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alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?

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  • Blake Robert
    As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---I have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear. The first step was in
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 2, 2009
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      As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---I have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear. The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering leaving behind my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a fuel tablet buring Esbit stove or making an alcohol stove.
       
      The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title Cool little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see what I am planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have to figure where one can still find wire coat hangers and get a quarter handful of fiberglass insulation.

      But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that alcohol stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the aluminum can not take the heat too many times---long trail hikers interviewed say they are lucky if such a stove lasts 500 miles.

      Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a stove lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a hike.

      Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?

      How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use is over or does it go straight from useful to gone?

      R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ
    • Ralph Oborn
      ... You might want to also consider the supercat stove. Simple to build, simple to use, and very light. And it is a little tougher than a popcan
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 2, 2009
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        On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Blake Robert <xflagstaff9@...> wrote:

        >
        > As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---I have
        > begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear. The first
        > step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering leaving behind
        > my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a fuel tablet buring Esbit
        > stove or making an alcohol stove.
        >
        > The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title Cool
        > little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see what I am
        > planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have to figure where
        > one can still find wire coat hangers and get a quarter handful of fiberglass
        > insulation.
        >
        > But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that alcohol
        > stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the aluminum can not take
        > the heat too many times---long trail hikers interviewed say they are lucky
        > if such a stove lasts 500 miles.
        >
        > Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a stove
        > lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a hike.
        >
        > Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?
        >
        > How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use is over
        > or does it go straight from useful to gone?
        >
        > R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ



        You might want to also consider the supercat stove.

        Simple to build, simple to use, and very light.

        And it is a little tougher than a popcan


        http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html

        Ralph


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rick
        The beauty of a pop can stove is that it does not matter if it lasts. If it burns through in a month, it can be replaced by a new one that the hiker builds in
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 2, 2009
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          The beauty of a pop can stove is that it does not matter if it lasts.
          If it burns through in a month, it can be replaced by a new one that the
          hiker builds in the field.

          By the way, this topic is maybe better at the Backpacking Stoves group.

          Rick

          Ralph Oborn wrote:
          > On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Blake Robert <xflagstaff9@...> wrote:
          >
          >> As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---I have
          >> begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear. The first
          >> step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering leaving behind
          >> my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a fuel tablet buring Esbit
          >> stove or making an alcohol stove.
          >>
          >> The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title Cool
          >> little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see what I am
          >> planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have to figure where
          >> one can still find wire coat hangers and get a quarter handful of fiberglass
          >> insulation.
          >>
          >> But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that alcohol
          >> stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the aluminum can not take
          >> the heat too many times---long trail hikers interviewed say they are lucky
          >> if such a stove lasts 500 miles.
          >>
          >> Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a stove
          >> lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a hike.
          >>
          >> Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?
          >>
          >> How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use is over
          >> or does it go straight from useful to gone?
          >>
          >> R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ
          >
          >
          >
          > You might want to also consider the supercat stove.
          >
          > Simple to build, simple to use, and very light.
          >
          > And it is a little tougher than a popcan
          >
          >
          > http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html
          >
          > Ralph
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Tom Frazier
          Vargo makes two different models of titanium pop can stove. I ve got this one:
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 2, 2009
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            Vargo makes two different models of titanium "pop can" stove. I've got this one: http://www.vargooutdoors.com/store/VARGO-OUTDOORS-VARGO-TITANIUM-SERIES/c126_127/p1072/Titanium-Decagon-Backpacking-Stove/product_info.html?osCsid=c6ce3caa4d137f33d175124987917c3f

            I think my homemade popcan stove works better, but this titanium stove isn't that bad. It does the job, so long as you provide a windscreen (tinfoil?). I cut ends off a tin can, drilled some holes on either side (one for air intake the other for flame/heat outtake) and put it on top of my titanium stove on top of which goes my titan kettle. The base of this stove is four inches so it fits perfect into the msr titan kettle.




            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Blake Robert
            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 9:20 AM
            Subject: [Hammock Camping] alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?



            As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---I have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear. The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering leaving behind my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a fuel tablet buring Esbit stove or making an alcohol stove.

            The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title Cool little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see what I am planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have to figure where one can still find wire coat hangers and get a quarter handful of fiberglass insulation.

            But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that alcohol stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the aluminum can not take the heat too many times---long trail hikers interviewed say they are lucky if such a stove lasts 500 miles.

            Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a stove lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a hike.

            Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?

            How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use is over or does it go straight from useful to gone?

