM
          To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Hammock Camping] staying warm

          The Crazy Crib with the WM Ponderosa around it sure looks warm and
          comfortable. With the Nunatak Down Balaclava it sounds warm.
          But I have some questions about it. What happens if it's windy? Or
          rain is blown in from the side?
          Can you get enough protection with a large tarp set up close to the
          hammock and coming down sharply toward the ground? Even if the wind
          shifts and comes from one of the ends?
          Also, when you're in that type of setup and you are sleeping on your
          side with your legs bent it seems that the sleeping bag wouldn't be
          able to bend with you and you would end up with a lot of extra space
          inside the bag and hammock. This space would waste body heat and
          leave you colder.

          What I'd like to try if I ever get out camping again is the following.
          - Sleep on an angle, probably on my side in the fetal position.
          - Use a thick pad, actually at least 4 layers of Oware's lightweight
          1/4" foam cut to various sizes so the padding is thicker where
          needed, to protect me from the cold air below.
          - Use the sleeping bag with the most warmth for a given weight, the
          Nunatak Arc Alpinist (with extra fill). Use some lightweight webbing
          to hold the pads together and keep the bottom of the bag centered
          over the pads.
          - Drape lightweight plastic or coated nylon in a skirt around the
          hammock, with the material forced to stay apart at the bottom by
          adding weight or tying it down or holding the bottoms apart with
          poles. It gets clammy if they aren't held apart. This probably isn't
          a problem when it's windy. Even without wind I have found that this
          lightweight skirt adds a lot of warmth.
          - And, of course, a tarp. In my case a diamond-shaped Hennessy tarp
          over a Speer hammock.

          It seems that this would be lightweight and keep me warm into the
          single digits, which is needed at times during the winter on the
          southern AT.
          Does any of this make any sense? Any feedback?

          One other thing.
          Yes, foam pads do an excellent job of blocking the wind.
          The problem is that when it is windy there is no layer of warm air
          next to the cold side of the pad.
          It has also been pointed out that if the distance between the cold
          side of the pad and material blocking the wind is too great then the
          material blocking the wind adds little warmth.
          So what I am proposing has the skirt that is blocking the wind
          hanging near the cold side of the pad but still a small distance away
          from it.
          In testing it last spring with a lightweight sleeping bag (Nunatak
          Ghost) and a thin pad with the temperature in the 30's the skirt
          added a significant amount of badly needed warmth.
          I'm trying to keep the bottom open, at least when it isn't windy, to
          avoid condensation.

          One last thing. Western Mountaineering makes a vapor barrier out of a
          strong lightweight material which has a layer that reflects radiation
          on one side. In cold weather would it make sense to use a diamond-
          shaped tarp made of that material, and possibly even use that
          material to make the skirt surrounding the hammock? --David



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          hammockcamping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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        • Robert Mittelman
          Robert, I am considering buying a hammock and need either a new winter bag for a January snow shoeing trip to northern Maine, or an overbag for my long mummy
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 1, 2003
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            Robert,
             
            I am considering buying a hammock and need either a new winter bag for a January snow shoeing trip to northern Maine, or an overbag for my long mummy bag that is comfortable into the single digits.  Hence my interest in your Crib/Ponderosa set up.  I have a few questions:
             
            1) what length Ponderosa do you have?  I would think that the 7' would be best for Pea Pod use, but for my overbag needs, 6' 6" should be sufficient.  I don't plan on using a hammock on my Maine trip.
             
            2) Coy has a post where he questions using a Ponderosa as a Pea Pod for a Speer hammock.  I haven't seen a response from you, but thought I'd ask if you have any thoughts on the subject.
             
            3) how does the Crib sleep relative to your Hennessey?  Which is more comfortable and why?  Do you sleep in the Crib on the diagonal, as in the Hennessey and Speer?  If not, how do you avoid the banana shape?  Will sleeping on the diagonal be possible when using the Ponderosa as a Pea Pod, given the barrel shape of the Ponderosa?
             
            4) have you used the Crib/Ponderosa in snowy, windy conditions?  If so, was snow blowing into the hammock a problem?
             
            Thanks.
             
            Bob Mittelman

            Robert Moore <simva4040@...> wrote:
            David,
            Quite a bit here to respond to....
            for wind and rain I think the fly I ususally carry -the Golite Cave 2- will provide enough coverage for wind and rain...splatter rain, from the ground up, is not a concern at the temps this set up is intended for, and that is when expected nightime temps are 25 degrees and colder (hard for ice to splatter too much onto the bottom of the Ponderosa..
            Dont know what to say about sleeping on one's side since I dont but I agree that there would be wasted space inside the Ponderosa, space that would contain the next days hiking clothes to warm and dry...
            And an emphatic yes that the Nunatak Arc Alpinist is THE insulation for weight/ounce, and mine has accompanied me on all trips for the last year-whether hammocking, sheltering, hutting and so on...for the extreme winter set up with the Crib/Ponderosa, the Arc Alpinist would be an awesome addition as would a piece of foam...now about foam, I too have several closed cell foam pads, have used them all in various applications, but went away from them after deploying underquilts/tacos with the HH....BUT I recently recieved from a company in Knoxville,TN a piece of foam that is 8 feet long and 7 feet wide. This piece of foam would/could be easily cut to fit inside an HH that would include 'wings' for the shoulder section (not a new idea, Sgt Rock first proposed it out of 2 pieces of foam) but this would be a one piece foam pad. So yes closed cell foam pads can make any hammock effective against cold but the argument is always their bulk when placed on the pack, their width (so the shoulders dont get cold), their placement, etc. all leading us to the underquilt.
            With several underquilts I have been very pleased with them-especially in conjunction with a sil-nyl taco (which blocks wind and rain and splatter)...but in the end Ed Speer had figured out that really cold hammocking requires a peapod....I just didnt like the cost/weight/temp rating ratio, and I had a Ponderosa sitting around....

