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Re: [Hammock Camping] Re: Bridge Hammock ...is it cumfortable?

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  • Nancye Eidson
    First time post here --- I have been studying hammock systems with mild interest since the spring when I alerted to them through the AT journals. This bridge
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 23, 2007
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      First time post here ---

      I have been studying hammock systems with mild interest since the
      spring when I alerted to
      them through the AT journals. This bridge hammock idea has taken my
      interest
      to a new level, and made me glad I did not make a purchase plunge
      earlier.

      Please, keep all the techy talk as well as the comparisons and
      performance reports
      coming. We can pick and choose what we want to read. The pictures are
      a huge
      help. The more, the merrier.

      Thank you to all the developers who share so freely, and with such
      detailed reporting.
      I especially enjoy the discussions that make it clear for which
      applications the discussed
      system alterations are best suited. My thinking was originally very
      limited. Now there
      are so many ideas.

      Joyfully, Nancye in Kentucky

      On Sep 23, 2007, at 8:33 AM, Dave Womble wrote:

      > GrizzlyAdams,
      >
      > I couldn't get the photo link to work this morning but I think I have
      > seen the photos you refer too. You and I could probably get lost in
      > technical talk but most folks don't want to hear that, they just want
      > to know how it performs and compares relative to something they are
      > familiar with.
      >
    • terry_and_pearl
      ... Dave - I m going to chime in here. It s been a while since I logged into the Yahoo hammock forums, so I m a little late to the game here. First, I ve made
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 23, 2007
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        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Womble" <dpwomble@...> wrote:
        >
        > Scott,
        >
        > I am old engineer that has done design work and conducted design
        > reviews. I am going to play the devil's advocate on this for a moment
        > and I hope you understand that technique and don't take it as a
        > personal insult, it is not intended to be that.
        >
        > One thing I see right off is how the term 'flat' is being used. Cots
        > with fabric beds are flat and they don't have shoulder squeeze issues.
        > However, they put a lot of stress on the fabric and the frame to do
        > that. I believe that the term 'flat' is being misused to describe a
        > straight spline with the bridge hammock, as opposed to the traditional
        > banana shape associated with smallish hammocks. When I look at this
        > photo http://tinyurl.com/ypr3br I don't see flat-- I see a straight
        > spline with some shoulder squeeze and a fabric bed that stretches
        > enough to follow the curves of your body such that major pressure
        > points are avoided.


        Dave - I'm going to chime in here. It's been a while since I logged
        into the Yahoo hammock forums, so I'm a little late to the game here.

        First, I've made a Bridge Hammock following the directions from the OZ
        site. Nothing fancy to make. Just a flexible fiberglass rod, lay the
        measurements specified there, out on the ripstop, bend the rod to
        match, mark out the sides, cut and sew in the 1/2" webbing. simple.
        I've made HH style hammocks - this is much easier.

        My Bridge Hammock is 80" long an 60" wide at the widest points.

        My DIY HH style, is a Safari clone. Very large and Very comfortable.
        Easy to get really far onto the diagonal and almost as "flat" as any
        hammock I've used. Now as you say the term "flat" can be misleading.
        By flat I mean no banana shape. The banana shape is liked by some, but
        for me personally, it is pure torture. Especially for my knees.

        What I was looking for in the Bridge Hammock is "flat" as in no banana
        shape and subsequent backwards bending of the knees. "flat" from head
        to foot as in my memory foam mattress.



        >
        > I don't associate being flat as an absolute indicator of being
        > comfortable, I think you want to be reasonably flat and have support
        > that contours to the shape of your body without subjecting you to
        > uncomfortable pressure points. I can make two large hammocks using
        > the same dimensions and construction techniques, and if I use
        > materials such that one has a reasonable amount of stretch in the
        > fabric bed and the other has negligible stretch, the one with a
        > reasonable amount of stretch will be more comfortable than the one
        > with negligible stretch... and the one with negligible stretch may be
        > uncomfortable. This is often the case with nylon fabric beds versus
        > polyester or canvas fabric beds. Also, I can make two different
        > hammocks out of the same reasonably stretchy fabric and if one is
        > smallish and the other is large, the smallish one will not be as
        > comfortable as the large one... and the smallish one may be
        > uncomfortable.
        >
        > Being flat in itself does not guarantee being comfortable. The
        > advantage I see for a hammock being flat, like a cot, is for stomach
        > sleeping and it has been a while since I have slept on a cot. But if
        > my memory is correct the cots I slept on were made out of canvas and
        > weren't all that comfortable on their own. That wasn't because they
        > weren't flat, it was because they are made out of a very strong, low
        > stretch canvas which caused uncomfortable pressure points and they
        > were typically too narrow to allow for a wide range of sleeping
        > positions. Seems like we had to use some type of cushion to get
        > comfortable on those cots. As far as stomach sleeping goes, I am
        > afraid that these days I have a stomach that gets in the way of that
        > <grin>. Besides, the floors of the shelters along the AT are flat and
        > I assure you they aren't that comfortable for me unless I have about 3
        > inches or more of cushioning to relieve pressure points... the same
        > can be said for the plywood berths I have used in hostels or
        > live-aboard dive boats.

        As you point out being flat is not necessarily comfortable. I used a
        flat hard mattress for years. As I got older, it got harder. The
        pressure points just got to be too much. Sold the mattress, bought
        some Qualtex foam (5" thick) and some memory foam (3" thick). Laid the
        latter on top of the former. Comfortable with no pressure points -
        like you say it conforms.

        So that is one of the points that determines comfort. Having made my
        Bridge Hammock out of 1.9 oz ripstop, it conforms - no pressure points.

        As far as your other points and trying to compare the Bridge Hammock
        to a cot or the floor of a shelter. The comparison doesn't make any
        sense to me. I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish
        with such comparisons. First the Bridge Hammock is made of whatever
        fabric you decide, you can use the heavy cotton used in the cot if you
        like, but I wouldn't advise it. The same fabric you use for your other
        DIY hammocks would be much better. As for comparing to the floor of a
        shelter, I don't advise making the Bridge Hammock out of wood either.
        As I said, the point of the comparisons escapes me.

        Now as far as "flat". As David and Scott replied, there are 2 kinds of
        flat for a hammock: 1. head to foot, and 2. shoulder to shoulder.

        I installed a ridge line on my Bridge Hammock. I played around with
        the ridge line length a fair amount right off the bat. Learned one
        very important thing about the ridge line. It affects only the head to
        foot "flatness". With the ridge line too short, you get a banana
        shape. With the ridge line too long, you get an inverted banana - that
        fixes the knee problem, but adds problems with respect to the back.
        Fiddling with the ridge line to get a length that is not too long and
        not too short, I get a ridge line that lays "flat" head to foot, i.e.,
        my head, hips and feet are about as close to the same level as when I
        lay on my memory foam mattress. Getting the "right length" for the
        ridge line is not real critical in that you don't have to get it right
        within fractions of an inch. You can vary the length over a few inches
        with no noticeable effect.

        This is one of the aspects of the Bridge Hammock that has endeared it
        to me - it is very adjustable. For many of my hammocks, usability of
        the hammock is severely limited once you have decided on the fabric
        length and width and then the type of whipping you use. To adjust many
        aspects of those hammocks, you have to rewhip or cut new fabric.

        I have found that with my Bridge Hammock, by adjusting the ridge line
        and one or both of the spreaders, I can affect many aspects of the
        comfort of the hammock.