            R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • pure mahem
            For a more rugged stove you may want to check out a trangia the mini has a lid that allows you to simmer as well. Also on bplite.com ask Zelph about the Cobalt
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 3, 2009
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              For a more rugged stove you may want to check out a trangia the mini has a lid that allows you to simmer as well. Also on bplite.com ask Zelph about the Cobalt Stove it's a new design that uses the heavy aluminum beer bottles. Also on MiniBullDesign.com you have the BIOS. A lot comes down to what type of cooking you do If it's just boiling water I'ld go with the Cobalt. If you plan on using your stove for more then I would go with a mini trangia. Either stove can be had for around $20. If your looking to just build your own then keep going cause there are alot of stove designs out there that you can make and experiment with, be careful you may get addicted to it and then we'll have to call you a Stovie. The advantage about pop can stoves is that you can just build another one anytime for nothing. In my experience they don't wear out they get stepped on or crushed by accident or confiscated at the airport.




              ________________________________
              From: Tom Frazier <wildewudu@...>
              To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:48:17 AM
              Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?


              Vargo makes two different models of titanium "pop can" stove. I've got this one: http://www.vargoout doors.com/ store/VARGO- OUTDOORS- VARGO-TITANIUM- SERIES/c126_ 127/p1072/ Titanium- Decagon-Backpack ing-Stove/ product_info. html?osCsid= c6ce3caa4d137f33 d175124987917c3f

              I think my homemade popcan stove works better, but this titanium stove isn't that bad. It does the job, so long as you provide a windscreen (tinfoil?). I cut ends off a tin can, drilled some holes on either side (one for air intake the other for flame/heat outtake) and put it on top of my titanium stove on top of which goes my titan kettle. The base of this stove is four inches so it fits perfect into the msr titan kettle.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Blake Robert
              To: hammockcamping@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 9:20 AM
              Subject: [Hammock Camping] alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?

              As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking- --I have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear. The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering leaving behind my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a fuel tablet buring Esbit stove or making an alcohol stove.

              The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title Cool little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see what I am planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have to figure where one can still find wire coat hangers and get a quarter handful of fiberglass insulation.

              But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that alcohol stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the aluminum can not take the heat too many times---long trail hikers interviewed say they are lucky if such a stove lasts 500 miles.

              Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a stove lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a hike.

              Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?

              How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use is over or does it go straight from useful to gone?

              R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • moabrocks
              I have enjoyed making and using a pop can stoves but be careful it can become a time consuming hobby. The penny stove works really well and is pretty easy to
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 3, 2009
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                I have enjoyed making and using a pop can stoves but be careful it can
                become a time consuming hobby. The penny stove works really well and
                is pretty easy to make and because it uses a Heineken can it is a
                little stronger than most. The only one I have purchaed was the ROF
                stove from Zelph and I have really liked it.

                There are a lot of sites out there that can help you get started.
                http://zenstoves.net/
                http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/penny.html#
                http://wings.interfree.it/html/main.html
                http://users.sisqtel.net/losthiker/pikastove/
                http://www.bplite.com/viewforum.php?f=1
                http://www.whiteblaze.net

                Have fun!

                - Bryant
              • Jeff
                This thread motivated me to make my first cat stove. I made one from a steel 3oz can I had in the cabinet and a Red Bull can. Boiled 16 oz water in just over
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 3, 2009
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                  This thread motivated me to make my first cat stove. I made one from a
                  steel 3oz can I had in the cabinet and a Red Bull can. Boiled 16 oz
                  water in just over 4 min...probably the fastest I've ever had with an
                  alcohol stove. I like that I don't need a pot stand with it...this may
                  replace my JetBoil on some hikes. Maybe... :D

                  Jeff
                • Thomas Vickers
                  I use a homemade alcohol stove based on the photon stove. Instead of 12 ounce cans, I use the smallest redbull can. Great thing about a homemade stove is that
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 4, 2009
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                    I use a homemade alcohol stove based on the photon stove.
                    Instead of 12 ounce cans, I use the smallest redbull can.
                    Great thing about a homemade stove is that when you want, you make a new
                    one.
                    I have never had one fail on me and when I feel frisky, I simply make a new
                    one.

                    TV
                  • EHamilton
                    OK, Jeff, exactly how did you make this stove? That s a great boil time. I have a JetBoil that s a gift from a friend but due to its weight and questionable
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jan 4, 2009
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                      OK, Jeff, exactly how did you make this stove? That's a great boil time. I have a JetBoil that's a gift from a friend but due to its weight and questionable availability of its fuel on the AT I'm sticking with a homemade alcohol stove. I've been planning to make a penny stove but my husband balks at buying Heineken when MGD is so much cheaper :-) I have a Pepsi-can stove that works but it takes twice as long to boil as the creation you describe. Can you steer me?
                       
                      MacGyver



                      ________________________________
                      From: Jeff <jwj32542@...>
                      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 11:53:32 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?

