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Re: [Hammock Camping] Gila Wilderness trip report

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  • Billy Chard
    Great Report!! Pack Goats, I like that idea where can one find pack goats? then i wont even have to mow the yard at home anymore!!! ... From: Jeff Ross To:
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 28, 2007
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      Great Report!!
      Pack Goats, I like that idea where can one find pack goats? then i wont even have to mow the yard at home anymore!!!

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jeff Ross
      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 9:27 AM
      Subject: [Hammock Camping] Gila Wilderness trip report


      Just got back from a week in the Gila Wilderness (SW NM). Hiked in
      (with packgoats) about 8 miles to friends' elk hunting camp. Very
      remote, trails faint and rough. Beautiful weather, days 70's, nites
      40's, a little rain, hunting unsuccessful. Saw some big bull elk,
      just couldn't get close enough. Saw only 2 other hunters. Spent 7
      nites in my Hennessy Expedition Asym.

      What worked:
      ------------
      Goats. They are only a year and half old so they can't carry much
      yet. But they did carry about 30lb (10lb of stuff for them, and 20lb
      of my stuff) between the 3 of them. Next year they will be able to
      carry about 40 lb each. That way I can bring in a few more basic
      essentials (beer, steaks, lawn chairs, etc). They slept under an
      8x10 tarp, ate weeds, flowers, pine needles, drank from the stream.
      No problems. I think coyotes got close one nite and I found them
      sleeping under my hammock the next morning. Otherwise they were in
      heaven and had a wonderful time.

      Hammock. Pretty comfy. I'm 6-3, 200 lb and this hammock is just
      barely big enough. I would like to have a bit more foot room. But
      all in all, quite comfortable. Sure beats sleeping on the ground.

      Alcohol stove. Homemade from a couple of cat food cans. Used Walmart
      91% isopropyl as fuel. Works good.

      MSR Miniworks water filter. Water was clear and clean looking, but
      you never can tell. I like this filter because I can clean it when
      it gets clogged. There are certainly lighter filters, but this one
      is rugged and easy to maintain.

      What didn't work:
      -----------------
      Hammock rainfly is minimal. I hear their new ones are bigger. I
      wound up using a 10x10 nylon tarp from Campmore. That worked fine.
      Now there's plenty of dry room under the hammock for my pack, boots,
      etc. (even goats).

      Hammock "undercover" is minimal. It's a very thin layer of foam
      that's cleverly suspended beneath the hammock. Maybe better than
      nothing, but not much. I used my big old Thermarest Camprest
      mattress inside the hammock, under my sleeping bag. Not cold from
      below any more. It would be nice to find a way to secure this thing
      inside the hammock so it doesn't slide around tho. I tied a string
      around the inlet valve and ran that thru the end of the hammock.
      Thrashing around on it one nite I pulled the inlet valve out of it.
      Not good. I think I fixed it tho.

      Sleeping bag. I used a Slumberjack bag containing something
      called "polar guard" that's rated for 20 degrees. HA! I don't know
      if other sleeping bag mfgrs ratings are so overstated, but that one
      sure is. I used my rain jacket as a blanket to cover my feet, and
      wore pants, two shirts, two pairs of socks. Then I was pretty warm.
      In freezing weather I would have been cold.

      Here are a few pics:

      http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/gilatrailhead.jpg
      http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/lenwgoats.jpg
      http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/gilatrip1.jpg
      http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/claytoncreek.jpg
      http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/stormcomin.jpg






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Thomas Vickers
      Were you using the HH undercover and underpad? IF so you probably should have put a reflective (silver)emergency blanket between the undercover and underpad.
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 29, 2007
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        Were you using the HH undercover and underpad?
        IF so you probably should have put a reflective (silver)emergency blanket
        between the undercover and underpad. This helped me get down to about 26 F
        in my Ultra light backpacker asym.

        TV
      • Jeff Ross
        Yes, that s how I was using it. Thanks for the tip. I will try that. A space blanket would be a lot more compact and lighter than the Camprest mattress, that s
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 29, 2007
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          Yes, that's how I was using it. Thanks for the tip. I will try that. A
          space blanket would be a lot more compact and lighter than the
          Camprest mattress, that's for sure.


          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Were you using the HH undercover and underpad?
          > IF so you probably should have put a reflective (silver)emergency
          blanket
          > between the undercover and underpad. This helped me get down to
          about 26 F
          > in my Ultra light backpacker asym.
          >
          > TV
          >
        • N Thomas
          I am curious as to what supplies you carried for the goats. You mentioned that they foraged, but what type of food or other items did you carry for them? How
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 29, 2007
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            I am curious as to what supplies you carried for the goats. You mentioned that they foraged, but what type of food or other items did you carry for them? How much weight do you expect them to carry when they fully mature? What type of pack/saddle/whatever did you use for them? Did you transport them out there yourself? Any problems from the park people?

            Nice pics. I am in central Texas and goats are a dime a dozen here. I have pondered starting a herd for such activities, but am curious about the overall effort.