            o123david <o123david@...> wrote:
            The Crazy Crib with the WM Ponderosa around it sure looks warm and
            comfortable. With the Nunatak Down Balaclava it sounds warm.
            But I have some questions about it. What happens if it's windy? Or
            rain is blown in from the side?
            Can you get enough protection with a large tarp set up close to the
            hammock and coming down sharply toward the ground? Even if the wind
            shifts and comes from one of the ends?
            Also, when you're in that type of setup and you are sleeping on your
            side with your legs bent it seems that the sleeping bag wouldn't be
            able to bend with you and you would end up with a lot of extra space
            inside the bag and hammock. This space would waste body heat and
            leave you colder.

            What I'd like to try if I ever get out camping again is the following.
            - Sleep on an angle, probably on my side in the fetal position.
            - Use a thick pad, actually at least 4 layers of Oware's lightweight
            1/4" foam cut to various sizes so the padding is thicker where
            needed, to protect me from the cold air below.
            - Use the sleeping bag with the most warmth for a given weight, the
            Nunatak Arc Alpinist (with extra fill). Use some lightweight webbing
            to hold the pads together and keep the bottom of the bag centered
            over the pads.
            - Drape lightweight plastic or coated nylon in a skirt around the
            hammock, with the material forced to stay apart at the bottom by
            adding weight or tying it down or holding the bottoms apart with
            poles. It gets clammy if they aren't held apart. This probably isn't
            a problem when it's windy. Even without wind I have found that this
            lightweight skirt adds a lot of warmth.
            - And, of course, a tarp. In my case a diamond-shaped Hennessy tarp
            over a Speer hammock.

            It seems that this would be lightweight and keep me warm into the
            single digits, which is needed at times during the winter on the
            southern AT.
            Does any of this make any sense? Any feedback?

            One other thing.
            Yes, foam pads do an excellent job of blocking the wind.
            The problem is that when it is windy there is no layer of warm air
            next to the cold side of the pad.
            It has also been pointed out that if the distance between the cold
            side of the pad and material blocking the wind is too great then the
            material blocking the wind adds little warmth.
            So what I am proposing has the skirt that is blocking the wind
            hanging near the cold side of the pad but still a small distance away
            from it.
            In testing it last spring with a lightweight sleeping bag (Nunatak
            Ghost) and a thin pad with the temperature in the 30's the skirt
            added a significant amount of badly needed warmth.
            I'm trying to keep the bottom open, at least when it isn't windy, to
            avoid condensation.

            One last thing. Western Mountaineering makes a vapor barrier out of a
            strong lightweight material which has a layer that reflects radiation
            on one side. In cold weather would it make sense to use a diamond-
            shaped tarp made of that material, and possibly even use that
            material to make the skirt surrounding the hammock? --David



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            hammockcamping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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            Do you Yahoo!?
            Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now

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          • Coy
            Bob I seee no one answered your questions, mine either, so I ll give you what I know and what I suspect. See below. ... for a January snow shoeing trip to
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 5, 2003
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              Bob

              I seee no one answered your questions, mine either, so I'll give you
              what I know and what I suspect. See below.

              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mittelman
              <rmittelman@s...> wrote:
              > Robert,
              >
              > I am considering buying a hammock and need either a new winter bag
              for a January snow shoeing trip to northern Maine, or an overbag for
              my long mummy bag that is comfortable into the single digits. Hence
              my interest in your Crib/Ponderosa set up. I have a few questions:
              >
              > 1) what length Ponderosa do you have? I would think that the 7'
              would be best for Pea Pod use, but for my overbag needs, 6' 6"
              should be sufficient. I don't plan on using a hammock on my Maine
              trip.

              I would think the 7 foot version would be best with a speer type,
              The crib is shorter by a little and is wider at each end. it uses 2
              straps and it dosent quite come together at the ends like a Soeer or
              Hennessy. The bag will still need to slide down the hammock a
              little but with a 7 foot bag it would be close to being able to zip
              it closed at the middle of the foot end where the hanging strap
              exits the bag.
              >
              > 2) Coy has a post where he questions using a Ponderosa as a Pea
              Pod for a Speer hammock. I haven't seen a response from you, but
              thought I'd ask if you have any thoughts on the subject.

              The Crib is narrower than the Speere so I may try to make a Speere a
              little narrower. I don't think the Ponderosa is as big in the
              middle as Eds PeaPod.
              >
              > 3) how does the Crib sleep relative to your Hennessey? Which is
              more comfortable and why? Do you sleep in the Crib on the diagonal,
              as in the Hennessey and Speer? If not, how do you avoid the banana
              shape? Will sleeping on the diagonal be possible when using the
              Ponderosa as a Pea Pod, given the barrel shape of the Ponderosa?

