Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Hi, I'm new here...

Expand Messages
  • Jeff Ross
    I just found this group and joined up. I have been backpacking and hammock-sleeping for about 25 years. Until last year all I had was a big nylon net hammock,
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 24 12:44 PM
      I just found this group and joined up. I have been backpacking and
      hammock-sleeping for about 25 years. Until last year all I had was a
      big nylon net hammock, a thermarest pad, and a tarp strung overhead.
      It worked ok but was heavy and the lack of a mosquito net was always
      an issue. So I bought a Hennessy hammock last September and took it
      on a weeklong backpack elk bowhunt in the Gila Wilderness of New
      Mexico. What a wonderful place! We hiked about 6 miles into the
      wilderness and camped up on a ridge overlooking the Middle Fork of
      the Gila River. We saw some elk, got no shots, and got rained on a
      lot. That solved our water problem, but everything sure got wet.
      Except my bed, that is. The Hennessy hammock was dry and
      comfortable, but that's because there wasn't much wind with the
      rain. I need to upgrade my rain fly. The one that came with it
      is "sil-nylon" or some such. It's a quality fly and should last
      forever, but to replace it with the same thing only bigger is going
      to cost about $130. They have a pvc coated nylon fly that's a lot
      cheaper, but I think the pvc will just wear off and it will be
      worthless before long. Any knowledge that could be passed on about
      that would be appreciated.

      I'm getting to be an old fart (57), but am still in pretty good
      shape. But that backpack trip kinda kicked my butt. I couldn't get
      my pack under 40lb. I even left out my old sneakers that I would
      normally use for making stream crossings, to save 2 lb. Then I had
      to make 9 stream crossings in my bare feet, to keep my boots dry.
      Then the boots got soaked anyway because of all the rain. As I was
      hiking back out I decided what I needed was a pack animal to carry
      my stuff. Looked into mules and burros (expensive to buy, maintain,
      haul around, they are stupid and dangerous, and will run off and
      leave you out there), llamas (expensive and don't like to work), and
      finally settled on goats (cheap, friendly like dogs, love to go
      places, want to hang out with you so they won't run off, and one
      goat can carry 40-50lb). So I got 3 little billy goats from a local
      dairy and am raising them up to be packgoats. They need to
      be "fixed" so they don't stink and try to hump everything. The idea
      with 3 of them is 2 to carry the basic gear for 2 people, and the
      third as a spare or to carry luxuries (extra water, beer, lawn
      chairs, steaks, etc.). We'll see how it goes. So far it's a hoot! If
      anybody is interested in this, here is a yahoo group that's all
      about it:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/packgoat/
    • RevT
      I guess a bonus would be the Mtn Lion would go after your goat first, not you. How do you keep them while your out hunting? How do you protect them? I hada
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 24 12:55 PM
        I guess a bonus would be the Mtn Lion would go after your goat first, not you.

        How do you keep them while your out hunting? How do you protect them?

        I hada goat growing up. Pretty Cool animals.

        Brian


        > goat can carry 40-50lb). So I got 3 little billy goats from a local
        > dairy and am raising them up to be packgoats.
      • Jeff Ross
        You are right about mountain lions being something to worry about. Coyotes, wolves, bears, and especially dogs too. You have to keep them close to you. They
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 24 2:16 PM
          You are right about mountain lions being something to worry about.
          Coyotes, wolves, bears, and especially dogs too. You have to keep them
          close to you. They will naturally stick pretty close to you, probably
          because they know they are prey animals and you are their protection.
          I have already had two close calls with dogs while I was out hiking
          with them. One was a pit bull that was so focused on the goats he
          didn't see my boot coming. The other was chasing the goats and got
          whacked across the head with my walking stick. He changed his mind
          pronto, and now probably thinks that goats look like fun but they can
          sure hurt your head. From reading books and posts on the packgoat
          group I see that some guys actually let them tag along while they
          hunt. The goats don't seem to spook elk and deer. Maybe they just see
          another 4x4 animal and don't worry about it. If you don't want them
          with you you can leave them high-lined in camp. But somebody should be
          in camp with them just to make sure they don't get tangled up or a
          predator doesn't come calling. Another good thing about goats,
          compared to mules etc., is that they are pretty self sufficient. They
          will eat weeds of all kinds, twigs, pine needles, leaves, grass, most
          anything. So they don't have to carry food for themselves. Mules and
          horses eat mostly grass, and lots of it. That can be a problem because
          that's what cows eat too, and it can get scarce. Especially in places
          where other people camp with horses. Goats also need a lot less water.


