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  • Rick
    I wrote a very short article in Hammock Wiki about finding a place to hammock camp. You can read the article here:
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 6, 2003
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      I wrote a very short article in Hammock Wiki about finding a place to
      hammock camp.

      You can read the article here:

      http://www.flyfisher-kayaks.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl?Finding_A_Spot

      Also, please go out to the Hammock Wiki index and find an article
      that needs to be written and put a few words down about it. You can
      tell the articles that don't have anything written yet, because they
      have blue question marks next to them.

      The index is at

      http://www.flyfisher-kayaks.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl

      Rick
    • robi dawson
      Hi everybody, I finally located a source for so called ripstop nylon here in Budapest. In brief they have fabrics made by F.O.V. of Sweden and Concordia of
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 7, 2003
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        Hi everybody,

        I finally located a source for so called ripstop nylon here in Budapest.

        In brief they have fabrics made by F.O.V. of Sweden and Concordia of Belgium.

        They several weights, ranging from 42 g/m2 to 200g/m2. sg like 1.4 oz/yd to 7 oz/yd...

        Anybody know about these companies/their products?


        But it is extremely pricey and i am not sure of the material......

        also, very interesting was her supplex - i thougth that was a brand name - she showed me some material and the technical tag on it. Said sg like tag name - XYZ, other tag name - Supplex..

        what's up with that?

        and before i forget, thanks for all the replies to my request for donations!

        robi

        At 11:22 PM 6/6/03 +0000, you wrote:
        I wrote a very short article in Hammock Wiki about finding a place to
        hammock camp.

        You can read the article here:

        http://www.flyfisher-kayaks.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl?Finding_A_Spot

        Also, please go out to the Hammock Wiki index and find an article
        that needs to be written and put a few words down about it.  You can
        tell the articles that don't have anything written yet, because they
        have blue question marks next to them. 

        The index is at

        http://www.flyfisher-kayaks.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl

        Rick


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      • robi dawson
        ... i forgot to ask about water proofness of materials. How is the degree a material is waterproof represented in the US? here it s sg like: 1000mm up to 10
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 7, 2003
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          ... i forgot to ask about water proofness of materials.

          How is the degree a material is waterproof represented in the US?

          here it's sg like:

          1000mm up to 10 000mm but i do not know if that means mm/m2 or height of
          water from material or whatever, confusing but darn intersting if you ask me...

          robi
        • Ed Speer
          Robi, Maybe you should wait til my book arrives before buying hammock fabrics--there is an entire chapter on making your own hammock, including a disscussion
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 9, 2003
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            Message
            Robi, Maybe you should wait til my book arrives before buying hammock fabrics--there is an entire chapter on making your own hammock, including a disscussion on suitable fabrics.  I think that will be useful to you in choosing fabrics.  I failed to get the book out before my recent hike--but it will go out today....Ed
             
             
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: robi dawson [mailto:beanco@...]
            Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 12:24 PM
            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Hammock Camping anybody familiar with these...

            Hi everybody,

            I finally located a source for so called ripstop nylon here in Budapest.

            In brief they have fabrics made by F.O.V. of Sweden and Concordia of Belgium.

            They several weights, ranging from 42 g/m2 to 200g/m2. sg like 1.4 oz/yd to 7 oz/yd...

            Anybody know about these companies/their products?


            But it is extremely pricey and i am not sure of the material......

            also, very interesting was her supplex - i thougth that was a brand name - she showed me some material and the technical tag on it. Said sg like tag name - XYZ, other tag name - Supplex..

            what's up with that?

            and before i forget, thanks for all the replies to my request for donations!

            robi

            At 11:22 PM 6/6/03 +0000, you wrote:
            I wrote a very short article in Hammock Wiki about finding a place to
            hammock camp.

            You can read the article here:

            http://www.flyfisher-kayaks.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl?Finding_A_Spot

            Also, please go out to the Hammock Wiki index and find an article
            that needs to be written and put a few words down about it.  You can
            tell the articles that don't have anything written yet, because they
            have blue question marks next to them. 

            The index is at

            http://www.flyfisher-kayaks.com/cgi-bin/hwiki.pl

            Rick


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            28c0355.jpg 
            28c03ef.jpg

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            hammockcamping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            hammockcamping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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          • Ed Speer
            I ve not seen a universally used system in the US for waterproofness. But an accurate measurement like you mentioned is generally listed in the detailed specs
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 9, 2003
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              Message
              I've not seen a universally used system in the US for waterproofness.  But an accurate measurement like you mentioned is generally listed in the detailed specs for each fabric--unfortunately these specs are seldom given by merchants or manufacturers.  Waterproofness measurements seem more common on European fabrics.  I think 1000mm does mean resistance to a colume of water 1000mm high.  What is a good measurement I don't know--silnylon is NOT totally waterproof.  It is only resistant to water under low pressure, like falling or wind blown rain.  Silnylon will pass water under higher pressure, such as when it is in direct contact with water and a solid object, like your body lying on it on soaked ground.  Silnylon generally does not make a good ground cloth.  Some people report no problems with ground cloth use, but my experience is different.  Urethane-coated fabrics are more waterproof, but also are heavier.  Thus fabric waterproofness is a variable thing---it's a good thing to question it...Ed
               
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: robi dawson [mailto:beanco@...]
              Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 12:30 PM
              To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Hammock Camping oops i forgot..

              ... i forgot to ask about water proofness of materials.

              How is the degree a material is waterproof represented in the US?

              here it's sg like:

              1000mm  up to 10 000mm but i do not know if that means mm/m2 or height of
              water from material or whatever, confusing but darn intersting if you ask me...

              robi



              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              hammockcamping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • robi dawson
              ed, first, how was the hike? secondly, thank you for you kind letter! It always amazes me to see how friendly and helpful ppl can be when you approach them
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                ed,

                first, how was the hike?

                secondly, thank you for you kind letter! It always amazes me to see how
                friendly and helpful ppl can be when you approach them with an idea like
                mine. the list of donations you provided is utterly amazing.


                As for the book, no worries, when it gets here i will devour it and
                translate a summary of it for the teachers at the school.

                As for the materials i mentioned in my message below. i found a person who
                is interested in donating 3 meters of them, i.e. if ppl here can tell me
                enough about the quality then he will buy them for me. He is afraid of
                donating anything that may not be safe, which i find quite understandable.

                I thought I would ask on the list and if anybody knows about the material
                they could give me some advice, then i could use the stuff for a hammock
                with the kindergarten camping trip this coming weekend and show all those
                4-6 years olds how to live luxuriously while in the woods.... Get to make
                them pizza in the brick oven at the campsite, can't wait, baking for 80 ppl
                should be fun!

                Again, thanks everybody.

                Robi

                PS. no need to worry about the measurements i use both the US and the
                metric regularly, for tempatures for instance i do not even bother with
                conversion charts i just estimate, same for km - miles or vice versa,
                kilos-pounds no problem... in fact i am so used to it i often forget to
                convert from one to the other when sending measurements to friends who use
                only one of the systems...

                But yes, i think the US should convert, the metric system is just so darn
                simple and logical, a stroke of genius if you ask me. But changing to
                different systems is not easy, hard for many to let go of the *old* way....
                which is understandable.
              • Rick
                Hi Robi, Metric? English? Both are too limited. Actually, I wish we would all get back to anatomic measurements for things like hammocks and kayaks and
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                  Hi Robi,

                  Metric? English? Both are too limited.

                  Actually, I wish we would all get back to anatomic measurements for
                  things like hammocks and kayaks and clothing.