                      This thread motivated me to make my first cat stove.  I made one from a
                      steel 3oz can I had in the cabinet and a Red Bull can.  Boiled 16 oz
                      water in just over 4 min...probably the fastest I've ever had with an
                      alcohol stove.  I like that I don't need a pot stand with it...this may
                      replace my JetBoil on some hikes.  Maybe... :D

                      Jeff



                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ralph Oborn
                      This thread motivated me to make my first cat stove. I made one from a steel 3oz can I had in the cabinet and a Red Bull can. Boiled 16 oz water in just over
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jan 4, 2009
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                        This thread motivated me to make my first cat stove. I made one from a
                        steel 3oz can I had in the cabinet and a Red Bull can. Boiled 16 oz
                        water in just over 4 min...probably the fastest I've ever had with an
                        alcohol stove. I like that I don't need a pot stand with it...this may
                        replace my JetBoil on some hikes. Maybe... :D

                        Jeff




                        On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 4:55 PM, EHamilton <imagainst_the_wind@...>wrote:

                        > OK, Jeff, exactly how did you make this stove? That's a great boil time. I
                        > have a JetBoil that's a gift from a friend but due to its weight and
                        > questionable availability of its fuel on the AT I'm sticking with a homemade
                        > alcohol stove. I've been planning to make a penny stove but my husband balks
                        > at buying Heineken when MGD is so much cheaper :-) I have a Pepsi-can stove
                        > that works but it takes twice as long to boil as the creation you describe.
                        > Can you steer me?
                        >
                        > MacGyver



                        http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html

                        No JB welding, no tape, no cutting, no sharp edges, no fiberglass, just a
                        cat food can and some holes.

                        I'm careful so I don't use his stand, just the cat food can.
                        Yellow HEET is available everywhere and works great.

                        A hole punch makes it easy, but if you are gonna do a lot of them, spend $12
                        for a watkins punch from Harbor Freight. I took their internet ad into
                        their store and they matched it. :]



                        Ralph


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jeff
                        ... From the link Ralph posted. http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html That 4 min was with tap water, so barely under room temp, and was in my
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 4, 2009
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                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, EHamilton
                          <imagainst_the_wind@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > OK, Jeff, exactly how did you make this stove?

                          From the link Ralph posted.
                          http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html

                          That 4 min was with tap water, so barely under room temp, and was in my
                          garage with no wind. Still...just over 4 min is a good time.

                          I usually carry the JetBoil when I hike, though. I like that I can
                          cook from the hammock easily, and I can even pick it up while it's
                          cooking. I could still cook in the hammock with the supercat, I
                          think...wasn't comfortable doing that with my last alky setup.
                          Definitely couldn't pick up the whole setup while it's lit,though.

                          Jeff
                        • EHamilton
                          So, what did you do with the Red Bull can? The ordinary Super Cat is made with just the cat-food can.   MacGyver ________________________________ From: Jeff
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 4, 2009
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                            So, what did you do with the Red Bull can? The ordinary Super Cat is made with just the cat-food can.
                             
                            MacGyver




                            ________________________________
                            From: Jeff jwj32542@...

                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, EHamilton
                            <imagainst_the_wind@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > OK, Jeff, exactly how did you make this stove?

                            From the link Ralph posted.
                            http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html

                            That 4 min was with tap water, so barely under room temp, and was in my
                            garage with no wind.  Still...just over 4 min is a good time.

                            I usually carry the JetBoil when I hike, though.  I like that I can
                            cook from the hammock easily, and I can even pick it up while it's
                            cooking.  I could still cook in the hammock with the supercat, I
                            think...wasn't comfortable doing that with my last alky setup. 
                            Definitely couldn't pick up the whole setup while it's lit,though.

                            Jeff

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ralph Oborn
                            ... The energy drink can is your pot to heat water with. And it seats nicely in the to of the cat stove. :] Ralph [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 4, 2009
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                              On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:04 PM, EHamilton <imagainst_the_wind@...>wrote:

                              > So, what did you do with the Red Bull can? The ordinary Super Cat is made
                              > with just the cat-food can.
                              >
                              > MacGyver
                              >

                              The energy drink can is your pot to heat water with.
                              And it seats nicely in the to of the cat stove. :]


                              Ralph


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • aethericpower
                              ... have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear. The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering leaving behind
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 4, 2009
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                                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Blake Robert <xflagstaff9@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---I
                                have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear.
                                The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering
                                leaving behind my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a
                                fuel tablet buring Esbit stove or making an alcohol stove.
                                >  
                                > The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title
                                Cool little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see
                                what I am planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have
                                to figure where one can still find wire coat hangers and get a
                                quarter handful of fiberglass insulation.
                                >
                                > But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that
                                alcohol stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the
                                aluminum can not take the heat too many times---long trail hikers
                                interviewed say they are lucky if such a stove lasts 500 miles.
                                >
                                > Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a
                                stove lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a
                                hike.
                                >
                                > Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?
                                >
                                > How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use
                                is over or does it go straight from useful to gone?
                                >
                                > R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ
                                >

                                I made a few. I found wire hanger very difficult to bend correctly. I
                                wound up using the broken off bristles of street cleaners, found free
                                on street intersections.

                                I personally had two problems with such stoves. Likely from my
                                inexeprience using them.