          I thought mules, horses, and such would be invulnerable to predators,
          but a friend of mine has a friend who had his mule tied to a tree. A
          bull elk came along, picked a fight with it, and killed it.



          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RevT <brian.tannehill@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I guess a bonus would be the Mtn Lion would go after your goat
          first, not you.
          >
          > How do you keep them while your out hunting? How do you protect them?
          >
          > I hada goat growing up. Pretty Cool animals.
          >
          > Brian
          >
          >
          > > goat can carry 40-50lb). So I got 3 little billy goats from a
          local
          > > dairy and am raising them up to be packgoats.
          >
        • RevT
          Thanks for the info. Goats are pretty cheap to buy as well, if I recall. How much space do they need to live back at your house? Of course you could always get
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 24 2:59 PM
            Thanks for the info. Goats are pretty cheap to buy as well, if I
            recall. How much space do they need to live back at your house? Of
            course you could always get goats milk too....

            I had a goat like I said before growing up. It did eat everything. It
            would even somehow jump into our 55 gal burning can (where we burned
            our trash) and eat the trash. It was almost like having just antother
            pet around. It and the Lab we had got along great. We didnt have to
            mow very much because of her either.

            I do know that if you run cows and goats together, you dont have any
            problems with fleas and ticks.

            I would be worried about having them out for overnighters though. Sure
            would need some kind of protection for them from the wild animals.

            Brian

            > You are right about mountain lions being something to worry about.
            > Coyotes, wolves, bears, and especially dogs too. You have to keep them
            > close to you.
          • Jeff Ross
            I m not sure how much is the minimum space they need. I ve only had these guys for 4 months so I m still on a steep learning curve. My 3 guys have a pen that s
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 24 3:44 PM
              I'm not sure how much is the minimum space they need. I've only had
              these guys for 4 months so I'm still on a steep learning curve. My 3
              guys have a pen that's about 30'x30'. That's plenty of room for
              them. They also have a shelter (about 10'x10') that's open to the
              south so the sun will shine in during the winter. I have 4 acres of
              land where I take them out to eat weeds several times a week. But
              you can just feed them hay. Where I live there are coyotes around,
              and they've killed my chickens before. So I wove a bunch of sticks
              into the fence wire to make it about 8'high, then wound some barbed
              wire up in that. It looks like a POW camp, but it's kept the coyotes
              out.

              Predators are definitely a concern with the goats. Most people
              camping with them let them stay pretty close to where the people are
              sleeping. They just rig a tarp for them and goats bed down under
              that. A good watchdog or two is also a big advantage. My dog (Heeler
              x German Shepherd) really hates coyotes and will take off after them
              if he smells them. But a mountain lion would just eat him. I have
              never had a problem with predators in all the years I have been
              camping in the National Forests and BLM land here in New Mexico.
              They are certainly around, but I think they avoid people. Unlike
              National Parks and suburban areas where they get used to lots of
              docile, harmless people, easy food (kitty cats, garbage, etc), and
              no hunters, these predators have learned to fear people.

              One problem with the goats is that they are curious and nosey. They
              will invade your tent, root thru your pack and eat your groceries,
              chew up your maps, and get your underwear tangled up in their horns
              if you let them. Some people keep them highlined while in camp, but
              I've found that a shot of water in the face from a squirt bottle
              will discourage any bad behavior. They are really fun animals too.
              They are smart so they learn things easily. They are affectionate,
              have few health problems, and need very little in the way of vet
              services (unless they get injured, of course). But like any animals,
              they take a real commitment. You don't just park them and forget
              them until you want to use them again.