            ---------------------------------
            Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • boardmanmw
            ... Can you tell the trail you took? Nice pics. Not worried about lions getting at the goats? Regards, Mike
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 30, 2007
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              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
              <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
              >
              > Just got back from a week in the Gila Wilderness (SW NM). Hiked in
              > (with packgoats) about 8 miles to friends' elk hunting camp. Very
              > remote, trails faint and rough. Beautiful weather, days 70's, nites
              > 40's, a little rain, hunting unsuccessful. Saw some big bull elk,
              > just couldn't get close enough. Saw only 2 other hunters. Spent 7
              > nites in my Hennessy Expedition Asym.
              >
              > I'm thinking of a trip there soon. What trailhead did you start at?
              Can you tell the trail you took? Nice pics. Not worried about lions
              getting at the goats? Regards, Mike
            • tim garner
              jeff... i ve herd more people say that the hh super shelter did not live up to thier expectations than those that were happy w/ them. under quilts seem to be
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 1, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                jeff... i've herd more people say that the hh super shelter did not live up to thier expectations than those that were happy w/ them.
                under quilts seem to be one of the best solutions.
                check out http://hammockforums.net for more hammock camping info than you can shake a stick at. ...tim


                Jeff Ross <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                Just got back from a week in the Gila Wilderness (SW NM). Hiked in
                (with packgoats) about 8 miles to friends' elk hunting camp. Very
                remote, trails faint and rough. Beautiful weather, days 70's, nites
                40's, a little rain, hunting unsuccessful. Saw some big bull elk,
                just couldn't get close enough. Saw only 2 other hunters. Spent 7
                nites in my Hennessy Expedition Asym.

                What worked:
                ------------
                Goats. They are only a year and half old so they can't carry much
                yet. But they did carry about 30lb (10lb of stuff for them, and 20lb
                of my stuff) between the 3 of them. Next year they will be able to
                carry about 40 lb each. That way I can bring in a few more basic
                essentials (beer, steaks, lawn chairs, etc). They slept under an
                8x10 tarp, ate weeds, flowers, pine needles, drank from the stream.
                No problems. I think coyotes got close one nite and I found them
                sleeping under my hammock the next morning. Otherwise they were in
                heaven and had a wonderful time.

                Hammock. Pretty comfy. I'm 6-3, 200 lb and this hammock is just
                barely big enough. I would like to have a bit more foot room. But
                all in all, quite comfortable. Sure beats sleeping on the ground.

                Alcohol stove. Homemade from a couple of cat food cans. Used Walmart
                91% isopropyl as fuel. Works good.

                MSR Miniworks water filter. Water was clear and clean looking, but
                you never can tell. I like this filter because I can clean it when
                it gets clogged. There are certainly lighter filters, but this one
                is rugged and easy to maintain.

                What didn't work:
                -----------------
                Hammock rainfly is minimal. I hear their new ones are bigger. I
                wound up using a 10x10 nylon tarp from Campmore. That worked fine.
                Now there's plenty of dry room under the hammock for my pack, boots,
                etc. (even goats).

                Hammock "undercover" is minimal. It's a very thin layer of foam
                that's cleverly suspended beneath the hammock. Maybe better than
                nothing, but not much. I used my big old Thermarest Camprest
                mattress inside the hammock, under my sleeping bag. Not cold from
                below any more. It would be nice to find a way to secure this thing
                inside the hammock so it doesn't slide around tho. I tied a string
                around the inlet valve and ran that thru the end of the hammock.
                Thrashing around on it one nite I pulled the inlet valve out of it.
                Not good. I think I fixed it tho.

                Sleeping bag. I used a Slumberjack bag containing something
                called "polar guard" that's rated for 20 degrees. HA! I don't know
                if other sleeping bag mfgrs ratings are so overstated, but that one
                sure is. I used my rain jacket as a blanket to cover my feet, and
                wore pants, two shirts, two pairs of socks. Then I was pretty warm.
                In freezing weather I would have been cold.

                Here are a few pics:

                http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/gilatrailhead.jpg
                http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/lenwgoats.jpg
                http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/gilatrip1.jpg
                http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/claytoncreek.jpg
                http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/stormcomin.jpg




                Yahoo! Groups Links






                don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!


                ---------------------------------
                Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeff Ross
                Neither I, nor the goats, carried any food for them. They did carry a couple liters of water, but they didn t drink it. I did. They drank from stream
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 1, 2007
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                  Neither I, nor the goats, carried any food for them. They did carry
                  a couple liters of water, but they didn't drink it. I did. They
                  drank from stream crossings. They ate wild forage (pine needles, oak
                  leaves, twigs, flowers, weeds, etc, etc). They eat a little grass,
                  but not much. Having had a very good monsoon (rainy season) this
                  year, the Gila country is lush and green now. The goats really
                  thrived on this food, and actually gained weight during the trip.
                  When they are full grown (at about age 3) they will weigh 200-250
                  lb, and will be able to carry about 40 lb each on a trip like this.
                  There are several manufacturers of goat packing equipment. They make
                  little sawbuck pack saddles and panniers. A complete saddle/pannier
                  combo will cost about $200. The gear they need consists of a tarp, a
                  leash for each of them, and a first aid kit. They sleep under the
                  tarp, the leashes allow me to control them when we're near a road or
                  other hazard, and we share the first aid kit.