                                1. They are hard to light. I used cotton balls or lint, and steel and
                                flint. I have not found a wind screen tecnique I like yet with
                                materials I have on hand.

                                2. I often get a towering inferno effect like three or five minutes
                                into it. Especially if I use a different kind of fuel like corn oil
                                (also splatters) or Tiki torch fuel (that one gets REALLY hot). I
                                have boiled water with three cat food can based ones under a soup can.

                                I don't have much expertise, but I did want to share my noice
                                experience with you.
                              • pure mahem
                                With alcohol stoves you want to stick to methenol not other fuels. Only use yellow heet and it should eliminate the flame up problems. Using other fuels than
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jan 4, 2009
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                                  With alcohol stoves you want to stick to methenol not other fuels. Only use yellow heet and it should eliminate the flame up problems. Using other fuels than these can be very dangerous.

                                  To light your stove try taking a small twig about 6 -8 inches in length about the diameter of a match and dip  the tip of it in your fuel, light the twig tip and use that like a match to light your stove. be sure to extinguish the twig properly to avoid accidental fires.

                                  Hope this helps!



                                  ________________________________
                                  From: aethericpower <aethericpower@...>
                                  To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:12:11 PM
                                  Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?


                                  --- In hammockcamping@ yahoogroups. com, Blake Robert <xflagstaff9@ ...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking- --I
                                  have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear.
                                  The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering
                                  leaving behind my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a
                                  fuel tablet buring Esbit stove or making an alcohol stove.
                                  >  
                                  > The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title
                                  Cool little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see
                                  what I am planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have
                                  to figure where one can still find wire coat hangers and get a
                                  quarter handful of fiberglass insulation.
                                  >
                                  > But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that
                                  alcohol stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the
                                  aluminum can not take the heat too many times---long trail hikers
                                  interviewed say they are lucky if such a stove lasts 500 miles.
                                  >
                                  > Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a
                                  stove lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a
                                  hike.
                                  >
                                  > Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?
                                  >
                                  > How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use
                                  is over or does it go straight from useful to gone?
                                  >
                                  > R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ
                                  >

                                  I made a few. I found wire hanger very difficult to bend correctly. I
                                  wound up using the broken off bristles of street cleaners, found free
                                  on street intersections.

                                  I personally had two problems with such stoves. Likely from my
                                  inexeprience using them.

                                  1. They are hard to light. I used cotton balls or lint, and steel and
                                  flint. I have not found a wind screen tecnique I like yet with
                                  materials I have on hand.

                                  2. I often get a towering inferno effect like three or five minutes
                                  into it. Especially if I use a different kind of fuel like corn oil
                                  (also splatters) or Tiki torch fuel (that one gets REALLY hot). I
                                  have boiled water with three cat food can based ones under a soup can.

                                  I don't have much expertise, but I did want to share my noice
                                  experience with you.






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Jeff
                                  ... made with just the cat-food can. I made one with the 3 oz can and another with the Red Bull can. Just to see how it would work being that light. It
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
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                                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, EHamilton
                                    <imagainst_the_wind@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > So, what did you do with the Red Bull can? The ordinary Super Cat is
                                    made with just the cat-food can.

                                    I made one with the 3 oz can and another with the Red Bull can. Just
                                    to see how it would work being that light. It boiled but it's pretty
                                    flimsy.

                                    Jeff
                                  • Blake Robert
                                    Thanks for the tip.   It was gratifying that one person has benefitted by the post about alcohol stoves.   My thanks to the person who suggested the cat
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
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                                      Thanks for the tip.
                                       
                                      It was gratifying that one person has benefitted by the post about alcohol stoves.
                                       
                                      My thanks to the person who suggested the cat stove. This would be a great tip for a younger person. You reach the age where you are over ten times the age of a five year old but have the dexterity of the five year old-and then you keep getting worse---soon you need a five year old to open your "child-proof" pill bottles. This is not an age where you want to have an open container type alcohol stove---such as a cat stove. If you accidentally tip or kick it over with its invisible blue flames while camping in the forest.......
                                       
                                      Arizona has lost several Rhode Islands worth of ponderosa forests via careless smokers, people leaving campfires going after they left, lost "hikers" starting signal fires, etc. I don't want to be one of those people.
                                       
                                      The stove constructed with the bottom 1" of two pepsi cans pressed together ("cool little miniature stove") can leak only through very small pinholes rather than splashing its entire  content out while on fire.

                                      Besides, I like the similarity to a Tibetan art oject I saw in the museum at San Francisco's Golden Gate Park.

                                      Where wood is so scarce that cooking is done over fires of dried yak dung much of the making of art or utensils is done with bone---including human bone.

                                      One container I saw was made with the top 2" sawn off human skulls. Held together with a hinge at one end and a clasp at the other---it showed what can be accomplished when you put two heads together!