              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RevT <brian.tannehill@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the info. Goats are pretty cheap to buy as well, if I
              > recall. How much space do they need to live back at your house? Of
              > course you could always get goats milk too....
              >
              > I had a goat like I said before growing up. It did eat everything.
              It
              > would even somehow jump into our 55 gal burning can (where we
              burned
              > our trash) and eat the trash. It was almost like having just
              antother
              > pet around. It and the Lab we had got along great. We didnt have to
              > mow very much because of her either.
              >
              > I do know that if you run cows and goats together, you dont have
              any
              > problems with fleas and ticks.
              >
              > I would be worried about having them out for overnighters though.
              Sure
              > would need some kind of protection for them from the wild animals.
              >
              > Brian
              >
              > > You are right about mountain lions being something to worry
              about.
              > > Coyotes, wolves, bears, and especially dogs too. You have to
              keep them
              > > close to you.
              >
            • Rat
              Hey Jeff, you are going to LOVE your goats! I have two Alpines, brother and sister, and they are my best friends on my hunting trips. I usually hunt in
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 25 9:32 AM
                Hey Jeff, you are going to LOVE your goats! I have two Alpines,
                brother and sister, and they are my best friends on my hunting
                trips. I usually hunt in Colorado with a friend of mine (we are bow
                hunters) and the two packers are perfect for us as we try to go as
                light as possible. But when hunting some of the gear is just heavy,
                no matter what. Here are some of the things I have learned over the
                years. Not in any order really.

                1) Carry all your emergency gear ON YOUR PERSON! If you have all
                your gear on one goat and he goes over a cliff or runs off you could
                be in serious trouble. I always carry my emergency kit in a lumbar
                pack separate from my main pack. This way when I remove the
                backpack, for deep water crossing or whatever, I always have the
                emergency pack with me.

                2) When hiking @ home with the boys I always carry my UDAP bear
                spray. A hiking pole can, and will, work but you get a little better
                distance from the UDAP and it works great on dogs. Of course I carry
                it in the back country as well.

                3) All my panniers are Blaze Orange. Even on home hikes they wear a
                Blaze Orange vest when they are young, it's just easier to keep
                track of them that way.

                4) I do pitch a trap just for them but they usually end up under my
                hammock tarp anyway. If a reall long rain sets in I will stake them
                under their own tarp so I can have my room. But otherwise they sleep
                with me.

                5) You don't need a guard dog just for the goats. They will let you
                know if ANYTHING is close to camp. You just have to pay attention to
                their body language. If they both stand at attention, looking the
                same direction, ears forward not moving a muscel, there is something
                overthere! If it gets too close they will be behind/under you for
                protection. To them, you are the Protector, and they will let you
                know when they are scared.

                6) Take a lead rope. I don't use one on the trail. But, on the trail
                head/logging road, I use one if there are other people and animals
                around. A lead rope can also be a great tool for deep water
                crossings. My boys hate water much past their hooves, so getting
                them accross deep water usually requires a lead rope. I use Poly
                straps, big surprise there eh?

                7) @ home the paddock only needs to be 10 X 10 foot for each goat,
                with a shelter and clean water. However, when they are full grown
                200 pound goats they will need to be exercised often in a pen this
                size. It is big enoough for then to live in but they will get fat
                and lazy if you don't watch it. Plus, the home hikes are just plain
                fun.

                8) When we hit the trail here is how we pack. Darrin and I usually
                carry a full pack, 20-25 pounds, maybe a little more depending on
                the temps. The boys carry all the extra stuff needed for hunting.
                Arrows, bows, optics, calls, field dressing cutlery, extra ropes and
                straps...you get the idea. This way the bi-peds are self sufficient
                if something were to happen to the quad-peds. Sure we wouldn't be
                able to hunt, but we could spend time looking for the goat(s) if we
                needed to or whatever. They usually have around 25-30 pounds on the
                trip in, each. Where they really shine is once you have an animal
                ready to pack out. At just over 200 pounds my boys can carry 60
                pounds very easily. with Darrin and I each carrying around 50 or so
                pounds we can usually pack an Elk out in two trips. The second trip
                being lighter than the first, and no one is ever overloaded.