                  See a previous message:

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hammockcamping/message/757

                  It makes everything so much simpler to say that your hammock cloth
                  needs to be a fathom and 3 forearms long and its cords need to be 2
                  fathoms and a forearm long at each end.

                  fathom: as far as you can pull a cord between your outstretched arms.
                  2 fathoms is just about perfect distance between hammock trees...you
                  can use 2 paces as well, but they are a little shorter than fathoms
                  (a pace is two steps)

                  forearm: from the elbow to the fleshy part of the thumb where you
                  would hold a cord (fathom = 4 forearms) I make my hammocks 3
                  forearms wide, while Ed suggests a foot wider.

                  handspan: end of little finger to thumb when spread (forearm = 2
                  hand spans) This is about how far the tarp should overlap the
                  hammock at each end.

                  fingerspan: spreading the index and second finger, outside of one to
                  the outside of the other (two finger spans = one handspan) This is
                  the best diameter for a hammock hanging tree.

                  Then, the measurements are right for small and large people alike.

                  The "english" system went crazy when someone tried to standardize the
                  lengths. This was necessary for precision (like for machine parts)
                  but we lost all collective memory about how to use our own bodies to
                  measure things for ourselves.

                  My practice is to use personal anatomic measurements and when
                  necessary to convert them to some standard measurement. In the US,
                  by the way, cloth and webbing measurements are not in inches or feet,
                  but in yards. If I go into a fabric store and asks for 10 feet of
                  ripstop nylon, the clerk looks at me like I am some sort of ignorant
                  male. She will always stop and correct me... so you want 3 1/3
                  yards? Is that correct??

                  Whatever...

                  Rick



                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, robi dawson <beanco@m...>
                  wrote:
                  > ed,
                  >
                  > first, how was the hike?
                  >
                  > secondly, thank you for you kind letter! It always amazes me to see
                  how
                  > friendly and helpful ppl can be when you approach them with an idea
                  like
                  > mine. the list of donations you provided is utterly amazing.
                  >
                  >
                  > As for the book, no worries, when it gets here i will devour it and
                  > translate a summary of it for the teachers at the school.
                  >
                  > As for the materials i mentioned in my message below. i found a
                  person who
                  > is interested in donating 3 meters of them, i.e. if ppl here can
                  tell me
                  > enough about the quality then he will buy them for me. He is afraid
                  of
                  > donating anything that may not be safe, which i find quite
                  understandable.
                  >
                  > I thought I would ask on the list and if anybody knows about the
                  material
                  > they could give me some advice, then i could use the stuff for a
                  hammock
                  > with the kindergarten camping trip this coming weekend and show all
                  those
                  > 4-6 years olds how to live luxuriously while in the woods.... Get
                  to make
                  > them pizza in the brick oven at the campsite, can't wait, baking
                  for 80 ppl
                  > should be fun!
                  >
                  > Again, thanks everybody.
                  >
                  > Robi
                  >
                  > PS. no need to worry about the measurements i use both the US and
                  the
                  > metric regularly, for tempatures for instance i do not even bother
                  with
                  > conversion charts i just estimate, same for km - miles or vice
                  versa,
                  > kilos-pounds no problem... in fact i am so used to it i often
                  forget to
                  > convert from one to the other when sending measurements to friends
                  who use
                  > only one of the systems...
                  >
                  > But yes, i think the US should convert, the metric system is just
                  so darn
                  > simple and logical, a stroke of genius if you ask me. But changing
                  to
                  > different systems is not easy, hard for many to let go of the *old*
                  way....
                  > which is understandable.
                • robi dawson
                  Hi Rick, ... very interesting... i do that kind of measuring all the time when i am working from my head. it is when i follow the instructions of others that i
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                    Hi Rick,


                    Metric?  English?  Both are too limited.

                    Actually, I wish we would all get back to anatomic measurements for
                    things like hammocks and kayaks and clothing.

                    See a previous message:

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hammockcamping/message/757

                    very interesting... i do that kind of measuring all the time when i am working from my head. it is when i follow the instructions of others that i turn to the *box* and use meters and feet and yards and centimeters etc.

                    but cooking tends to be from sight, sound, feel and taste as does the cob oven i am slowly building in my back yard...

                    i find it easier to use these anatomic measurements, although i know the terms mentioned i did not know exactly what they referred to.

                    That being said i suppose the english and metric systems were invented to ensure standards so everybody is talking about the same thing

                    It makes everything so much simpler to say that your hammock cloth
                    needs to be a fathom and 3 forearms long and its cords need to be 2 
                    fathoms and a forearm long at each end.

                    fathom:  as far as you can pull a cord between your outstretched arms.
                    2 fathoms is just about perfect distance between hammock trees...you
                    can use 2 paces as well, but they are a little shorter than fathoms
                    (a pace is two steps)

                    forearm: from the elbow to the fleshy part of the thumb where you
                    would hold a cord (fathom = 4 forearms)  I make my hammocks 3
                    forearms wide, while Ed suggests a foot wider.

                    does inch not refer to some anatomic measurement. Huvely (pronounced hoo-vay), the hungary word for inch - a measurement not actually used here, just translated from Eng. refers to thumb....

                    handspan: end of little finger to thumb when spread  (forearm = 2
                    hand spans)  This is about how far the tarp should overlap the
                    hammock at each end.

                    the way horses are still measured if i am not mistaken...



                    The "english" system went crazy when someone tried to standardize the
                    lengths.  This was necessary for precision (like for machine parts)
                    but we lost all collective memory about how to use our own bodies to
                    measure things for ourselves. 

                    i have seen lots of survival camping shows of late on TV and they were mentioning measurements like this for making lean-tos and stuff... made it a whole heck of a lot easier than trying to worry about how many cm long or deep you make it....

                    as for the collective memory.. at the school where i will be taking the kids camping from each 3rd grade class builds a house or structure of some sorts. I was out helping last week. The teacher had a sketching of this round structure with measurements on it... the kids were just learning meters and cm and stuff but they had forgotten their tape measurer.

                    how do you build a structure to size without an instrument to measure with? they started pacing the distance from the center of the round building to be to the out edge and marked it off. they had to dig a trench for the foundation, 80 cm deep. again no tape to measure with. they knew the teach was just over 160 cm tall so they dug a whole, made her get in and decided where her middle is and adjusted the hole depth accordingly, then they dug the entire trench and it was pretty darn accurate...

                    another story from the school"

                    my son had to draw his bedroom to scale, he went around measuring how many *fathoms* two of the walls were and did the math, he actually figured that out on his own because i was busy working and he did not want to ask me to hold the tape measurer for him.... which i would have done gladly but i am actually happier that at the age of 10 he solved the problem with what he had at his disposal!


                    My practice is to use personal anatomic measurements and when
                    necessary to convert them to some standard measurement.  In the US,
                    by the way, cloth and webbing measurements are not in inches or feet,
                    but in yards.  If I go into a fabric store and asks for 10 feet of
                    ripstop nylon, the clerk looks at me like I am some sort of ignorant
                    male.  She will always stop and correct me... so you want 3 1/3
                    yards?  Is that correct??

                    what you could congratulate the clerk for being able to convert from whole numbers to fractions!

                    rick, thanks for the message. very good to hear i am not the only one that still uses his body... i would think that the only way to make a proper fitting kayak -a dream of ours BTW - is to measure the body and if your fathoms and arm/hand spans work then who needs a ruler?

                    the absolute best ladik - Hungarian type of rowing boat for fishermen - i have ever seen were made by craftsman, masters at that, without a single measurement in cm or meters! all spans and paces and done by eye not blue print. they row well, are stable on water and last for ages! and all wood! nice, nice nice...

                    robi
                  • Rick
                    Robi, Nice to see that someone else uses themselves as a measurement. Regarding the inch... It has a confusing history: inch Inch , n. [OE. inche, unche, AS.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                      Robi,

                      Nice to see that someone else uses themselves as a measurement.