                                       


                                      --- On Sun, 1/4/09, pure mahem <pure_mahem@...> wrote:

                                      From: pure mahem <pure_mahem@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?
                                      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 9:34 PM






                                      With alcohol stoves you want to stick to methenol not other fuels. Only use yellow heet and it should eliminate the flame up problems. Using other fuels than these can be very dangerous.

                                      To light your stove try taking a small twig about 6 -8 inches in length about the diameter of a match and dip  the tip of it in your fuel, light the twig tip and use that like a match to light your stove. be sure to extinguish the twig properly to avoid accidental fires.

                                      Hope this helps!

                                      ____________ _________ _________ __
                                      From: aethericpower <aethericpower@ yahoo.com>
                                      To: hammockcamping@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:12:11 PM
                                      Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?

                                      --- In hammockcamping@ yahoogroups. com, Blake Robert <xflagstaff9@ ...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking- --I
                                      have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear.
                                      The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering
                                      leaving behind my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a
                                      fuel tablet buring Esbit stove or making an alcohol stove.
                                      >  
                                      > The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title
                                      Cool little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see
                                      what I am planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have
                                      to figure where one can still find wire coat hangers and get a
                                      quarter handful of fiberglass insulation.
                                      >
                                      > But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that
                                      alcohol stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the
                                      aluminum can not take the heat too many times---long trail hikers
                                      interviewed say they are lucky if such a stove lasts 500 miles.
                                      >
                                      > Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a
                                      stove lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a
                                      hike.
                                      >
                                      > Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?
                                      >
                                      > How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use
                                      is over or does it go straight from useful to gone?
                                      >
                                      > R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ
                                      >

                                      I made a few. I found wire hanger very difficult to bend correctly. I
                                      wound up using the broken off bristles of street cleaners, found free
                                      on street intersections.

                                      I personally had two problems with such stoves. Likely from my
                                      inexeprience using them.

                                      1. They are hard to light. I used cotton balls or lint, and steel and
                                      flint. I have not found a wind screen tecnique I like yet with
                                      materials I have on hand.

                                      2. I often get a towering inferno effect like three or five minutes
                                      into it. Especially if I use a different kind of fuel like corn oil
                                      (also splatters) or Tiki torch fuel (that one gets REALLY hot). I
                                      have boiled water with three cat food can based ones under a soup can.

                                      I don't have much expertise, but I did want to share my noice
                                      experience with you.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • EHamilton
                                      Oh! OK. I made a soda-can stove w/ a Red Bull can and it held up well, at least on 2 overnights :-) I didn t drill/punch holes in the can. I cut a top piece
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Oh! OK. I made a soda-can stove w/ a Red Bull can and it held up well, at least on 2 overnights :-) I didn't drill/punch holes in the can. I cut a top piece and a bottom piece and then crimped the top piece so it would fit into the bottom piece, ala Penny Stove (although I hadn't seen the PS method at that time), and the little spaces from the crimps served as burner holes for the flames to come up through. I liked it so well I made a larger one w/ a Pepsi can. So simple, primes almost instantly, is its own pot support once primed.

                                        But I still want to try a Penny Stove. Maybe I just want to try the Heineken and need an excuse to buy pricey beer....
                                         
                                        MacGyver




                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Jeff <jwj32542@...>
                                        > So, what did you do with the Red Bull can? The ordinary Super Cat is
                                        made with just the cat-food can.

                                        I made one with the 3 oz can and another with the Red Bull can.  Just
                                        to see how it would work being that light.  It boiled but it's pretty
                                        flimsy.

                                        Jeff

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Sandy Kramer
                                        The tiny Vargo Triad stove has leg supports and uses alcohol or Esbit tab when flipped over. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The tiny Vargo Triad stove has leg supports and uses alcohol or Esbit
                                          tab when flipped over.
                                          http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-
                                          bin/backpackinglight/vargo_triad_titanium_stove.html

                                          sandy in miami

                                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Oborn"
                                          <Ralph.oborn@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Blake Robert <xflagstaff9@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---
                                          I have
                                          > > begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear.
                                          The first
                                          > > step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering
                                          leaving behind
                                          > > my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a fuel tablet
                                          buring Esbit
                                          > > stove or making an alcohol stove.
                                          > >
                                          > > The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title
                                          Cool
                                          > > little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see
                                          what I am
                                          > > planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have to
                                          figure where
                                          > > one can still find wire coat hangers and get a quarter handful of
                                          fiberglass
                                          > > insulation.
                                          > >
                                          > > But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that
                                          alcohol
                                          > > stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the aluminum
                                          can not take
                                          > > the heat too many times---long trail hikers interviewed say they
                                          are lucky
                                          > > if such a stove lasts 500 miles.
                                          > >
                                          > > Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long
                                          a stove
                                          > > lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a hike.
                                          > >
                                          > > Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?
                                          > >
                                          > > How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its
                                          use is over
                                          > > or does it go straight from useful to gone?
                                          > >
                                          > > R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > You might want to also consider the supercat stove.
                                          >
                                          > Simple to build, simple to use, and very light.
                                          >
                                          > And it is a little tougher than a popcan
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html
                                          >
                                          > Ralph
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • dt51357
                                          Here s yet another stove. Easier to make than the cat or pop can. http://www.angelfire.com/funky/stove/index.htm Dean
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Here's yet another stove. Easier to make than the cat or pop can.
                                            http://www.angelfire.com/funky/stove/index.htm