                  I bought these guys last year in June (for about $70 each), when
                  they were 3 mo old. At that age they were ready to wean, or switch
                  from milk to an adult hay/forage diet. I got them from a dairy. Each
                  year the dairies have lots of little billy goats they just want rid
                  of. Since then I've taken them camping and hiking a lot. At about 7
                  months old I had them castrated by the vet. By that time they were
                  stinking and fighting and I just about couldn't stand them any more.
                  After their "attitude adjustment" procedure, they quit stinking and
                  became mellow good natured guys. I waited that long before having
                  them castrated so their urinary tract equipment would mature as much
                  as possible. This is important because wethers (neutered male goats)
                  can have problems with urinary stones, that can kill them. But for
                  the most part they are very healthy animals. They will live and work
                  for 12-15 years. For packgoats you want goats that are big and
                  athletic. Avoid Nubians. They have a reputation for laziness. Mine
                  are Saanen and Oberhasli. Alpines, Toggenburgs, and La Manchas are
                  also popular.

                  They I have had to learn a lot. Behaving on a leash, hopping in and
                  out of the trailer, trail and camp manners, etc. They need a small
                  shed and a pen or pasture with a GOOD fence. Goats are not easy to
                  contain, and they are very vulnerable to predators, especially dogs.
                  The more you can take them out to forage the better, but if you
                  don't have the time, hay and a little grain will do. They aren't
                  much trouble to keep, about like dogs. A lot less trouble and
                  expense than horses or mules. They stay right with me while hiking,
                  and just quietly hang around camp. If they start making noise
                  there's something wrong (predators, forest fire, sasquach, UFOs,
                  etc). I don't have to worry about them running off. Sometimes I have
                  to zing a pine cone or stick at one when he gets too nosey around
                  the cooking area, tho.

                  I do worry about predators such as mountain lions, coyotes, bears,
                  and wolves. But the boys stay close to me all the time. And if
                  something scares them they come running to me. They are alert in the
                  boondocks, and know they are prey. I put up their tarp near my
                  hammock so they bed down close by. Predators here are hunted (except
                  for wolves), and are wary of people.

                  I transport them in a funky old trailer made from the bed of a
                  pickup truck, with a camper shell on it. The US Forest Service
                  office in this are has all kinds of strict regulations about using
                  pack animals in the wilderness and surrounding national forest.
                  These regulations are focused on keeping horses and mules from
                  destroying meadows where horse people camp all the time. Horses and
                  mules need grass and daily water, so certain areas tend to get
                  overused by them. With the goats I can camp anywhere, the rougher
                  the better. The forest service people I've run into have reacted in
                  various ways. The trail maintenance crews are glad to see them
                  eating stuff along the trails. The ranger in the pickup thought
                  there should be more of them out in the woods thinning out the
                  zillions of little trees that are growing like grass on the hills.
                  All the brush and little trees make for a lot of forest fire fuel
                  during dry weather. The district administrator didn't even come out
                  of her office to talk to me about it. She just told the receptionist
                  to hand me the official policy pamphlet on pack animals, which is
                  written for horses and mules. Typical bureaucracy BS. For anybody
                  who is interested in more packgoat info there's a good book on the
                  subject. "The Packgoat", by John Mionczynzki. There's also a yahoo
                  group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/packgoat/).

                  We were along the northern edge of the wilderness. The roads into
                  this area are long and rough. The trails are poorly maintained,
                  rocky, and vague in places. This is very rough, remote country and
                  the nearest towns are pretty small and far apart. Civilization is
                  pretty sparse. About the only time many people are around is elk
                  season (Sept-Oct). The rest of the year it's almost empty. We took
                  the trail in from Willow Creek (about 30 miles east from Glenwood)
                  and hiked about 8 miles south and east to Clayton Mesa (near Turkey
                  Feather Pass and the Jerky Mountains). Elevation there is about 7500
                  ft. We found later that there were lots more elk closer to the
                  trailhead, where the elevation was 8000-9000 ft. We saw elk, wild
                  turkeys, deer, a bear, and a bobcat. Great trip. Going back soon.

                  Thanks for the tips and other hammock forum info.



                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, N Thomas <norvell1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I am curious as to what supplies you carried for the goats. You
                  mentioned that they foraged, but what type of food or other items
                  did you carry for them? How much weight do you expect them to carry
                  when they fully mature? What type of pack/saddle/whatever did you
                  use for them? Did you transport them out there yourself? Any
                  problems from the park people?
                  >
                  > Nice pics. I am in central Texas and goats are a dime a dozen
                  here. I have pondered starting a herd for such activities, but am
                  curious about the overall effort.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Frank Looper
                  Mark me as one who s happy with the Supershelter. I ve only been down to 50 degrees so far, but when it gets cooler, I ve got evazote foam to stick between the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 2, 2007
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                    Mark me as one who's happy with the Supershelter. I've only been down to 50
                    degrees so far, but when it gets cooler, I've got evazote foam to stick
                    between the OC pad and the hammock. Even just the undercover warmed it up
                    some, without even using the pad. When it gets below 30 down here, I plan on
                    getting a nest or no sniveler to go along with the SS, and I'll have a true
                    4-season setup.