                      Regarding the inch... It has a confusing history:

                      inch

                      \Inch\, n. [OE. inche, unche, AS. ynce, L. uncia the twelfth part,
                      inch, ounce. See Ounce a weight.] 1. A measure of length, the twelfth
                      part of a foot, commonly subdivided into halves, quarters, eights,
                      sixteenths, etc., as among mechanics. It was also formerly divided
                      into twelve parts, called lines, and originally into three parts,
                      called barleycorns, its length supposed to have been determined from
                      three grains of barley placed end to end lengthwise. It is also
                      sometimes called a prime ('), composed of twelve seconds (''), as in
                      the duodecimal system of arithmetic.

                      Relationship of the foot to the measurement called a foot is
                      interesting. My foot is size 11 and is 11 inches long... but the
                      same sort of thing is not true for smaller sizes. Someone with a
                      size 6 foot has a foot much longer than 6 inches. However someone
                      with a size 12 foot has a foot about 12 inches long.

                      If you read the other post, you saw that the nautical and statute
                      miles are actually metric... 1000 fathoms and paces respectively.
                      That the minute of latitude and the nautical mile ended up being the
                      same was a happy accident that really helps find distances on a
                      nautical chart.

                      Rick

                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, robi dawson <beanco@m...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hi Rick,
                      >
                      >
                      > >Metric? English? Both are too limited.
                      > >
                      > >Actually, I wish we would all get back to anatomic measurements for
                      > >things like hammocks and kayaks and clothing.
                      > >
                      > >See a previous message:
                      > >
                      >
                      ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hammockcamping/message/757>http://grou
                      ps.yahoo.com/group/hammockcamping/message/757
                      >
                      > very interesting... i do that kind of measuring all the time when i
                      am
                      > working from my head. it is when i follow the instructions of
                      others that i
                      > turn to the *box* and use meters and feet and yards and centimeters
                      etc.
                      >
                      > but cooking tends to be from sight, sound, feel and taste as does
                      the cob
                      > oven i am slowly building in my back yard...
                      >
                      > i find it easier to use these anatomic measurements, although i
                      know the
                      > terms mentioned i did not know exactly what they referred to.
                      >
                      > That being said i suppose the english and metric systems were
                      invented to
                      > ensure standards so everybody is talking about the same thing
                      >
                      > >It makes everything so much simpler to say that your hammock cloth
                      > >needs to be a fathom and 3 forearms long and its cords need to be 2
                      > >fathoms and a forearm long at each end.
                      > >
                      > >fathom: as far as you can pull a cord between your outstretched
                      arms.
                      > >2 fathoms is just about perfect distance between hammock
                      trees...you
                      > >can use 2 paces as well, but they are a little shorter than fathoms
                      > >(a pace is two steps)
                      > >
                      > >forearm: from the elbow to the fleshy part of the thumb where you
                      > >would hold a cord (fathom = 4 forearms) I make my hammocks 3
                      > >forearms wide, while Ed suggests a foot wider.
                      >
                      > does inch not refer to some anatomic measurement. Huvely
                      (pronounced
                      > hoo-vay), the hungary word for inch - a measurement not actually
                      used here,
                      > just translated from Eng. refers to thumb....
                      >
                      > >handspan: end of little finger to thumb when spread (forearm = 2
                      > >hand spans) This is about how far the tarp should overlap the
                      > >hammock at each end.
                      >
                      > the way horses are still measured if i am not mistaken...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >The "english" system went crazy when someone tried to standardize
                      the
                      > >lengths. This was necessary for precision (like for machine parts)
                      > >but we lost all collective memory about how to use our own bodies
                      to
                      > >measure things for ourselves.
                      >
                      > i have seen lots of survival camping shows of late on TV and they
                      were
                      > mentioning measurements like this for making lean-tos and stuff...
                      made it
                      > a whole heck of a lot easier than trying to worry about how many cm
                      long or
                      > deep you make it....
                      >
                      > as for the collective memory.. at the school where i will be taking
                      the
                      > kids camping from each 3rd grade class builds a house or structure
                      of some
                      > sorts. I was out helping last week. The teacher had a sketching of
                      this
                      > round structure with measurements on it... the kids were just
                      learning
                      > meters and cm and stuff but they had forgotten their tape measurer.
                      >
                      > how do you build a structure to size without an instrument to
                      measure with?
                      > they started pacing the distance from the center of the round
                      building to
                      > be to the out edge and marked it off. they had to dig a trench for
                      the
                      > foundation, 80 cm deep. again no tape to measure with. they knew
                      the teach
                      > was just over 160 cm tall so they dug a whole, made her get in and
                      decided
                      > where her middle is and adjusted the hole depth accordingly, then
                      they dug
                      > the entire trench and it was pretty darn accurate...
                      >
                      > another story from the school"
                      >
                      > my son had to draw his bedroom to scale, he went around measuring
                      how many
                      > *fathoms* two of the walls were and did the math, he actually
                      figured that
                      > out on his own because i was busy working and he did not want to
                      ask me to
                      > hold the tape measurer for him.... which i would have done gladly
                      but i am
                      > actually happier that at the age of 10 he solved the problem with
                      what he
                      > had at his disposal!
                      >
                      >
                      > >My practice is to use personal anatomic measurements and when
                      > >necessary to convert them to some standard measurement. In the US,
                      > >by the way, cloth and webbing measurements are not in inches or
                      feet,
                      > >but in yards. If I go into a fabric store and asks for 10 feet of
                      > >ripstop nylon, the clerk looks at me like I am some sort of
                      ignorant
                      > >male. She will always stop and correct me... so you want 3 1/3
                      > >yards? Is that correct??
                      >
                      > what you could congratulate the clerk for being able to convert
                      from whole
                      > numbers to fractions!
                      >
                      > rick, thanks for the message. very good to hear i am not the only
                      one that
                      > still uses his body... i would think that the only way to make a
                      proper
                      > fitting kayak -a dream of ours BTW - is to measure the body and if
                      your
                      > fathoms and arm/hand spans work then who needs a ruler?
                      >
                      > the absolute best ladik - Hungarian type of rowing boat for
                      fishermen - i
                      > have ever seen were made by craftsman, masters at that, without a
                      single
                      > measurement in cm or meters! all spans and paces and done by eye
                      not blue
                      > print. they row well, are stable on water and last for ages! and
                      all wood!
                      > nice, nice nice...
                      >
                      > robi
                    • robi dawson
                      Rick, you are a scientist, right? if so, i find it even more intriguing that you like anatomic measurements.... all that about the inch was interesting.. i
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                        Rick,

                        you are a scientist, right? if so, i find it even more intriguing that you like anatomic measurements....

                        all that about the inch was interesting.. i will see what i can find out about the Hungarian... that grain of barley part sounds familiar for some reason...



                        Robi

                        ps, i hope we are not boring anyone with this discussion...

                        oh. yea i have been meaning to ask what is an overhand knot? better yet, could you point me out to a knot site that might have it and other cool/useful knots to learn?

                        thanks
                      • Ed Speer
                        Pizza for 80 is quite an untaking Robi! Hope it goes well. And I think fixing dinner for one is a challenge! My hike was great--turned into more of an
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                          Message
                          Pizza for 80 is quite an untaking Robi!  Hope it goes well.  And I think fixing dinner for one is a challenge!
                           
                          My hike was great--turned into more of an adventure than I expected. Heavy rains on day 2 & 3 really flooded the mountain streams and sent me on a detour. I did wade several streams up to my waist (normal crossings were only ankle deep), but wisely left the trail to avoid about 10 more upcoming crossings.  Still finished the 50 mile hike early.
                          A hammock with a large tarp like mine is ideal for these conditions!
                           