        And that brings me to the second aspect of "flatness" that both David
        and Scott have commented about: shoulder squeeze. This is one aspect
        of the Bridge Hammock that may keep most away from using one. To
        reduce shoulder squeeze, longer spreader bars are needed on the head
        side/end of the hammock thus laying the fabric out "flatter" giving
        the shoulders more room. There are two trade-offs with increasing the
        spreader bar length at the head of the Bridge hammock: 1. compression
        forces on the spreader bar, and 2. stability.

        The longer spreader bar, the greater the compression force. David has
        been investigating some techniques for reducing the force. I attacked
        the problem from another angle, i.e., methods for using my trekking
        poles and keeping the forces entirely or almost entirely on the axis
        of the pole. I have succeeded in doing this. I can use my trekking
        pols and they are rock solid.

        The only remaining problem to be solved for the compression force was
        that the locking mechanism on my poles (Stoney Point poles) was not
        sufficient to hold at the spreader bar length I wanted. This problem
        was easily and quickly solved by the use of poplar dowels inserted in
        the poles to limit the amount they could collapse. Even with the
        dowels, the poles, fully collapsed, are shorter than what I use for
        trekking poles. I collapse fully for spreader bars and extend for
        trekking poles. The dowels add about 2, maybe 3 oz per pole. I haven't
        noticed any effects of the added weight in their use as trekking poles.

        The second problem with longer spreader bars is stability. As the
        spreader bars get longer, the hammock becomes more unstable. Think of
        that cot you used, tie suspension ropes to the 4 corners, join the 2
        coming from one end and the 2 from the other end. Now suspend the cot
        from trees at those 2 points where the ropes are joined. I think you
        can imagine trying to use such a platform. Very unstable. The
        suspended cot is an extreme form of the Bridge Hammock and not a very
        usable form.

        There are only 2 solutions for this that I am aware of: 1. limit
        spreader bar length, or 2. redesign the hammock. David and Scott
        probably have other solutions, but I know nothing of those.

        With solution 2, you no longer have a Bridge Hammock.

        I opted for solution 1.

        I found that since shoulder squeeze is not a problem at the foot of
        the hammock, I could use a much shorter spreader bar there and use the
        longer spreader bar at the head of the hammock.

        For my use, a spreader bar length of 105 cm at the head of the hammock
        and 80 cm at the foot gives me plenty of room for my shoulders and the
        shorter bar at the foot gives more stability. Enough stability that I
        have no problem sitting up in the hammock, entering the hammock or
        exiting the hammock.

        The solution to the compression forces on the spreader bars is to
        recognize where the compression forces are coming from. There are 2
        sources of compression on the spreader bars: 1. compression from the
        suspension lines, and 2. compression from the webbing used to support
        the Bridge Hammock. Measuring and computing force 1 is simple. The
        equation is well known and simple to derive. Measuring and computing
        force 2 is slightly more complicated and a close approximation is made.

        There is not much that can be done to reduce force 2. You simply have
        to live with whatever it is for your dimensions and body weight.

        Thankfully, for all the situations I have measured and computed on my
        Bridge Hammock, the compression force due to the webbing is on the
        order of 60 lbs or less total on the bar. This is a fairly small force
        when considering the other forces acting on a hammock.

        A lot can be done for force 1. I assume from correspondence with
        David, that that seems to be the main thrust of what David and Scott
        are currently doing. Since I solved that problem for my Bridge Hammock
        as I described above, I have moved on to other concerns, mainly bug
        netting, under quilts and pads, etc.

        Anybody that uses or makes a Bridge Hammock should probably play
        around with the 3 of the adjustments available:

        1. ridge line length. If a ridge line is used, the user should vary
        the ridge line over a wide margin and try the banana, inverted banana
        and "flat" shapes available. If no ridge line is used, then contact
        David or Scott and get more information on their endeavors to reduce
        the compression forces by varying the suspension line lengths and how
        they are attached to the trees, etc. All of this will affect not only
        the comfort of the hammock, but ease of hanging and available hanging
        sites. I know very little to nothing about what David and Scott are
        doing here. I use a ridge line and would not make or use a Bridge
        Hammock without one. Just my personal preference.

        2. Suspension line length. Even if you are using a ridge line, the
        length of the suspension "triangle" can be varied over a large range.
        The shorter the suspension lines, the greater the force on the
        spreader bars and the lower the ridge line will be and consequently
        the lower you will be able to hang from the trees. The longer the
        suspension lines, the lower the compression forces on the spreader
        bars and the higher you will have to hang.

        3. spreader bar length. Find a way to vary the spreader bar length and
        find a length that is comfortable for you as regards shoulder squeeze.
        The length of the bar aT the foot of the hammock should probably be
        made as short as comfortable for your feet to increase stability. I
        can supply the method I used for experimenting with spreader bar
        length. It made varying the length easy. David developed another
        method. You could devise your own method. It is easy to do.

        That covers most of the technical aspects I have learned about the
        Bridge Hammock to date.

        As far as usability, and this is purely my own opinion and could
        radically differ from yours or that of others.

        The Bridge Hammock is simply the most comfortable hammock I have ever
        used and that includes my Safari clone, in both the bottom loading and
        top loading modes for that hammock.

        The only other hammock I found to be nearly as comfortable was a Mayan
        hammock and laying totally on the diagonal. That is probably the only
        hammock which compares since, in the Bridge Hammock, you are laying
        totally on the diagonal.

        As far as comparing the Bridge to, say my Safari clone, in regards to
        weight. The fabric alone in my Safari clone was over 15 oz. The fabric
        in the Bridge Hammock is slightly over 5 oz - 1/3 the weight in the
        fabric alone. I do not count the spreader bars in the weight of the
        hammock since I am using my trekking poles and they are with me even
        when using any other hammock. The only other major weight component is
        the 1/2" webbing used and that comes to slightly under 3 oz. I use 2.8
        mm Spyderline for my suspension, add maybe another 3 oz at
        approximately 0.07 oz/ft (slightly under by my measurement). The
        Bridge Hammock beats the Safari clone by many oz and is as comfortable
        for me. It is also much lighter than my Hennessy ULBA and much, much,
        much, much more comfortable.

        Another aspect to the Bridge that I really like is the ease of
        designing and making accessories: under quilts and pads, bug netting,
        over covers, under covers, gear storage to name a few.

        Due to the shape of the Bridge hammock, i.e., the bottom of the
        hammock from head to foot is, for all practical purposes, a straight
        line - no banana. This makes fitting an under quilt a trivial matter.
        I have personally used a simple rectangular Poncho Liner (80" x 60")
        as an under quilt. Fits like a glove. Can be pulled up tight with no
        air gaps or pockets and no compression of the insulation. Over my
        head, I added 2 simple braided loops to the edge of the poncho liner
        and using the lace tie out supplied with the liner, I can tie it and
        have the liner blocking any air infiltration above my head. I can lay
        my Gossamer Gear 3/8" thick Thinlight pads on top of the liner (1
        shoulder to foot, the second cut down and laid perpendicular at the
        top for my torso) and they stay fixed in place and give me 3/4" thick
        insulation for my torso. Being on top of the liner, they fit snug up
        against my body with no compression effect of either the pads or the
        liner.

        So designing and making under quilts is a trivial exercise, a simple
        rectangle fits like a glove. Trying to fit the banana shape of other
        hammocks just isn't necessary.

        I have found the bug netting just as easy to design and make. My bug
        netting uses a simple irregular, but symmetric, octahedron. Add two
        pieces for over the head and below the feet, some small diameter shock
        cord and it's done - no zippers or Velcro.

