Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Hammock Camping] leave no trace research on hammocks

Expand Messages
  • Nightwalker
    Link? Or maybe just an answer here? I use 1.5 polyester webbing around the trees. My goal, usually realised, is to not be able to tell that I ve used the
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 28, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Link? Or maybe just an answer here?

      I use 1.5" polyester webbing around the trees. My goal, usually realised, is
      to not be able to tell that I've used the tree, even on close inspection.

      I have no idea what you mean by rope angle. I use a hammock that
      automatically sets its own sag, if that's what you mean (a Hennessy
      Ultralight Backpacker Asym).

      Frank Looper
      (Nightwalker)

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Francois" <franczazou@...>
      To: <hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:24 PM
      Subject: [Hammock Camping] leave no trace research on hammocks


      We're doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees
      and we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us:
      1- what type of rope/strap you use and the size
      2-What is the perfect rope angle for confort (45 degrees from vertical??)

      We will let you know at the end of our research what combination as
      the least impact and on what kind of trees.
      Thanks in advance!
      -Franc and team «leave no trace»




      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Francois
      We re doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees and we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us: 1- what type of rope/strap
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 28, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        We're doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees
        and we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us:
        1- what type of rope/strap you use and the size
        2-What is the perfect rope angle for confort (45 degrees from vertical??)

        We will let you know at the end of our research what combination as
        the least impact and on what kind of trees.
        Thanks in advance!
        -Franc and team «leave no trace»
      • John Wilson
        I question the legitimacy of this post. I would think a request from a university: 1. Would originate from an .edu email site, and not hotmail, 2. Would be
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I question the legitimacy of this post. I would think a request
          from a university:
          1. Would originate from an .edu email site, and not hotmail,
          2. Would be better written, not containing phrases like "doing a
          university research," and
          3. Would not exhibit misspelled words.

          Perhaps a little more explanation is in order before we respond.

          John



          On Oct 28, 2007, at 22:24 , Francois wrote:

          > We're doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees
          > and we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us:
          > 1- what type of rope/strap you use and the size
          > 2-What is the perfect rope angle for confort (45 degrees from
          > vertical??)
          >
          > We will let you know at the end of our research what combination as
          > the least impact and on what kind of trees.
          > Thanks in advance!
          > -Franc and team «leave no trace»
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Cara Lin Bridgman
          ... True. Which university and which class or department. The email should also include complete contact information and, maybe, some information about how
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            John Wilson wrote:
            > I would think a request from a university:
            > 1. Would originate from an .edu email site, and not hotmail,
            > 2. Would be better written, not containing phrases like "doing a
            > university research," and
            > 3. Would not exhibit misspelled words.


            True. Which university and which class or department. The email should
            also include complete contact information and, maybe, some information
            about how the researchers will let us know the results of the study.

            If it's part of an undergraduate study, however, ...

            Surveys are research involving human subjects. There are protocols,
            even for undergraduate research.

            I'm interested in why 'Frank and team' think sag angle correlates to the
            effect on trees. Small trees can bend when sag angle is minimal, but
            large trees?

            From my own observations, the type of tree is far and away the most
            important thing. Hanging from a cork elm or a /Cryptomeria japonica/ or
            a sycamore or any other tree with spongy or flaky bark is going to leave
            a mark. Any tree covered in moss will get the moss scrapped off. The
            mark may be unsightly, but does it hurt the tree? I really doubt it.

            I hung one night from two 30-40-year-old /C. japonica/ trees. Six
            months later, you could still see the marks. Next week, I'll have a
            chance to check those trees again--it will be about 18 months, then.

            This last trip, I hung from /Alnus japonica/ trees on the edge of a
            logging road. The impact here was on the ground. The footprint was
            much less than that required by a tent, but there was still a
            footprint--all the stomping around I had to do to hang the hammock, hang
            the undercover, hang the tarp, and get to and from the hammock. A site
            more in the forest interior may not have shown any effect (absolutely no
            understory to stomp, there, just inches of downed leaves and branches
            from this month's typhoon). In this case, my husband in his tent
            actually had less of an effect. He put the tent smack in the middle of
            the logging road.