                    Being a warm sleeper--very warm, actually, I expect this to get me down as
                    low as I'm comfortable camping. Last year, I was caught twice in very cold,
                    windy weather. Once on the FHT in December, with 10F temps and high wind and
                    once at Tray Mtn Shelter on the AT in February with near 0F temps and high
                    wind. In both cases I had a 30 degree bag, and though I was uncomfortable, I
                    didn't freeze, and I slept right through the night with no problems.
                    Therefore, I may not be a "normal" case, but I expect a SS and a 3-season
                    underquilt to do me year round. The SS is much lighter than any quilt that
                    I've thought of buying, and I'm thrilled with it. The SS and my UL
                    Backpacker Asym weigh less than my old Exped Asym did by itself, and the
                    comfort level is amazing to me. At 50 degrees last night, I only had a
                    fleece blanket over me and was dressed in shorts and a t-shirt. Way, way
                    cool. :-)

                    Frank

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "tim garner" <slowhike@...>
                    To: <hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 9:04 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Gila Wilderness trip report


                    jeff... i've herd more people say that the hh super shelter did not live
                    up to thier expectations than those that were happy w/ them.
                    under quilts seem to be one of the best solutions.
                    check out http://hammockforums.net for more hammock camping info than you
                    can shake a stick at. ...tim


                    Jeff Ross <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                    Just got back from a week in the Gila Wilderness (SW NM). Hiked in
                    (with packgoats) about 8 miles to friends' elk hunting camp. Very
                    remote, trails faint and rough. Beautiful weather, days 70's, nites
                    40's, a little rain, hunting unsuccessful. Saw some big bull elk,
                    just couldn't get close enough. Saw only 2 other hunters. Spent 7
                    nites in my Hennessy Expedition Asym.

                    What worked:
                    ------------
                    Goats. They are only a year and half old so they can't carry much
                    yet. But they did carry about 30lb (10lb of stuff for them, and 20lb
                    of my stuff) between the 3 of them. Next year they will be able to
                    carry about 40 lb each. That way I can bring in a few more basic
                    essentials (beer, steaks, lawn chairs, etc). They slept under an
                    8x10 tarp, ate weeds, flowers, pine needles, drank from the stream.
                    No problems. I think coyotes got close one nite and I found them
                    sleeping under my hammock the next morning. Otherwise they were in
                    heaven and had a wonderful time.

                    Hammock. Pretty comfy. I'm 6-3, 200 lb and this hammock is just
                    barely big enough. I would like to have a bit more foot room. But
                    all in all, quite comfortable. Sure beats sleeping on the ground.

                    Alcohol stove. Homemade from a couple of cat food cans. Used Walmart
                    91% isopropyl as fuel. Works good.

                    MSR Miniworks water filter. Water was clear and clean looking, but
                    you never can tell. I like this filter because I can clean it when
                    it gets clogged. There are certainly lighter filters, but this one
                    is rugged and easy to maintain.

                    What didn't work:
                    -----------------
                    Hammock rainfly is minimal. I hear their new ones are bigger. I
                    wound up using a 10x10 nylon tarp from Campmore. That worked fine.
                    Now there's plenty of dry room under the hammock for my pack, boots,
                    etc. (even goats).

                    Hammock "undercover" is minimal. It's a very thin layer of foam
                    that's cleverly suspended beneath the hammock. Maybe better than
                    nothing, but not much. I used my big old Thermarest Camprest
                    mattress inside the hammock, under my sleeping bag. Not cold from
                    below any more. It would be nice to find a way to secure this thing
                    inside the hammock so it doesn't slide around tho. I tied a string
                    around the inlet valve and ran that thru the end of the hammock.
                    Thrashing around on it one nite I pulled the inlet valve out of it.
                    Not good. I think I fixed it tho.

                    Sleeping bag. I used a Slumberjack bag containing something
                    called "polar guard" that's rated for 20 degrees. HA! I don't know
                    if other sleeping bag mfgrs ratings are so overstated, but that one
                    sure is. I used my rain jacket as a blanket to cover my feet, and
                    wore pants, two shirts, two pairs of socks. Then I was pretty warm.
                    In freezing weather I would have been cold.

                    Here are a few pics:

                    http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/gilatrailhead.jpg
                    http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/lenwgoats.jpg
                    http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/gilatrip1.jpg
                    http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/claytoncreek.jpg
                    http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee283/gila_dog/stormcomin.jpg




                    Yahoo! Groups Links






                    don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!


                    ---------------------------------
                    Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo!
                    Autos.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Dave Womble
                    Frank, I had always thought of the Super Shelter to be at its best in windy environments because the bottom is made of silnylon. The tradeoff with that since
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 3, 2007
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                      Frank,

                      I had always thought of the Super Shelter to be at its best in windy
                      environments because the bottom is made of silnylon. The tradeoff
                      with that since it is waterproof and it encloses the whole bottom side
                      of the hammock, is that the inside surface of it and any insulation
                      inside it will be a more susceptible to condensation buildup from
                      insensible perspiration. And if you don't handle that well,
                      especially in calm conditions, it can be a nuisance.