        Gear storage inside the hammock is also trivial - a simple rectangle,
        tied to the foot corners and suspended from the ridge line. More than
        enough for top quilts, clothes and other items. Doesn't subtract from
        the usable space inside the hammock.

        Adjustable undercovers, as Scott mentioned (and by the way he invented
        that brilliant idea) are easy to make and use.

        You asked about getting into the hammock and exiting. I find it to be
        extremely easy. Since I use a ridge line, I hang the same height as I
        do for any of my top loading hammocks with a ridge line. To get in, I
        simple grasp the near edge of the webbing in the middle to stabilize,
        sit down, swing my legs into the hammock and lay down. Reverse to get
        out. The same procedure I use for any top loading hammock.

        So is the Bridge Hammock the perfect hammock - darn near perfect for me.

        Would it be perfect for you or somebody else??

        Each person would have to answer that question for themselves.

        But rather than trying to answer that question by analyzing my use or
        that of Scott or David and trying to critique it, it would be far
        easier to simply make one for yourself. You can follow David's
        directions or the directions from the original OZ site. Using a
        flexible pole of fiberglass, carbon fiber or AL to lay out the curve
        is extremely easy. David used a fancy computer generated curve
        customized for his body and which I believe can be customized for
        others. I do not happen to think getting that fancy is really
        necessary unless you want to. The basic dimensions of the original are
        very usable and David's ended up being very close to those dimension
        if I remember correctly. The only change I made to the original was to
        extend the length head to foot.

        So have at it.

        Make a Bridge Hammock.

        Decide from actually using one if it fits your needs - or not.

        Then you can compare your Bridge Hammock to another Bridge Hammock, or
        to a Speer or to a Hennessy or to a Claytor or a Treklight or ....
        whatever. Those comparisons make sense to me. Trying to compare to
        shelter floors just doesn't make sense to me :-)


        >
        > Being comfortable is ... well it is being comfortable and that has
        > more to do with relieving pressure points than it has to do with
        > being flat. That is not to say that you can't be comfortable with a
        > straight spline or being flat, that is saying that there is more to it
        > than that.
        >
        > For what it's worth, back a few years ago when I was looking through
        > patents related to hammocks, I came across one where they patented
        > using an inflatable pad that was flat on the top side but had the
        > complimentary shape of a hammock on the bottom side to flatten out the
        > lay of a hammock. It looked interesting but I don't recall if they
        > addressed the severe stability issue that could cause since it raises
        > you quite a bit, my large 4+ inch thick DAM raises me a few inches and
        > it does affect the stability.
        >
        > I also recall a patent for having expanded sections on the hammock bed
        > at the feet and maybe the head area as well, with the claim that these
        > allowed your feet (and head?) to drop and thus flatten your lay so
        > that you had a straight spline. Again, with this patent I'm not sure
        > they built a working prototype or that it is actually something worth
        > doing. With comfortable backpacking hammocks I get a similar effect
        > by laying on a diagonal and taking advantage of the extra stretch
        > along the bias of the fabric... I notice my feet drop quite a bit and
        > is one reason that I exaggerate how much I raise the foot end of my
        > hammock.
        >
        > Dave Womble
        > aka Youngblood 2000
        > designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender and SnugFit Underquilt
        >
      • terry_and_pearl
        ... Dave, I responded to your question about entry/exit to the Bridge Hammock. As I said there, for me at least, it has turned out to be a non-issue. I was
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 23, 2007
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          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Womble" <dpwomble@...> wrote:
          >
          > GrizzlyAdams,
          >
          > I couldn't get the photo link to work this morning but I think I have
          > seen the photos you refer too. You and I could probably get lost in
          > technical talk but most folks don't want to hear that, they just want
          > to know how it performs and compares relative to something they are
          > familiar with.
          >
          > Getting into and out of hammocks is a tricky proposition with all
          > hammocks and is something I get concerned with from time to time. You
          > have to pay attention to what you are doing, particularly the novice
          > hammock user or someone using underquilts, peapods or most any other
          > insulation as they do add some level of complexity to the process.
          > The narrow mid section that one would presumably first sit in on your
          > bridge hammock is the first thing I notice. I have noticed that
          > narrow conventional hammocks are more difficult to safely enter that
          > wider conventional hammocks. Do the spreader bars somewhat opening up
          > the hammock bed help with that?

          Dave, I responded to your question about entry/exit to the Bridge
          Hammock. As I said there, for me at least, it has turned out to be a
          non-issue. I was concerned when I started. And a little confused. Do I
          get over the webbing or duck under the spreader bar or ...???

          After making the Hammock, getting in and out is as natural as any top
          loader I have used. Since I enter/exit at the mid-point, the spreader
          bars are far away and don't really enter into the procedure.

          The narrow mid-section, doesn't really matter. I find it enjoyable in
          fact.

          I can sit cross-wise, i.e., webbing to webbing, in the hammock with my
          back against one webbing and my legs hanging out over the opposite
          webbing. I can sit up, almost upright, or I can lean way back. I find
          it rather comfortable. I can also get entirely in the hammock, and sit
          up with my legs laid out in front of me. Scott and David developed
          methods for using the Hammock as a lounger, kind of like a Laz-y-Boy.
          Both quite inventive.

          >
          > And speaking of those wide spreader bars, whether they are dedicated
          > poles or hiking poles, they present new issues besides the torque and
          > tension on them and the hammock bed. I have used similar struts to
          > experiment with hammocks and to attach two hammocks side by side to
          > the same trees (http://tinyurl.com/2o7qu5). I don't believe the ones
          > I used would be as high as the ones you have on your bridge hammock
          > and I don't think they were as long. But I worried they were
          > something that could potentially be a problem with tarp coverage,
          > possibly snagging someone walking nearby, or poke a tarp when the
          > hammocks swing or are pushed to one side. Certainly that is not a
          > particularly difficult technical issue to resolve, but it is different
          > than the customary backpacking hammocks.

          Yes tarp coverage and interference between the pole ends and the tarp
          can be an issue. But I find the issue can be managed by how you hang
          the tarp and how high you hang the hammock. As for the spreader ends
          interfering with movement under the tarp. Again I have found it to be
          an issue that goes away with learning to use the hammock.

          When you moved from the ground to a hammock you had to learn new
          habits and ways of doing things. The same is true for the Bridge
          Hammock, just not as big a learning curve. For me, I set up the
          hammock and tarp. I then have my trekking poles setup as spreader
          bars. I then remove the poles with one end still attached to the
          hammock. The hammock then collapses down - no spread. Moving around
          under the tarp is then easier than with a Hennessy and the side tie
          outs. Maybe even easier than a Speer since the Bridge collapses down
          very narrow. Narrower than any Speer I have seen. Inserting the
          trekking poles as spreader bars just before entering for the night is
          accomplished in a matter of seconds. Night time calls just reverse the
          procedure. Inserting the trekking poles and taking them out is
          accomplished in seconds and with a little practice, it becomes second
          nature. At least it has worked that way for me.

          As far as the ends of the trekking poles tearing the tarp. This again
          was something I was concerned about also. It has turned out to be
          another non-issue for me. The carbide tips of my poles are covered
          with plastic which enables them to be used as spreader bars and the
          other end has a 1/2" diameter AL cylinder with rounded edges, but not
          pointed. Could the tarp material rub and eventually wear through? Yes,
          but the situation can be managed by learning slightly different
          techniques than those used with a conventional hammock.


