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The crazy junk you can use

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  • m2b1997
    Yeah, this gets real crazy. Fall 2007 I found myself out freediving here in NH and found myself with the real simple problem of not having the proper equipment
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
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      Yeah, this gets real crazy.

      Fall 2007 I found myself out freediving here in NH and found myself
      with the real simple problem of not having the proper equipment for
      doing much fall time diving, err not having a good enough wetsuit to
      keep me warm in colder water. I could do 60 degree water temps fr 20-
      25 minutes a time but not much lower. I kept looking/thinking around
      for different ideas that might allow me to extend the season. I knew
      I had to find a way to keep the water off me in the first place(VB).
      I knew something along this line would work quite well. Everything I
      tried failed miserably as I couldn't get the nice tight fit that I
      need. One of the things I tried was a sauna suit, aka true to life
      sweat suit. It's light weight and it has(I can't think the right
      term now) spandex style closures on the neck, wrists and ankles. I
      bought it at Wal-Mart for probably under $10. Like I said it didn't
      work. I had also tried cutting up 4-6mil plastic and taping it
      together, didn't work.

      Okay, now to the present. Seeing the forecast for mostly clear skies
      and near zero overnight I decided to camping out in the hammock once
      again. I knew this would be an even more interesting test since I
      had failed so miserably to sleep on the ground at 10 degrees. If I
      could manage to sleep in a hammock at 0 that would prove Ed and the
      boys to big liars about having a harder time staying warm sleeping in
      a hammock than on the ground. You see it coming Ed, don't ya.

      Even though the fleece mouth guard worked fine the previous night I
      wanted to find and try out the ski face mask that I normally used to
      carry with me whenever I did any winter dayhiking(haven't did any of
      that since like '03 or '04). In searching for it I stumbled into the
      sauna suit. I did see and think even picked it up to move it the day
      before when looking for the face mask. I got to thinking about VB
      again. My thought was simple, this is a full body VB and not
      something that will just go under you. I didn't really know what to
      expect. I finally hopped back on and reread Dave's VB posting
      again. This time it started to make much more sense than it did when
      I browsed through it a couple of days ago. It made me want to try
      the sauna suit even more and totally forget the idea of trying out
      the Gore-Tex jacket/pants. I knew the sauna suit would possibly work
      better and for a true hiking/camping situation it would take less
      space and weigh less as well.

      I finally found the face mask and put it aside as well. I also
      pulled out the long johns as I was forming my strategy out quite
      nicely.

      Head Base layer: neoprene hood, from kayaking/freediving.
      Head VB: swimming cap.
      Head Insulation: regular winter hat.

      Body Base Layer: long johns.
      Body VB: sauna suit.
      Body Insulation: regular sweat suit.

      Feet Base Layer: regular pair of mid calf socks(heavweight thermal
      work socks I bought a couple of months ago at a discount store
      similiar to the combined mix of Big Lots/Kmart).
      Feet VB: cut up some of the 4-6 mil plastic from the warm diving gear
      attempt and wrap it around the feet.
      Feet Insulation: another pair of the same work socks.

      Hands: bare, no nothing.

      The works socks is what I have been using thus far while out
      camping. I wear them around the house during the winter months to
      keep my feet warm since I don't have insulated floors.

      About 10:15PM I start suiting up. The temperature outside is already
      10 degrees with full moonshine beating down on western NH. As I put
      on the footwear including putting on the boots I noticed that my feet
      are getting cold. I don't think much about since the boots have a
      little moisture in them from being used for shoveling snow and
      everything else.

      10:45PM. Got the hammock setup and finally in the sleeping bag.
      Things not bad at all. The moon is shining very brightly.

      11:45PM. Feet are cold, the rest of the body is nice and warm. I
      can't figure out what the difference is. Why is it I'm doing the
      same thing to the feet that I'm doing to the rest of the body but
      only the feet are getting cold. I finally give up and reach down and
      take off the outer layer on the left foot. I pull the plastic off
      and put the outer sock back on. Within two to three minutes the warm
      is already returning to foot quite rapidly. I continue to layer
      there for a few more minutes and finally said the heck with it and
      pull the plastic out of the right foot as well. I still stumped on
      this. Why didn't the feet want to stay warm.

      2:00AM. After a couple of hours or restful sleep I wake up and go to
      the bathroom. I'm realizng one thing, I HATE this face mask, give me
      back the fleece from the night before. As I got into he hammock very
      first thing about 10:45 I thought about fleece but I didn't go back
      inside to get it. So far everything is going fine. Feet are back up
      to nice temp and everything else is staying warm as well. I would
      say it was probably in the single digits at this point(I may have
      been optimistic though). I was noticing a little bit of a feel of
      clamminess naturally from the insensible perspiration, but it wasn't
      bad and it wasn't causing me to be cold.

      5:45AM. A couple more hours of sleep. Yes, I REALLY HATE this face
      mask, where's the darn fleece. I wake up and have to go to the
      bathroom once again. My mind is pretty well made up that if I get up
      I'm going inside. Heck it's been seven hours and the only three
      things I'm noticing are the feet starting to get a bit cold again,
      the hands are starting to notice a small amount cold and the
      clamminess. It is almost wanting to give a bit of claustraphobic
      (sp?) feel to things.

      I get up and first thing after putting on the boots is to walk back
      to thermometer and take a leak at the same time. I was figuring 5
      degrees. I was wrong. My original guess yesterday was pretty much
      right on the money. Turns out I had my first ever sub-zero night
      out. It was between -1 and -2 degrees. I had to check two or three
      times to make sure I was reading it correctly. I was surprised I was
      able to stay as warm as I did when the temperature was that cold.

      I admit I was noticing a bit of a chill starting to form before I got
      out of the bag but I could have fallen back without any problem. I
      knew by getting up and going to the bathroom my mind would fight me
      to get back into bed since the house was less than a two minute walk
      away.

      Seeing what I have seen thus far has brought up a couple of questions:
      1. Why did the feet fail when I was doing the same exact thing to the
      feet that I did to the rest of the body??? This really has me
      stumped.

      2. I realize the next crazy idea I'm about to mention may have
      problems in terms of not being strong enough to survive plus it isn't
      easy to pack into a backpack, unlike nylon, but...Seeing the VB all
      around the body worked quite well, other than the feet why not use
      the same setup I used overnight but instead of a cotton or nylon
      hammock instead use 4-6 mil plastic for a winter hammock? It would
      give you a double VB and the outer VB would be water/snow proof as
      well. During the summer months it would be totally stupid but during
      the winter months I see it being a viable concept as long as it's
      strong enough.

      Now should I be bold and brave late this coming week and try to head
      out and do some more outside winter camping??? Heck there only
      saying highs of 10 degrees and overnight lows of -10 to -15 by late
      this coming week. LOL!!!

      MEANT 2B
    • Ed Speer
      M2b, you re the man! By willingly trying new things, you ve on your way to full winter camping! As you found with your feet, VBs don t always do exactly what
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        M2b, you're the man! By willingly trying new things, you've on your way to
        full winter camping! As you found with your feet, VBs don't always do
        exactly what we expect-a good reason to test at home in all conditions
        before hearing to the outback. You obviously need more insulation on your
        feet-why, I'm not sure. It may have nothing to do with your gear. You
        might take heed of the advice to stoke the furnace well-meaning eat well
        before going to bed. Each hour an average person burns 50 cal per square
        meter of surface area just to maintain resting body warmth-thus you need
        significant long-lasting high-energy fuel in your body to produce enough
        heat to stay comfortable, especially on a cold winter night. I've found
        that when I'm sleeping on low fuel, my feet & hands get cold first. A hot
        midnight drink will often help me get thru those nights. If you ate several
        hours before going to bed, or ate quick-burning calories for dinner, you may
        not have had enough fuel to make it thru the night...Ed



        Moderator, Hammock Camping List

        Author, Hammock Camping book

        Editor, Hammock Camping Newsletters

        Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



        From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of m2b1997
        Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:02 AM
        To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use



        Yeah, this gets real crazy.