                          As for suitable hammock fabrics, the book has some good suggestions....Ed
                           
                           
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: robi dawson [mailto:beanco@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:12 AM
                          To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Hammock Camping utterly amazed I am

                          ed,

                          first, how was the hike?

                          secondly, thank you for you kind letter! It always amazes me to see how
                          friendly and helpful ppl can be when you approach them with an idea like
                          mine. the list of donations you provided is utterly amazing.


                          As for the book, no worries, when it gets here i will devour it and
                          translate a summary of it for the teachers at the school.

                          As for the materials i mentioned in my message below. i found a person who
                          is interested in donating 3 meters of them, i.e. if ppl here can tell me
                          enough about the quality then he will buy them for me. He is afraid of
                          donating anything that may not be safe, which i find quite understandable.

                          I thought I would ask on the list and if anybody knows about the material
                          they could give me some advice, then i could use the stuff for a hammock
                          with the kindergarten camping trip this coming weekend and show all those
                          4-6 years olds how to live luxuriously while in the woods.... Get to make
                          them pizza in the brick oven at the campsite, can't wait, baking for 80 ppl
                          should be fun!

                          Again, thanks everybody.

                          Robi

                          PS. no need to worry about the measurements i use both the US and the
                          metric regularly, for tempatures for instance i do not even bother with
                          conversion charts i just estimate, same for km - miles or vice versa,
                          kilos-pounds no problem... in fact i am so used to it i often forget to
                          convert from one to the other when sending measurements to friends who use
                          only one of the systems...

                          But yes, i think the US should convert, the metric system is just so darn
                          simple and logical, a stroke of genius if you ask me. But changing to
                          different systems is not easy, hard for many to let go of the *old* way....
                          which is understandable.




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                        • robi dawson
                          yeap Ed, dinner for one is a challenge, it just ain t fun cooking for yourself, and doing stuff that ain t fun is a real challenge for me... now baking pizza
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                            yeap Ed, dinner for one is a challenge, it just ain't fun cooking for yourself, and doing stuff that ain't fun is a real challenge for me...

                            now baking pizza for 80 is daunting.. i have never done sg like this.. the most is bake 12 pizzas for school bake sales but that only takes sg like 2 kilos of flour, not 15 and i have never used the oven where we will be so this is going to be a bunch of firsts. i look forward to it...

                            as for you trip report.. i had overlooked your original post on the trip when i wrote asking you about how it was... but at least i got to read two reports on the same trip, always interesting..

                            as for the material, i am sure the book will have more than enough info, just i was hoping to get info on those materials ASAP so i could try and make a hammock for this 4 day kindergartner camp out, pizza, hike shebang... but if i do not, that is not a big deal .... i will have all the more time to deal with it after the bake...


                            robi

                            At 10:51 AM 6/10/03 -0400, you wrote:
                            Pizza for 80 is quite an untaking Robi!  Hope it goes well.  And I think fixing dinner for one is a challenge!
                             
                            My hike was great--turned into more of an adventure than I expected. Heavy rains on day 2 & 3 really flooded the mountain streams and sent me on a detour. I did wade several streams up to my waist (normal crossings were only ankle deep), but wisely left the trail to avoid about 10 more upcoming crossings.  Still finished the 50 mile hike early.
                            A hammock with a large tarp like mine is ideal for these conditions!
                             
                            As for suitable hammock fabrics, the book has some good suggestions....Ed
                             
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: robi dawson [mailto:beanco@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:12 AM
                            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Hammock Camping utterly amazed I am
                            ed,

                            first, how was the hike?

                            secondly, thank you for you kind letter! It always amazes me to see how
                            friendly and helpful ppl can be when you approach them with an idea like
                            mine. the list of donations you provided is utterly amazing.



                            As for the book, no worries, when it gets here i will devour it and
                            translate a summary of it for the teachers at the school.

                            As for the materials i mentioned in my message below. i found a person who
                            is interested in donating 3 meters of them, i.e. if ppl here can tell me
                            enough about the quality then he will buy them for me. He is afraid of
                            donating anything that may not be safe, which i find quite understandable.

                            I thought I would ask on the list and if anybody knows about the material
                            they could give me some advice, then i could use the stuff for a hammock
                            with the kindergarten camping trip this coming weekend and show all those
                            4-6 years olds how to live luxuriously while in the woods.... Get to make
                            them pizza in the brick oven at the campsite, can't wait, baking for 80 ppl
                            should be fun!

                            Again, thanks everybody.

                            Robi

                            PS. no need to worry about the measurements i use both the US and the
                            metric regularly, for tempatures for instance i do not even bother with
                            conversion charts i just estimate, same for km - miles or vice versa,
                            kilos-pounds no problem... in fact i am so used to it i often forget to
                            convert from one to the other when sending measurements to friends who use
                            only one of the systems...

                            But yes, i think the US should convert, the metric system is just so darn
                            simple and logical, a stroke of genius if you ask me. But changing to
                            different systems is not easy, hard for many to let go of the *old* way....
                            which is understandable.





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                            hammockcamping-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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                          • Rick
                            Robi, Below is a link that has a picture of the overhand knot - simplest of all knots. Also I included a link to a site with lots of nice pictures of
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                              Robi,

                              Below is a link that has a picture of the overhand knot - simplest of
                              all knots. Also I included a link to a site with lots of nice
                              pictures of different knots... but it does not work from this
                              computer at this time. Looks pretty likely to be useful though:

                              http://www.scoutingresources.org.uk/downloads/knots_overhand.pdf

                              http://www.realknots.com/knots/stoppers.htm

                              Am I a scientist? Well.. I am a generalist. Yes I have some
                              scientific training and do research. That and being an aviator is
                              what the Air Force is paying me for at the moment. I am also a
                              licensed physician with two specialities, a shepherd, a kayaker, a
                              hiker, a biker, an electical engineer, a musician who regularly plays
                              two instruments on a weekly basis (Tuba and Bassoon - different
                              nights for all you critics) and a sometimes irritating
                              father/husband/son/friend.

                              Unfortunately, I have problems keeping focused.

                              The real reason I like anatomic measurement, Robi, is that I like
                              thinking about things from lots of unusual perspectives; sort
                              of "drawing outside the lines thinking" as our saying puts it.

                              Of course, you know that; I camp hanging from trees.

                              Rick

                              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, robi dawson <beanco@m...>
                              wrote:
                              > Rick,
                              >
                              > you are a scientist, right? if so, i find it even more intriguing
                              that you
                              > like anatomic measurements....
                              >
                              > all that about the inch was interesting.. i will see what i can
                              find out
                              > about the Hungarian... that grain of barley part sounds familiar
                              for some
                              > reason...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Robi
                              >
                              > ps, i hope we are not boring anyone with this discussion...
                              >
                              > oh. yea i have been meaning to ask what is an overhand knot? better
                              yet,
                              > could you point me out to a knot site that might have it and other
                              > cool/useful knots to learn?
                              >
                              > thanks
                            • robi dawson
                              thanks for the links rick, again you came through.... i thought that s what an over hand knot was, now i know! i will check out your site in more detail next
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 10, 2003
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                                thanks for the links rick, again you came through....

                                i thought that's what an over hand knot was, now i know!

                                i will check out your site in more detail next time i have a chance and see all the stuff you do.. i have already seen the kayaks and skin on frame canoe section, nice stuff, and of course your hammock stuff....