          >
          > The bridge hammock has some significant differences from what folks
          > are use to and I would think most folks are concerned with the
          > differences-- the tradeoffs if you will, both the positive ones, the
          > negative ones, and even the ones that are six of one versus half a
          > dozen of the other. Something laid out simple and brief to help them
          > understand just what it is and what it can do for them versus what it
          > isn't and what it can't do for them. And I know that is sometimes
          > difficult for technical folks involved in design specifics to do-- we
          > often have a hard time seeing the forest because of all the specific
          > trees we see.

          Yes - using the Bridge Hammock is different from a conventional
          hammock. Not as different as moving from a tent to a hammock, but
          different. For anybody that made the transition from the tent to a
          hammock, learning to use a Bridge should be a lot easier. A lot more
          common ground.

          For those who have never used a tent and are going straight to a
          hammock, then the learning curve for a Bridge is no worse than for any
          other hammock. They will probably have it easier than those who have
          used a conventional hammock since they won't have deeply rooted
          concepts of how a hammock is supposed to be. No habits to overcome.


          >
          > Dave Womble
          > aka Youngblood 2000
          > designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender and SnugFit Underquilt
          >
        • sebastiantoney
          I made a Bridge Hammock. It s 96 inches long and 60 inches wide. First It was 36 inch spreaders on the head end and 24 inches on the foot end. Shoulder squeeze
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
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            I made a Bridge Hammock. It's 96 inches long and 60 inches wide. First
            It was 36 inch spreaders on the head end and 24 inches on the foot
            end. Shoulder squeeze killed me. And Side sleeping didn't allow for
            the fetal position. Also, lines tend to get tangled.

            I'm one of those who has had a hard time getting comfortable in any
            hammock. But I ill say this, I think the Bridge Hammock is the only
            one I've seen with the potential to be comfortable. On Hammock Forums
            there is a version of the Bridge Hammock that does not use spreader
            bars. It uses snow stakes and line tied out on all four corners
            instead. That'll will be my next try. I just need to buy some big
            stakes and more Spyderline.

            I hear you about banana hammock being torture. I just can't get
            comfortable in them. I can't sleep on my back. And the banana curve
            plus the torque when laying on the diagonal is too much for me. For a
            long time I thought of giving up hammock camping. But the Bridge
            Hammock offers hope where banana hammocks fall short.



            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "terry_and_pearl"
            <terry_and_pearl@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Womble" <dpwomble@> wrote:
            > >
            > > GrizzlyAdams,
            > >
            > > I couldn't get the photo link to work this morning but I think I have
            > > seen the photos you refer too. You and I could probably get lost in
            > > technical talk but most folks don't want to hear that, they just want
            > > to know how it performs and compares relative to something they are
            > > familiar with.
            > >
            > > Getting into and out of hammocks is a tricky proposition with all
            > > hammocks and is something I get concerned with from time to time. You
            > > have to pay attention to what you are doing, particularly the novice
            > > hammock user or someone using underquilts, peapods or most any other
            > > insulation as they do add some level of complexity to the process.
            > > The narrow mid section that one would presumably first sit in on your
            > > bridge hammock is the first thing I notice. I have noticed that
            > > narrow conventional hammocks are more difficult to safely enter that
            > > wider conventional hammocks. Do the spreader bars somewhat opening up
            > > the hammock bed help with that?
            >
            > Dave, I responded to your question about entry/exit to the Bridge
            > Hammock. As I said there, for me at least, it has turned out to be a
            > non-issue. I was concerned when I started. And a little confused. Do I
            > get over the webbing or duck under the spreader bar or ...???
            >
            > After making the Hammock, getting in and out is as natural as any top
            > loader I have used. Since I enter/exit at the mid-point, the spreader
            > bars are far away and don't really enter into the procedure.
            >
            > The narrow mid-section, doesn't really matter. I find it enjoyable in
            > fact.
            >
            > I can sit cross-wise, i.e., webbing to webbing, in the hammock with my
            > back against one webbing and my legs hanging out over the opposite
            > webbing. I can sit up, almost upright, or I can lean way back. I find
            > it rather comfortable. I can also get entirely in the hammock, and sit
            > up with my legs laid out in front of me. Scott and David developed
            > methods for using the Hammock as a lounger, kind of like a Laz-y-Boy.
            > Both quite inventive.
            >
            > >
            > > And speaking of those wide spreader bars, whether they are dedicated
            > > poles or hiking poles, they present new issues besides the torque and
            > > tension on them and the hammock bed. I have used similar struts to
            > > experiment with hammocks and to attach two hammocks side by side to
            > > the same trees (http://tinyurl.com/2o7qu5). I don't believe the ones
            > > I used would be as high as the ones you have on your bridge hammock
            > > and I don't think they were as long. But I worried they were
            > > something that could potentially be a problem with tarp coverage,
            > > possibly snagging someone walking nearby, or poke a tarp when the
            > > hammocks swing or are pushed to one side. Certainly that is not a
            > > particularly difficult technical issue to resolve, but it is different
            > > than the customary backpacking hammocks.
            >
            > Yes tarp coverage and interference between the pole ends and the tarp
            > can be an issue. But I find the issue can be managed by how you hang
            > the tarp and how high you hang the hammock. As for the spreader ends
            > interfering with movement under the tarp. Again I have found it to be
            > an issue that goes away with learning to use the hammock.
            >
            > When you moved from the ground to a hammock you had to learn new
            > habits and ways of doing things. The same is true for the Bridge
            > Hammock, just not as big a learning curve. For me, I set up the
            > hammock and tarp. I then have my trekking poles setup as spreader
            > bars. I then remove the poles with one end still attached to the
            > hammock. The hammock then collapses down - no spread. Moving around
            > under the tarp is then easier than with a Hennessy and the side tie
            > outs. Maybe even easier than a Speer since the Bridge collapses down
            > very narrow. Narrower than any Speer I have seen. Inserting the
            > trekking poles as spreader bars just before entering for the night is
            > accomplished in a matter of seconds. Night time calls just reverse the
            > procedure. Inserting the trekking poles and taking them out is
            > accomplished in seconds and with a little practice, it becomes second
            > nature. At least it has worked that way for me.
            >
            > As far as the ends of the trekking poles tearing the tarp. This again
            > was something I was concerned about also. It has turned out to be
            > another non-issue for me. The carbide tips of my poles are covered
            > with plastic which enables them to be used as spreader bars and the
            > other end has a 1/2" diameter AL cylinder with rounded edges, but not
            > pointed. Could the tarp material rub and eventually wear through? Yes,
            > but the situation can be managed by learning slightly different
            > techniques than those used with a conventional hammock.
            >
            >
            > >
            > > The bridge hammock has some significant differences from what folks
            > > are use to and I would think most folks are concerned with the
            > > differences-- the tradeoffs if you will, both the positive ones, the
            > > negative ones, and even the ones that are six of one versus half a
            > > dozen of the other. Something laid out simple and brief to help them
            > > understand just what it is and what it can do for them versus what it
            > > isn't and what it can't do for them. And I know that is sometimes
            > > difficult for technical folks involved in design specifics to do-- we
            > > often have a hard time seeing the forest because of all the specific
            > > trees we see.
            >
            > Yes - using the Bridge Hammock is different from a conventional
            > hammock. Not as different as moving from a tent to a hammock, but
            > different. For anybody that made the transition from the tent to a
            > hammock, learning to use a Bridge should be a lot easier. A lot more
            > common ground.
            >
            > For those who have never used a tent and are going straight to a
            > hammock, then the learning curve for a Bridge is no worse than for any
            > other hammock. They will probably have it easier than those who have
            > used a conventional hammock since they won't have deeply rooted
            > concepts of how a hammock is supposed to be. No habits to overcome.
            >
            >
            > >
            > > Dave Womble
            > > aka Youngblood 2000
            > > designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender and SnugFit Underquilt
            > >
            >
          • Dave Womble
            ... ... ... terry_and_pearl, I don t believe I compared the bridge hammock to a cot or the floor of a shelter. One point I was trying to make was that
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "terry_and_pearl"
              <terry_and_pearl@...> wrote:
              >
              <snip>...