        Fall 2007 I found myself out freediving here in NH and found myself
        with the real simple problem of not having the proper equipment for
        doing much fall time diving, err not having a good enough wetsuit to
        keep me warm in colder water. I could do 60 degree water temps fr 20-
        25 minutes a time but not much lower. I kept looking/thinking around
        for different ideas that might allow me to extend the season. I knew
        I had to find a way to keep the water off me in the first place(VB).
        I knew something along this line would work quite well. Everything I
        tried failed miserably as I couldn't get the nice tight fit that I
        need. One of the things I tried was a sauna suit, aka true to life
        sweat suit. It's light weight and it has(I can't think the right
        term now) spandex style closures on the neck, wrists and ankles. I
        bought it at Wal-Mart for probably under $10. Like I said it didn't
        work. I had also tried cutting up 4-6mil plastic and taping it
        together, didn't work.

        Okay, now to the present. Seeing the forecast for mostly clear skies
        and near zero overnight I decided to camping out in the hammock once
        again. I knew this would be an even more interesting test since I
        had failed so miserably to sleep on the ground at 10 degrees. If I
        could manage to sleep in a hammock at 0 that would prove Ed and the
        boys to big liars about having a harder time staying warm sleeping in
        a hammock than on the ground. You see it coming Ed, don't ya.

        Even though the fleece mouth guard worked fine the previous night I
        wanted to find and try out the ski face mask that I normally used to
        carry with me whenever I did any winter dayhiking(haven't did any of
        that since like '03 or '04). In searching for it I stumbled into the
        sauna suit. I did see and think even picked it up to move it the day
        before when looking for the face mask. I got to thinking about VB
        again. My thought was simple, this is a full body VB and not
        something that will just go under you. I didn't really know what to
        expect. I finally hopped back on and reread Dave's VB posting
        again. This time it started to make much more sense than it did when
        I browsed through it a couple of days ago. It made me want to try
        the sauna suit even more and totally forget the idea of trying out
        the Gore-Tex jacket/pants. I knew the sauna suit would possibly work
        better and for a true hiking/camping situation it would take less
        space and weigh less as well.

        I finally found the face mask and put it aside as well. I also
        pulled out the long johns as I was forming my strategy out quite
        nicely.

        Head Base layer: neoprene hood, from kayaking/freediving.
        Head VB: swimming cap.
        Head Insulation: regular winter hat.

        Body Base Layer: long johns.
        Body VB: sauna suit.
        Body Insulation: regular sweat suit.

        Feet Base Layer: regular pair of mid calf socks(heavweight thermal
        work socks I bought a couple of months ago at a discount store
        similiar to the combined mix of Big Lots/Kmart).
        Feet VB: cut up some of the 4-6 mil plastic from the warm diving gear
        attempt and wrap it around the feet.
        Feet Insulation: another pair of the same work socks.

        Hands: bare, no nothing.

        The works socks is what I have been using thus far while out
        camping. I wear them around the house during the winter months to
        keep my feet warm since I don't have insulated floors.

        About 10:15PM I start suiting up. The temperature outside is already
        10 degrees with full moonshine beating down on western NH. As I put
        on the footwear including putting on the boots I noticed that my feet
        are getting cold. I don't think much about since the boots have a
        little moisture in them from being used for shoveling snow and
        everything else.

        10:45PM. Got the hammock setup and finally in the sleeping bag.
        Things not bad at all. The moon is shining very brightly.

        11:45PM. Feet are cold, the rest of the body is nice and warm. I
        can't figure out what the difference is. Why is it I'm doing the
        same thing to the feet that I'm doing to the rest of the body but
        only the feet are getting cold. I finally give up and reach down and
        take off the outer layer on the left foot. I pull the plastic off
        and put the outer sock back on. Within two to three minutes the warm
        is already returning to foot quite rapidly. I continue to layer
        there for a few more minutes and finally said the heck with it and
        pull the plastic out of the right foot as well. I still stumped on
        this. Why didn't the feet want to stay warm.

        2:00AM. After a couple of hours or restful sleep I wake up and go to
        the bathroom. I'm realizng one thing, I HATE this face mask, give me
        back the fleece from the night before. As I got into he hammock very
        first thing about 10:45 I thought about fleece but I didn't go back
        inside to get it. So far everything is going fine. Feet are back up
        to nice temp and everything else is staying warm as well. I would
        say it was probably in the single digits at this point(I may have
        been optimistic though). I was noticing a little bit of a feel of
        clamminess naturally from the insensible perspiration, but it wasn't
        bad and it wasn't causing me to be cold.

        5:45AM. A couple more hours of sleep. Yes, I REALLY HATE this face
        mask, where's the darn fleece. I wake up and have to go to the
        bathroom once again. My mind is pretty well made up that if I get up
        I'm going inside. Heck it's been seven hours and the only three
        things I'm noticing are the feet starting to get a bit cold again,
        the hands are starting to notice a small amount cold and the
        clamminess. It is almost wanting to give a bit of claustraphobic
        (sp?) feel to things.

        I get up and first thing after putting on the boots is to walk back
        to thermometer and take a leak at the same time. I was figuring 5
        degrees. I was wrong. My original guess yesterday was pretty much
        right on the money. Turns out I had my first ever sub-zero night
        out. It was between -1 and -2 degrees. I had to check two or three
        times to make sure I was reading it correctly. I was surprised I was
        able to stay as warm as I did when the temperature was that cold.

        I admit I was noticing a bit of a chill starting to form before I got
        out of the bag but I could have fallen back without any problem. I
        knew by getting up and going to the bathroom my mind would fight me
        to get back into bed since the house was less than a two minute walk
        away.

        Seeing what I have seen thus far has brought up a couple of questions:
        1. Why did the feet fail when I was doing the same exact thing to the
        feet that I did to the rest of the body??? This really has me
        stumped.

        2. I realize the next crazy idea I'm about to mention may have
        problems in terms of not being strong enough to survive plus it isn't
        easy to pack into a backpack, unlike nylon, but...Seeing the VB all
        around the body worked quite well, other than the feet why not use
        the same setup I used overnight but instead of a cotton or nylon
        hammock instead use 4-6 mil plastic for a winter hammock? It would
        give you a double VB and the outer VB would be water/snow proof as
        well. During the summer months it would be totally stupid but during
        the winter months I see it being a viable concept as long as it's
        strong enough.

        Now should I be bold and brave late this coming week and try to head
        out and do some more outside winter camping??? Heck there only
        saying highs of 10 degrees and overnight lows of -10 to -15 by late
        this coming week. LOL!!!

        MEANT 2B





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • m2b1997
        Ed, in a case like this which is the best fuel source though, carbs, protein or fats? Knowing how the body uses the different types(not the best on
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
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          Ed, in a case like this which is the best fuel source though, carbs,
          protein or fats? Knowing how the body uses the different types(not
          the best on understanding protein) I would say almost either/or in
          terms of fats and carbs. Fats for the slow burning and carbs for the
          faster burning. Just make sure the carbs are such that they aren't
          sugars. I had filled up a lot on starches last night, baked beans
          with potatoes and hominy.