                9) I usually take the boys with me when I go hunting. There is some
                concern as to wether this is an unethical advantage when hunting.
                But I don't think so really. They COULD be used to gain an unethical
                advantage, but so could horse and mules that others hunt from.
                Still, it is best to ask the Rangers or Game officials in your area
                to see if it is 1) Legal and 2) allowed (some areas don't allow
                domestic goats or sheep). They wear their Blaze Orange vests or the
                light "dog" packs when we hunt. Since we hunt in the bow season I
                don't think the Blaze Orange is necessary but, I can see them easier
                and it reduces the risk of someone accusing me of using live decoys
                (which is illegal).

                10) Have fun! Train them right and they will be your best friends on
                the trail. You will constantly amaze people you meet. Especially
                other packers (horse/mule/llama).

                A typical start to a hunt is like this. At the end of the logging
                road we park the truck. Usually there are a couple other trucks with
                trailers, we have no trailer. The boys ride in the back of the
                truck, I have a camper shell on it. We usually greet everyone, find
                out hunting locations etc. Then, I open the back of the truck,
                camper door and tailgate, stick the ramp on and out come the boys.
                That's usually when the snickering and head shaking starts.
                Everything is pre-weighed and bundled at the house. So the panniers
                go on and then the gear goes on/in. I lead the boys around the truck
                and up and down the ramp a few times to make sure everything is
                tight and not shifting. We lock the truck and leave. About 45 min to
                one hour total. The horse and mule guys are still saddling or
                packing panniers when we start down the trail. That's when we
                snicker and shake our heads.:)

                Rat

                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
                <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'm not sure how much is the minimum space they need. I've only
                had
                > these guys for 4 months so I'm still on a steep learning curve. My
                3
                > guys have a pen that's about 30'x30'. That's plenty of room for
                > them. They also have a shelter (about 10'x10') that's open to the
                > south so the sun will shine in during the winter. I have 4 acres
                of
                > land where I take them out to eat weeds several times a week. But
                > you can just feed them hay. Where I live there are coyotes around,
                > and they've killed my chickens before. So I wove a bunch of sticks
                > into the fence wire to make it about 8'high, then wound some
                barbed
                > wire up in that. It looks like a POW camp, but it's kept the
                coyotes
                > out.
                >
                > Predators are definitely a concern with the goats. Most people
                > camping with them let them stay pretty close to where the people
                are
                > sleeping. They just rig a tarp for them and goats bed down under
                > that. A good watchdog or two is also a big advantage. My dog
                (Heeler
                > x German Shepherd) really hates coyotes and will take off after
                them
                > if he smells them. But a mountain lion would just eat him. I have
                > never had a problem with predators in all the years I have been
                > camping in the National Forests and BLM land here in New Mexico.
                > They are certainly around, but I think they avoid people. Unlike
                > National Parks and suburban areas where they get used to lots of
                > docile, harmless people, easy food (kitty cats, garbage, etc), and
                > no hunters, these predators have learned to fear people.
                >
                > One problem with the goats is that they are curious and nosey.
                They
                > will invade your tent, root thru your pack and eat your groceries,
                > chew up your maps, and get your underwear tangled up in their
                horns
                > if you let them. Some people keep them highlined while in camp,
                but
                > I've found that a shot of water in the face from a squirt bottle
                > will discourage any bad behavior. They are really fun animals too.
                > They are smart so they learn things easily. They are affectionate,
                > have few health problems, and need very little in the way of vet
                > services (unless they get injured, of course). But like any
                animals,
                > they take a real commitment. You don't just park them and forget
                > them until you want to use them again.
                >
                >
                > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RevT <brian.tannehill@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks for the info. Goats are pretty cheap to buy as well, if I
                > > recall. How much space do they need to live back at your house?
                Of
                > > course you could always get goats milk too....
                > >
                > > I had a goat like I said before growing up. It did eat
                everything.
                > It
                > > would even somehow jump into our 55 gal burning can (where we
                > burned
                > > our trash) and eat the trash. It was almost like having just
                > antother
                > > pet around. It and the Lab we had got along great. We didnt have
                to
                > > mow very much because of her either.
                > >
                > > I do know that if you run cows and goats together, you dont have
                > any
                > > problems with fleas and ticks.
                > >
                > > I would be worried about having them out for overnighters
                though.
                > Sure
                > > would need some kind of protection for them from the wild
                animals.
                > >
                > > Brian
                > >
                > > > You are right about mountain lions being something to worry
                > about.
                > > > Coyotes, wolves, bears, and especially dogs too. You have to
                > keep them
                > > > close to you.
                > >
                >
              • Jeff Ross
                Thanks for the feedback and the knowledge, Rat. I already love my goats. They are a lot of fun. Except for this morning, that is. They were scheduled to go to
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 25 12:35 PM
                  Thanks for the feedback and the knowledge, Rat. I already love my
                  goats. They are a lot of fun. Except for this morning, that is. They
                  were scheduled to go to the vet to their huevos removed. Following
                  the orders of the vet, I had given them breakfast yesterday morning
                  and nothing since. Well they didn't like being hungry so they got
                  into the feed room area (almost certainly my fault for not latching
                  the gate properly) and got themselves some breakfast this morning.
                  They knocked over the grain can, ate what they wanted there, and had
                  themselves some hay too. They were all smiles when I went out there
                  and saw what they had done. They couldn't understand why I was so
                  upset. So I've had to reschedule them for Wednesday. I've been
                  watching them and they don't seem to be bloated or anything. Maybe
                  they had enough sense to stop eating the grain before it would cause
                  any problems. I know I would have a very sick cow on my hands right
                  now if one of them had done the same thing.