            CL
          • Moz
            ... Google searches suggest that he s not prolific... http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22leave+no+trace%22+zazou
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Francois said:
              > We're doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees
              > and we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us:
              > 1- what type of rope/strap you use and the size
              > 2-What is the perfect rope angle for confort (45 degrees from vertical??)

              Google searches suggest that he's not prolific...
              http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22leave+no+trace%22+zazou
              http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22leave+no+trace%22+franc
              http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22leave+no+trace%22+francois

              There is a leave no trace university course taught by a Frank...
              http://www.sustainfurman.com/calendar/2007/4/20/leave-no-trace.html

              But I am skeptical that this person is real. Perhaps they just have
              poor english, and with a name like Francois Zazou that's always
              possible. But no doubt they will post again to further explain
              themselves.

              moz
            • Mike Swaine
              What possible conclusion could you arrive at by answering these two questions, regarding the health of the tree? The best that could be derived is a survey of
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                What possible conclusion could you arrive at by answering these two questions, regarding the
                health of the tree? The best that could be derived is a survey of the various ropes availabe to
                hamock hangers and some mythical expressions of angle estimated. What this would have to
                do with LNT is equally mysterious.

                Mike
              • Ralph Oborn
                ... 1) Many government agencies have concerns about hammocks damaging trees (personal experience in Yellowstone). 2) Rope or strap size will give an estimate
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  On 10/29/07, Mike Swaine <mswaine@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > What possible conclusion could you arrive at by answering these two
                  > questions, regarding the
                  > health of the tree? The best that could be derived is a survey of the
                  > various ropes availabe to
                  > hamock hangers and some mythical expressions of angle estimated. What this
                  > would have to
                  > do with LNT is equally mysterious.
                  >
                  > Mike



                  1) Many government agencies have concerns about hammocks damaging trees
                  (personal experience in Yellowstone).
                  2) Rope or strap size will give an estimate of the "bearing surface" of the
                  bark. (would probably also need an estimate of tree diameter).
                  3) The hanging angle would (even from a HH) determine the tension on the
                  rope at the tree connection point and with (2) the force per area on the
                  bark (Hang weight would also be nice for this calculation). Using trig, the
                  higher the angle (tighter the rope) the greater the impact on the tree
                  (could even be over a thousand pounds of force for a tight hang).



                  While the request is unusual, I don't think it is out of line

                  Franc and team, tell us a little more about yourselves?
                  What can I do to help?



                  Ralph


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nightwalker
                  Doesn t matter a bit to me. I ll tell anyone who wants to know how I support my hammock. ... From: John Wilson To:
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Doesn't matter a bit to me. I'll tell anyone who wants to know how I support
                    my hammock.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "John Wilson" <navjohn@...>
                    To: <hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 5:48 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] leave no trace research on hammocks


                    I question the legitimacy of this post. I would think a request
                    from a university:
                    1. Would originate from an .edu email site, and not hotmail,
                    2. Would be better written, not containing phrases like "doing a
                    university research," and
                    3. Would not exhibit misspelled words.

                    Perhaps a little more explanation is in order before we respond.

                    John



                    On Oct 28, 2007, at 22:24 , Francois wrote:

                    > We're doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees
                    > and we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us:
                    > 1- what type of rope/strap you use and the size
                    > 2-What is the perfect rope angle for confort (45 degrees from
                    > vertical??)
                    >
                    > We will let you know at the end of our research what combination as
                    > the least impact and on what kind of trees.
                    > Thanks in advance!
                    > -Franc and team «leave no trace»
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • C C Wayah
                    We re doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees and we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us: 1- what type of rope/strap
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      We're doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees and
                      we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us:

                      1- what type of rope/strap you use and the size
                      2-What is the perfect rope angle for confort (45 degrees from vertical??)