              I have a Crib but mine uses the hoops so mine dosn't pinch at the
              shoulders as much as the regular Crib. I have tried mine without
              the spreaded bars (hoops) and it definatly closes around me tighter
              than my hennessys do. But it is still very confortable. I sleep a
              little flatter in the HH than I do in the Crib especially sans the
              spreader hoops.
              >
              > 4) have you used the Crib/Ponderosa in snowy, windy conditions?
              If so, was snow blowing into the hammock a problem?

              I imagine the head sticking out will allow some blowing snow around
              the face area but hanging the tarp low and devising a wind break
              with spare rain jacket etc at the head end will help. When using
              the Ponderosa as a PeaPod I doubt the netting would be in use even
              though it helps block a little wind and most snow. Maybe throw a
              Frogg Togg top over my head if the snow was blowing that bad.
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              > Bob Mittelman

              Coy Boy
            • Robert Mittelman
              Thanks, CB! Bob Mittelman Coy wrote: Bob I seee no one answered your questions, mine either, so I ll give you what I know and what I
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 6, 2003
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                Thanks, CB!
                 
                Bob Mittelman

                Coy <starnescr@...> wrote:
                Bob

                I seee no one answered your questions, mine either, so I'll give you
                what I know and what I suspect.  See below.

                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mittelman
                <rmittelman@s...> wrote:
                > Robert,

                > I am considering buying a hammock and need either a new winter bag
                for a January snow shoeing trip to northern Maine, or an overbag for
                my long mummy bag that is comfortable into the single digits.  Hence
                my interest in your Crib/Ponderosa set up.  I have a few questions:

                > 1) what length Ponderosa do you have?  I would think that the 7'
                would be best for Pea Pod use, but for my overbag needs, 6' 6"
                should be sufficient.  I don't plan on using a hammock on my Maine
                trip.

                I would think the 7 foot version would be best with a speer type, 
                The crib is shorter by a little and is wider at each end.  it uses 2
                straps and it dosent quite come together at the ends like a Soeer or
                Hennessy.  The bag will still need to slide down the hammock a
                little but with a 7 foot bag it would be close to being able to zip
                it closed at the middle of the foot end where the hanging strap
                exits the bag.

                > 2) Coy has a post where he questions using a Ponderosa as a Pea
                Pod for a Speer hammock.  I haven't seen a response from you, but
                thought I'd ask if you have any thoughts on the subject.

                The Crib is narrower than the Speere so I may try to make a Speere a
                little narrower.  I don't think the Ponderosa is as big in the
                middle as Eds PeaPod.

                > 3) how does the Crib sleep relative to your Hennessey?  Which is
                more comfortable and why?  Do you sleep in the Crib on the diagonal,
                as in the Hennessey and Speer?  If not, how do you avoid the banana
                shape?  Will sleeping on the diagonal be possible when using the
                Ponderosa as a Pea Pod, given the barrel shape of the Ponderosa?

                I have a Crib but mine uses the hoops so mine dosn't pinch at the
                shoulders as much as the regular Crib.  I have tried mine without
                the spreaded bars (hoops) and it definatly closes around me tighter
                than my hennessys do.  But it is still very confortable.  I sleep a
                little flatter in the HH than I do in the Crib especially sans the
                spreader hoops.

                > 4) have you used the Crib/Ponderosa in snowy, windy conditions? 
                If so, was snow blowing into the hammock a problem?

                I imagine the head sticking out will allow some blowing snow around
                the face area but hanging the tarp low and devising a wind break
                with spare rain jacket etc at the head end will help.  When using
                the Ponderosa as a PeaPod I doubt the netting would be in use even
                though it helps block a little wind and most snow.  Maybe throw a
                Frogg Togg top over my head if the snow was blowing that bad.

                > Thanks.

                > Bob Mittelman

                Coy Boy




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              • Robert Moore
                Coy, So many questions and many I cannot answer because in all honesty I have not taken the Ponderosa/Crib on a hike yet....our last 2 sections we slacked ( I
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 6, 2003
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                  Coy,
                  So many questions and many I cannot answer because in all honesty I have not taken the Ponderosa/Crib on a hike yet....our last 2 sections we slacked ( I had done them before and La AquaNa needed them, they were around Hotsprings NC so we took the opportunity to use the hot springs after each hike-luxury hiking!).....The system I have hiked with is the taco/HH with varying insulation.
                  The 6'6" Ponderosa had no problem covering up my head and still providing good (well complete) coverage of the foot area.....but not wanting condensation inside I ordered the Nunatak balaclava to use in this system.
                  The Crib does lay differently than the HH, and though I have the a-sym I never slept crosswise in it and wont in the Crib....in trials with La AquaNa padding me down to see if the down was every compressed we found that wasnt even in the fetal position--so with that I'm thinking the Ponderosa may not be as wide in the middle as the peapod, it is still a wide bag....which makes me wonder what the Spear PeaPod will cost when it comes out in down????
                  As far as wind driven rain/snow....I use the Golite Cave2 tarp instead of the OME fly that came with the HH...I like it for the real estate below though it is a heavy tarp at around a pound....but it is so large I havent had any problems with the driven water-I did with the OME with some intense horizontal rain behind Albert Mtn shelter, my underquilt got wet but I was still warm, it was then that I switched to the Cave2....
                  Yes my Crib has 2 straps but when weighted and pulled tight they are essentially one strap leaving the hammock....did you look closely at the pics I posted at whiteblaze.net of the setup? if so you saw that the foot end appears only to have one strap leaving the foot box.....
                  Ok, sorry I was late and missed your questions....I do love the Ponderosa, we have taken it on many a hike to sleep under as a comforter in the motel or hostel and its original intent was paddle camping where the kayak doesnt care how much it weighs :)
                  Medicine Man
                  oooo, forgot, here in the shadow of Roan Mountain it hasnt gotten above 24 degrees all day.