                                thanks again,

                                robi

                                At 04:46 PM 6/10/03 +0000, you wrote:
                                Robi,

                                Below is a link that has a picture of the overhand knot - simplest of
                                all knots.  Also I included a link to a site with lots of nice
                                pictures of different knots...  but it does not work from this
                                computer at this time.  Looks pretty likely to be useful though:

                                http://www.scoutingresources.org.uk/downloads/knots_overhand.pdf

                                http://www.realknots.com/knots/stoppers.htm

                                Am I a scientist?  Well.. I am a generalist.  Yes I have some
                                scientific training and do research.  That and being an aviator is
                                what the Air Force is paying me for at the moment.  I am also a
                                licensed physician with two specialities, a shepherd, a kayaker, a
                                hiker, a biker, an electical engineer, a musician who regularly plays
                                two instruments on a weekly basis (Tuba and Bassoon - different
                                nights for all you critics) and a sometimes irritating
                                father/husband/son/friend.

                                Unfortunately, I have problems keeping focused.

                                The real reason I like anatomic measurement, Robi, is that I like
                                thinking about things from lots of unusual perspectives; sort
                                of "drawing outside the lines thinking" as our saying puts it.

                                Of course, you know that; I camp hanging from trees.

                                Rick

                                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, robi dawson <beanco@m...>
                                wrote:
                                > Rick,
                                >
                                > you are a scientist, right? if so, i find it even more intriguing
                                that you
                                > like anatomic measurements....
                                >
                                > all that about the inch was interesting.. i will see what i can
                                find out
                                > about the Hungarian... that grain of barley part sounds familiar
                                for some
                                > reason...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Robi
                                >
                                > ps, i hope we are not boring anyone with this discussion...
                                >
                                > oh. yea i have been meaning to ask what is an overhand knot? better
                                yet,
                                > could you point me out to a knot site that might have it and other
                                > cool/useful knots to learn?
                                >
                                > thanks


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                              • Matthew Takeda
                                Dunno if you guys would find this interesting or not, but I compiled it a few years ago from various sources. Took me a while to remember where I put the file.
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 13, 2003
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                                  Dunno if you guys would find this interesting or not, but I compiled it a few years ago from various sources. Took me a while to remember where I put the file.
                                  Length
                                  Digit     the width of a finger, 0.75 inch
                                  Inch      width of a thumb, Norman/Anglo-Saxon 3 barleycorns
                                  Nail      length of the last two joints of the middle finger, 3 digits or 2.25 inches
                                  Palm      width of the palm, 3 inches
                                  Hand      4 inches
                                  Shaftment         width of the hand and outstretched thumb, 2 palms or 6 inches, Anglo-Saxon 6.5 inches
                                  Span      width of the outstretched hand, from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger, 3 palms or 9 inches
                                  Foot      Roman 12 inches, Norman 36 barleycorns, Anglo-Saxon 2 shaftments, pes naturalis, an actual foot length, about 9.8 inches
                                  Yard      Norman 108 barleycorns, distance from the tip of the nose to the end of the middle finger of the outstretched hand
                                  Cubit     length of the forearm, 18 inches
                                  Fathom   arm span from one fingertip to the other
                                  Gyrd or Rod       Anglo-Saxon 20 natural feet, Norman 5.5 yards (16.5 feet)
                                  Stadium   Roman 625 feet (shorter than English feet)
                                  Furlong (fuhrlang)        Anglo-Saxon 40 rods
                                  Mile      Roman 1000 paces (~5,000 feet) or 8 stadia, British 8 furlongs/1,760 yards/5,280 feet
                                  League    the distance a person could walk in an hour. Ancient Celtic unit (about 1.5 Roman miles, roughly 1.4 statute miles, 2275 meters) adopted by the Romans as the leuga. In many cases 3 miles, using whatever version of the mile was current. At sea, 3 nautical miles (1/20 degree, 3.45 statute miles, exactly 5556 meters). US and Britain 3 statute miles on land or 3 nautical miles at sea. However, many occurrances of the "league" in English-language works are actually references to the Spanish league (the legua), the Portuguese league (legoa) or the French league (lieue). Legoa, Portuguese league, 3 milhas (Portuguese miles)(about 3.836 statute miles, 6174.1 meters). Legua, Spanish league, 5000 varas (close to 2.6 miles, 4.2 km). Using the Texas definition of the vara, 2.6305 miles, 13,889 feet, 4,233.4 m. Using the traditional Spanish definition, 2.597 miles, 13,712 feet, or 4,179.4 m. Abolished by Philip II in 1568, remained in wide use, especially in the Americas. Late 18th and early 19th centuries, a league of 8000 varas (4.15 miles or 6680 meters) was legal in Spain. At sea, Spanish sailors used the usual marine league (3 nautical miles or 5,556 meters) or Philip V's "geographical" league of 1/17.5 degree (3.429 nm, 6,350.5 m). Used informally in Argentina and in other Spanish-speaking countries as a metric unit equal to exactly 5 kilometers (3.107 miles). Lieue, French league: a variety of lieue units were used for land measurement in France, but generally these units were around 2.4-2.5 statute miles in length. In the 18th century, the legal unit was the lieue de poste, defined to equal 2000 toises or 2 milles (2.4221 miles, 3,898 meters). In metric France the lieue is now considered to equal exactly 4 kilometers (2.4855 miles). At sea, the lieue was often taken to equal 1/25 degree or 2.4 nautical miles (4,445 meters, 2.7619 miles), gradually replaced by the internationally recognized 3 nautical miles.

                                  Area
                                  Acre      (French journal, German morgen/tagwerk) 1 furlong (40 rods) X 4 rods. 10 = 1 square furlong, 640 = 1 square mile.

                                  Weight
                                  Troy
                                  Grain     Anglo-Saxon 1 barleycorn
                                  Scruple   20 grains, 1/3 troy ounce (approx. 1.2960 gm) from the Latin scrupulus, meaning a small, sharp stone. Similar to French and Russian scrupule, Italian scrupolo, and German skrupul are equal to 20 of the local unit corresponding to the grain and all are equivalent to something in the range 1.1-1.3 grams.
                                  Pennyweight       Anglo-Saxon weight of a penny/24 grains
                                  Dram      60 grains, 3 scruples, 1/8 troy ounce (approx. 3.8879 gm, about 2.1943 avoirdupois drams) Italian dramma 72 grani (approx. 3.5 gm)
                                  Ounce     Anglo-Saxon 480 grains/20 pennyweights
                                  Pound     Anglo-Saxon 12 ounces/5,760 grains

                                  Avoirdupois
                                  Grain     Anglo-Saxon 1 barleycorn
                                  Dram      1/256 pound /1/16 ounce/27.34375 grains (about 1.7718 gm), from Latin dragma, from Greek drachme: handful. The word is usually spelled "drachm" in Britain and "dram" in the United States, but both spellings are pronounced "dram."
                                  Ounce     1/16 pound/437.5 grains
                                  Pound     16 ounces/7,000 grains
                                  Clove     7 pounds
                                  Stone     14 pounds
                                  Quarter   28 pounds
                                  Hundredweight     British 112 pounds. Equivalent to  German zentner, French quintal. US (British cental) 100 pounds
                                  Barrel    commercial, varying with the commodity being measured. In the U.S., for example, a barrel of flour traditionally holds 196 pounds (88.90 kg) and a barrel of beef, fish, or pork 200 pounds (90.72 kg). A barrel of cement is traditionally equal to 4 bags, which is 376 pounds (170.55 kg) in the U.S. and 350 pounds (158.76 kg) in Canada.
                                  Ton       20 hundredweight, British (long) 2,240 pounds, US (short) 2,000 pounds