                      I recently designed the SnugFit Underquilt which has down insulation
                      and breathable shells for hammocks and I would be concerned about
                      putting it inside a silnylon shell like the Super Shelter. It may work
                      fine for you or you may not like the combination of underquilt and
                      Super Shelter. Starting off with a Super Shelter, I can see where one
                      would think that a underquilt would compliment it in cooler weather as
                      additional insulation neatly tucked inside. But starting off with my
                      SnugFit Underquilt, I would be fearful of complimenting it with a
                      Super Shelter because of the breatheability versus condensation issue
                      as well as down compression issues. Does that make sense... it is a
                      troublesome marriage from an underquilts point of view because an
                      underquilt tries very hard to be breathable enough to avoid
                      condensation buildup and a well designed underquilt avoids down
                      compression issues like the plague. <grin>

                      Dave Womble
                      aka Youngblood 2000
                      designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender, SnugFit Underquilt, and
                      Winter Tarp
                    • Stuhr, Tim
                      The SS is also designed to be a little tighter against the hammock. If you put an UQ between it and the hammock you will compress the down and decrease or
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 3, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The SS is also designed to be a little tighter against the hammock. If
                        you put an UQ between it and the hammock you will compress the down and
                        decrease or completely wipe out its insulation value. I used a JRB Nest
                        on the outside of my SS last winter successfully to 18 degrees but it
                        was a little bit of a pain to get in and out of the hammock

                        Tim (Stoikurt)

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Womble
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:48 AM
                        To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Hammock Camping] Gila Wilderness trip report

                        Frank,

                        I had always thought of the Super Shelter to be at its best in windy
                        environments because the bottom is made of silnylon. The tradeoff
                        with that since it is waterproof and it encloses the whole bottom side
                        of the hammock, is that the inside surface of it and any insulation
                        inside it will be a more susceptible to condensation buildup from
                        insensible perspiration. And if you don't handle that well,
                        especially in calm conditions, it can be a nuisance.

                        I recently designed the SnugFit Underquilt which has down insulation
                        and breathable shells for hammocks and I would be concerned about
                        putting it inside a silnylon shell like the Super Shelter. It may work
                        fine for you or you may not like the combination of underquilt and
                        Super Shelter. Starting off with a Super Shelter, I can see where one
                        would think that a underquilt would compliment it in cooler weather as
                        additional insulation neatly tucked inside. But starting off with my
                        SnugFit Underquilt, I would be fearful of complimenting it with a
                        Super Shelter because of the breatheability versus condensation issue
                        as well as down compression issues. Does that make sense... it is a
                        troublesome marriage from an underquilts point of view because an
                        underquilt tries very hard to be breathable enough to avoid
                        condensation buildup and a well designed underquilt avoids down
                        compression issues like the plague. <grin>

                        Dave Womble
                        aka Youngblood 2000
                        designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender, SnugFit Underquilt, and
                        Winter Tarp






                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Dave Womble
                        Tim, That sounds like a great way to do it and I know Ed Speer uses a vapor barrier at times between his hammock and peapod to get extra warmth. Sounds like
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 3, 2007
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                          Tim,

                          That sounds like a great way to do it and I know Ed Speer uses a vapor
                          barrier at times between his hammock and peapod to get extra warmth.
                          Sounds like your arrangement works about the same.

                          I know what you mean about the conflict with bottom side insulation
                          and bottom entry hammocks, I used one for the first year or so of my
                          hammock camping until I tried Ed's hammock for a few minutes on the
                          1st SEHHA backpacking trip... they were backpacking trips instead of
                          campouts in earlier days. After that I was sold on the top entry
                          approach with a removable bugnet and a decent size rectangular tarp.
                          It is like a different world. I almost look forward to overnight
                          rains as I tend to sleep better.

                          Dave Womble
                          aka Youngblood 2000
                          Designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender, SnugFit Underquilt, and
                          Winter Tarp
                        • Pat
                          that was great sorry I emailed you I should have looked further. after reading that you have peaked my intrest up a bunch now. How do you train them to walk
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 4, 2007
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                            that was great sorry I emailed you I should have looked further.
                            after reading that you have peaked my intrest up a bunch now.
                            How do you train them to walk with you on trail and stay with you at
                            night and not worry about them leaving you high and dry and packing
                            stuff out for your self.