                  Coy <starnescr@...> wrote:
                  Bob

                  I seee no one answered your questions, mine either, so I'll give you
                  what I know and what I suspect.  See below.

                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mittelman
                  <rmittelman@s...> wrote:
                  > Robert,

                  > I am considering buying a hammock and need either a new winter bag
                  for a January snow shoeing trip to northern Maine, or an overbag for
                  my long mummy bag that is comfortable into the single digits.  Hence
                  my interest in your Crib/Ponderosa set up.  I have a few questions:

                  > 1) what length Ponderosa do you have?  I would think that the 7'
                  would be best for Pea Pod use, but for my overbag needs, 6' 6"
                  should be sufficient.  I don't plan on using a hammock on my Maine
                  trip.

                  I would think the 7 foot version would be best with a speer type, 
                  The crib is shorter by a little and is wider at each end.  it uses 2
                  straps and it dosent quite come together at the ends like a Soeer or
                  Hennessy.  The bag will still need to slide down the hammock a
                  little but with a 7 foot bag it would be close to being able to zip
                  it closed at the middle of the foot end where the hanging strap
                  exits the bag.

                  > 2) Coy has a post where he questions using a Ponderosa as a Pea
                  Pod for a Speer hammock.  I haven't seen a response from you, but
                  thought I'd ask if you have any thoughts on the subject.

                  The Crib is narrower than the Speere so I may try to make a Speere a
                  little narrower.  I don't think the Ponderosa is as big in the
                  middle as Eds PeaPod.

                  > 3) how does the Crib sleep relative to your Hennessey?  Which is
                  more comfortable and why?  Do you sleep in the Crib on the diagonal,
                  as in the Hennessey and Speer?  If not, how do you avoid the banana
                  shape?  Will sleeping on the diagonal be possible when using the
                  Ponderosa as a Pea Pod, given the barrel shape of the Ponderosa?

                  I have a Crib but mine uses the hoops so mine dosn't pinch at the
                  shoulders as much as the regular Crib.  I have tried mine without
                  the spreaded bars (hoops) and it definatly closes around me tighter
                  than my hennessys do.  But it is still very confortable.  I sleep a
                  little flatter in the HH than I do in the Crib especially sans the
                  spreader hoops.

                  > 4) have you used the Crib/Ponderosa in snowy, windy conditions? 
                  If so, was snow blowing into the hammock a problem?

                  I imagine the head sticking out will allow some blowing snow around
                  the face area but hanging the tarp low and devising a wind break
                  with spare rain jacket etc at the head end will help.  When using
                  the Ponderosa as a PeaPod I doubt the netting would be in use even
                  though it helps block a little wind and most snow.  Maybe throw a
                  Frogg Togg top over my head if the snow was blowing that bad.

                  > Thanks.

                  > Bob Mittelman

                  Coy Boy




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                • Coy
                  Medicine Man Thanks, and when you have all the answers I m all ears LOL. As for the straps exiting as one, Yep, thats pretty much what I experienced. On
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 7, 2003
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                    Medicine Man

                    Thanks, and when you have "all" the answers I'm all ears LOL. As
                    for the straps exiting as one, Yep, thats pretty much what I
                    experienced. On the other hand my daughter has sort of laid claim
                    to the Crib and when she uses it the straps dont draw up so tight or
                    close together. Maybe I need to lose some weight LOL.

                    It was cold here all day (Sat) but it got up to 40 for a few
                    minutes. We had sleet and snow Friday but no acculation High Fri
                    was 36. The ground is still to warm. Great testing weather... I
                    think?

                    for now I'm on the lookout for a "big man" rectangular bag like you
                    see in Sportsmans Guide etc. I know they weigh a ton but I could
                    test the concept with different hammocks to see if it will work for
                    me. Then either get a Ponderosa, PeaPod, or a homemade version.