                                  Volume
                                  fluid scruple     British 1/3 fluidram (about 1.1839 ml)
                                  Fluid dram or fluidram (fl dr)    apothecary. 1/8 fluid ounce, US 3.696 691 ml, British imperial 3.551 633 ml
                                  Ounce     volume of 1 ounce of water (approx.), British imperial 28.413 063 ml, US 29.573 531 ml, 8 fluid drams
                                  Pint      1/2 quart, British imperial 20 ounces, US 16 ounces
                                  Quart     ¼ gallon
                                  Gallon    Anglo-Saxon volume of 8 pounds of wheat dry, otherwise varied by type of liquid. British imperial volume of 10 pounds of water under specified conditions, 277.42 cubic inches. US 231 cubic inches liquid (British wine gallon), US 268.8 cubic inches dry (British corn gallon)
                                  Peck      2 gallons dry
                                  Bushel    4 pecks dry
                                  Kilderkin         British 1/2 barrel, 2 firkins. For the current British barrel, 18 imperial gallons, 2.9 cubic feet, 78 liters (older kilderkins were generally in the range of 16-18 gallons). From Dutch “small cask”
                                  Barrel US 31.5 gallons (about 4.211 cubic feet or 119.24 l) (same as the traditional British wine barrel). British imperial 36 imperial gallons (about 5.780 cubic feet, 163.66 l). Traditional British beer and ale barrel, 5.875 cubic feet, 166.36 l. There are other official barrels, defined in certain U.S. states; most of them fall in the general range of 30-40 gallons. A barrel of beer in the U.S., for example, is usually 31 U.S. gallons (117.35 liters). The origin of the standard symbol bbl is not clear. The "b" may have been doubled originally to indicate the plural (1 bl, 2 bbl), or possibly it was doubled to eliminate any confusion with bl as a symbol for the bale. By international agreement a barrel of petroleum, bo (barrel of oil), equals 42 US gallons (about 158.987 l), same size as the traditional tierce, a wine barrel. US dry barrel 105 dry quarts (about 4.083 cubic feet, 115.63 l) (This is the only case in the United States customary system where a dry volume is less than the corresponding fluid volume.) For certain commodities, other sizes are traditional in the U.S.; for example, a barrel of sugar was traditionally 5 cubic feet (about 141.58 liters).
                                  Tierce    old English unit 1/3 butt, 42 US gallons, almost exactly 159 liters. The name of the unit is French; it is derived from the Latin tertius meaning 1/3.
                                  Hogshead          traditional unit of volume for liquids. Originally varied with the contents, often being equal to 48 gallons of ale; 54 of beer; 60 of cider; 63 of oil, honey, or wine; or 100 of molasses. US 2 barrels, or 63 gallons (traditional British wine hogshead)(exactly 14,553 cubic inches, about 8.422 cubic feet, 238.48 l). British imperial 1/2 butt, 52.5 imperial gallons, 8.429 cubic feet, 238.67 l
                                  Butt      traditional unit of volume used for wines and other alcoholic beverages, 2 hogsheads. US typically 126 gallons (about 16.844 cubic feet, 476.96 l). British imperial butt of beer is 108 imperial gallons (about 17.339 cubic feet, 490.98 l). The word comes from the Roman buttis, a large cask for wine.



                                  Japanese

                                  Mô        approx. 0.030303… (i.e., 1?33) mm (about 0.0012 inch)
                                  Rin       10 mo, 10/33 mm (about 0.303 mm or 0.012 inch)
                                  Bu        10 rin, 3 1/33 mm (approximately 0.11939 inches)
                                  Sun       10 bu, 3 1/33 cm (about 3.03 cm or 1.193 inches).  See kujira shaku sun for the slightly longer sun used in measuring cloth.
                                  Shaku     10 sun, "measure" or "scale", 10/33 m (1891), about 30.30 centimeters or 11.93 inches , “Japanese foot.” The second shaku was a unit of length legal only for cloth, by a law of 1881 125/330 m (37.878... cm, or about 14.9130 inches). When it is necessary to distinguish the two units, the unit for cloth is called kujirajaku and the other kanejaku. “Kane” means “metal,” so kanejaku is a metal shaku. “Kujira” means “whale” (hence kujirajaku is a “whale shaku”) because rulers for measuring cloth were made from whale whiskers.
                                  Ken       6 shaku, exactly 20/11 meters (1891) (about 1.818 m, 5.965 feet, 1.99 yards), length of a traditional tatami mat. At sea, hiro, “Japanese fathom.”
                                  Jô        10 shaku, 1-2/3 ken, approx. 3.0303… (i.e., 100?
                                  33) m (about 3.314 yards)
                                  Chô       36 jo, 60 ken, 109 1/11 (i.e., 1200/11, or about 109.1) meters
                                  Ri        36 cho, 1,296 jo, 2,160 ken/ 12,960 shaku, 3.92727… (that is, 3 51/55) km, 3,927 m, 2.44 statute miles, “Japanese league”
                                  Kai-ri or Ri marin        (“marine ri”) name for the international nautical mile





                                  Square Shaku      0.091827 square m (approximately 0.988 square feet) or 1/100 tsubo, about 0.033058 square m, 330.6 square cm, about 0.356 square feet, 51.24 square inches
                                  Tsubo (or bu)     1 sq ken, 36 sq shaku, 3.306 sq m, 35.38sq feet
                                  Se        30 tsubo, 99.175 sq m, 118.61sq yards
                                  Tan       10 se, 0.099ha, 991.74 sq m, 0.245a, 1,186.11 sq yd
                                  Chou      10 tan,   0.992ha, 2.451a





                                  Mô        approx. 3.75 mg
                                  Rin       10 mo, 37.5 mg
                                  Bu        10 rin, 0.375gm, 5.787gr
                                  Momme     10 bu, 3.750gm, 57.870gr, 0.132 oz
                                           160 momme, 600.00gm, 1.323lb
                                           1,000 momme, 3.75kg, 8.27lb(*2)

                                  Shaku     1/100th shô, exactly 24,010/1,331 ml (1891), 18.039ml, 0.033 pt (dry), 0.610 fl
                                  oz, about 1.101 cubic inches,
                                  Go        10 shaku, 180.39ml, 0.328 pt (dry), 6.100 floz
                                  Sho       10 go, 1.8039l, 1.638 qt (dry), 1.906 qt (liquid)
                                  To        10 sho, 18.039l, 2.48 pk, 4.766 gal
                                  Koku      10 to, 180.39l, 5.119 bu, 47.655 ga

                                  - Matthew Takeda
                                  - the JOAT
                                • karens62@aol.com
                                  Thanks, that was pretty interesting! Karen
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 15, 2003
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                                    <<Dunno if you guys would find this interesting or no>>

                                    Thanks, that was pretty interesting!

                                    Karen
                                  • Rick
                                    Very, very cool. Rick ... compiled it a ... where I put ... digits or ... or 6 ... to the ... shaftments, ... to the ... feet) ... unit ... adopted by ...
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                      Very, very cool.