          The feet are the farthest thing from the heart so they should be the
          first thing to come under the influence of cold weather. I am
          surprised, now that I think about I normally have had a cold hand
          syndrome for the past...way too many years, I haven't hardly noticed
          it at all this winter and I'm surprised I haven't noticed either of
          the last two nights.

          Dave, since I forgot to ask before, why the bandana with the fleece
          for the mouth/nose cover? Is it for further wicking the moisture
          away or what? I'm definitely going back to the fleece. You look you
          would think it wouldn't work, but boy it works a lot better than the
          ski mask.

          MEANT 2B

          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@...> wrote:
          >
          > M2b, you're the man! By willingly trying new things, you've on
          your way to
          > full winter camping! As you found with your feet, VBs don't always
          do
          > exactly what we expect-a good reason to test at home in all
          conditions
          > before hearing to the outback. You obviously need more insulation
          on your
          > feet-why, I'm not sure. It may have nothing to do with your
          gear. You
          > might take heed of the advice to stoke the furnace well-meaning eat
          well
          > before going to bed. Each hour an average person burns 50 cal per
          square
          > meter of surface area just to maintain resting body warmth-thus you
          need
          > significant long-lasting high-energy fuel in your body to produce
          enough
          > heat to stay comfortable, especially on a cold winter night. I've
          found
          > that when I'm sleeping on low fuel, my feet & hands get cold
          first. A hot
          > midnight drink will often help me get thru those nights. If you
          ate several
          > hours before going to bed, or ate quick-burning calories for
          dinner, you may
          > not have had enough fuel to make it thru the night...Ed
        • Arye P. R.
          you would be better with complex carbs (whole grains, beans) to start and finish with. Yes, avoid simple refined sugars, alcohol etc. Some honey would be is
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
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            you would be better with complex carbs (whole grains, beans) to start and finish with. Yes, avoid simple refined sugars, alcohol etc. Some honey would be is better than white sugar. Proteins are usually used to repair the body so some more would be better than fewer and a just few calories from fats as fats are usually the last to be used and may be stored faster. Caloricly there are 4 calories per gram of Protein and/or Carb (simple or complex) vs 9 calories per gram of Fat (any kind, vegi or animal - vegi, mono or polyunsaturated fats are better for you). Also avoid foods that your body will need to warm up (cold water, cold cereal etc) prior to using so drink warmer fluids and hot foods. Try some hot oatmeal, cream of wheat, barley soup before bedding down. White potatoes and corn (hominy) while complex do break down / digest faster than other more complex ones.

            Your feet are usually higher than your heart in a hammock and get less blood than your head and hands. As far as your hands you may be tucking them into warm spots (under arms) and not realizing it along with slipping them up your sleeves too.

            You may want to keep a bottle of warm water in the hammock with you just in case. To drink warm is better for you than cold for many reasons.

            Sapere Aude,

            Arye P. Rubenstein


            Imagination is more important than knowledge...
            It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education... Albert Einstein




            ________________________________
            From: m2b1997 <m2b1997@...>
            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 10:13:40 AM
            Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use


            Ed, in a case like this which is the best fuel source though, carbs,
            protein or fats? Knowing how the body uses the different types(not
            the best on understanding protein) I would say almost either/or in
            terms of fats and carbs. Fats for the slow burning and carbs for the
            faster burning. Just make sure the carbs are such that they aren't
            sugars. I had filled up a lot on starches last night, baked beans
            with potatoes and hominy.

            The feet are the farthest thing from the heart so they should be the
            first thing to come under the influence of cold weather. I am
            surprised, now that I think about I normally have had a cold hand
            syndrome for the past...way too many years, I haven't hardly noticed
            it at all this winter and I'm surprised I haven't noticed either of
            the last two nights.

            Dave, since I forgot to ask before, why the bandana with the fleece
            for the mouth/nose cover? Is it for further wicking the moisture
            away or what? I'm definitely going back to the fleece. You look you
            would think it wouldn't work, but boy it works a lot better than the
            ski mask.

            MEANT 2B

            --- In hammockcamping@ yahoogroups. com, "Ed Speer" <ed@...> wrote:
            >
            > M2b, you're the man! By willingly trying new things, you've on
            your way to
            > full winter camping! As you found with your feet, VBs don't always
            do
            > exactly what we expect-a good reason to test at home in all
            conditions
            > before hearing to the outback. You obviously need more insulation
            on your
            > feet-why, I'm not sure. It may have nothing to do with your
            gear. You
            > might take heed of the advice to stoke the furnace well-meaning eat
            well
            > before going to bed. Each hour an average person burns 50 cal per
            square
            > meter of surface area just to maintain resting body warmth-thus you
            need
            > significant long-lasting high-energy fuel in your body to produce
            enough
            > heat to stay comfortable, especially on a cold winter night. I've
            found
            > that when I'm sleeping on low fuel, my feet & hands get cold
            first. A hot
            > midnight drink will often help me get thru those nights. If you
            ate several
            > hours before going to bed, or ate quick-burning calories for
            dinner, you may
            > not have had enough fuel to make it thru the night...Ed

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • EHamilton
            Very cool! I mean, uh, warm. Sauna suit. Wow. Think it would last as rain gear on an AT thru-hike? I know it s not breathable, but heck, once you start
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Very cool! I mean, uh, warm. Sauna suit. Wow. Think it would last as rain gear on an AT thru-hike? I know it's not breathable, but heck, once you start sweating, breathability is sort of an oxymoron even in Gore-Tex (or what I have, Marmot Precip.)

              MacGyver




              ________________________________
              From: m2b1997 m2b1997@...
               I got to thinking about VB
              again.  My thought was simple, this is a full body VB and not
              something that will just go under you.  I didn't really know what to
              expect.  I finally hopped back on and reread Dave's VB posting
              again.  This time it started to make much more sense than it did when
              I browsed through it a couple of days ago.  It made me want to try
              the sauna suit even more and totally forget the idea of trying out
              the Gore-Tex jacket/pants.  I knew the sauna suit would possibly work
              better and for a true hiking/camping situation it would take less
              space and weigh less as well.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bruce W. Calkins
              No, it would not work as a rainsuit. While you are exercising you need to pass sweat and heat. Trapping the heat may cause heat stroke, which can be fatal.
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                No, it would not work as a rainsuit. While you are exercising you need to
                pass sweat and heat. Trapping the heat may cause heat stroke, which can be
                fatal.



                Black Wolfe

                Bruce W.




                Very cool! I mean, uh, warm. Sauna suit. Wow. Think it would last as rain
                gear on an AT thru-hike? I know it's not breathable, but heck, once you
                start sweating, breathability is sort of an oxymoron even in Gore-Tex (or
                what I have, Marmot Precip.)

                MacGyver
              • tim garner
                    I don t know if this has been mentioned & I missed it, but when you think about winter foot wear, you need to be sure that the layers on your feet are
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
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                      I don't know if this has been mentioned & I missed it, but when you think about winter foot wear, you need to be sure that the layers on your feet are not tight enough to restrict blood flow.  Warm blood coming into your feet is what's bringing the warmth.
                      If your winter foot layers aren't carefully sized so that they don't squeeze those blood vessels, where's the warmth going to com from that's supposed to heat up your foot insulation???<G>.
                   Even a couple layers of tight socks can begin to do that.
                  don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!

                  --- On Sat, 1/10/09, m2b1997 <m2b1997@...> wrote:
                  From: m2b1997 <m2b1997@...>
                  Subject: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use
                  To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 8:02 AM

                  Yeah, this gets real crazy.