                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
                            <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Neither I, nor the goats, carried any food for them. They did carry
                            > a couple liters of water, but they didn't drink it. I did. They
                            > drank from stream crossings. They ate wild forage (pine needles,
                            oak
                            > leaves, twigs, flowers, weeds, etc, etc). They eat a little grass,
                            > but not much. Having had a very good monsoon (rainy season) this
                            > year, the Gila country is lush and green now. The goats really
                            > thrived on this food, and actually gained weight during the trip.
                            > When they are full grown (at about age 3) they will weigh 200-250
                            > lb, and will be able to carry about 40 lb each on a trip like this.
                            > There are several manufacturers of goat packing equipment. They
                            make
                            > little sawbuck pack saddles and panniers. A complete saddle/pannier
                            > combo will cost about $200. The gear they need consists of a tarp,
                            a
                            > leash for each of them, and a first aid kit. They sleep under the
                            > tarp, the leashes allow me to control them when we're near a road
                            or
                            > other hazard, and we share the first aid kit.
                            >
                            > I bought these guys last year in June (for about $70 each), when
                            > they were 3 mo old. At that age they were ready to wean, or switch
                            > from milk to an adult hay/forage diet. I got them from a dairy.
                            Each
                            > year the dairies have lots of little billy goats they just want rid
                            > of. Since then I've taken them camping and hiking a lot. At about 7
                            > months old I had them castrated by the vet. By that time they were
                            > stinking and fighting and I just about couldn't stand them any
                            more.
                            > After their "attitude adjustment" procedure, they quit stinking and
                            > became mellow good natured guys. I waited that long before having
                            > them castrated so their urinary tract equipment would mature as
                            much
                            > as possible. This is important because wethers (neutered male
                            goats)
                            > can have problems with urinary stones, that can kill them. But for
                            > the most part they are very healthy animals. They will live and
                            work
                            > for 12-15 years. For packgoats you want goats that are big and
                            > athletic. Avoid Nubians. They have a reputation for laziness. Mine
                            > are Saanen and Oberhasli. Alpines, Toggenburgs, and La Manchas are
                            > also popular.
                            >
                            > They I have had to learn a lot. Behaving on a leash, hopping in and
                            > out of the trailer, trail and camp manners, etc. They need a small
                            > shed and a pen or pasture with a GOOD fence. Goats are not easy to
                            > contain, and they are very vulnerable to predators, especially
                            dogs.
                            > The more you can take them out to forage the better, but if you
                            > don't have the time, hay and a little grain will do. They aren't
                            > much trouble to keep, about like dogs. A lot less trouble and
                            > expense than horses or mules. They stay right with me while hiking,
                            > and just quietly hang around camp. If they start making noise
                            > there's something wrong (predators, forest fire, sasquach, UFOs,
                            > etc). I don't have to worry about them running off. Sometimes I
                            have
                            > to zing a pine cone or stick at one when he gets too nosey around
                            > the cooking area, tho.
                            >
                            > I do worry about predators such as mountain lions, coyotes, bears,
                            > and wolves. But the boys stay close to me all the time. And if
                            > something scares them they come running to me. They are alert in
                            the
                            > boondocks, and know they are prey. I put up their tarp near my
                            > hammock so they bed down close by. Predators here are hunted
                            (except
                            > for wolves), and are wary of people.
                            >
                            > I transport them in a funky old trailer made from the bed of a
                            > pickup truck, with a camper shell on it. The US Forest Service
                            > office in this are has all kinds of strict regulations about using
                            > pack animals in the wilderness and surrounding national forest.
                            > These regulations are focused on keeping horses and mules from
                            > destroying meadows where horse people camp all the time. Horses and
                            > mules need grass and daily water, so certain areas tend to get
                            > overused by them. With the goats I can camp anywhere, the rougher
                            > the better. The forest service people I've run into have reacted in
                            > various ways. The trail maintenance crews are glad to see them
                            > eating stuff along the trails. The ranger in the pickup thought
                            > there should be more of them out in the woods thinning out the
                            > zillions of little trees that are growing like grass on the hills.
                            > All the brush and little trees make for a lot of forest fire fuel
                            > during dry weather. The district administrator didn't even come out
                            > of her office to talk to me about it. She just told the
                            receptionist
                            > to hand me the official policy pamphlet on pack animals, which is
                            > written for horses and mules. Typical bureaucracy BS. For anybody
                            > who is interested in more packgoat info there's a good book on the
                            > subject. "The Packgoat", by John Mionczynzki. There's also a yahoo
                            > group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/packgoat/).
                            >
                            > We were along the northern edge of the wilderness. The roads into
                            > this area are long and rough. The trails are poorly maintained,
                            > rocky, and vague in places. This is very rough, remote country and
                            > the nearest towns are pretty small and far apart. Civilization is
                            > pretty sparse. About the only time many people are around is elk
                            > season (Sept-Oct). The rest of the year it's almost empty. We took
                            > the trail in from Willow Creek (about 30 miles east from Glenwood)
                            > and hiked about 8 miles south and east to Clayton Mesa (near Turkey
                            > Feather Pass and the Jerky Mountains). Elevation there is about
                            7500
                            > ft. We found later that there were lots more elk closer to the
                            > trailhead, where the elevation was 8000-9000 ft. We saw elk, wild
                            > turkeys, deer, a bear, and a bobcat. Great trip. Going back soon.
                            >
                            > Thanks for the tips and other hammock forum info.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, N Thomas <norvell1@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I am curious as to what supplies you carried for the goats. You
                            > mentioned that they foraged, but what type of food or other items
                            > did you carry for them? How much weight do you expect them to
                            carry
                            > when they fully mature? What type of pack/saddle/whatever did you
                            > use for them? Did you transport them out there yourself? Any
                            > problems from the park people?
                            > >
                            > > Nice pics. I am in central Texas and goats are a dime a dozen
                            > here. I have pondered starting a herd for such activities, but am
                            > curious about the overall effort.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ---------------------------------
                            > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                          • Steve Bennett
                            I remember when they were filming Broke Back Mountain up in Canda that there was an issue with having sheep up on the mountain as there was concern that they
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 4, 2007
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                              I remember when they were filming Broke Back Mountain up in Canda
                              that there was an issue with having sheep up on the mountain as there
                              was concern that they could pass some disease on to the indigenous
                              animals in the area.