              > As far as your other points and trying to compare the Bridge Hammock
              > to a cot or the floor of a shelter. The comparison doesn't make any
              > sense to me. I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish
              > with such comparisons. First the Bridge Hammock is made of whatever
              > fabric you decide, you can use the heavy cotton used in the cot if you
              > like, but I wouldn't advise it. The same fabric you use for your other
              > DIY hammocks would be much better. As for comparing to the floor of a
              > shelter, I don't advise making the Bridge Hammock out of wood either.
              > As I said, the point of the comparisons escapes me.

              ... <snip>
              >

              terry_and_pearl,

              I don't believe I compared the bridge hammock to a cot or the floor of
              a shelter.

              One point I was trying to make was that the term flat was being
              misused and could cause confusion. I have brought the same issue up
              in the past when folks stated they were able to lay flat in more
              traditional backpacking hammocks by laying on a diagonal and told them
              they weren't really laying flat but were laying flatter. As another
              example, this is a flat suspended platform http://tinyurl.com/3dmps3
              and this is not http://tinyurl.com/32v2rt . Both those types of
              platforms provide for a straight spine but have some different
              characteristics that can affect comfort... there are some tradeoffs
              involved and different individuals may find different comfort levels
              between the two.

              Another point I was trying to make was that being flat in itself is
              not the holy grail of comfort and that was where the reference to flat
              shelter floors was brought up. Shelter floors are flat but most
              people don't find them particularly comfortable unless they use a lot
              of cushioning with them. Many folks have gone to hammocks that use
              stretchy nylon fabric that don't allow them to get totally flat to get
              off those hard flat shelter floors so they could be more comfortable.

              My intent was to clarify the descriptions that were being used and to
              point out that being comfortable isn't all about being flat, that
              relieving uncomfortable pressure points plays a huge part it how
              comfortable a person is.

              Dave Womble
              aka Youngblood 2000
              designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender and SnugFit Underquilt
            • tim garner
              i have to say, in my hammock i m so close to flat that the slight curve is hard for me to detect. i need to get someone to check it w/ a line . i use a
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                i have to say, in my hammock i'm so close to flat that the slight curve is hard for me to detect. i need to get someone to check it w/ a line<g>.
                i use a different method than most... narrow hammock, hung w/ not much sag. i also use a DAM, softly inflated to conform.

                but when i've laid in other hammock types... a loosely hung, 5' wide by 11' long hammock (dave's), & a hh clone (headchange's) i was also so close to flat that if there was a sag going in the direction of a banana, it was very minimal & i was extreamly comfrtable w/o a DAM. mater a fact in dave's wide hammock, my feet seemed to rest a few inches lower than my back as they were off to one side, and the back/torso was perfectly supported.
                the only reason i haven't made a wider hammock like that is more hammock material & more insulation. but it was so comfortable, i might could do w/o the DAM.

                i haven't wanted to be negative toward the bridge type hammocks, because they will probably suit some folks better, but the two i've laid in seemed far to rigid & non-conforming after using the more common types.
                i disliked the shoulder squeeze too but of course i realize that can probably be helped by using longer spreader bars.

                another thing i really like about my hammock style is lower sides for a great view!!! ...tim



                don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!


                ---------------------------------
                Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • terry_and_pearl
                ... Dave - I think I misunderstood what you were saying. Scanned too fast and left my mind on idle while doing so. Yes you right. Flat, as in mattress flat,
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Womble" <dpwomble@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "terry_and_pearl"
                  > <terry_and_pearl@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > <snip>...
                  >
                  > > As far as your other points and trying to compare the Bridge Hammock
                  > > to a cot or the floor of a shelter. The comparison doesn't make any
                  > > sense to me. I just don't understand what you are trying to accomplish
                  > > with such comparisons. First the Bridge Hammock is made of whatever
                  > > fabric you decide, you can use the heavy cotton used in the cot if you
                  > > like, but I wouldn't advise it. The same fabric you use for your other
                  > > DIY hammocks would be much better. As for comparing to the floor of a
                  > > shelter, I don't advise making the Bridge Hammock out of wood either.
                  > > As I said, the point of the comparisons escapes me.
                  >
                  > ... <snip>
                  > >
                  >
                  > terry_and_pearl,
                  >
                  > I don't believe I compared the bridge hammock to a cot or the floor of
                  > a shelter.
                  >
                  > One point I was trying to make was that the term flat was being
                  > misused and could cause confusion. I have brought the same issue up
                  > in the past when folks stated they were able to lay flat in more
                  > traditional backpacking hammocks by laying on a diagonal and told them
                  > they weren't really laying flat but were laying flatter. As another
                  > example, this is a flat suspended platform http://tinyurl.com/3dmps3
                  > and this is not http://tinyurl.com/32v2rt . Both those types of
                  > platforms provide for a straight spine but have some different
                  > characteristics that can affect comfort... there are some tradeoffs
                  > involved and different individuals may find different comfort levels
                  > between the two.
                  >
                  > Another point I was trying to make was that being flat in itself is
                  > not the holy grail of comfort and that was where the reference to flat
                  > shelter floors was brought up. Shelter floors are flat but most
                  > people don't find them particularly comfortable unless they use a lot
                  > of cushioning with them. Many folks have gone to hammocks that use
                  > stretchy nylon fabric that don't allow them to get totally flat to get
                  > off those hard flat shelter floors so they could be more comfortable.
                  >
                  > My intent was to clarify the descriptions that were being used and to
                  > point out that being comfortable isn't all about being flat, that
                  > relieving uncomfortable pressure points plays a huge part it how
                  > comfortable a person is.
                  >
                  > Dave Womble
                  > aka Youngblood 2000
                  > designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender and SnugFit Underquilt
                  >

                  Dave - I think I misunderstood what you were saying. Scanned too fast
                  and left my mind on idle while doing so.

                  Yes you right. Flat, as in mattress flat, isn't really what I wanted.
                  What I wanted most of all was to get rid of the backwards pressure on
                  my knees. I guess I have just gotten into the habit of using the term
                  "flat" as shorthand to mean just that.

                  My Safari clone does a beautiful job of doing that. Until I took a
                  wild chance and made a Bridge Hammock, that Safari clone was my
                  favorite hammock. The whipping is such that I have a little platform
                  formed by the folds that acted as a pillow, so none needed for my
                  head. Also, the folds are such that my knees are raised just a
                  fraction of an inch. Not much, but enough that the backward pressure
                  is eliminated. I didn't plan the whipping like that, it just happened
                  to work out that way and I love it.

                  And talk about room!! That hammock is HUGE. I really got to the point
                  that I like a HUGE hammock for the roominess and the fact that the
                  ridge line was up high and out of my face and I didn't attempt to
                  decapitate myself on it getting into and out of the hammock.

                  I prefer hammocks with ridge lines and will not use one without
                  anymore. That is my personal preference.