                                            Dean
                                          • Ralph Oborn
                                            ... May I repectfully disagree. :] Look at the supercat again, one can, a dozen or so holes, all one piece, no cutting, no pot stand. But your mileage may
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, dt51357 <dt51357@...> wrote:

                                              > Here's yet another stove. Easier to make than the cat or pop can.
                                              > http://www.angelfire.com/funky/stove/index.htm
                                              >
                                              > Dean




                                              May I repectfully disagree. :]

                                              Look at the supercat again,

                                              one can, a dozen or so holes, all one piece, no cutting, no pot stand.

                                              But your mileage may vary. :]


                                              Ralph


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • EHamilton
                                              Oh, that s baaaaaaadddddd..... MacGyver ________________________________ From: Blake Robert xflagstaff9@yahoo.com One container I saw was made with the top 2
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Oh, that's baaaaaaadddddd.....
                                                MacGyver




                                                ________________________________
                                                From: Blake Robert xflagstaff9@...

                                                One container I saw was made with the top 2" sawn off human skulls. Held together with a hinge at one end and a clasp at the other---it showed what can be accomplished when you put two heads together!

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • EHamilton
                                                That s a pretty teeny pot.... doesn t all the heat go up the sides? MacGyver ________________________________ From: Ralph Oborn Ralph.oborn@gmail.com The
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  That's a pretty teeny pot.... doesn't all the heat go up the sides?
                                                  MacGyver




                                                  ________________________________
                                                  From: Ralph Oborn Ralph.oborn@...


                                                  The energy drink can is your pot to heat water with.
                                                  And it seats nicely in the to of the cat stove.  :]


                                                  Ralph


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                                  ------------------------------------

                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Ralph Oborn
                                                  ... A 20 oz energy drink can.... (Carefully remove the lid center with a can opener) Only need 2 cups ( 16 oz) of hot water to make most meals. (I make the
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jan 5, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:15 PM, EHamilton <imagainst_the_wind@...>wrote:

                                                    > That's a pretty teeny pot.... doesn't all the heat go up the sides?
                                                    > MacGyver
                                                    >

                                                    A 20 oz energy drink can.... (Carefully remove the lid center with a can
                                                    opener)

                                                    Only need 2 cups ( 16 oz) of hot water to make most meals.

                                                    (I make the meals in a zip lock bag) So I have no dishes to wash.

                                                    Surprisingly most of the heat does go the the water in the can, the supercat
                                                    website also comments on this.

                                                    And since the bottom of the energy can seats inside the super cat it is in
                                                    some ways more stable.


                                                    Ralph

                                                    Is it time to move this discussion over to the backpacking stoves discussion
                                                    list?


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • EHamilton
                                                    Oh, ok.... I thought you were talking about the skinny little Red Bull can. MacG ________________________________ From: Ralph Oborn To:
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jan 6, 2009
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Oh, ok.... I thought you were talking about the skinny little Red Bull can.
                                                      MacG




                                                      ________________________________
                                                      From: Ralph Oborn <Ralph.oborn@...>
                                                      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 10:40:59 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] alcohol stove for hammock backpacker?

                                                      On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:15 PM, EHamilton <imagainst_the_wind@...>wrote:

                                                      > That's a pretty teeny pot.... doesn't all the heat go up the sides?
                                                      > MacGyver
                                                      >

                                                      A 20 oz energy drink can.... (Carefully remove the lid center with a can
                                                      opener)

                                                      Only need 2 cups ( 16 oz) of hot water to make most meals.

                                                      (I make the meals in a zip lock bag) So I have no dishes to wash.

                                                      Surprisingly most of the heat does go the the water in the can, the supercat
                                                      website also comments on this.

                                                      And since the bottom of the energy can seats inside the super cat it is in
                                                      some ways more stable.


                                                      Ralph

                                                      Is it time to move this discussion over to the backpacking stoves discussion
                                                      list?


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                                      ------------------------------------

                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Ralph Oborn
                                                      ... Sorry, don t do Red Bull, so I assumed they were all the same. Didn t mean to confuse. Ralph [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jan 6, 2009
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:59 AM, EHamilton <imagainst_the_wind@...>wrote:

                                                        > Oh, ok.... I thought you were talking about the skinny little Red Bull can.
                                                        > MacG


                                                        Sorry, don't do Red Bull, so I assumed they were all the same.