                              I am not sure if they were concerned about direct contact with the
                              sheep or wether it was something that was passed through their feces
                              but I seem to recall they had to keep the sheep well contained and
                              possibly had to clean up after them.

                              Have you hear anything about this and do you know if it would also
                              apply to goats?

                              >
                              > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
                              > <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Neither I, nor the goats, carried any food for them. They did carry
                              > > a couple liters of water, but they didn't drink it. I did. They
                              > > drank from stream crossings. They ate wild forage (pine needles,
                              > oak
                              > > leaves, twigs, flowers, weeds, etc, etc). They eat a little grass,
                              > > but not much. Having had a very good monsoon (rainy season) this
                              > > year, the Gila country is lush and green now. The goats really
                              > > thrived on this food, and actually gained weight during the trip.
                              > > When they are full grown (at about age 3) they will weigh 200-250
                              > > lb, and will be able to carry about 40 lb each on a trip like this.
                              > > There are several manufacturers of goat packing equipment. They
                              > make
                              > > little sawbuck pack saddles and panniers. A complete saddle/pannier
                              > > combo will cost about $200. The gear they need consists of a tarp,
                              > a
                              > > leash for each of them, and a first aid kit. They sleep under the
                              > > tarp, the leashes allow me to control them when we're near a road
                              > or
                              > > other hazard, and we share the first aid kit.
                              > >
                              > > I bought these guys last year in June (for about $70 each), when
                              > > they were 3 mo old. At that age they were ready to wean, or switch
                              > > from milk to an adult hay/forage diet. I got them from a dairy.
                              > Each
                              > > year the dairies have lots of little billy goats they just want rid
                              > > of. Since then I've taken them camping and hiking a lot. At about 7
                              > > months old I had them castrated by the vet. By that time they were
                              > > stinking and fighting and I just about couldn't stand them any
                              > more.
                              > > After their "attitude adjustment" procedure, they quit stinking and
                              > > became mellow good natured guys. I waited that long before having
                              > > them castrated so their urinary tract equipment would mature as
                              > much
                              > > as possible. This is important because wethers (neutered male
                              > goats)
                              > > can have problems with urinary stones, that can kill them. But for
                              > > the most part they are very healthy animals. They will live and
                              > work
                              > > for 12-15 years. For packgoats you want goats that are big and
                              > > athletic. Avoid Nubians. They have a reputation for laziness. Mine
                              > > are Saanen and Oberhasli. Alpines, Toggenburgs, and La Manchas are
                              > > also popular.
                              > >
                              > > They I have had to learn a lot. Behaving on a leash, hopping in and
                              > > out of the trailer, trail and camp manners, etc. They need a small
                              > > shed and a pen or pasture with a GOOD fence. Goats are not easy to
                              > > contain, and they are very vulnerable to predators, especially
                              > dogs.
                              > > The more you can take them out to forage the better, but if you
                              > > don't have the time, hay and a little grain will do. They aren't
                              > > much trouble to keep, about like dogs. A lot less trouble and
                              > > expense than horses or mules. They stay right with me while hiking,
                              > > and just quietly hang around camp. If they start making noise
                              > > there's something wrong (predators, forest fire, sasquach, UFOs,
                              > > etc). I don't have to worry about them running off. Sometimes I
                              > have
                              > > to zing a pine cone or stick at one when he gets too nosey around
                              > > the cooking area, tho.
                              > >
                              > > I do worry about predators such as mountain lions, coyotes, bears,
                              > > and wolves. But the boys stay close to me all the time. And if
                              > > something scares them they come running to me. They are alert in
                              > the
                              > > boondocks, and know they are prey. I put up their tarp near my
                              > > hammock so they bed down close by. Predators here are hunted
                              > (except
                              > > for wolves), and are wary of people.
                              > >
                              > > I transport them in a funky old trailer made from the bed of a
                              > > pickup truck, with a camper shell on it. The US Forest Service
                              > > office in this are has all kinds of strict regulations about using
                              > > pack animals in the wilderness and surrounding national forest.
                              > > These regulations are focused on keeping horses and mules from
                              > > destroying meadows where horse people camp all the time. Horses and
                              > > mules need grass and daily water, so certain areas tend to get
                              > > overused by them. With the goats I can camp anywhere, the rougher
                              > > the better. The forest service people I've run into have reacted in
                              > > various ways. The trail maintenance crews are glad to see them
                              > > eating stuff along the trails. The ranger in the pickup thought
                              > > there should be more of them out in the woods thinning out the
                              > > zillions of little trees that are growing like grass on the hills.
                              > > All the brush and little trees make for a lot of forest fire fuel
                              > > during dry weather. The district administrator didn't even come out
                              > > of her office to talk to me about it. She just told the
                              > receptionist
                              > > to hand me the official policy pamphlet on pack animals, which is
                              > > written for horses and mules. Typical bureaucracy BS. For anybody
                              > > who is interested in more packgoat info there's a good book on the
                              > > subject. "The Packgoat", by John Mionczynzki. There's also a yahoo
                              > > group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/packgoat/).
                              > >
                              > > We were along the northern edge of the wilderness. The roads into
                              > > this area are long and rough. The trails are poorly maintained,
                              > > rocky, and vague in places. This is very rough, remote country and
                              > > the nearest towns are pretty small and far apart. Civilization is
                              > > pretty sparse. About the only time many people are around is elk
                              > > season (Sept-Oct). The rest of the year it's almost empty. We took
                              > > the trail in from Willow Creek (about 30 miles east from Glenwood)
                              > > and hiked about 8 miles south and east to Clayton Mesa (near Turkey
                              > > Feather Pass and the Jerky Mountains). Elevation there is about
                              > 7500
                              > > ft. We found later that there were lots more elk closer to the
                              > > trailhead, where the elevation was 8000-9000 ft. We saw elk, wild
                              > > turkeys, deer, a bear, and a bobcat. Great trip. Going back soon.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for the tips and other hammock forum info.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, N Thomas <norvell1@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I am curious as to what supplies you carried for the goats. You
                              > > mentioned that they foraged, but what type of food or other items
                              > > did you carry for them? How much weight do you expect them to
                              > carry
                              > > when they fully mature? What type of pack/saddle/whatever did you
                              > > use for them? Did you transport them out there yourself? Any
                              > > problems from the park people?
                              > > >
                              > > > Nice pics. I am in central Texas and goats are a dime a dozen
                              > > here. I have pondered starting a herd for such activities, but am
                              > > curious about the overall effort.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ---------------------------------
                              > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Rat
                              ... carry ... Hey Jeff, good to see another Goat Packer on the hammock forums. I have used goats as pack animals for years hunting Elk in Colorado. I have a
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 16, 2007
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                                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
                                <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Neither I, nor the goats, carried any food for them. They did
                                carry
                                > a couple liters of water,