                  Where do you get those orange vests for your boys? I have seen "goat
                  coats" for sale but they seem to be a bit of overkill if all you
                  want is visibility. My boys are still pretty small so I don't want
                  to invest in expensive stuff they are going to outgrow. I bought
                  a "visibility collar" for each of them from Butt-Head Packgoat
                  Products

                  (http://pages.prodigy.net/mastergoatlady/_wsn/page2.html)

                  that may work ok. It's a big fl. orange sleeve that slides over
                  their collar. They shouldn't outgrow those. They only cost $5 each.
                  But 2 of my boys are colored just like elk, so I would like to make
                  them as orange as possible.

                  The way I excercise my goats is to take them out in the woods to
                  browse and hike around. I live in the mountains near Albuquerque and
                  the forest here is really overgrown with oak, juniper, and ponderosa
                  pine. We've had a really good monsoon this summer so everything is
                  green and flowery too. The goat boys love that stuff. What's really
                  fun is to take my 11 year old nephew along with his bow (30lb
                  recurve) and a couple of rubber blunt tipped arrows. We take turns
                  with the bow and wander around shooting pine cones, stumps, etc.
                  while the goats tag around with us chowing down on the underbrush.
                  Life doesn't get much better than that! In the cold months we hunt
                  rabbits too, with very little success I might add. I would take my
                  bow too, but I have my hands full with the goats when we first leave
                  the truck.

                  Are you a member of the yahoo packgoats group? Would it be ok if I
                  copied your message over there?