                      Without studying the trees long term for damage how can you know what is
                      best. One night on a tree may not show damage untill weeks and months from
                      when it was used
                      so the hiker is not there to observe.

                      Angle is not specific enough to answer properly/scientificaly I would
                      think.. I don't think there's a hammock alive that is horizontal to the
                      tree it's hung from.
                      Unless it s the tent platform that is wratched to the tree.
                      Distance apart the trees are and the sag of the hammock
                      with a lot of other variables such as your weight how tight you stretched
                      the hammock all are variables to concider.

                      Angle of the rope sides against the tree may not be under exacting controll
                      for a defintive study and different barks such as smoothed barked trees
                      verse rough barked trees may be an issue too.
                      .
                      That being said I use the tree huggers from Ton Hennesy.
                      Angles varry each time it's used acodrding to the disance of the trees and
                      how taught I hung the hammock. I don';t have a level on my hammock for
                      complete data records.

                      Rogene
                    • the gnome of blue island
                      so it is not written perfectly, perhaps someone is just curious
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        so it is not written perfectly, perhaps someone is just curious< whats the harm? the gnome


                        the gnome of blue island
                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        http://mail.yahoo.com

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • cuicui97
                        ... vertical??) ... I, too, am skeptical. Perhaps a little more info would serve to inspire confidence. What school is involved? What is the name and number
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Francois" <franczazou@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > We're doing a university reseach about the impact of hammocks on trees
                          > and we need your help! Please take a few seconds to tell us:
                          > 1- what type of rope/strap you use and the size
                          > 2-What is the perfect rope angle for confort (45 degrees from
                          vertical??)
                          >
                          > We will let you know at the end of our research what combination as
                          > the least impact and on what kind of trees.
                          > Thanks in advance!
                          > -Franc and team «leave no trace»
                          >
                          I, too, am skeptical. Perhaps a little more info would serve to
                          inspire confidence. What school is involved? What is the name and
                          number of the course? Who is the instructor? How is impact to be
                          guaged?
                        • Ralph Oborn
                          On 10/29/07, C C Wayah wrote: Angle is not specific enough to answer properly/scientificaly I would think.. I don t think there s a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 29, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On 10/29/07, C C Wayah <ccwayah@...> wrote:

                            Angle is not specific enough to answer properly/scientificaly I would
                            think.. I don't think there's a hammock alive that is horizontal to the
                            tree it's hung from.
                            Unless it s the tent platform that is wratched to the tree.
                            Distance apart the trees are and the sag of the hammock
                            with a lot of other variables such as your weight how tight you stretched
                            the hammock all are variables to concider.


                            Sure it is, I weigh about 200 lbs, assume half my weight is supported by
                            each support rope.

                            If I was hanging veritcally (straight down there would be1 00 lbs of force
                            on each rope (and each tree).
                            If the angle at the trees was 45° there would be 141 lbs of force on each
                            rope (and the tree).
                            100 lbs vertically down, 100 lbs horizontally in, with a vector sum of 141
                            lbs along the rope.
                            Different angles would have different forces on the tree.


                            Ralph


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Nightwalker
                            ... My thoughts exactly. What s the harm?
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 30, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > so it is not written perfectly, perhaps someone is just curious< whats the
                              > harm? the gnome
                              >
                              >
                              > the gnome of blue island
                              > __________________________________________________
                              My thoughts exactly. What's the harm?
                            • list@moz.geek.nz
                              ... The harm in poor research is that it s often reported only in summary form, so poor research becomes poor conclusions and often leads to poor rules. In
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 30, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >> so it is not written perfectly, perhaps someone is just curious< whats
                                >> the

                                The harm in poor research is that it's often reported only in summary
                                form, so poor research becomes poor conclusions and often leads to
                                poor rules. In this case, since not enough information is gathered
                                to justify any conclusion, it's possible that whatever the report
                                falsely concludes will be used to make rules (or at least political
                                points) that have no bearing on facts. Specifically, reinforcement
                                bias will mean it's used primarily by opponents of deviant behaviour
                                (hammock camping) to justify bans. Which would be bad.