                    Coy Boy

                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Moore <simva4040@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Coy,
                    > So many questions and many I cannot answer because in all honesty
                    I have not taken the Ponderosa/Crib on a hike yet....our last 2
                    sections we slacked ( I had done them before and La AquaNa needed
                    them, they were around Hotsprings NC so we took the opportunity to
                    use the hot springs after each hike-luxury hiking!).....The system I
                    have hiked with is the taco/HH with varying insulation.
                    > The 6'6" Ponderosa had no problem covering up my head and still
                    providing good (well complete) coverage of the foot area.....but not
                    wanting condensation inside I ordered the Nunatak balaclava to use
                    in this system.
                    > The Crib does lay differently than the HH, and though I have the a-
                    sym I never slept crosswise in it and wont in the Crib....in trials
                    with La AquaNa padding me down to see if the down was every
                    compressed we found that wasnt even in the fetal position--so with
                    that I'm thinking the Ponderosa may not be as wide in the middle as
                    the peapod, it is still a wide bag....which makes me wonder what the
                    Spear PeaPod will cost when it comes out in down????
                    > As far as wind driven rain/snow....I use the Golite Cave2 tarp
                    instead of the OME fly that came with the HH...I like it for the
                    real estate below though it is a heavy tarp at around a pound....but
                    it is so large I havent had any problems with the driven water-I did
                    with the OME with some intense horizontal rain behind Albert Mtn
                    shelter, my underquilt got wet but I was still warm, it was then
                    that I switched to the Cave2....
                    > Yes my Crib has 2 straps but when weighted and pulled tight they
                    are essentially one strap leaving the hammock....did you look
                    closely at the pics I posted at whiteblaze.net of the setup? if so
                    you saw that the foot end appears only to have one strap leaving the
                    foot box.....
                    > Ok, sorry I was late and missed your questions....I do love the
                    Ponderosa, we have taken it on many a hike to sleep under as a
                    comforter in the motel or hostel and its original intent was paddle
                    camping where the kayak doesnt care how much it weighs :)
                    > Medicine Man
                    > oooo, forgot, here in the shadow of Roan Mountain it hasnt gotten
                    above 24 degrees all day.
                    >
                    > Coy <starnescr@y...> wrote:
                    > Bob
                    >
                    > I seee no one answered your questions, mine either, so I'll give
                    you
                    > what I know and what I suspect. See below.
                    >
                    > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mittelman
                    > <rmittelman@s...> wrote:
                    > > Robert,
                    > >
                    > > I am considering buying a hammock and need either a new winter
                    bag
                    > for a January snow shoeing trip to northern Maine, or an overbag
                    for
                    > my long mummy bag that is comfortable into the single digits.
                    Hence
                    > my interest in your Crib/Ponderosa set up. I have a few questions:
                    > >
                    > > 1) what length Ponderosa do you have? I would think that the 7'
                    > would be best for Pea Pod use, but for my overbag needs, 6' 6"
                    > should be sufficient. I don't plan on using a hammock on my Maine
                    > trip.
                    >
                    > I would think the 7 foot version would be best with a speer type,
                    > The crib is shorter by a little and is wider at each end. it uses
                    2
                    > straps and it dosent quite come together at the ends like a Soeer
                    or
                    > Hennessy. The bag will still need to slide down the hammock a
                    > little but with a 7 foot bag it would be close to being able to
                    zip
                    > it closed at the middle of the foot end where the hanging strap
                    > exits the bag.
                    > >
                    > > 2) Coy has a post where he questions using a Ponderosa as a Pea
                    > Pod for a Speer hammock. I haven't seen a response from you, but
                    > thought I'd ask if you have any thoughts on the subject.
                    >
                    > The Crib is narrower than the Speere so I may try to make a Speere
                    a
                    > little narrower. I don't think the Ponderosa is as big in the
                    > middle as Eds PeaPod.
                    > >
                    > > 3) how does the Crib sleep relative to your Hennessey? Which is
                    > more comfortable and why? Do you sleep in the Crib on the
                    diagonal,
                    > as in the Hennessey and Speer? If not, how do you avoid the
                    banana
                    > shape? Will sleeping on the diagonal be possible when using the
                    > Ponderosa as a Pea Pod, given the barrel shape of the Ponderosa?
                    >
                    > I have a Crib but mine uses the hoops so mine dosn't pinch at the
                    > shoulders as much as the regular Crib. I have tried mine without
                    > the spreaded bars (hoops) and it definatly closes around me
                    tighter
                    > than my hennessys do. But it is still very confortable. I sleep
                    a
                    > little flatter in the HH than I do in the Crib especially sans the
                    > spreader hoops.
                    > >
                    > > 4) have you used the Crib/Ponderosa in snowy, windy conditions?
                    > If so, was snow blowing into the hammock a problem?
                    >
                    > I imagine the head sticking out will allow some blowing snow
                    around
                    > the face area but hanging the tarp low and devising a wind break
                    > with spare rain jacket etc at the head end will help. When using
                    > the Ponderosa as a PeaPod I doubt the netting would be in use even
                    > though it helps block a little wind and most snow. Maybe throw a
                    > Frogg Togg top over my head if the snow was blowing that bad.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks.
                    > >
                    > > Bob Mittelman
                    >
                    > Coy Boy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                    >
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                  • Robert Moore
                    Coy, The more I play with the Ponderosa the more I like it....I guess I have been spoiled by the Arc Alpinist-the lightest amount of sleeping warmth you can
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 7, 2003
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                      Coy,
                      The more I play with the Ponderosa the more I like it....I guess I have been spoiled by the Arc Alpinist-the lightest amount of sleeping warmth you can carry, and I always carry a WM Flight, so the two, well I could go on and on...but the Ponderosa just may have an advantage over the other pods....I was reading that Risk keeps a knife with him so he can get out ....in the Pon/Crib combo you dont have that worry.....I did sleep in the Nunatak down balaclava this evening to get a feel for it....wonderful is an understatement but if you know the Arc alpinist then you know their workmanship....
                      Wednesday night we (La AquaNa) and I will be testing hammock variations of insulation at Ripshin (realistic temps there)...she doesnt want to deal with the tacos/underquilts/pods right now and is trying to go it with pads...since she is 5'2 and very light and not wide I told her she would probably do well with a Therm-a-rest and an additional closed cell pad placed 90 to the therm-a-rest....
                      OK for now, here in the hospital at the moment and will be all night.
                      Medicine Man