                  Fall 2007 I found myself out freediving here in NH and found myself
                  with the real simple problem of not having the proper equipment for
                  doing much fall time diving, err not having a good enough wetsuit to
                  keep me warm in colder water. I could do 60 degree water temps fr 20-
                  25 minutes a time but not much lower. I kept looking/thinking around
                  for different ideas that might allow me to extend the season. I knew
                  I had to find a way to keep the water off me in the first place(VB).
                  I knew something along this line would work quite well. Everything I
                  tried failed miserably as I couldn't get the nice tight fit that I
                  need. One of the things I tried was a sauna suit, aka true to life
                  sweat suit. It's light weight and it has(I can't think the right
                  term now) spandex style closures on the neck, wrists and ankles. I
                  bought it at Wal-Mart for probably under $10. Like I said it didn't
                  work. I had also tried cutting up 4-6mil plastic and taping it
                  together, didn't work.

                  Okay, now to the present. Seeing the forecast for mostly clear skies
                  and near zero overnight I decided to camping out in the hammock once
                  again. I knew this would be an even more interesting test since I
                  had failed so miserably to sleep on the ground at 10 degrees. If I
                  could manage to sleep in a hammock at 0 that would prove Ed and the
                  boys to big liars about having a harder time staying warm sleeping in
                  a hammock than on the ground. You see it coming Ed, don't ya.

                  Even though the fleece mouth guard worked fine the previous night I
                  wanted to find and try out the ski face mask that I normally used to
                  carry with me whenever I did any winter dayhiking(haven't did any of
                  that since like '03 or '04). In searching for it I stumbled into the
                  sauna suit. I did see and think even picked it up to move it the day
                  before when looking for the face mask. I got to thinking about VB
                  again. My thought was simple, this is a full body VB and not
                  something that will just go under you. I didn't really know what to
                  expect. I finally hopped back on and reread Dave's VB posting
                  again. This time it started to make much more sense than it did when
                  I browsed through it a couple of days ago. It made me want to try
                  the sauna suit even more and totally forget the idea of trying out
                  the Gore-Tex jacket/pants. I knew the sauna suit would possibly work
                  better and for a true hiking/camping situation it would take less
                  space and weigh less as well.

                  I finally found the face mask and put it aside as well. I also
                  pulled out the long johns as I was forming my strategy out quite
                  nicely.

                  Head Base layer: neoprene hood, from kayaking/freediving.
                  Head VB: swimming cap.
                  Head Insulation: regular winter hat.

                  Body Base Layer: long johns.
                  Body VB: sauna suit.
                  Body Insulation: regular sweat suit.

                  Feet Base Layer: regular pair of mid calf socks(heavweight thermal
                  work socks I bought a couple of months ago at a discount store
                  similiar to the combined mix of Big Lots/Kmart).
                  Feet VB: cut up some of the 4-6 mil plastic from the warm diving gear
                  attempt and wrap it around the feet.
                  Feet Insulation: another pair of the same work socks.

                  Hands: bare, no nothing.

                  The works socks is what I have been using thus far while out
                  camping. I wear them around the house during the winter months to
                  keep my feet warm since I don't have insulated floors.

                  About 10:15PM I start suiting up. The temperature outside is already
                  10 degrees with full moonshine beating down on western NH. As I put
                  on the footwear including putting on the boots I noticed that my feet
                  are getting cold. I don't think much about since the boots have a
                  little moisture in them from being used for shoveling snow and
                  everything else.

                  10:45PM. Got the hammock setup and finally in the sleeping bag.
                  Things not bad at all. The moon is shining very brightly.

                  11:45PM. Feet are cold, the rest of the body is nice and warm. I
                  can't figure out what the difference is. Why is it I'm doing the
                  same thing to the feet that I'm doing to the rest of the body but
                  only the feet are getting cold. I finally give up and reach down and
                  take off the outer layer on the left foot. I pull the plastic off
                  and put the outer sock back on. Within two to three minutes the warm
                  is already returning to foot quite rapidly. I continue to layer
                  there for a few more minutes and finally said the heck with it and
                  pull the plastic out of the right foot as well. I still stumped on
                  this. Why didn't the feet want to stay warm.

                  2:00AM. After a couple of hours or restful sleep I wake up and go to
                  the bathroom. I'm realizng one thing, I HATE this face mask, give me
                  back the fleece from the night before. As I got into he hammock very
                  first thing about 10:45 I thought about fleece but I didn't go back
                  inside to get it. So far everything is going fine. Feet are back up
                  to nice temp and everything else is staying warm as well. I would
                  say it was probably in the single digits at this point(I may have
                  been optimistic though). I was noticing a little bit of a feel of
                  clamminess naturally from the insensible perspiration, but it wasn't
                  bad and it wasn't causing me to be cold.

                  5:45AM. A couple more hours of sleep. Yes, I REALLY HATE this face
                  mask, where's the darn fleece. I wake up and have to go to the
                  bathroom once again. My mind is pretty well made up that if I get up
                  I'm going inside. Heck it's been seven hours and the only three
                  things I'm noticing are the feet starting to get a bit cold again,
                  the hands are starting to notice a small amount cold and the
                  clamminess. It is almost wanting to give a bit of claustraphobic
                  (sp?) feel to things.

                  I get up and first thing after putting on the boots is to walk back
                  to thermometer and take a leak at the same time. I was figuring 5
                  degrees. I was wrong. My original guess yesterday was pretty much
                  right on the money. Turns out I had my first ever sub-zero night
                  out. It was between -1 and -2 degrees. I had to check two or three
                  times to make sure I was reading it correctly. I was surprised I was
                  able to stay as warm as I did when the temperature was that cold.

                  I admit I was noticing a bit of a chill starting to form before I got
                  out of the bag but I could have fallen back without any problem. I
                  knew by getting up and going to the bathroom my mind would fight me
                  to get back into bed since the house was less than a two minute walk
                  away.

                  Seeing what I have seen thus far has brought up a couple of questions:
                  1. Why did the feet fail when I was doing the same exact thing to the
                  feet that I did to the rest of the body??? This really has me
                  stumped.

                  2. I realize the next crazy idea I'm about to mention may have
                  problems in terms of not being strong enough to survive plus it isn't
                  easy to pack into a backpack, unlike nylon, but...Seeing the VB all
                  around the body worked quite well, other than the feet why not use
                  the same setup I used overnight but instead of a cotton or nylon
                  hammock instead use 4-6 mil plastic for a winter hammock? It would
                  give you a double VB and the outer VB would be water/snow proof as
                  well. During the summer months it would be totally stupid but during
                  the winter months I see it being a viable concept as long as it's
                  strong enough.

                  Now should I be bold and brave late this coming week and try to head
                  out and do some more outside winter camping??? Heck there only
                  saying highs of 10 degrees and overnight lows of -10 to -15 by late
                  this coming week. LOL!!!

                  MEANT 2B


                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ratsmouth@aol.com
                  In really cold conditions, my standbys are wool socks and down booties, with pant legs down over the socks and tucked into the booties, at least until I move
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In really cold conditions, my standbys are wool socks and down booties,
                    with pant legs down over the socks and tucked into the booties, at
                    least until I move around a little. Lots of insulation. No cold feet.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: tim garner <slowhike@...>
                    To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 6:24 pm
                    Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use



                        I don't know if this has been mentioned & I missed it,
                    but when you think about winter foot wear, you need to be sure that the
                    layers on your feet are not tight enough to restrict blood flow.  Warm
                    blood coming into your feet is what's bringing the warmth.

                        If your winter foot layers aren't carefully sized so that they
                    don't squeeze those blood vessels, where's the warmth going to com from
                    that's supposed to heat up your foot insulation???<G>.