                                I also oppose it simply becuase it's poor research. Which is bad
                                in and of itself. Poor research can only be justified by a strong
                                argument that the proposed research is the best possible. We're
                                not seeing that here, just two inane questions dumped into the
                                list then left unsupported. If nothing else, research involves
                                a dialog...

                                Moz
                              • Ralph Oborn
                                Hey folks, lets keep the discussion happy and positive! (not meaning to disrespect anybody) but Ed set up this list as a good positive way to spread
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 30, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hey folks, lets keep the discussion happy and positive!
                                  (not meaning to disrespect anybody) but Ed set up this list as a good
                                  positive way to spread information about hammock camping.

                                  If you feel the initial request is misguided, what would you suggest?

                                  If you were to design research properly, what would you be looking at?


                                  I agree with Moz, research involves a dialog




                                  Franc and team: talk to us, we have some suggestions.

                                  Ralph Oborn


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Tod Massa
                                  Further, if this is from a US institution, since it is survey research with no promise of anonymity, there is a good chance it violates the human subject
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 30, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Further, if this is from a US institution, since it is survey research with no promise of anonymity, there is a good chance it violates the human subject protocols required by the feds to be in place at all US institutions receiving federal funds and thus a complain could put those funds at risk ...regardless whether or not funded researchers were involved.



                                    It's just good practice to stop bad research practice...other folks can get hurt.

                                    There are those of us on the list who make our living doing and supporting academic research, and we can help.

                                    Tod
                                    ______________________________________________________________________________

                                    Ain't got no mo' mojo, but I got plenty o' banjo.



                                    ----- Original Message ----

                                    From: "list@..." <list@...>

                                    To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com

                                    Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:11:43 PM

                                    Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: leave no trace research on hammocks



                                    >> so it is not written perfectly, perhaps someone is just curious< whats

                                    >> the



                                    The harm in poor research is that it's often reported only in summary

                                    form, so poor research becomes poor conclusions and often leads to

                                    poor rules. In this case, since not enough information is gathered

                                    to justify any conclusion, it's possible that whatever the report

                                    falsely concludes will be used to make rules (or at least political

                                    points) that have no bearing on facts. Specifically, reinforcement

                                    bias will mean it's used primarily by opponents of deviant behaviour

                                    (hammock camping) to justify bans. Which would be bad.



                                    I also oppose it simply becuase it's poor research. Which is bad

                                    in and of itself. Poor research can only be justified by a strong

                                    argument that the proposed research is the best possible. We're

                                    not seeing that here, just two inane questions dumped into the

                                    list then left unsupported. If nothing else, research involves

                                    a dialog...



                                    Moz





                                    <!-- #ygrp-mkp{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;} #ygrp-mkp hr{ border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrp-mkp #hd{ color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;} #ygrp-mkp #ads{ margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-mkp .ad{ padding:0 0;} #ygrp-mkp .ad a{ color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} --> <!-- #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{ font-family:Arial;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{ margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{ margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} --> <!-- #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;} #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;} #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;} #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;} #ygrp-text{ font-family:Georgia; } #ygrp-text p{ margin:0 0 1em 0;} #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                                    font-family:Arial; clear:both;} #ygrp-vitnav{ padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;} #ygrp-vitnav a{ padding:0 1px;} #ygrp-actbar{ clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;} #ygrp-actbar .left{ float:left;white-space:nowrap;} .bld{font-weight:bold;} #ygrp-grft{ font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;} #ygrp-ft{ font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666; padding:5px 0; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{ padding-bottom:10px;} #ygrp-vital{ background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;} #ygrp-vital #vithd{ font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;} #ygrp-vital ul{ padding:0;margin:2px 0;} #ygrp-vital ul li{ list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee; } #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{ font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;} #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{ font-weight:bold;}
                                    #ygrp-vital a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-vital a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor #hd{ color:#999;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov{ padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{ padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{ list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;} #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{ text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;} #ygrp-sponsor #nc{ background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad{ padding:8px 0;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{ font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{ text-decoration:none;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{ text-decoration:underline;} #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{ margin:0;} o{font-size:0;} .MsoNormal{ margin:0 0 0 0;} #ygrp-text tt{ font-size:120%;} blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;} .replbq{margin:4;} -->
                                  • pure mahem
                                    Maybe there just curious of what kinds of hammock attachments to test and not particularly interested in you in particular. So as to find the most benificial
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 30, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Maybe there just curious of what kinds of hammock attachments to test and not particularly interested in you in particular. So as to find the most benificial low impact on tree to hammock connection possible, hmmm!JMO from what's been said. If I were at a university and looking to do research on leave no trace hammock connections I don't know if I would necessarily do an official request to get random results of what types of connections people are using. Someone read way to far into this. I use a 2" poly strap conected to the byers of maine micro adjuster. don't know the angle