                                                        Didn't mean to confuse.


                                                        Ralph


                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • no_p55
                                                        ... have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear. The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering leaving behind
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Blake Robert <xflagstaff9@...>
                                                          wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---I
                                                          have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear.
                                                          The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering
                                                          leaving behind my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a fuel
                                                          tablet buring Esbit stove or making an alcohol stove.
                                                          >  
                                                          > The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title
                                                          Cool little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see
                                                          what I am planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have
                                                          to figure where one can still find wire coat hangers and get a quarter
                                                          handful of fiberglass insulation.
                                                          >
                                                          > But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that
                                                          alcohol stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the
                                                          aluminum can not take the heat too many times---long trail hikers
                                                          interviewed say they are lucky if such a stove lasts 500 miles.
                                                          >
                                                          > Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a
                                                          stove lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a hike.
                                                          >
                                                          > Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?
                                                          >
                                                          > How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use
                                                          is over or does it go straight from useful to gone?
                                                          >
                                                          > R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ
                                                          >


                                                          Robert in reply to your question I found an alternative to the soda
                                                          can stove that will last longer, be more robust and just as easy to
                                                          make. Check out this YouTube link
                                                          (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcrW27Leo4w) and it will show you how.
                                                          I haven't made one yet, but I will as soon as I find the bottles.
                                                          Happy camping

                                                          P Thomson
                                                          Minnestoa
                                                        • Michael
                                                          Just another place you might want to read is on the www.linvillegorge.net website under Gear we ve been discussing Stoves
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Feb 19, 2009
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Just another place you might want to read is on the
                                                            www.linvillegorge.net <http://www.linvillegorge.net> website under Gear
                                                            we've been discussing Stoves
                                                            <http://www.linvillegorge.net/smf/index.php?topic=416.0> there and
                                                            I've been playing around with several designs and one purchased version
                                                            from www.whitebox.com <http://www.whitebox.com>

                                                            Also on the Hammock Forums <http://hammockforums.net/> there are more
                                                            discussions of alcohol stoves

                                                            Sorry if I've just repeated a bunch of links everyone has already known
                                                            about ... new to this group.

                                                            Michael


                                                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "no_p55" <6thomsons@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Blake Robert xflagstaff9@
                                                            > wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > As I reach the age at which every ounce is felt in backpacking---I
                                                            > have begun to reduce the weight of my load by going to lighter gear.
                                                            > The first step was in going to hammock camping. Now, I am considering
                                                            > leaving behind my faithful Optimus 99 (sob!!!) and using either a fuel
                                                            > tablet buring Esbit stove or making an alcohol stove.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > The one I am considering is found on several sites with the title
                                                            > Cool little miniature stove-----if you google that title you will see
                                                            > what I am planning to make and hope to carry backpacking. I just have
                                                            > to figure where one can still find wire coat hangers and get a quarter
                                                            > handful of fiberglass insulation.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > But, my real concern is that I found several sites that say that
                                                            > alcohol stoves made of soft drink cans do not last because the
                                                            > aluminum can not take the heat too many times---long trail hikers
                                                            > interviewed say they are lucky if such a stove lasts 500 miles.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Now that sounds like quite a bit of use---but, no matter how long a
                                                            > stove lasts---I don't want one that lets me down partway through a
                                                            hike.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Has anyone in this forum had experience with this?
                                                            > >
                                                            > > How does such a stove deteriorate? Does it warn you before its use
                                                            > is over or does it go straight from useful to gone?
                                                            > >
                                                            > > R Blake, Flagstaff, AZ
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Robert in reply to your question I found an alternative to the soda
                                                            > can stove that will last longer, be more robust and just as easy to
                                                            > make. Check out this YouTube link
                                                            > (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcrW27Leo4w) and it will show you how.
                                                            > I haven't made one yet, but I will as soon as I find the bottles.
                                                            > Happy camping
                                                            >
                                                            > P Thomson
                                                            > Minnestoa
                                                            >




                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • Blake Robert
                                                            Thank you PT.   I ended up going with a homemade Starlyte stove as per the instructions you get if you google Starlyte Knockoff. There is a set of three
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Feb 19, 2009
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Thank you PT.
                                                               
                                                              I ended up going with a homemade Starlyte stove as per the instructions you get if you google Starlyte Knockoff. There is a set of three videos about this.
                                                               
                                                              You take a 2" diameter wedding favor tin-remove the transparent plastic window and put a stainless steel screen disk in the lid-they come in a perfect size to dome up. Then, you cut a larger than 2" diamter of fiberglass cloth-place this on top of-and, partially around a wad of pink fiberglass insulation and place that in the wedding tin bottom smoothing the cloth so it is an even layer under the screen when you place the lid back on.
                                                               
                                                              This makes a great stove and I found it works great with a canteen cup stand/stove. This is a lightweight "ring" that fits under a military canteen cup-with the same shape-in fact, the cup fits around the base of a military canteen and the reversed cup stand fits around the cup-so the whole assembly takes up only about 2-3% more volume than the canteen alone.