                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Rat" <hogn8r2004@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey Jeff, you are going to LOVE your goats! I have two Alpines,
                  > brother and sister, and they are my best friends on my hunting
                  > trips. I usually hunt in Colorado with a friend of mine (we are
                  bow
                  > hunters) and the two packers are perfect for us as we try to go as
                  > light as possible. But when hunting some of the gear is just
                  heavy,
                  > no matter what. Here are some of the things I have learned over
                  the
                  > years. Not in any order really.
                  >
                  > 1) Carry all your emergency gear ON YOUR PERSON! If you have all
                  > your gear on one goat and he goes over a cliff or runs off you
                  could
                  > be in serious trouble. I always carry my emergency kit in a lumbar
                  > pack separate from my main pack. This way when I remove the
                  > backpack, for deep water crossing or whatever, I always have the
                  > emergency pack with me.
                  >
                  > 2) When hiking @ home with the boys I always carry my UDAP bear
                  > spray. A hiking pole can, and will, work but you get a little
                  better
                  > distance from the UDAP and it works great on dogs. Of course I
                  carry
                  > it in the back country as well.
                  >
                  > 3) All my panniers are Blaze Orange. Even on home hikes they wear
                  a
                  > Blaze Orange vest when they are young, it's just easier to keep
                  > track of them that way.
                  >
                  > 4) I do pitch a trap just for them but they usually end up under
                  my
                  > hammock tarp anyway. If a reall long rain sets in I will stake
                  them
                  > under their own tarp so I can have my room. But otherwise they
                  sleep
                  > with me.
                  >
                  > 5) You don't need a guard dog just for the goats. They will let
                  you
                  > know if ANYTHING is close to camp. You just have to pay attention
                  to
                  > their body language. If they both stand at attention, looking the
                  > same direction, ears forward not moving a muscel, there is
                  something
                  > overthere! If it gets too close they will be behind/under you for
                  > protection. To them, you are the Protector, and they will let you
                  > know when they are scared.
                  >
                  > 6) Take a lead rope. I don't use one on the trail. But, on the
                  trail
                  > head/logging road, I use one if there are other people and animals
                  > around. A lead rope can also be a great tool for deep water
                  > crossings. My boys hate water much past their hooves, so getting
                  > them accross deep water usually requires a lead rope. I use Poly
                  > straps, big surprise there eh?
                  >
                  > 7) @ home the paddock only needs to be 10 X 10 foot for each goat,
                  > with a shelter and clean water. However, when they are full grown
                  > 200 pound goats they will need to be exercised often in a pen this
                  > size. It is big enoough for then to live in but they will get fat
                  > and lazy if you don't watch it. Plus, the home hikes are just
                  plain
                  > fun.
                  >
                  > 8) When we hit the trail here is how we pack. Darrin and I usually
                  > carry a full pack, 20-25 pounds, maybe a little more depending on
                  > the temps. The boys carry all the extra stuff needed for hunting.
                  > Arrows, bows, optics, calls, field dressing cutlery, extra ropes
                  and
                  > straps...you get the idea. This way the bi-peds are self
                  sufficient
                  > if something were to happen to the quad-peds. Sure we wouldn't be
                  > able to hunt, but we could spend time looking for the goat(s) if
                  we
                  > needed to or whatever. They usually have around 25-30 pounds on
                  the
                  > trip in, each. Where they really shine is once you have an animal
                  > ready to pack out. At just over 200 pounds my boys can carry 60
                  > pounds very easily. with Darrin and I each carrying around 50 or
                  so
                  > pounds we can usually pack an Elk out in two trips. The second
                  trip
                  > being lighter than the first, and no one is ever overloaded.
                  >
                  > 9) I usually take the boys with me when I go hunting. There is
                  some
                  > concern as to wether this is an unethical advantage when hunting.
                  > But I don't think so really. They COULD be used to gain an
                  unethical
                  > advantage, but so could horse and mules that others hunt from.
                  > Still, it is best to ask the Rangers or Game officials in your
                  area
                  > to see if it is 1) Legal and 2) allowed (some areas don't allow
                  > domestic goats or sheep). They wear their Blaze Orange vests or
                  the
                  > light "dog" packs when we hunt. Since we hunt in the bow season I
                  > don't think the Blaze Orange is necessary but, I can see them
                  easier
                  > and it reduces the risk of someone accusing me of using live
                  decoys
                  > (which is illegal).
                  >
                  > 10) Have fun! Train them right and they will be your best friends
                  on
                  > the trail. You will constantly amaze people you meet. Especially
                  > other packers (horse/mule/llama).
                  >
                  > A typical start to a hunt is like this. At the end of the logging
                  > road we park the truck. Usually there are a couple other trucks
                  with
                  > trailers, we have no trailer. The boys ride in the back of the
                  > truck, I have a camper shell on it. We usually greet everyone,
                  find
                  > out hunting locations etc. Then, I open the back of the truck,
                  > camper door and tailgate, stick the ramp on and out come the boys.