                  But my Safari clone is HEAVY, HEAVY and oh by the way did I mention
                  that it is HEAVY. Almost 1 lb just for the fabric, then add in the bug
                  netting, the Velcro for the bottom entry/exit slit, the Velcro on the
                  edges and the bug netting to make the bug netting removable, the bias
                  tape used for trim instead of hems and the weight is up to almost 2
                  lbs. Then add in the snake skins and a tarp and we are talking
                  significant weight here.

                  The Safari clone is a very, very comfortable hammock, but the price
                  paid is weight.

                  Tim mentioned the view. That was another problem with the Safari
                  clone. Laying on the diagonal, there is a veritable wall of material
                  to your right. The view to the right is blocked almost totally from
                  your feet around to the head end, continuing around almost to the left
                  shoulder. About the only place you can really see out of that hammock
                  is from the left shoulder down to the the level of the hips. Then the
                  fabric starts rising up and blocking everything again. If anything
                  wanted to sneak and surprise you, just come from your right side
                  towards your head. You wouldn't see a thing.

                  So what happened when I laid in my Bridge Hammock after I got the
                  ridge line and spreaders adjusted properly??

                  Well, first of all, I noticed that I do need a head pillow just like I
                  do on my memory foam mattress. Then I noticed that I also will
                  probably use a small pillow under my knees occasionally just like I do
                  on my memory foam mattress. In the Bridge Hammock, I use one of those
                  air pillows from BPL for my knees. Deflated it weighs approximately 1
                  oz, maybe less. If I had known about the less expensive sources for
                  that pillow, I would have purchased there instead of BPL, but what the
                  heck.

                  I learned fast that the air pillow doesn't work for my head, the air
                  doesn't stay in one place and my head just flops from side to side.
                  Useless for my head. So I invented a built-in pillow for my Bridge
                  Hammock. It isn't really a pillow, but a platform made out of 1.1 oz
                  ripstop, grosgrain and guy line cord. Works great when sleeping on my
                  back and even better than a pillow when on my side. And being
                  built-in, it cannot get lost an weighs approximately 1 oz or less.
                  Also, since it is made out of 1.1 oz ripstop, it conforms to my head
                  and cushions.

                  One thing I didn't like about the Bridge Hammock was sleeping on my
                  side - no room for my arms. They ended up folded across my chest. If
                  you have seen the picture of the guy in the OZ site, that is what he
                  is doing. I like to kind of have the underside arm extended under my
                  head or out in front of me. The Safari clone was great for that. Just
                  cannot do that in the Bridge Hammock without my built-in
                  pillow/platform. The platform supports my head at just the right
                  height (which is easily adjustable) and my arm can then be extended up
                  under the pillow and my head. Until I invented the built-in pillow,
                  sleeping on my side was a struggle with the un-natural position for
                  me. With the built-in pillow, I fall to sleep on my side, either side,
                  in seconds or minutes.

                  Now back to something I really, really, really like about the Bridge
                  Hammock ---- The View. I have more unobstructed view from my Bridge
                  Hammock than any hammock I have ever laid in. That dip in the middle
                  affords the best view out the sides I have ever seen in a hammock. The
                  rising sides on the foot of the hammock are seen pretty much on edge
                  and present almost no obstruction to the view. The rising sides on
                  head of the hammock are steeper than on the foot and consequently
                  present less obstruction than the foot sides would. True, you are
                  looking at the head sides full on, but there just seems to be less
                  there. Directly over the feet and directly overhead, the hammock can
                  be fully open or closed, my choice. I can fully open for an
                  unobstructed view or close off fully to block wind or I can open/close
                  partially for a view and ventilation compromise.

                  The view is obstructed a whole lot when I install my poncho liner as
                  an under quilt. The liner is stretched out under the hammock and acts
                  like a huge bathtub, only open ended. When it is cold and windy out, I
                  close off the hammock above my head and below my feet to block wind
                  and then the high sides of the poncho liner accomplish the same for
                  the sides even with that dip in the middle of the hammock. Getting in
                  with the poncho liner installed as an under quilt is not an issue. The
                  foot end is secured with shock cord. So I just pull the side of the
                  liner down to the webbing on the hammock and enter/exit normally. The
                  poncho liner snaps back into place. No problem. I have a piece of
                  shock cord attached to the middle of one side of the poncho liner.
                  That cord gets run over the ridge line and clipped with a micro
                  carabiner to the other side. It is secured only when I am in the
                  hammock - just grab the cord, throw over the ridge line, catch and
                  clip - done is 2 or 3 seconds. With the poncho liner secured at four
                  corners and the middle it is snug. To get even more insulation, as I
                  wrote previously, I just lay my Gossamer Gear Thinlight pads on top of
                  the liner. Since they are under the hammock and on top of the liner,
                  they stay in place as if stitched there no matter how much I move
                  about and toss and turn. Nothing special needed. With the cut down
                  section turned perpendicular, I have insulation up past my shoulders
                  when on my back

                  Using one of the small IR thermometers, I have observed a little
                  better than 15* F difference between ambient air inside the
                  hammock/liner "bathtub" and the hammock fabric under my back with both
                  the poncho liner and the GG pads. The GG pads put 3/4" thick
                  insulation under my torso. Also, I have observed about a 5* F to 10* F
                  difference in ambient temperature inside the poncho liner "bathtub"
                  and the outside air. The latter was with only a small wind outside. I
                  am thinking of making a "bug netting" out of 1.1 oz ripstop. It isn't
                  for bugs, but to act as an overcover to seal the hammock with the
                  poncho liner or under quilt. Would only use when it is very windy and
                  very cold. I would then slightly open either the cover above my head
                  or below my feet or both for ventilation.

                  Roominess??? My Safari clone is the epitome of roominess for all
                  hammocks except big Mayans. But then The Safari is essentially,
                  almost, a Mayan hammock with bug netting and bottom entry/exit.

                  How does the Bridge Hammock compare? Quite well in my opinion. It
                  doesn't have the "acres" of fabric that a Mayan or the Safari has. But
                  it also doesn't constrict me much either. With a spreader bar above my
                  head of 105 cm (41.3 inches - my tape measure is graduated in metric
                  so I end up mixing metric and English units), shoulder squeeze is not
                  an issue for me. But then I don't have a line backer's shoulders
                  either. I'm not diminutive either - my chest measures between 44" and
                  45" and if I include my arms, it measures between 50" and 51". So that
                  gives you something to compare with for shoulder squeeze.

                  I have found that for me, I really don't need the "acres" of fabric
                  and the subsequent weight to have roominess.

                  I sleep exclusively on my side and back with a preference for my side.
                  I'm adaptable and can sleep on my back exclusively and on my stomach
                  if forced, but I find sleeping on my stomach uncomfortable - I usually
                  get a sore neck.

                  To get an idea of how the Bridge Hammock works, do a thought
                  experiment. As an engineer you are probably used to doing this.

                  First get a picture of a big Mayan Hammock with a person laying
                  totally on the diagonal, laying perpendicular to the line from tree to
                  tree. Picture the roominess and comfort and lack of shoulder squeeze.

                  Got It??

                  Okay, now leaving the person in the hammock and the hammock in the
                  air, unhitch from the trees.

                  Now, take the ends where the whipping is, un-whip the ends and spread
                  the fabric out flat. Remember the hammock is still in the air with the
                  person in it.

                  Now you have all of that fabric with the person in the "bathtub".