                                      Rick

                                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Takeda <takeda@s...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Dunno if you guys would find this interesting or not, but I
                                      compiled it a
                                      > few years ago from various sources. Took me a while to remember
                                      where I put
                                      > the file.
                                      > Length
                                      > Digit the width of a finger, 0.75 inch
                                      > Inch width of a thumb, Norman/Anglo-Saxon 3 barleycorns
                                      > Nail length of the last two joints of the middle finger, 3
                                      digits or
                                      > 2.25 inches
                                      > Palm width of the palm, 3 inches
                                      > Hand 4 inches
                                      > Shaftment width of the hand and outstretched thumb, 2 palms
                                      or 6
                                      > inches, Anglo-Saxon 6.5 inches
                                      > Span width of the outstretched hand, from the tip of the thumb
                                      to the
                                      > tip of the little finger, 3 palms or 9 inches
                                      > Foot Roman 12 inches, Norman 36 barleycorns, Anglo-Saxon 2
                                      shaftments,
                                      > pes naturalis, an actual foot length, about 9.8 inches
                                      > Yard Norman 108 barleycorns, distance from the tip of the nose
                                      to the
                                      > end of the middle finger of the outstretched hand
                                      > Cubit length of the forearm, 18 inches
                                      > Fathom arm span from one fingertip to the other
                                      > Gyrd or Rod Anglo-Saxon 20 natural feet, Norman 5.5 yards (16.5
                                      feet)
                                      > Stadium Roman 625 feet (shorter than English feet)
                                      > Furlong (fuhrlang) Anglo-Saxon 40 rods
                                      > Mile Roman 1000 paces (~5,000 feet) or 8 stadia, British 8
                                      > furlongs/1,760 yards/5,280 feet
                                      > League the distance a person could walk in an hour. Ancient Celtic
                                      unit
                                      > (about 1.5 Roman miles, roughly 1.4 statute miles, 2275 meters)
                                      adopted by
                                      > the Romans as the leuga. In many cases 3 miles, using whatever
                                      version of
                                      > the mile was current. At sea, 3 nautical miles (1/20 degree, 3.45
                                      statute
                                      > miles, exactly 5556 meters). US and Britain 3 statute miles on land
                                      or 3
                                      > nautical miles at sea. However, many occurrances of the "league" in
                                      > English-language works are actually references to the Spanish
                                      league (the
                                      > legua), the Portuguese league (legoa) or the French league (lieue).
                                      Legoa,
                                      > Portuguese league, 3 milhas (Portuguese miles)(about 3.836 statute
                                      miles,
                                      > 6174.1 meters). Legua, Spanish league, 5000 varas (close to 2.6
                                      miles, 4.2
                                      > km). Using the Texas definition of the vara, 2.6305 miles, 13,889
                                      feet,
                                      > 4,233.4 m. Using the traditional Spanish definition, 2.597 miles,
                                      13,712
                                      > feet, or 4,179.4 m. Abolished by Philip II in 1568, remained in
                                      wide use,
                                      > especially in the Americas. Late 18th and early 19th centuries, a
                                      league of
                                      > 8000 varas (4.15 miles or 6680 meters) was legal in Spain. At sea,
                                      Spanish
                                      > sailors used the usual marine league (3 nautical miles or 5,556
                                      meters) or
                                      > Philip V's "geographical" league of 1/17.5 degree (3.429 nm,
                                      6,350.5 m).
                                      > Used informally in Argentina and in other Spanish-speaking
                                      countries as a
                                      > metric unit equal to exactly 5 kilometers (3.107 miles). Lieue,
                                      French
                                      > league: a variety of lieue units were used for land measurement in
                                      France,
                                      > but generally these units were around 2.4-2.5 statute miles in
                                      length. In
                                      > the 18th century, the legal unit was the lieue de poste, defined to
                                      equal
                                      > 2000 toises or 2 milles (2.4221 miles, 3,898 meters). In metric
                                      France the
                                      > lieue is now considered to equal exactly 4 kilometers (2.4855
                                      miles). At
                                      > sea, the lieue was often taken to equal 1/25 degree or 2.4 nautical
                                      miles
                                      > (4,445 meters, 2.7619 miles), gradually replaced by the
                                      internationally
                                      > recognized 3 nautical miles.
                                      >
                                      > Area
                                      > Acre (French journal, German morgen/tagwerk) 1 furlong (40 rods)
                                      X 4
                                      > rods. 10 = 1 square furlong, 640 = 1 square mile.
                                      >
                                      > Weight
                                      > Troy
                                      > Grain Anglo-Saxon 1 barleycorn
                                      > Scruple 20 grains, 1/3 troy ounce (approx. 1.2960 gm) from the
                                      Latin
                                      > scrupulus, meaning a small, sharp stone. Similar to French and
                                      Russian
                                      > scrupule, Italian scrupolo, and German skrupul are equal to 20 of
                                      the local
                                      > unit corresponding to the grain and all are equivalent to something
                                      in the
                                      > range 1.1-1.3 grams.
                                      > Pennyweight Anglo-Saxon weight of a penny/24 grains
                                      > Dram 60 grains, 3 scruples, 1/8 troy ounce (approx. 3.8879 gm,
                                      about
                                      > 2.1943 avoirdupois drams) Italian dramma 72 grani (approx. 3.5 gm)
                                      > Ounce Anglo-Saxon 480 grains/20 pennyweights
                                      > Pound Anglo-Saxon 12 ounces/5,760 grains
                                      >
                                      > Avoirdupois
                                      > Grain Anglo-Saxon 1 barleycorn
                                      > Dram 1/256 pound /1/16 ounce/27.34375 grains (about 1.7718 gm),
                                      from
                                      > Latin dragma, from Greek drachme: handful. The word is usually
                                      spelled
                                      > "drachm" in Britain and "dram" in the United States, but both
                                      spellings are
                                      > pronounced "dram."
                                      > Ounce 1/16 pound/437.5 grains
                                      > Pound 16 ounces/7,000 grains
                                      > Clove 7 pounds
                                      > Stone 14 pounds
                                      > Quarter 28 pounds
                                      > Hundredweight British 112 pounds. Equivalent to German zentner,
                                      French
                                      > quintal. US (British cental) 100 pounds
                                      > Barrel commercial, varying with the commodity being measured. In
                                      the U.S.,
                                      > for example, a barrel of flour traditionally holds 196 pounds
                                      (88.90 kg)
                                      > and a barrel of beef, fish, or pork 200 pounds (90.72 kg). A barrel
                                      of
                                      > cement is traditionally equal to 4 bags, which is 376 pounds
                                      (170.55 kg) in
                                      > the U.S. and 350 pounds (158.76 kg) in Canada.
                                      > Ton 20 hundredweight, British (long) 2,240 pounds, US (short)
                                      2,000 pounds
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Volume
                                      > fluid scruple British 1/3 fluidram (about 1.1839 ml)
                                      > Fluid dram or fluidram (fl dr) apothecary. 1/8 fluid ounce, US
                                      3.696 691
                                      > ml, British imperial 3.551 633 ml
                                      > Ounce volume of 1 ounce of water (approx.), British imperial
                                      28.413 063
                                      > ml, US 29.573 531 ml, 8 fluid drams
                                      > Pint 1/2 quart, British imperial 20 ounces, US 16 ounces
                                      > Quart ¼ gallon
                                      > Gallon Anglo-Saxon volume of 8 pounds of wheat dry, otherwise
                                      varied by
                                      > type of liquid. British imperial volume of 10 pounds of water under
                                      > specified conditions, 277.42 cubic inches. US 231 cubic inches
                                      liquid
                                      > (British wine gallon), US 268.8 cubic inches dry (British corn
                                      gallon)
                                      > Peck 2 gallons dry
                                      > Bushel 4 pecks dry
                                      > Kilderkin British 1/2 barrel, 2 firkins. For the current
                                      British
                                      > barrel, 18 imperial gallons, 2.9 cubic feet, 78 liters (older
                                      kilderkins
                                      > were generally in the range of 16-18 gallons). From Dutch "small
                                      cask"
                                      > Barrel US 31.5 gallons (about 4.211 cubic feet or 119.24 l) (same
                                      as the
                                      > traditional British wine barrel). British imperial 36 imperial
                                      gallons
                                      > (about 5.780 cubic feet, 163.66 l). Traditional British beer and
                                      ale
                                      > barrel, 5.875 cubic feet, 166.36 l. There are other official
                                      barrels,
                                      > defined in certain U.S. states; most of them fall in the general
                                      range of
                                      > 30-40 gallons. A barrel of beer in the U.S., for example, is
                                      usually 31
                                      > U.S. gallons (117.35 liters). The origin of the standard symbol bbl
                                      is not
                                      > clear. The "b" may have been doubled originally to indicate the
                                      plural (1
                                      > bl, 2 bbl), or possibly it was doubled to eliminate any confusion
                                      with bl
                                      > as a symbol for the bale. By international agreement a barrel of
                                      petroleum,
                                      > bo (barrel of oil), equals 42 US gallons (about 158.987 l), same
                                      size as
                                      > the traditional tierce, a wine barrel. US dry barrel 105 dry quarts
                                      (about
                                      > 4.083 cubic feet, 115.63 l) (This is the only case in the United
                                      States
                                      > customary system where a dry volume is less than the corresponding
                                      fluid
                                      > volume.) For certain commodities, other sizes are traditional in
                                      the U.S.;
                                      > for example, a barrel of sugar was traditionally 5 cubic feet
                                      (about 141.58
                                      > liters).
                                      > Tierce old English unit 1/3 butt, 42 US gallons, almost exactly
                                      159
                                      > liters. The name of the unit is French; it is derived from the
                                      Latin
                                      > tertius meaning 1/3.
                                      > Hogshead traditional unit of volume for liquids. Originally
                                      varied
                                      > with the contents, often being equal to 48 gallons of ale; 54 of
                                      beer; 60
                                      > of cider; 63 of oil, honey, or wine; or 100 of molasses. US 2
                                      barrels, or
                                      > 63 gallons (traditional British wine hogshead)(exactly 14,553 cubic
                                      inches,
                                      > about 8.422 cubic feet, 238.48 l). British imperial 1/2 butt, 52.5
                                      imperial
                                      > gallons, 8.429 cubic feet, 238.67 l
                                      > Butt traditional unit of volume used for wines and other
                                      alcoholic
                                      > beverages, 2 hogsheads. US typically 126 gallons (about 16.844
                                      cubic feet,
                                      > 476.96 l). British imperial butt of beer is 108 imperial gallons
                                      (about
                                      > 17.339 cubic feet, 490.98 l). The word comes from the Roman buttis,
                                      a large
                                      > cask for wine.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Japanese
                                      >
                                      > Mô approx. 0.030303… (i.e., 1?33) mm (about 0.0012 inch)
                                      > Rin 10 mo, 10/33 mm (about 0.303 mm or 0.012 inch)
                                      > Bu 10 rin, 3 1/33 mm (approximately 0.11939 inches)
                                      > Sun 10 bu, 3 1/33 cm (about 3.03 cm or 1.193 inches). See
                                      kujira shaku
                                      > sun for the slightly longer sun used in measuring cloth.
                                      > Shaku 10 sun, "measure" or "scale", 10/33 m (1891), about 30.30
                                      > centimeters or 11.93 inches , "Japanese foot." The second shaku was
                                      a unit
                                      > of length legal only for cloth, by a law of 1881 125/330 m
                                      (37.878... cm,
                                      > or about 14.9130 inches). When it is necessary to distinguish the
                                      two
                                      > units, the unit for cloth is called kujirajaku and the other
                                      kanejaku.
                                      > "Kane" means "metal," so kanejaku is a metal shaku. "Kujira"
                                      means "whale"
                                      > (hence kujirajaku is a "whale shaku") because rulers for measuring
                                      cloth
                                      > were made from whale whiskers.
                                      > Ken 6 shaku, exactly 20/11 meters (1891) (about 1.818 m, 5.965
                                      feet,
                                      > 1.99 yards), length of a traditional tatami mat. At sea,
                                      hiro, "Japanese
                                      > fathom."
                                      > Jô 10 shaku, 1-2/3 ken, approx. 3.0303… (i.e., 100?33) m
                                      (about 3.314
                                      > yards)
                                      > Chô 36 jo, 60 ken, 109 1/11 (i.e., 1200/11, or about 109.1)
                                      meters
                                      > Ri 36 cho, 1,296 jo, 2,160 ken/ 12,960 shaku, 3.92727… (that
                                      is, 3
                                      > 51/55) km, 3,927 m, 2.44 statute miles, "Japanese league"
                                      > Kai-ri or Ri marin ("marine ri") name for the international
                                      nautical mile
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Square Shaku 0.091827 square m (approximately 0.988 square feet)
                                      or
                                      > 1/100 tsubo, about 0.033058 square m, 330.6 square cm, about 0.356
                                      square
                                      > feet, 51.24 square inches
                                      > Tsubo (or bu) 1 sq ken, 36 sq shaku, 3.306 sq m, 35.38sq feet
                                      > Se 30 tsubo, 99.175 sq m, 118.61sq yards
                                      > Tan 10 se, 0.099ha, 991.74 sq m, 0.245a, 1,186.11 sq yd
                                      > Chou 10 tan, 0.992ha, 2.451a
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Mô approx. 3.75 mg
                                      > Rin 10 mo, 37.5 mg
                                      > Bu 10 rin, 0.375gm, 5.787gr
                                      > Momme 10 bu, 3.750gm, 57.870gr, 0.132 oz
                                      > 160 momme, 600.00gm, 1.323lb
                                      > 1,000 momme, 3.75kg, 8.27lb(*2)
                                      >
                                      > Shaku 1/100th shô, exactly 24,010/1,331 ml (1891), 18.039ml,
                                      0.033 pt
                                      > (dry), 0.610 floz, about 1.101 cubic inches,
                                      > Go 10 shaku, 180.39ml, 0.328 pt (dry), 6.100 floz
                                      > Sho 10 go, 1.8039l, 1.638 qt (dry), 1.906 qt (liquid)
                                      > To 10 sho, 18.039l, 2.48 pk, 4.766 gal
                                      > Koku 10 to, 180.39l, 5.119 bu, 47.655 ga
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > - Matthew Takeda
                                      > - the JOAT
                                    • takeda
                                      ... Thanks. Now that I look at it, I notice that I forgot to put in chains. Surveys used to be made with the surveyor s (or Gunter s) chain. A chain is 66 ft.
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jun 17, 2003
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Rick wrote:
                                        > Very, very cool.