                                Hey Jeff, good to see another Goat Packer on the hammock forums. I
                                have used goats as pack animals for years hunting Elk in Colorado. I
                                have a brother and sister pair of Nubians, tweedle-dee and tweedle-
                                dum, dum is a wether but not dehorned. They are getting a little
                                long in the tooth now, over ten years old, but still going strong.
                                They live in Colorado with a friend of mine, who I hunt with, he
                                gets a lot more use out of them then I would in Texas. They have
                                kived with him for several years now.

                                I have never had any issues with mine being lazy, but I have heard
                                of it as well with Nubians. I bought mine from a ranch that
                                specializes in packgoats tho. They can be loud tho, Nubians are very
                                vocal, especially if I leave them at camp for a hunt.

                                I always pitch their tarp close to me so they can get under the
                                hammock if they want to. Several nights they have woke me up kinda
                                freaked out. I found bear tracks the next morning one time, but
                                nothing on the others, I figured it was some predator out and about,
                                but we have always been safe.

                                I don't know if you have ever packed out Elk meat before, if you
                                have then you know how hard it is, the endless trips back to the
                                forest service road. That is where your kids will shine for ya, I
                                can't tell you how much of a difference it makes.

                                I will proly start looking for a new pair when I get home in Nov.
                                Maybe some Toggs this time. My kids are only about 210 pounds, but
                                they can carry 40-50 pounds all day with judicious rest stops. They
                                rarely do, unless we get an Elk.

                                One of these days I need to get back into Gila, I practically grew
                                up there, but haven't been back since high school.

                                Sounds like you are learning hammocking and goat packing at the same
                                time. Sounds like fun:) Just wait until they learn to untie the
                                panier straps!

                                Rat
                              • Jeff Ross
                                Hi Rat. So far I ve had no predator problems except domestic dogs on the trails. I had to bash one with my walking stick (a good reason to carry a real stick,
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 16, 2007
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                                  Hi Rat. So far I've had no predator problems except domestic dogs on
                                  the trails. I had to bash one with my walking stick (a good reason to
                                  carry a real stick, not a fancy aluminum one). I worry more about
                                  wolves than anything in the Gila country. They aren't afraid of
                                  people, will attack dogs, and my goats would be very attractive to
                                  them. Mountain lions are also a concern, but they avoid people.

                                  If you decide to get new packgoats here's a link to a lady in CO who
                                  raises and sells packgoats. She knows her stuff and her animals are
                                  first rate.

                                  http://huffakerfarms.homestead.com/soap2.html
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