                     Even a couple layers of tight socks can begin to do that.

                    don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!



                    --- On Sat, 1/10/09, m2b1997 <m2b1997@...> wrote:

                    From: m2b1997 <m2b1997@...>

                    Subject: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use

                    To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com

                    Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 8:02 AM



                    Yeah, this gets real crazy.



                    Fall 2007 I found myself out freediving here in NH and found myself

                    with the real simple probl
                    em of not having the proper equipment for

                    doing much fall time diving, err not having a good enough wetsuit to

                    keep me warm in colder water. I could do 60 degree water temps fr 20-

                    25 minutes a time but not much lower. I kept looking/thinking around

                    for different ideas that might allow me to extend the season. I knew

                    I had to find a way to keep the water off me in the first place(VB).

                    I knew something along this line would work quite well. Everything I

                    tried failed miserably as I couldn't get the nice tight fit that I

                    need. One of the things I tried was a sauna suit, aka true to life

                    sweat suit. It's light weight and it has(I can't think the right

                    term now) spandex style closures on the neck, wrists and ankles. I

                    bought it at Wal-Mart for probably under $10. Like I said it didn't

                    work. I had also tried cutting up 4-6mil plastic and taping it

                    together, didn't work.



                    Okay, now to the present. Seeing the forecast for mostly clear skies

                    and near zero overnight I decided to camping out in the hammock once

                    again. I knew this would be an even more interesting test since I

                    had failed so miserably to sleep on the ground at 10 degrees. If I

                    could manage to sleep in a hammock at 0 that would prove Ed and the

                    boys to big liars about having a harder time staying warm sleeping in

                    a hammock than on the
                    ground. You see it coming Ed, don't ya.



                    Even though the fleece mouth guard worked fine the previous night I

                    wanted to find and try out the ski face mask that I normally used to

                    carry with me whenever I did any winter dayhiking(haven't did any of

                    that since like '03 or '04). In searching for it I stumbled into the

                    sauna suit. I did see and think even picked it up to move it the day

                    before when looking for the face mask. I got to thinking about VB

                    again. My thought was simple, this is a full body VB and not

                    something that will just go under you. I didn't really know what to

                    expect. I finally hopped back on and reread Dave's VB posting

                    again. This time it started to make much more sense than it did when

                    I browsed through it a couple of days ago. It made me want to try

                    the sauna suit even more and totally forget the idea of trying out

                    the Gore-Tex jacket/pants. I knew the sauna suit would possibly work

                    better and for a true hiking/camping situation it would take less

                    space and weigh less as well.



                    I finally found the face mask and put it aside as well. I also

                    pulled out the long johns as I was forming my strategy out quite

                    nicely.



                    Head Base layer: neoprene hood, from kayaking/freediving.

                    Head VB: swimming cap.

                    Head Insulation: regular winter hat.



                    Body Base Layer: l
                    ong johns.

                    Body VB: sauna suit.

                    Body Insulation: regular sweat suit.



                    Feet Base Layer: regular pair of mid calf socks(heavweight thermal

                    work socks I bought a couple of months ago at a discount store

                    similiar to the combined mix of Big Lots/Kmart).

                    Feet VB: cut up some of the 4-6 mil plastic from the warm diving gear

                    attempt and wrap it around the feet.

                    Feet Insulation: another pair of the same work socks.



                    Hands: bare, no nothing.



                    The works socks is what I have been using thus far while out

                    camping. I wear them around the house during the winter months to

                    keep my feet warm since I don't have insulated floors.



                    About 10:15PM I start suiting up. The temperature outside is already

                    10 degrees with full moonshine beating down on western NH. As I put

                    on the footwear including putting on the boots I noticed that my feet

                    are getting cold. I don't think much about since the boots have a

                    little moisture in them from being used for shoveling snow and

                    everything else.



                    10:45PM. Got the hammock setup and finally in the sleeping bag.

                    Things not bad at all. The moon is shining very brightly.



                    11:45PM. Feet are cold, the rest of the body is nice and warm. I

                    can't figure out what the difference is. Why is it I'm doing the

                    same thing to the feet that I'm doing to the rest
                    of the body but

                    only the feet are getting cold. I finally give up and reach down and

                    take off the outer layer on the left foot. I pull the plastic off

                    and put the outer sock back on. Within two to three minutes the warm

                    is already returning to foot quite rapidly. I continue to layer

                    there for a few more minutes and finally said the heck with it and

                    pull the plastic out of the right foot as well. I still stumped on

                    this. Why didn't the feet want to stay warm.



                    2:00AM. After a couple of hours or restful sleep I wake up and go to

                    the bathroom. I'm realizng one thing, I HATE this face mask, give me

                    back the fleece from the night before. As I got into he hammock very

                    first thing about 10:45 I thought about fleece but I didn't go back

                    inside to get it. So far everything is going fine. Feet are back up

                    to nice temp and everything else is staying warm as well. I would

                    say it was probably in the single digits at this point(I may have

                    been optimistic though). I was noticing a little bit of a feel of

                    clamminess naturally from the insensible perspiration, but it wasn't

                    bad and it wasn't causing me to be cold.



                    5:45AM. A couple more hours of sleep. Yes, I REALLY HATE this face

                    mask, where's the darn fleece. I wake up and have to go to the

                    bathroom once again. My mind is pretty w
                    ell made up that if I get up

                    I'm going inside. Heck it's been seven hours and the only three

                    things I'm noticing are the feet starting to get a bit cold again,

                    the hands are starting to notice a small amount cold and the

                    clamminess. It is almost wanting to give a bit of claustraphobic

                    (sp?) feel to things.



                    I get up and first thing after putting on the boots is to walk back

                    to thermometer and take a leak at the same time. I was figuring 5

                    degrees. I was wrong. My original guess yesterday was pretty much

                    right on the money. Turns out I had my first ever sub-zero night

                    out. It was between -1 and -2 degrees. I had to check two or three

                    times to make sure I was reading it correctly. I was surprised I was

                    able to stay as warm as I did when the temperature was that cold.



                    I admit I was noticing a bit of a chill starting to form before I got

                    out of the bag but I could have fallen back without any problem. I

                    knew by getting up and going to the bathroom my mind would fight me

                    to get back into bed since the house was less than a two minute walk

                    away.



                    Seeing what I have seen thus far has brought up a couple of questions:

                    1. Why did the feet fail when I was doing the same exact thing to the

                    feet that I did to the rest of the body??? This really has me

                    stumped.





                    2. I realize the next crazy idea I'm about to mention may have

                    problems in terms of not being strong enough to survive plus it isn't

                    easy to pack into a backpack, unlike nylon, but...Seeing the VB all

                    around the body worked quite well, other than the feet why not use

                    the same setup I used overnight but instead of a cotton or nylon

                    hammock instead use 4-6 mil plastic for a winter hammock? It would

                    give you a double VB and the outer VB would be water/snow proof as

                    well. During the summer months it would be totally stupid but during

                    the winter months I see it being a viable concept as long as it's

                    strong enough.



                    Now should I be bold and brave late this coming week and try to head

                    out and do some more outside winter camping??? Heck there only

                    saying highs of 10 degrees and overnight lows of -10 to -15 by late

                    this coming week. LOL!!!