                  Cut away all of the extraneous fabric. Cut it down to about 2 feet
                  above the person laying in the hammock.

                  You will notice that in the middle, where you cut the fabric away, the
                  fabric is loose and tight only at the corners.

                  To get rid of the looseness, we'll take a lesson from bridge builders
                  and cut again, only this time instead of cutting on a straight line,
                  we'll cut an arc, low in the middle. Taking another lesson from the
                  bridge builders, we'll make the arc steeper where he upper body is. We
                  do this since the steeper arc supports the extra weight of the upper
                  body better.

                  Now sew some supporting rope or webbing along both cuts, rotate the
                  whole thing 90 degrees and extend the rope or webbing out to the trees
                  and you essentially have the Bridge Hammock. Some of the details about
                  sewing and using a mixture of webbing and rope and joining the ropes
                  to get 1 rope running to the tree have to be added to finish, but you
                  get the idea.

                  You still have the roominess and comfort of that Mayan Hammock, but
                  have eliminated a lot of weight.
                • C C Wayah
                  Ok Dave, Can this strut system work with the hennery hammocks with one tarp or find a way to tandem the tarps together? My husband and I had a hard time
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ok Dave,
                    Can this strut system work with the hennery hammocks with one tarp or find
                    a way to tandem the tarps together?
                    My husband and I had a hard time finding four suitable trees north of Woody
                    gap that wasn't full of poison ivy this summer. We found two trees across a
                    cleared side trail easily but not four in a reasonable distance from each
                    other so that only one of us was not in the PI.
                    .
                    Rogene


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Dave Womble" <dpwomble@...>
                    To: <hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:33 AM
                    Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: Bridge Hammock ...is it cumfortable?


                    > GrizzlyAdams,
                    >
                    > I couldn't get the photo link to work this morning but I think I have
                    > seen the photos you refer too. You and I could probably get lost in
                    > technical talk but most folks don't want to hear that, they just want
                    > to know how it performs and compares relative to something they are
                    > familiar with.
                    >
                    > Getting into and out of hammocks is a tricky proposition with all
                    > hammocks and is something I get concerned with from time to time. You
                    > have to pay attention to what you are doing, particularly the novice
                    > hammock user or someone using underquilts, peapods or most any other
                    > insulation as they do add some level of complexity to the process.
                    > The narrow mid section that one would presumably first sit in on your
                    > bridge hammock is the first thing I notice. I have noticed that
                    > narrow conventional hammocks are more difficult to safely enter that
                    > wider conventional hammocks. Do the spreader bars somewhat opening up
                    > the hammock bed help with that?
                    >
                    > And speaking of those wide spreader bars, whether they are dedicated
                    > poles or hiking poles, they present new issues besides the torque and
                    > tension on them and the hammock bed. I have used similar struts to
                    > experiment with hammocks and to attach two hammocks side by side to
                    > the same trees (http://tinyurl.com/2o7qu5). I don't believe the ones
                    > I used would be as high as the ones you have on your bridge hammock
                    > and I don't think they were as long. But I worried they were
                    > something that could potentially be a problem with tarp coverage,
                    > possibly snagging someone walking nearby, or poke a tarp when the
                    > hammocks swing or are pushed to one side. Certainly that is not a
                    > particularly difficult technical issue to resolve, but it is different
                    > than the customary backpacking hammocks.
                    >
                    > The bridge hammock has some significant differences from what folks
                    > are use to and I would think most folks are concerned with the
                    > differences-- the tradeoffs if you will, both the positive ones, the
                    > negative ones, and even the ones that are six of one versus half a
                    > dozen of the other. Something laid out simple and brief to help them
                    > understand just what it is and what it can do for them versus what it
                    > isn't and what it can't do for them. And I know that is sometimes
                    > difficult for technical folks involved in design specifics to do-- we
                    > often have a hard time seeing the forest because of all the specific
                    > trees we see.
                    >
                    > Dave Womble
                    > aka Youngblood 2000
                    > designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender and SnugFit Underquilt
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • terry_and_pearl
                    ... curve is hard for me to detect. i need to get someone to check it w/ a line . ... not much sag. i also use a DAM, softly inflated to conform. ... wide
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, tim garner <slowhike@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > i have to say, in my hammock i'm so close to flat that the slight
                      curve is hard for me to detect. i need to get someone to check it w/
                      a line<g>.
                      > i use a different method than most... narrow hammock, hung w/
                      not much sag. i also use a DAM, softly inflated to conform.
                      >
                      > but when i've laid in other hammock types... a loosely hung, 5'
                      wide by 11' long hammock (dave's), & a hh clone (headchange's) i was
                      also so close to flat that if there was a sag going in the direction
                      of a banana, it was very minimal & i was extreamly comfrtable w/o a
                      DAM. mater a fact in dave's wide hammock, my feet seemed to rest a
                      few inches lower than my back as they were off to one side, and the
                      back/torso was perfectly supported.
                      > the only reason i haven't made a wider hammock like that is
                      more hammock material & more insulation. but it was so comfortable, i
                      might could do w/o the DAM.
                      >
                      > i haven't wanted to be negative toward the bridge type hammocks,
                      because they will probably suit some folks better, but the two i've
                      laid in seemed far to rigid & non-conforming after using the more
                      common types.
                      > i disliked the shoulder squeeze too but of course i realize
                      that can probably be helped by using longer spreader bars.
                      >
                      > another thing i really like about my hammock style is lower
                      sides for a great view!!! ...tim
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                      > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
                      Yahoo! Games.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      Tim - you're probably not a good candidate for a Bridge Hammock. You
                      seem to have found what you like and is comfortable for you. Maybe a
                      good idea to stick with it.

                      I'm just having a lot of fun in designing something completely new and
                      different and also enjoying the fact that for me it works so very well.

                      I'm really not trying to talk anybody into the Bridge Hammock instead
                      of something else. I just get enthusiastic and like to share that with
                      others. If I didn't enjoy the Bridge Hammock I just wouldn't do it.
                      Sorry if that comes across as being pushy or anything - it's not meant
                      to be that way.
                    • tim garner
                      if you go to the photo gallery, go to the last page & back up one, you will see several photos starting w/ slowhike . check the one that says three
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 24, 2007
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                        if you go to the photo gallery, go to the last page & back up one, you will see several photos starting w/ "slowhike". check the one that says "three hammocks".
                        it's a lot easier to find there trees for two hammocks than four.
                        we have set 2 & 3 hammocks beside each other many times, using the same tree for the foot end hammock supports & two separate trees for the head end supports.


                        C C Wayah <ccwayah@...> wrote:
                        Ok Dave,
                        Can this strut system work with the hennery hammocks with one tarp or find
                        a way to tandem the tarps together?
                        My husband and I had a hard time finding four suitable trees north of Woody
                        gap that wasn't full of poison ivy this summer. We found two trees across a
                        cleared side trail easily but not four in a reasonable distance from each
                        other so that only one of us was not in the PI.
                        .
                        Rogene


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Dave Womble"
                        To:
                        Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:33 AM
                        Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: Bridge Hammock ...is it cumfortable?