                      Coy <starnescr@...> wrote:
                      Medicine Man

                      Thanks, and when you have "all" the answers I'm all ears LOL.  As
                      for the straps exiting as one,  Yep, thats pretty much what I
                      experienced.  On the other hand my daughter has sort of laid claim
                      to the Crib and when she uses it the straps dont draw up so tight or
                      close together.  Maybe I need to lose some weight LOL. 

                      It was cold here all day (Sat) but it got up to 40 for a few
                      minutes.  We had sleet and snow Friday but no acculation  High Fri
                      was 36.  The ground is still to warm.  Great testing weather... I
                      think?

                      for now I'm on the lookout for a "big man" rectangular bag like you
                      see in Sportsmans Guide etc.   I know they weigh a ton but I could
                      test the concept with different hammocks to see if it will work for
                      me.  Then either get a Ponderosa, PeaPod, or a homemade version.

                      Coy Boy

                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Moore <simva4040@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > Coy,
                      > So many questions and many I cannot answer because in all honesty
                      I have not taken the Ponderosa/Crib on a hike yet....our last 2
                      sections we slacked ( I had done them before and La AquaNa needed
                      them, they were around Hotsprings NC so we took the opportunity to
                      use the hot springs after each hike-luxury hiking!).....The system I
                      have hiked with is the taco/HH with varying insulation.
                      > The 6'6" Ponderosa had no problem covering up my head and still
                      providing good (well complete) coverage of the foot area.....but not
                      wanting condensation inside I ordered the Nunatak balaclava to use
                      in this system.
                      > The Crib does lay differently than the HH, and though I have the a-
                      sym I never slept crosswise in it and wont in the Crib....in trials
                      with La AquaNa padding me down to see if the down was every
                      compressed we found that wasnt even in the fetal position--so with
                      that I'm thinking the Ponderosa may not be as wide in the middle as
                      the peapod, it is still a wide bag....which makes me wonder what the
                      Spear PeaPod will cost when it comes out in down????
                      > As far as wind driven rain/snow....I use the Golite Cave2 tarp
                      instead of the OME fly that came with the HH...I like it for the
                      real estate below though it is a heavy tarp at around a pound....but
                      it is so large I havent had any problems with the driven water-I did
                      with the OME with some intense horizontal rain behind Albert Mtn
                      shelter, my underquilt got wet but I was still warm, it was then
                      that I switched to the Cave2....
                      > Yes my Crib has 2 straps but when weighted and pulled tight they
                      are essentially one strap leaving the hammock....did you look
                      closely at the pics I posted at whiteblaze.net of the setup? if so
                      you saw that the foot end appears only to have one strap leaving the
                      foot box.....
                      > Ok, sorry I was late and missed your questions....I do love the
                      Ponderosa, we have taken it on many a hike to sleep under as a
                      comforter in the motel or hostel and its original intent was paddle
                      camping where the kayak doesnt care how much it weighs :)
                      > Medicine Man
                      > oooo, forgot, here in the shadow of Roan Mountain it hasnt gotten
                      above 24 degrees all day.
                      >
                      > Coy <starnescr@y...> wrote:
                      > Bob
                      >
                      > I seee no one answered your questions, mine either, so I'll give
                      you
                      > what I know and what I suspect.  See below.
                      >
                      > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mittelman
                      > <rmittelman@s...> wrote:
                      > > Robert,
                      > > 
                      > > I am considering buying a hammock and need either a new winter
                      bag
                      > for a January snow shoeing trip to northern Maine, or an overbag
                      for
                      > my long mummy bag that is comfortable into the single digits. 
                      Hence
                      > my interest in your Crib/Ponderosa set up.  I have a few questions:
                      > > 
                      > > 1) what length Ponderosa do you have?  I would think that the 7'
                      > would be best for Pea Pod use, but for my overbag needs, 6' 6"
                      > should be sufficient.  I don't plan on using a hammock on my Maine
                      > trip.
                      >
                      > I would think the 7 foot version would be best with a speer type, 
                      > The crib is shorter by a little and is wider at each end.  it uses
                      2
                      > straps and it dosent quite come together at the ends like a Soeer
                      or
                      > Hennessy.  The bag will still need to slide down the hammock a
                      > little but with a 7 foot bag it would be close to being able to
                      zip
                      > it closed at the middle of the foot end where the hanging strap
                      > exits the bag.
                      > > 
                      > > 2) Coy has a post where he questions using a Ponderosa as a Pea
                      > Pod for a Speer hammock.  I haven't seen a response from you, but
                      > thought I'd ask if you have any thoughts on the subject.
                      >
                      > The Crib is narrower than the Speere so I may try to make a Speere
                      a
                      > little narrower.  I don't think the Ponderosa is as big in the
                      > middle as Eds PeaPod.
                      > > 
                      > > 3) how does the Crib sleep relative to your Hennessey?  Which is
                      > more comfortable and why?  Do you sleep in the Crib on the
                      diagonal,
                      > as in the Hennessey and Speer?  If not, how do you avoid the
                      banana
                      > shape?  Will sleeping on the diagonal be possible when using the
                      > Ponderosa as a Pea Pod, given the barrel shape of the Ponderosa?
                      >
                      > I have a Crib but mine uses the hoops so mine dosn't pinch at the
                      > shoulders as much as the regular Crib.  I have tried mine without
                      > the spreaded bars (hoops) and it definatly closes around me
                      tighter
                      > than my hennessys do.  But it is still very confortable.  I sleep
                      a
                      > little flatter in the HH than I do in the Crib especially sans the
                      > spreader hoops.
                      > > 
                      > > 4) have you used the Crib/Ponderosa in snowy, windy conditions? 
                      > If so, was snow blowing into the hammock a problem?
                      >
                      > I imagine the head sticking out will allow some blowing snow
                      around
                      > the face area but hanging the tarp low and devising a wind break
                      > with spare rain jacket etc at the head end will help.  When using
                      > the Ponderosa as a PeaPod I doubt the netting would be in use even
                      > though it helps block a little wind and most snow.  Maybe throw a
                      > Frogg Togg top over my head if the snow was blowing that bad.
                      > > 
                      > > Thanks.
                      > > 
                      > > Bob Mittelman
                      >
                      > Coy Boy
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > hammockcamping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      Service.
                      >
                      >
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                    • Coy
                      I imagine the Ponderaos is about as good as it gets. I m considering something like a Nort Face Golith or Mammoth. I would have to modify it with a hole in
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 7, 2003
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                        I imagine the Ponderaos is about as good as it gets. I'm considering
                        something like a Nort Face Golith or Mammoth. I would have to
                        modify it with a hole in the end for the hammock line to pass out but
                        the 6' 8" version might be long enough to get a speere inside. The
                        hood on the bottom might want to hang down or maybe pass the head end
                        rope through the "modified hood" something like a big gromet. It
                        weighs 4 lb 10 oz but of couse I would be doing away with any pad
                        except for really cold nights which i would have to experiment to find
                        the low it would go. Basically like the PeaPod I'm looking to get a
                        sleeping bag which will fit around my setup. you could always "loan"
                        me the Ponderosa. I would send it right back LOL