                    MEANT 2B



                    ------------------------------------



                    Yahoo! Groups Links



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • tim garner
                      Yep, I apparently have circulation problems w/ my feet anyway. I have had a time keeping them warm standing or sitting around camp in the winter. Looser
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                        Yep, I apparently have circulation problems w/ my feet anyway. I have had a time keeping them warm standing or sitting around camp in the winter. Looser layers, including the boots, have helped.
                        I'm getting ready to try out a pair of NEOS over boots (the Villagers) in a couple weeks.
                         I'll add chemical heat packs if I need to. If so, I plan to put them inside the over boots & on top of the toes of the boots.

                      don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!

                      --- On Sat, 1/10/09, ratsmouth@... <ratsmouth@...> wrote:
                      From: ratsmouth@... <ratsmouth@...>
                      Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use
                      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 6:37 PM

                      In really cold conditions, my standbys are wool socks and down booties,
                      with pant legs down over the socks and tucked into the booties, at
                      least until I move around a little. Lots of insulation. No cold feet.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: tim garner <slowhike@...>
                      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 6:24 pm
                      Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use



                          I don't know if this has been mentioned & I missed
                      it,
                      but when you think about winter foot wear, you need to be sure that the
                      layers on your feet are not tight enough to restrict blood flow.  Warm
                      blood coming into your feet is what's bringing the warmth.

                          If your winter foot layers aren't carefully sized so that they
                      don't squeeze those blood vessels, where's the warmth going to com from

                      that's supposed to heat up your foot insulation???<G>.

                       Even a couple layers of tight socks can begin to do that.

                      don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!



                      --- On Sat, 1/10/09, m2b1997 <m2b1997@...> wrote:

                      From: m2b1997 <m2b1997@...>

                      Subject: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use

                      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com

                      Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 8:02 AM



                      Yeah, this gets real crazy.



                      Fall 2007 I found myself out freediving here in NH and found myself

                      with the real simple probl
                      em of not having the proper equipment for

                      doing much fall time diving, err not having a good enough wetsuit to

                      keep me warm in colder water. I could do 60 degree water temps fr 20-

                      25 minutes a time but not much lower. I kept looking/thinking around

                      for different ideas that might allow me to extend the season. I knew

                      I had to find a way to keep the water off me in the first place(VB).

                      I knew something along this line would work quite well. Everything I

                      tried failed miserably as I couldn't get the nice tight fit that I

                      need. One of the things I tried was a sauna suit, aka true to life

                      sweat suit. It's light weight and it has(I can't think the right

                      term now) spandex style closures on the neck, wrists and ankles. I

                      bought it at Wal-Mart for probably under $10. Like I said it didn't

                      work. I had also tried cutting up 4-6mil plastic and taping it

                      together, didn't work.



                      Okay, now to the present. Seeing the forecast for mostly clear skies

                      and near zero overnight I decided to camping out in the hammock once

                      again. I knew this would be an even more interesting test since I

                      had failed so miserably to sleep on the ground at 10 degrees. If I

                      could manage to sleep in a hammock at 0 that would prove Ed and the

                      boys to big liars about having a harder time staying warm sleeping in

                      a hammock than on the
                      ground. You see it coming Ed, don't ya.



                      Even though the fleece mouth guard worked fine the previous night I

                      wanted to find and try out the ski face mask that I normally used to

                      carry with me whenever I did any winter dayhiking(haven't did any of

                      that since like '03 or '04). In searching for it I stumbled into the

                      sauna suit. I did see and think even picked it up to move it the day

                      before when looking for the face mask. I got to thinking about VB

                      again. My thought was simple, this is a full body VB and not

                      something that will just go under you. I didn't really know what to

                      expect. I finally hopped back on and reread Dave's VB posting

                      again. This time it started to make much more sense than it did when

                      I browsed through it a couple of days ago. It made me want to try

                      the sauna suit even more and totally forget the idea of trying out

                      the Gore-Tex jacket/pants. I knew the sauna suit would possibly work

                      better and for a true hiking/camping situation it would take less

                      space and weigh less as well.



                      I finally found the face mask and put it aside as well. I also

                      pulled out the long johns as I was forming my strategy out quite

                      nicely.



                      Head Base layer: neoprene hood, from kayaking/freediving.

                      Head VB: swimming cap.

                      Head Insulation: regular winter hat.



                      Body Base Layer: l
                      ong johns.

                      Body VB: sauna suit.

                      Body Insulation: regular sweat suit.



                      Feet Base Layer: regular pair of mid calf socks(heavweight thermal

                      work socks I bought a couple of months ago at a discount store

                      similiar to the combined mix of Big Lots/Kmart).

                      Feet VB: cut up some of the 4-6 mil plastic from the warm diving gear

                      attempt and wrap it around the feet.

                      Feet Insulation: another pair of the same work socks.



                      Hands: bare, no nothing.



                      The works socks is what I have been using thus far while out

                      camping. I wear them around the house during the winter months to

                      keep my feet warm since I don't have insulated floors.



                      About 10:15PM I start suiting up. The temperature outside is already

                      10 degrees with full moonshine beating down on western NH. As I put

                      on the footwear including putting on the boots I noticed that my feet

                      are getting cold. I don't think much about since the boots have a

                      little moisture in them from being used for shoveling snow and

                      everything else.



                      10:45PM. Got the hammock setup and finally in the sleeping bag.

                      Things not bad at all. The moon is shining very brightly.



                      11:45PM. Feet are cold, the rest of the body is nice and warm. I

                      can't figure out what the difference is. Why is it I'm doing the

                      same thing to the feet that I'm doing to the rest
                      of the body but

                      only the feet are getting cold. I finally give up and reach down and

                      take off the outer layer on the left foot. I pull the plastic off

                      and put the outer sock back on. Within two to three minutes the warm

                      is already returning to foot quite rapidly. I continue to layer

                      there for a few more minutes and finally said the heck with it and

                      pull the plastic out of the right foot as well. I still stumped on

                      this. Why didn't the feet want to stay warm.



                      2:00AM. After a couple of hours or restful sleep I wake up and go to

                      the bathroom. I'm realizng one thing, I HATE this face mask, give me

                      back the fleece from the night before. As I got into he hammock very

                      first thing about 10:45 I thought about fleece but I didn't go back

                      inside to get it. So far everything is going fine. Feet are back up

                      to nice temp and everything else is staying warm as well. I would

                      say it was probably in the single digits at this point(I may have

                      been optimistic though). I was noticing a little bit of a feel of

                      clamminess naturally from the insensible perspiration, but it wasn't

                      bad and it wasn't causing me to be cold.



                      5:45AM. A couple more hours of sleep. Yes, I REALLY HATE this face

                      mask, where's the darn fleece. I wake up and have to go to the

                      bathroom once again. My mind is pretty w
                      ell made up that if I get up

                      I'm going inside. Heck it's been seven hours and the only three

                      things I'm noticing are the feet starting to get a bit cold again,

                      the hands are starting to notice a small amount cold and the

                      clamminess. It is almost wanting to give a bit of claustraphobic

                      (sp?) feel to things.



                      I get up and first thing after putting on the boots is to walk back

                      to thermometer and take a leak at the same time. I was figuring 5

                      degrees. I was wrong. My original guess yesterday was pretty much

                      right on the money. Turns out I had my first ever sub-zero night

                      out. It was between -1 and -2 degrees. I had to check two or three

                      times to make sure I was reading it correctly. I was surprised I was

                      able to stay as warm as I did when the temperature was that cold.



                      I admit I was noticing a bit of a chill starting to form before I got

                      out of the bag but I could have fallen back without any problem. I

                      knew by getting up and going to the bathroom my mind would fight me

                      to get back into bed since the house was less than a two minute walk

                      away.



                      Seeing what I have seen thus far has brought up a couple of questions:

                      1. Why did the feet fail when I was doing the same exact thing to the

                      feet that I did to the rest of the body??? This really has me

                      stumped.