                                                              When used as a stove/stand-you place the Starlyte on the ground-get it going-attach the stove/stand under the cup and place the assembly over the flame. The stand/stove has holes for ventilation.
                                                               
                                                              My main complaint about this design is you have to buy many times as much material as you need. The smallest fiberglass cloth I found was 8 sq. feet at Walmart---admitedly only about $4.50. I found the wedding tins at Michaels (arts & crafts) and had to buy 30!!!! The stainless steel disks I got via ebay and had to buy 25!!!! You are supposed to use pink insulation (no webstite says why yellow won't do) and my insulation is yellow so I had to buy some.
                                                               
                                                              So, I ended up with enough materials to build 25 of these stoves with excess wedding tins left after I run out of stainless steel disks-not to mention fiberglass cloth and insulation.
                                                               
                                                              But, I like the design and I am glad I made it!!!!!
                                                               
                                                              For those interested in this-google the web with search terms: Starlyte Knockoff and also try: Starlyte alcohol stove.

                                                              The finnished stove weighs about 1/3rd of an ounce and the insulation holds the alcohol in if the stove is tipped.

                                                              I recommend these even if you are stuck with too many. I may give mine extras out at Flagstaff Hiking Club potlucks as door prizes.

                                                              --- On Wed, 2/18/09, no_p55 <6thomsons@...> wrote:


                                                              Robert in reply to your question I found an alternative to the soda
                                                              can stove that will last longer, be more robust and just as easy to
                                                              make. Check out this YouTube link
                                                              (http://www.youtube com/watch? v=AcrW27Leo4w) and it will show you how.
                                                              I haven't made one yet, but I will as soon as I find the bottles.
                                                              Happy camping

                                                              P Thomson
                                                              Minnestoa
                                                            • mrbyer
                                                              I love the Starlyte. You can t beat its fuel efficiency and it works great even in sub zero temps, few alcohol stoves do. rb ... instructions you get if you
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Feb 20, 2009
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                I love the Starlyte. You can't beat its fuel efficiency and it works
                                                                great even in sub zero temps, few alcohol stoves do.

                                                                rb

                                                                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Blake Robert <xflagstaff9@...>
                                                                wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > Thank you PT.
                                                                >  
                                                                > I ended up going with a homemade Starlyte stove as per the
                                                                instructions you get if you google Starlyte Knockoff. There is a set
                                                                of three videos about this.
                                                                >  
                                                                > You take a 2" diameter wedding favor tin-remove the transparent
                                                                plastic window and put a stainless steel screen disk in the lid-they
                                                                come in a perfect size to dome up. Then, you cut a larger than 2"
                                                                diamter of fiberglass cloth-place this on top of-and, partially around
                                                                a wad of pink fiberglass insulation and place that in the wedding tin
                                                                bottom smoothing the cloth so it is an even layer under the screen
                                                                when you place the lid back on.
                                                                >  
                                                                > This makes a great stove and I found it works great with a canteen
                                                                cup stand/stove. This is a lightweight "ring" that fits under a
                                                                military canteen cup-with the same shape-in fact, the cup fits around
                                                                the base of a military canteen and the reversed cup stand fits around
                                                                the cup-so the whole assembly takes up only about 2-3% more volume
                                                                than the canteen alone.
                                                                >
                                                                > When used as a stove/stand-you place the Starlyte on the ground-get
                                                                it going-attach the stove/stand under the cup and place the assembly
                                                                over the flame. The stand/stove has holes for ventilation.
                                                                >  
                                                                > My main complaint about this design is you have to buy many times as
                                                                much material as you need. The smallest fiberglass cloth I found was 8
                                                                sq. feet at Walmart---admitedly only about $4.50. I found the wedding
                                                                tins at Michaels (arts & crafts) and had to buy 30!!!! The stainless
                                                                steel disks I got via ebay and had to buy 25!!!! You are supposed to
                                                                use pink insulation (no webstite says why yellow won't do) and my
                                                                insulation is yellow so I had to buy some.
                                                                >  
                                                                > So, I ended up with enough materials to build 25 of these stoves
                                                                with excess wedding tins left after I run out of stainless steel
                                                                disks-not to mention fiberglass cloth and insulation.
                                                                >  
                                                                > But, I like the design and I am glad I made it!!!!!
                                                                >  
                                                                > For those interested in this-google the web with search terms:
                                                                Starlyte Knockoff and also try: Starlyte alcohol stove.
                                                                >
                                                                > The finnished stove weighs about 1/3rd of an ounce and the
                                                                insulation holds the alcohol in if the stove is tipped.
                                                                >
                                                                > I recommend these even if you are stuck with too many. I may give
                                                                mine extras out at Flagstaff Hiking Club potlucks as door prizes.
                                                                >
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