                  > That's usually when the snickering and head shaking starts.
                  > Everything is pre-weighed and bundled at the house. So the
                  panniers
                  > go on and then the gear goes on/in. I lead the boys around the
                  truck
                  > and up and down the ramp a few times to make sure everything is
                  > tight and not shifting. We lock the truck and leave. About 45 min
                  to
                  > one hour total. The horse and mule guys are still saddling or
                  > packing panniers when we start down the trail. That's when we
                  > snicker and shake our heads.:)
                  >
                  > Rat
                  >
                  > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
                  > <jlross_tijeras@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I'm not sure how much is the minimum space they need. I've only
                  > had
                  > > these guys for 4 months so I'm still on a steep learning curve.
                  My
                  > 3
                  > > guys have a pen that's about 30'x30'. That's plenty of room for
                  > > them. They also have a shelter (about 10'x10') that's open to
                  the
                  > > south so the sun will shine in during the winter. I have 4 acres
                  > of
                  > > land where I take them out to eat weeds several times a week.
                  But
                  > > you can just feed them hay. Where I live there are coyotes
                  around,
                  > > and they've killed my chickens before. So I wove a bunch of
                  sticks
                  > > into the fence wire to make it about 8'high, then wound some
                  > barbed
                  > > wire up in that. It looks like a POW camp, but it's kept the
                  > coyotes
                  > > out.
                  > >
                  > > Predators are definitely a concern with the goats. Most people
                  > > camping with them let them stay pretty close to where the people
                  > are
                  > > sleeping. They just rig a tarp for them and goats bed down under
                  > > that. A good watchdog or two is also a big advantage. My dog
                  > (Heeler
                  > > x German Shepherd) really hates coyotes and will take off after
                  > them
                  > > if he smells them. But a mountain lion would just eat him. I
                  have
                  > > never had a problem with predators in all the years I have been
                  > > camping in the National Forests and BLM land here in New Mexico.
                  > > They are certainly around, but I think they avoid people. Unlike
                  > > National Parks and suburban areas where they get used to lots of
                  > > docile, harmless people, easy food (kitty cats, garbage, etc),
                  and
                  > > no hunters, these predators have learned to fear people.
                  > >
                  > > One problem with the goats is that they are curious and nosey.
                  > They
                  > > will invade your tent, root thru your pack and eat your
                  groceries,
                  > > chew up your maps, and get your underwear tangled up in their
                  > horns
                  > > if you let them. Some people keep them highlined while in camp,
                  > but
                  > > I've found that a shot of water in the face from a squirt bottle
                  > > will discourage any bad behavior. They are really fun animals
                  too.
                  > > They are smart so they learn things easily. They are
                  affectionate,
                  > > have few health problems, and need very little in the way of vet
                  > > services (unless they get injured, of course). But like any
                  > animals,
                  > > they take a real commitment. You don't just park them and forget
                  > > them until you want to use them again.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RevT <brian.tannehill@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for the info. Goats are pretty cheap to buy as well, if
                  I
                  > > > recall. How much space do they need to live back at your
                  house?
                  > Of
                  > > > course you could always get goats milk too....
                  > > >
                  > > > I had a goat like I said before growing up. It did eat
                  > everything.
                  > > It
                  > > > would even somehow jump into our 55 gal burning can (where we
                  > > burned
                  > > > our trash) and eat the trash. It was almost like having just
                  > > antother
                  > > > pet around. It and the Lab we had got along great. We didnt
                  have
                  > to
                  > > > mow very much because of her either.
                  > > >
                  > > > I do know that if you run cows and goats together, you dont
                  have
                  > > any
                  > > > problems with fleas and ticks.
                  > > >
                  > > > I would be worried about having them out for overnighters
                  > though.
                  > > Sure
                  > > > would need some kind of protection for them from the wild
                  > animals.
                  > > >
                  > > > Brian
                  > > >
                  > > > > You are right about mountain lions being something to worry
                  > > about.
                  > > > > Coyotes, wolves, bears, and especially dogs too. You have
                  to
                  > > keep them
                  > > > > close to you.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Brona Clontz
                  Hi Jeff, I ve probably seen you on the goat site. We also have 2 goats that are in training for backpacking. We have taken them on several trips already and
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 25 5:57 PM
                    Hi Jeff,
                    I've probably seen you on the goat site. We also have 2 goats that are in training for backpacking. We have taken them on several trips already and planning for a 500 miler next spring, if all things workout. Our boys are just over 5 months and early training is essential, especially with the water training.
                    Yes, it is a great way to go. We are looking forward to being able to carry along a few more luxury items.
                    Brona