                      2. I realize the next crazy idea I'm about to mention may have

                      problems in terms of not being strong enough to survive plus it isn't

                      easy to pack into a backpack, unlike nylon, but...Seeing the VB all

                      around the body worked quite well, other than the feet why not use

                      the same setup I used overnight but instead of a cotton or nylon

                      hammock instead use 4-6 mil plastic for a winter hammock? It would

                      give you a double VB and the outer VB would be water/snow proof as

                      well. During the summer months it would be totally stupid but during

                      the winter months I see it being a viable concept as long as it's

                      strong enough.



                      Now should I be bold and brave late this coming week and try to head

                      out and do some more outside winter camping??? Heck there only

                      saying highs of 10 degrees and overnight lows of -10 to -15 by late

                      this coming week. LOL!!!



                      MEANT 2B



                      ------------------------------------



                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • m2b1997
                      I wouldn t say the sock were tight fitting. I did start to think of a new twist before I left this morning and ended up stopping by Waldo World and bought a
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I wouldn't say the sock were tight fitting. I did start to think of
                        a new twist before I left this morning and ended up stopping by Waldo
                        World and bought a pair of nylon socks thinking they would be thinner
                        plus I THINK??? better wicking(?) than the socks I had on last
                        night/right now. I'm questioning if my choice of the sock underneath
                        the VB was the wrong kind of material for the job. It just seems
                        strange why I didn't even have to get outside before I started
                        noticing the feet chill down. I couldn't believe how fast the feet
                        warmed right back up once I removed the VB. Strange question just
                        hit me, to what extent will a VB also act as an inverse insulator,
                        aka block the insulative effect from occuring.

                        Also, while on this topic of winter hiking something that has been
                        bothering me for a while now. When I thruhiked in 1997 I started
                        early March and finished late September, aka pretty much nothing less
                        than 12 hours of daylight/darkness. Yeah, typically I found myself
                        going to bed fairly early and not thinking anything about, especially
                        after 3-4 days on the trail. Granted the first few days on the trail
                        were another story, some of them up until 10-11PM.

                        When it comes to winter hiking, just how do you guys manage to sleep
                        for 15 hours? I know it's a crazy question. It's the one thing that
                        bugs me though. I realize if you have a nice night like last night
                        where the moon is out you can easily keep right on hiking an enjoy a
                        nice peaceful evening(that would have been sweet last night). In the
                        case where the weather may not be quite so cooperative what do you do
                        when your out on a weekend hike to keep yourself from falling asleep
                        at 5:30 and then waking up and tossing the rest of the night at 2AM?
                        Especially in the circumstance you were to be out hiking solo.
                        Normally it takes a couple of days to really wear you down to the
                        point where you could sleep all night long even during the winter
                        months. Just wondering the thoughts of trying a true winter two day
                        hike is starting to build. As my temperature range drops I know I
                        can handle warmer temps without any problems and it makes me want to
                        go for it. I just can't figure out how to kill a crap load of time.
                        I don't think I could hike hard enough to get myself to sleep 13-15
                        hours.

                        MEANT 2B
                      • tim garner
                           I recently bought an IPOD for those long winter nights . I haven t spent a lot of time w/ it yet, but mostly see myself using it when I m solo.   
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                             I recently bought an IPOD for those long winter nights<G>. I haven't spent a lot of time w/ it yet, but mostly see myself using it when I'm solo.
                             When I hike w/ a friend, we try to use the same tree for the foot of both hammocks & two trees that are about 3 to 6 foot apart for the head end of the two hammocks.
                            Then we pitch one tarp overlapping the other at the top, forming a big "A-frame".  That way we are close enough to talk & pass food, etc back & forth.

                          don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!

                          --- On Sat, 1/10/09, m2b1997 <m2b1997@...> wrote:
                          From: m2b1997 <m2b1997@...>
                          Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use
                          To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 8:29 PM

                          I wouldn't say the sock were tight fitting. I did start to think of
                          a new twist before I left this morning and ended up stopping by Waldo
                          World and bought a pair of nylon socks thinking they would be thinner
                          plus I THINK??? better wicking(?) than the socks I had on last
                          night/right now. I'm questioning if my choice of the sock underneath
                          the VB was the wrong kind of material for the job. It just seems
                          strange why I didn't even have to get outside before I started
                          noticing the feet chill down. I couldn't believe how fast the feet
                          warmed right back up once I removed the VB. Strange question just
                          hit me, to what extent will a VB also act as an inverse insulator,
                          aka block the insulative effect from occuring.

                          Also, while on this topic of winter hiking something that has been
                          bothering me for a while now. When I thruhiked in 1997 I started
                          early March and finished late September, aka pretty much nothing less
                          than 12 hours of daylight/darkness. Yeah, typically I found myself
                          going to bed fairly early and not thinking anything about, especially
                          after 3-4 days on the trail. Granted the first few days on the trail
                          were another story, some of them up until 10-11PM.

                          When it comes to winter hiking, just how do you guys manage to sleep
                          for 15 hours? I know it's a crazy question. It's the one thing that
                          bugs me though. I realize if you have a nice night like last night
                          where the moon is out you can easily keep right on hiking an enjoy a
                          nice peaceful evening(that would have been sweet last night). In the
                          case where the weather may not be quite so cooperative what do you do
                          when your out on a weekend hike to keep yourself from falling asleep
                          at 5:30 and then waking up and tossing the rest of the night at 2AM?
                          Especially in the circumstance you were to be out hiking solo.
                          Normally it takes a couple of days to really wear you down to the
                          point where you could sleep all night long even during the winter
                          months. Just wondering the thoughts of trying a true winter two day
                          hike is starting to build. As my temperature range drops I know I
                          can handle warmer temps without any problems and it makes me want to
                          go for it. I just can't figure out how to kill a crap load of time.
                          I don't think I could hike hard enough to get myself to sleep 13-15
                          hours.

                          MEANT 2B


                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links








                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • pure mahem
                          The IPOD is a great idea. Especially the bigger ones you can watch full length movies on them. Books are also and alternative. My usual option for killing time
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 10, 2009
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                            The IPOD is a great idea. Especially the bigger ones you can watch full length movies on them. Books are also and alternative. My usual option for killing time is carving a piece of wood and enjoying a nice campfire. A campfire can be almost hypnotic it's very relaxing just to sit and enjoy the evening. Lots of times even when I hike with my Dad or the Misses we'll sit quietly around the campfire late into the evening.




                            ________________________________
                            From: tim garner <slowhike@...>
                            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 10:52:00 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use


                               I recently bought an IPOD for those long winter nights<G>. I haven't spent a lot of time w/ it yet, but mostly see myself using it when I'm solo.
                               When I hike w/ a friend, we try to use the same tree for the foot of both hammocks & two trees that are about 3 to 6 foot apart for the head end of the two hammocks.
                              Then we pitch one tarp overlapping the other at the top, forming a big "A-frame".  That way we are close enough to talk & pass food, etc back & forth.

                            don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!

                            --- On Sat, 1/10/09, m2b1997 <m2b1997@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            From: m2b1997 <m2b1997@yahoo. com>
                            Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] The crazy junk you can use
                            To: hammockcamping@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 8:29 PM

                            I wouldn't say the sock were tight fitting. I did start to think of
                            a new twist before I left this morning and ended up stopping by Waldo
                            World and bought a pair of nylon socks thinking they would be thinner
                            plus I THINK??? better wicking(?) than the socks I had on last
                            night/right now. I'm questioning if my choice of the sock underneath
                            the VB was the wrong kind of material for the job. It just seems
                            strange why I didn't even have to get outside before I started
                            noticing the feet chill down. I couldn't believe how fast the feet
                            warmed right back up once I removed the VB. Strange question just
                            hit me, to what extent will a VB also act as an inverse insulator,
                            aka block the insulative effect from occuring.