                        > GrizzlyAdams,
                        >
                        > I couldn't get the photo link to work this morning but I think I have
                        > seen the photos you refer too. You and I could probably get lost in
                        > technical talk but most folks don't want to hear that, they just want
                        > to know how it performs and compares relative to something they are
                        > familiar with.
                        >
                        > Getting into and out of hammocks is a tricky proposition with all
                        > hammocks and is something I get concerned with from time to time. You
                        > have to pay attention to what you are doing, particularly the novice
                        > hammock user or someone using underquilts, peapods or most any other
                        > insulation as they do add some level of complexity to the process.
                        > The narrow mid section that one would presumably first sit in on your
                        > bridge hammock is the first thing I notice. I have noticed that
                        > narrow conventional hammocks are more difficult to safely enter that
                        > wider conventional hammocks. Do the spreader bars somewhat opening up
                        > the hammock bed help with that?
                        >
                        > And speaking of those wide spreader bars, whether they are dedicated
                        > poles or hiking poles, they present new issues besides the torque and
                        > tension on them and the hammock bed. I have used similar struts to
                        > experiment with hammocks and to attach two hammocks side by side to
                        > the same trees (http://tinyurl.com/2o7qu5). I don't believe the ones
                        > I used would be as high as the ones you have on your bridge hammock
                        > and I don't think they were as long. But I worried they were
                        > something that could potentially be a problem with tarp coverage,
                        > possibly snagging someone walking nearby, or poke a tarp when the
                        > hammocks swing or are pushed to one side. Certainly that is not a
                        > particularly difficult technical issue to resolve, but it is different
                        > than the customary backpacking hammocks.
                        >
                        > The bridge hammock has some significant differences from what folks
                        > are use to and I would think most folks are concerned with the
                        > differences-- the tradeoffs if you will, both the positive ones, the
                        > negative ones, and even the ones that are six of one versus half a
                        > dozen of the other. Something laid out simple and brief to help them
                        > understand just what it is and what it can do for them versus what it
                        > isn't and what it can't do for them. And I know that is sometimes
                        > difficult for technical folks involved in design specifics to do-- we
                        > often have a hard time seeing the forest because of all the specific
                        > trees we see.
                        >
                        > Dave Womble
                        > aka Youngblood 2000
                        > designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender and SnugFit Underquilt
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >




                        Yahoo! Groups Links






                        don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!


                        ---------------------------------
                        Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • milwaukee_son
                        ... detect. i need to get someone to check it w/ a line . ... use a DAM, softly inflated to conform. ... Tim, I ve seen pictures of you in your hammock. How
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 25, 2007
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                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, tim garner <slowhike@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > i have to say, in my hammock i'm so close to flat that the slight curve is hard for me to
                          detect. i need to get someone to check it w/ a line<g>.
                          > i use a different method than most... narrow hammock, hung w/ not much sag. i also
                          use a DAM, softly inflated to conform.
                          >

                          Tim, I've seen pictures of you in your hammock. How wide is your DAM? How effective is it at
                          pushing out the sides of your hammock?

                          I'm thinking that a set up for a really cold night in a bridge hammock could be a 26" wide
                          Exped DAM inside the bridge, sleeping in a normal deep winter sleeping bag. If the spreader
                          bars are closer to 36" than 42" inches and the DAM pushes out whatever shoulder squeeze
                          there is, with an overcover one would have quite a nice "floating tent" like feel, with closure
                          small enough to keep some heat (or at least cut the air movement, and large enough to be
                          comfortable.
                        • tim garner
                          i believe the exped 7 i have is about 23 wide inflated. it does keep the hammock walls spread really well. at times i wouldn t mind a few more inches width
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 25, 2007
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                            i believe the exped 7 i have is about 23" wide inflated. it does keep the hammock walls spread really well. at times i wouldn't mind a few more inches width in cold weather so there would be more room for the quilt's full loft.
                            i may be trying a warmlight DAM soon. it's a little wider.



                            milwaukee_son <milwaukee_son@...> wrote:
                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, tim garner wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > i have to say, in my hammock i'm so close to flat that the slight curve is hard for me to
                            detect. i need to get someone to check it w/ a line.
                            > i use a different method than most... narrow hammock, hung w/ not much sag. i also
                            use a DAM, softly inflated to conform.
                            >

                            Tim, I've seen pictures of you in your hammock. How wide is your DAM? How effective is it at
                            pushing out the sides of your hammock?

                            I'm thinking that a set up for a really cold night in a bridge hammock could be a 26" wide
                            Exped DAM inside the bridge, sleeping in a normal deep winter sleeping bag. If the spreader
                            bars are closer to 36" than 42" inches and the DAM pushes out whatever shoulder squeeze
                            there is, with an overcover one would have quite a nice "floating tent" like feel, with closure
                            small enough to keep some heat (or at least cut the air movement, and large enough to be
                            comfortable.







                            Yahoo! Groups Links






                            don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!


                            ---------------------------------
                            Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Dave Womble
                            Tim, If you have a 20 wide Exped-7, it will fit into the sleeve of a SPE and you can use the wings to effectively extend the width. I use a SPE when I use my
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 25, 2007
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                              Tim,

                              If you have a 20" wide Exped-7, it will fit into the sleeve of a SPE
                              and you can use the wings to effectively extend the width. I use a
                              SPE when I use my 20" wide Exped-7 but don't use anything with my
                              large Stephenson DAM that is 28" at its widest... except for the
                              10"x20" ccf pad that I use under it to keep it from sliding so easily
                              against the hammock bed.

                              I found these large pads to be warm and comfy. They affect the lay of
                              the hammock, basically reducing shoulder squeeze and knee
                              hyper-extension while providing the ultimate in cushioning. Your
                              knees drop some if the mat isn't fully inflated because your heels
                              sink a little, with the 4+ inch thick Stephenson DAM you can hang your
                              heels off the end and get even more heel drop. With either one of
                              those DAMs, I just laugh at hard shelter floors and they probably make
                              hard shelter floors as comfortable, if not more for some folks, than a
                              nice hammock... you are flat, have no shoulder squeeze and have plenty
                              of cushioning.

                              But, they are not without some negative tradeoffs as well and those
                              are significant enough to consider before you think the DAMs are
                              perfect in every way. The first negative tradeoff I noticed was what
                              a pain they are to inflate and deflate in a hammock environment...
                              especially when it is very cold, which is where they excel in keeping
                              you warm.

                              Dave Womble
                              aka Youngblood 2000
                              Designer of the Speer Segmented Pad Extender and SnugFit Underquilt

                              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, tim garner <slowhike@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > i believe the exped 7 i have is about 23" wide inflated. it does
                              keep the hammock walls spread really well. at times i wouldn't mind a
                              few more inches width in cold weather so there would be more room for
                              the quilt's full loft.
                              > i may be trying a warmlight DAM soon. it's a little wider.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > milwaukee_son <milwaukee_son@...> wrote:
                              > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, tim garner wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > i have to say, in my hammock i'm so close to flat that the slight
                              curve is hard for me to
                              > detect. i need to get someone to check it w/ a line.
                              > > i use a different method than most... narrow hammock, hung w/ not
                              much sag. i also
                              > use a DAM, softly inflated to conform.
                              > >
                              >
                              > Tim, I've seen pictures of you in your hammock. How wide is your
                              DAM? How effective is it at
                              > pushing out the sides of your hammock?
                              >
                              > I'm thinking that a set up for a really cold night in a bridge
                              hammock could be a 26" wide
                              > Exped DAM inside the bridge, sleeping in a normal deep winter
                              sleeping bag. If the spreader
                              > bars are closer to 36" than 42" inches and the DAM pushes out
                              whatever shoulder squeeze
                              > there is, with an overcover one would have quite a nice "floating
                              tent" like feel, with closure
                              > small enough to keep some heat (or at least cut the air movement,
                              and large enough to be
                              > comfortable.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!!!
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with
                              Yahoo! Autos.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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