                        Coy Boy

                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Moore <simva4040@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Coy,
                        > The more I play with the Ponderosa the more I like it....I guess I
                        have been spoiled by the Arc Alpinist-the lightest amount of sleeping
                        warmth you can carry, and I always carry a WM Flight, so the two, well
                        I could go on and on...but the Ponderosa just may have an advantage
                        over the other pods....I was reading that Risk keeps a knife with him
                        so he can get out ....in the Pon/Crib combo you dont have that
                        worry.....I did sleep in the Nunatak down balaclava this evening to
                        get a feel for it....wonderful is an understatement but if you know
                        the Arc alpinist then you know their workmanship....
                        > Wednesday night we (La AquaNa) and I will be testing hammock
                        variations of insulation at Ripshin (realistic temps there)...she
                        doesnt want to deal with the tacos/underquilts/pods right now and is
                        trying to go it with pads...since she is 5'2 and very light and not
                        wide I told her she would probably do well with a Therm-a-rest and an
                        additional closed cell pad placed 90 to the therm-a-rest....
                        > OK for now, here in the hospital at the moment and will be all night.
                        > Medicine Man
                        >
                        > Coy <starnescr@y...> wrote:
                        > Medicine Man
                        >
                        > Thanks, and when you have "all" the answers I'm all ears LOL. As
                        > for the straps exiting as one, Yep, thats pretty much what I
                        > experienced. On the other hand my daughter has sort of laid claim
                        > to the Crib and when she uses it the straps dont draw up so tight or
                        > close together. Maybe I need to lose some weight LOL.
                        >
                        > It was cold here all day (Sat) but it got up to 40 for a few
                        > minutes. We had sleet and snow Friday but no acculation High Fri
                        > was 36. The ground is still to warm. Great testing weather... I
                        > think?
                        >
                        > for now I'm on the lookout for a "big man" rectangular bag like you
                        > see in Sportsmans Guide etc. I know they weigh a ton but I could
                        > test the concept with different hammocks to see if it will work for
                        > me. Then either get a Ponderosa, PeaPod, or a homemade version.
                        >
                        > Coy Boy
                        >
                        > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Moore <simva4040@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > Coy,
                        > > So many questions and many I cannot answer because in all honesty
                        > I have not taken the Ponderosa/Crib on a hike yet....our last 2
                        > sections we slacked ( I had done them before and La AquaNa needed
                        > them, they were around Hotsprings NC so we took the opportunity to
                        > use the hot springs after each hike-luxury hiking!).....The system I
                        > have hiked with is the taco/HH with varying insulation.
                        > > The 6'6" Ponderosa had no problem covering up my head and still
                        > providing good (well complete) coverage of the foot area.....but not
                        > wanting condensation inside I ordered the Nunatak balaclava to use
                        > in this system.
                        > > The Crib does lay differently than the HH, and though I have the a-
                        > sym I never slept crosswise in it and wont in the Crib....in trials
                        > with La AquaNa padding me down to see if the down was every
                        > compressed we found that wasnt even in the fetal position--so with
                        > that I'm thinking the Ponderosa may not be as wide in the middle as
                        > the peapod, it is still a wide bag....which makes me wonder what the
                        > Spear PeaPod will cost when it comes out in down????
                        > > As far as wind driven rain/snow....I use the Golite Cave2 tarp
                        > instead of the OME fly that came with the HH...I like it for the
                        > real estate below though it is a heavy tarp at around a pound....but
                        > it is so large I havent had any problems with the driven water-I did
                        > with the OME with some intense horizontal rain behind Albert Mtn
                        > shelter, my underquilt got wet but I was still warm, it was then
                        > that I switched to the Cave2....
                        > > Yes my Crib has 2 straps but when weighted and pulled tight they
                        > are essentially one strap leaving the hammock....did you look
                        > closely at the pics I posted at whiteblaze.net of the setup? if so