                                        Thanks. Now that I look at it, I notice that I forgot to put in chains.
                                        Surveys used to be made with the surveyor's (or Gunter's) chain. A chain
                                        is 66 ft. in length (or four rods) and divided into 100 links of 7.92
                                        inches. On a surveyor's chain, the links are made of a straight piece of
                                        iron or steel wire with a ring at each end. There were normally tally tags
                                        attached every 10 links (to assist in the measurements) and a triangular
                                        handle at each end of the chain to hold it.

                                        The use of a chain for measuring was first recorded in 1579. Edmund Gunter
                                        (1581-1626), an English mathematician, designed his chain to be 66 ft.
                                        long so that 10 square chains should equal one acre. Even though it was
                                        still used into the early 1900's, the chain was heavy and clumsy,
                                        difficult to stretch tight and straight, and changed its length rapidly
                                        from wear. The steel tape measure was patented in the US in 1867 and
                                        replaced the chain altogether in the early 1900s.

                                        I went to high school in Lodi, California. Lodi (originally Mokelumne) was
                                        built by the railroad, apparently to spite the owner of nearby Wood's
                                        Ferry (now Woodbridge), who wanted too high a price to use his property
                                        for a train station. The surveyors started out at the northeast corner of
                                        the new town and worked their way south and east, laying out streets as
                                        they went. Although the original town was only about six blocks by six
                                        blocks or so, their chains stretched so much during the survey that Lodi
                                        Avenue, at the south end of the old town, is about 30 yards further south
                                        at the west end of the original survey area than it is at the railroad
                                        tracks.

                                        - Matthew
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