                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: Nightwalker <Nightwalker.AT@...>
                                      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:54:33 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: leave no trace research on hammocks

                                      > so it is not written perfectly, perhaps someone is just curious< whats the
                                      > harm? the gnome
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > the gnome of blue island
                                      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
                                      My thoughts exactly. What's the harm?




                                      __________________________________________________
                                      Do You Yahoo!?
                                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                      http://mail.yahoo.com

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • amendment2@aol.com
                                      I don t do research, just a hammock owner. Before Trailplace closed it s doors recently, I was attempting to get some information on the effect of hammocks on
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 30, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I don't do research, just a hammock owner. Before Trailplace closed it's
                                        doors recently, I was attempting to get some information on the effect of
                                        hammocks on trees. I asked folks at Oregon State University to comment on what
                                        effect hammocks would have on the tree. There was nothing scientific quoted from
                                        Leave no trace institute or OSU. They "felt" there would be no harmful
                                        effects.



                                        ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Francois
                                        ... Good point. The project is a 90 hour research for éthique de l environnement at the niversity of Chicoutimi (Quebec)where I m doing a bachelor in
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 31, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, John Wilson <navjohn@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I question the legitimacy of this post. I would think a request
                                          > from a university:
                                          > 1. Would originate from an .edu email site, and not hotmail,
                                          > 2. Would be better written, not containing phrases like "doing a
                                          > university research," and
                                          > 3. Would not exhibit misspelled words.
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps a little more explanation is in order before we respond.
                                          >
                                          > John

                                          Good point. The project is a 90 hour research for ''éthique de
                                          l'environnement'' at the niversity of Chicoutimi (Quebec)where I'm
                                          doing a bachelor in ''Plein air et tourisme d'aventure''. Sorry about
                                          the mistakes but my english is not so good. I've been a member here
                                          for 3 years and used my own log-in.
                                          -Franc
                                        • Sandy Kramer
                                          ... How interesting, an undergraduate program in Outdoors and Adventure Tourism. sandy kramer miami
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 1, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Francois" <franczazou@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >> >
                                            > > University of Chicoutimi (Quebec)where I'm
                                            > doing a bachelor in ''Plein air et tourisme d'aventure''.

                                            How interesting, an undergraduate program in Outdoors and Adventure
                                            Tourism.

                                            sandy kramer
                                            miami
                                          • Nightwalker
                                            Franc, don t worry. Some people see black helicopters under every rock. Or something like that... ... Good point. The project is a 90 hour research for
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 2, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Franc, don't worry. Some people see black helicopters under every rock. Or something like that...

                                              :-)


                                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                              Good point. The project is a 90 hour research for ''éthique de
                                              l'environnement'' at the niversity of Chicoutimi (Quebec)where I'm
                                              doing a bachelor in ''Plein air et tourisme d'aventure''. Sorry about
                                              the mistakes but my english is not so good. I've been a member here
                                              for 3 years and used my own log-in.
                                              -Franc


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.