                        > you saw that the foot end appears only to have one strap leaving the
                        > foot box.....
                        > > Ok, sorry I was late and missed your questions....I do love the
                        > Ponderosa, we have taken it on many a hike to sleep under as a
                        > comforter in the motel or hostel and its original intent was paddle
                        > camping where the kayak doesnt care how much it weighs :)
                        > > Medicine Man
                        > > oooo, forgot, here in the shadow of Roan Mountain it hasnt gotten
                        > above 24 degrees all day.
                        > >
                        > > Coy <starnescr@y...> wrote:
                        > > Bob
                        > >
                        > > I seee no one answered your questions, mine either, so I'll give
                        > you
                        > > what I know and what I suspect. See below.
                        > >
                        > > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mittelman
                        > > <rmittelman@s...> wrote:
                        > > > Robert,
                        > > >
                        > > > I am considering buying a hammock and need either a new winter
                        > bag
                        > > for a January snow shoeing trip to northern Maine, or an overbag
                        > for
                        > > my long mummy bag that is comfortable into the single digits.
                        > Hence
                        > > my interest in your Crib/Ponderosa set up. I have a few questions:
                        > > >
                        > > > 1) what length Ponderosa do you have? I would think that the 7'
                        > > would be best for Pea Pod use, but for my overbag needs, 6' 6"
                        > > should be sufficient. I don't plan on using a hammock on my Maine
                        > > trip.
                        > >
                        > > I would think the 7 foot version would be best with a speer type,
                        > > The crib is shorter by a little and is wider at each end. it uses
                        > 2
                        > > straps and it dosent quite come together at the ends like a Soeer
                        > or
                        > > Hennessy. The bag will still need to slide down the hammock a
                        > > little but with a 7 foot bag it would be close to being able to
                        > zip
                        > > it closed at the middle of the foot end where the hanging strap
                        > > exits the bag.
                        > > >
                        > > > 2) Coy has a post where he questions using a Ponderosa as a Pea
                        > > Pod for a Speer hammock. I haven't seen a response from you, but
                        > > thought I'd ask if you have any thoughts on the subject.
                        > >
                        > > The Crib is narrower than the Speere so I may try to make a Speere
                        > a
                        > > little narrower. I don't think the Ponderosa is as big in the
                        > > middle as Eds PeaPod.
                        > > >
                        > > > 3) how does the Crib sleep relative to your Hennessey? Which is
                        > > more comfortable and why? Do you sleep in the Crib on the
                        > diagonal,
                        > > as in the Hennessey and Speer? If not, how do you avoid the
                        > banana
                        > > shape? Will sleeping on the diagonal be possible when using the
                        > > Ponderosa as a Pea Pod, given the barrel shape of the Ponderosa?
                        > >
                        > > I have a Crib but mine uses the hoops so mine dosn't pinch at the
                        > > shoulders as much as the regular Crib. I have tried mine without
                        > > the spreaded bars (hoops) and it definatly closes around me
                        > tighter
                        > > than my hennessys do. But it is still very confortable. I sleep
                        > a
                        > > little flatter in the HH than I do in the Crib especially sans the
                        > > spreader hoops.
                        > > >
                        > > > 4) have you used the Crib/Ponderosa in snowy, windy conditions?
                        > > If so, was snow blowing into the hammock a problem?
                        > >
                        > > I imagine the head sticking out will allow some blowing snow
                        > around
                        > > the face area but hanging the tarp low and devising a wind break
                        > > with spare rain jacket etc at the head end will help. When using
                        > > the Ponderosa as a PeaPod I doubt the netting would be in use even
                        > > though it helps block a little wind and most snow. Maybe throw a
                        > > Frogg Togg top over my head if the snow was blowing that bad.
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks.
                        > > >
                        > > > Bob Mittelman
                        > >
                        > > Coy Boy
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