                            Also, while on this topic of winter hiking something that has been
                            bothering me for a while now. When I thruhiked in 1997 I started
                            early March and finished late September, aka pretty much nothing less
                            than 12 hours of daylight/darkness. Yeah, typically I found myself
                            going to bed fairly early and not thinking anything about, especially
                            after 3-4 days on the trail. Granted the first few days on the trail
                            were another story, some of them up until 10-11PM.

                            When it comes to winter hiking, just how do you guys manage to sleep
                            for 15 hours? I know it's a crazy question. It's the one thing that
                            bugs me though. I realize if you have a nice night like last night
                            where the moon is out you can easily keep right on hiking an enjoy a
                            nice peaceful evening(that would have been sweet last night). In the
                            case where the weather may not be quite so cooperative what do you do
                            when your out on a weekend hike to keep yourself from falling asleep
                            at 5:30 and then waking up and tossing the rest of the night at 2AM?
                            Especially in the circumstance you were to be out hiking solo.
                            Normally it takes a couple of days to really wear you down to the
                            point where you could sleep all night long even during the winter
                            months. Just wondering the thoughts of trying a true winter two day
                            hike is starting to build. As my temperature range drops I know I
                            can handle warmer temps without any problems and it makes me want to
                            go for it. I just can't figure out how to kill a crap load of time.
                            I don't think I could hike hard enough to get myself to sleep 13-15
                            hours.

                            MEANT 2B

                            ------------ --------- --------- ------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Dave Womble
                            ... That is perplexing to me. I often just use vapor barriers on my feet and they have always helped with me. My guess would be that maybe you flexed your
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 11, 2009
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                              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "m2b1997" <m2b1997@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > 1. Why did the feet fail when I was doing the same exact thing to the
                              > feet that I did to the rest of the body??? This really has me
                              > stumped.
                              >

                              That is perplexing to me. I often just use vapor barriers on my feet
                              and they have always helped with me. My guess would be that maybe you
                              flexed your feet enough when you removed them to improve circulation?
                              But I can't figure why you were warmer when you removed them if
                              everything was working as it should.

                              Dave
                            • Dave Womble
                              ... That is a big problem for me too. I generally wake up and lay around waiting for daylight for several hours. When it is seriously cold, it is too cold
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 11, 2009
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                                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "m2b1997" <m2b1997@...> wrote:

                                > When it comes to winter hiking, just how do you guys manage to sleep
                                > for 15 hours? I know it's a crazy question. It's the one thing that
                                > bugs me though.

                                That is a big problem for me too. I generally wake up and lay around
                                'waiting for daylight' for several hours. When it is seriously cold,
                                it is too cold for me to mess around trying to do much of anything.

                                There are a lot of things about winter backpacking like that, you have
                                to really enjoy it or really want to do it. Water freezes, you freeze
                                if you aren't careful, your boots/shoes freeze, not much daylight for
                                hiking, etc. I think you have to mentally approach the long nights as
                                just another challenge. The colder it gets, the more you have to pay
                                attention to what you do because of the consequences of mistakes.
                              • Cara Lin Bridgman
                                Could it be that the socks inside the vapor barrier were too thick and the ones outside the vapor barrier were too thin? In other words, how damp were the
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 11, 2009
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                                  Could it be that the socks inside the vapor barrier were too thick and
                                  the ones outside the vapor barrier were too thin? In other words, how
                                  damp were the socks inside the vapor barrier when you removed them? All
                                  your other inside layers were quite thin and the outside ones varied in
                                  thickness. All sock layers were reasonably loose, right?

                                  CL

                                  Dave Womble wrote:
                                  > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "m2b1997" <m2b1997@...> wrote:
                                  >> 1. Why did the feet fail when I was doing the same exact thing to the
                                  >> feet that I did to the rest of the body??? This really has me
                                  >> stumped.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > That is perplexing to me. I often just use vapor barriers on my feet
                                  > and they have always helped with me. My guess would be that maybe you
                                  > flexed your feet enough when you removed them to improve circulation?
                                  > But I can't figure why you were warmer when you removed them if
                                  > everything was working as it should.
                                  >
                                  > Dave
                                • m2b1997
                                  Dave, I agree on the perplexing part. It doesn t seem like their should have been any difference. I still can t figure out any kind of logical, or illogical
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 11, 2009
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                                    Dave,

                                    I agree on the perplexing part. It doesn't seem like their should
                                    have been any difference. I still can't figure out any kind of
                                    logical, or illogical reason for why things went the way they did.

                                    Cara,

                                    Both layers of socks were the same make. They were a thermal work
                                    sock. Hence why I thought about and went out and bought a pair of
                                    nylon socks yesterday to give them a try as the under VB layer and
                                    see if that would change things around. I'm not sure how wicking
                                    nylon is versus maybe being more VB sided. Anyone care to take a
                                    stab at it, I am curious. I guess I'm too use to hanging around hot
                                    air balloons and always feeling ripstop nylon which is designed
                                    essentially as a VB.

                                    The socks were dry as far as I know when I removed the VB. I didn't
                                    really think to feel but since they had only been on a little over
                                    and hour and my feet had been in a cold environment the whole time
                                    that should have pretty much kept any kind of moisture to a bare
                                    minimum/unnoticible.

                                    I remember someone talking about the hand situation/comparison.
                                    Normally it seems like I sleep in one of three or four ways.
                                    Occasionally I sleep with my hands laying right next to the body,
                                    especially more so when I'm sleeping indoor/warm temps. If I'm
                                    laying on my side I normally raise both hands up and use them as
                                    a 'pillow' under the ear that facing down. Otherwise I can find
                                    myself with my arms crossed, quite often I have noticed this outside
                                    this past week. I'll have the arms crossed with the hands tucked
                                    inside, hence the ability of the hands to stay warm that way. The
                                    other method I have caught myself doing is to cross the hands and put
                                    them in the center of my chest. This wouldn't help to keep them
                                    warm. It seems like outside I have noticed a split between the hands
                                    crossed and placed on the chest and having the arms crossed and the
                                    hands laying by the opposite ribcage.

                                    How do you guy manage to keep batteries from dying on you almost
                                    instantly when winter hiking? LOL!!! I have had such bad luck
                                    recently, granted with a cell phone, keeping the batteries charged
                                    it's unbelievable. I was working shoveling snow all day today and
                                    the boss called. I had only had the phone turned on for about two
                                    hours since I last recharged it. By the time the two minute
                                    conversation was over the darn thing was already beeping at me
                                    telling me the battery was low. I kept the phone on the rest of the
                                    day, another 4 hours or so. When I got home the battery was showing
                                    fully charged. Then again it had been in my pocket the whole time
                                    other than when I pulleed it out to talk to the boss.

                                    I could see the mp3 player but reading would be difficult as the
                                    tendency to want to stay as much in the sleeping bag as possible to
                                    stay warm would make reading rather unpleasant I would think. I'm
                                    going to have to try that tonight here in the house and see what I
                                    think. That could be an option since I do have a wind up light that
                                    requires no batteries. Anymore I think I would use the wind up light
                                    versus using a Petzel headlamp. It may weigh slightly more but I
                                    don't have to worry about batteries running dead when I need them the
                                    most.

                                    MEANT 2B
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