My Thoughts on Vapor Barriers... again
- Vapor barriers aren't that easy to use if you don't understand what is
going on and they aren't that hard to use if you do. Does that make
any sense? If it does, you don't need to read any further. If it
doesn't, then read on and I will see if I can make it make sense for you.
I use plastic or silnylon as a vapor barrier between my hammock and my
SnugFit Underquilt. The suspension system on the SnugFit helps keep
the vapor barrier against the fabric of the hammock to minimize air
gaps that would encourage insensible perspiration to condense and
pool. With the vapor barrier held in place against the underside of
the hammock fabric, the hammock fabric wicks away any slight buildup
of insensible perspiration where it can more easily evaporate and I
usually don't even notice it. I pick when I do that and understand
how to use it. It is been very effective for me at extending the
lower temperature range that I can use my underquilt. I would not use
a vapor barrier when I was using the underquilt in warmer conditions
because then I would be dealing with sweat and there would be larger
amounts of sweat/moisture to deal with as the vapor barrier would
cause me to overheat even more and prevent moisture from sweat from
passing through the breathable underquilt.
In general, breathable insulation works best when your insulation is
getting too warm for you and less breathable insulation works best
when your insulation is not quite warm enough for you. That has
everything to do with how, when, and why your body produces sweat (or
sensible perspiration) and insensible perspiration.
Your body produces sweat to help cool off at the outer surface of your
skin with evaporative cooling when you overheat. Your body does not
produce sweat when you are not overheating... you don't just leak
water through your skin all the time. When you are not sweating, your
body can produce insensible perspiration to keep your skin from drying
out. If your skin is moist enough, or not too dry, your body doesn't
produce insensible perspiration because it senses that it doesn't need
It takes energy for your body to produce insensible perspiration.
When you are not overheating and your skin is not producing sweat, a
vapor barrier will cause your skin to quit producing insensible
perspiration after some period of time. Your skin quits producing
insensible perspiration because the vapor barrier creates a high
humidity environment by trapping the moisture from your previous
insensible perspiration. When this happens your body does not use
energy to produce that insensible perspiration anymore and can use
that energy to help keep you warmer. It a sense, your body becomes a
more efficient furnace.
A vapor barrier is not so good when used at the wrong time or when
used incorrectly. When you are overheating and using a vapor barrier,
your skin continually produces sweat as a means of cooling off via
evaporative cooling. The vapor barrier prevents the evaporative
cooling because the sweat is trapped by the vapor barrier. You just
keep sweating and moisture can build up. You need to do something to
keep from overheating because what you body is doing isn't working
because of the vapor barrier. You need to remove the vapor barrier,
vent, or remove insulation.
When you use a vapor barrier with breathable insulation between it and
your skin, that breathable insulation is subject to getting moist or
even wet from insensible perspiration. The insensible perspiration
will initially pass through the breathable insulation and stop when it
hits the vapor barrier. This continues until the humidity builds up
enough for skin to quit producing insensible perspiration. But until
that happens, that breathable insulation is going to be getting moist
too. What you want is a thin wickable sheet of fabric between you and
the vapor barrier such that it can wick any slight moisture buildup
away where it can evaporate into the surrounding air. Of course it
helps for the surrounding air to be able to absorb that moisture
because if it can't, it won't and you will be clammy.
And of course, if you use breathable insulation between you and a
vapor barrier while you are overheating, you will soak that breathable
insulation with sweat (sensible perspiration). That is bad and that
happens when people don't understand how and when to use a vapor
Vapor barriers work well for people that know when and how to use them
and are often problems or even disasters for people that don't.
aka Youngblood AT2000
designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender, SnugFit Underquilt, and
- I think another consideration for vapor barriers is ambient humidity.
It's not just your own body producing sweat that makes them work. They
also rely on the material wicking away moisture--or being dry at the
With a vapor barrier, if you start out too wet, you won't
dry--especially when it's extremely humid.
So, I'm not convinced vapor barriers work under rolling fogs, typhoons,
and other extremely humid conditions--all are damp, cold, and
The Appalachian Mountains have often been called a Temperate Rain
Forest. In Taiwan at the elevations where I hike (2000-3000 m), the
mountains are Temperate Rain Forest, too. Because the ambient humidity
is so high, Taiwan's hikers tend to carry down bags rated for much
colder temperatures than expected. This is because the humidity
permeates everything and affects loft. Under these conditions, damp
clothes, if slept in, usually do not dry. So, I make sure I pack
sleeping clothes (including socks) in the same bag as my sleeping bag
and I change into these clothes right before bedtime.
- I invited people on this list to go---here is how it
An irony about my ascender as hammock end clamps---we
just had one of our two gear swaps at Four Seasons
Outfitters---I went on the hike instead---but, one of
our members sold her 1990's Jumar ascenders for $10.
I wish I had asked what she would be asking!
1.) Les has had some changes in his plans for the end
of the week. He can no longer go in to the camspite at
Dave Joy Point Thursday---not until late Friday. While
this would enable me to camp out Friday night and save
the best campsite for you folks---I do not feel that
Les should have to go in Friday afternoon/night and
come back again in the morning---so, I suggest we just
assemble at 8 a.m. Saturday morning-load up and go
out. No flagging. Les could be the only one driving
I have not heard from Les that the current snow fall
will affect our plans. If there is any concern about
the road conditions-we could reverse the Dave Joy
Point and Pumphouse Wash schedules.
2.) I picked Katarina up at her dormitory on the NAU
campus and drove down to the Wet Beaver trailhead.
Here, we were soon joined by Mary/Sedona Meg and
started in. The recent rainfall had allowed ocotillo
to show leaves and blossoms. Arriving in the camping
area---Mary and Katarina chose the first set of flats
beyond the big pool rather than the more extensive
flats with (slightly) more shade. An advantage was
that these flats gave a very good view of the big pool
shelves so they could look for our Saturday hikers.
Neither set of flats had trees suitable for hammock
camping---so, I followed a cactus lined ledge to a
climb down to the cove between the first set of flats
and the second and set my hammock up between two
ideally spaced box elders. Here, I had shade most of
the time. I watched leaves being blown in and out of
the shade and watched reflected ripples going up and
down the redrock face and the tree trunk. The sound
from the creek was more than a babble but less than a
roar---very continuous and very soothing. The book I
was trying to read kept becomming heavier and
heavier---as did my eyelids. I slept much of the day
as did Meg.
I did not get my get-up-and-go back the next day. If
the Saturday hikers had shown up I would have escorted
them to the prettiest half mile-nearly a mile and a
half beyond our campsite---but, we never saw them even
though Meg constantly watched for them and I went over
to the big pool once.
So, we loafed in camp. Katarina was the only one who
The next day we hiked out early---while it was still
I later learned that two of our Saturday hikers had
come in ALMOST far enought to link with us.
The trail in to the campsite.
A volcanic dike cuts through the Supai sandstone:
The climb down from the upper camping area.
The ledge to the climb.
Poison ivy or young box elder?????
Meg's REI half dome. One pole too long?????
Campers who came in at 3:30 a.m. None too quiet!!!!!!
Yes! I paid $10 for this hammock at a Mesa surplus
store 8 years ago!
Loooking downstream in the morning. Meg and Katarina
are camped on the shelf about 15+ feet above.
- The snow is already gone!
--- C C Wayah <ccwayah@...> wrote:
> Nice trip.
> How's the snow in Falgstaf?