                    "May the bright light within you guide your way home!"

                    "Pure love is matchless in majesty; it has no parallel in power and there is no darkness it cannot dispel."
                    --Meher Baba--



                    ---------------------------------
                    All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Rat
                    Hey Jeff, Yes I am a member of the Packgoat group, just not very active I am afraid. But please fell free to copy and paste my post over there. I make the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 25 8:39 PM
                      Hey Jeff, Yes I am a member of the Packgoat group, just not very
                      active I am afraid. But please fell free to copy and paste my post
                      over there.

                      I make the "safety vests" for them. they are very similar to the
                      safety vests by Butt-Head you posted, except that the material
                      doesn't go all the way around the front. I use a thin piece of
                      grossgrain ribbon instead. I also use small velcro squares to hold
                      it on. That way if they ever got hung-up in brush by the vest the
                      velcro will break free easily and not keep them trapped. I use
                      regular 1.9oz rip-stop nylon uncoated for the vests.

                      I exercise mine pretty similar, but I also take them to parks and
                      along the road side. Parks gets them used to other people and
                      animals and the roadside gets them used to traffic noises and stuff.
                      Sometimes we go into town, about two miles away, and get groceries,
                      it usually takes much longer because of the socializing, and the
                      feed store is right accross the street. :)

                      They are in Colorado right now, already working for the season. I am
                      going to miss the Co. hunt this year, but my boys aren't.

                      I love stump shooting with my bow, and pine cones are the best, they
                      explode! Sounds like your nephew is on the right track.

                      And just to keep this on topic, Dum once ate about six feet of one
                      of my hammock straps. Didn't seem to faze him a bit. I hope your
                      boys are okay from the grain. They are amazing critters.

                      Rat

                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
                      <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks for the feedback and the knowledge, Rat. I already love my
                      > goats. They are a lot of fun. Except for this morning, that is.
                      They
                      > were scheduled to go to the vet to their huevos removed. Following
                      > the orders of the vet, I had given them breakfast yesterday
                      morning
                      > and nothing since. Well they didn't like being hungry so they got
                      > into the feed room area (almost certainly my fault for not
                      latching
                      > the gate properly) and got themselves some breakfast this morning.
                      > They knocked over the grain can, ate what they wanted there, and
                      had
                      > themselves some hay too. They were all smiles when I went out
                      there
                      > and saw what they had done. They couldn't understand why I was so
                      > upset. So I've had to reschedule them for Wednesday. I've been
                      > watching them and they don't seem to be bloated or anything. Maybe
                      > they had enough sense to stop eating the grain before it would
                      cause
                      > any problems. I know I would have a very sick cow on my hands
                      right
                      > now if one of them had done the same thing.
                      >
                      > Where do you get those orange vests for your boys? I have
                      seen "goat
                      > coats" for sale but they seem to be a bit of overkill if all you
                      > want is visibility. My boys are still pretty small so I don't want
                      > to invest in expensive stuff they are going to outgrow. I bought
                      > a "visibility collar" for each of them from Butt-Head Packgoat
                      > Products
                      >
                      > (http://pages.prodigy.net/mastergoatlady/_wsn/page2.html)
                      >
                      > that may work ok. It's a big fl. orange sleeve that slides over
                      > their collar. They shouldn't outgrow those. They only cost $5
                      each.
                      > But 2 of my boys are colored just like elk, so I would like to
                      make
                      > them as orange as possible.
                      >
                      > The way I excercise my goats is to take them out in the woods to
                      > browse and hike around. I live in the mountains near Albuquerque
                      and
                      > the forest here is really overgrown with oak, juniper, and
                      ponderosa
                      > pine. We've had a really good monsoon this summer so everything is
                      > green and flowery too. The goat boys love that stuff. What's
                      really
                      > fun is to take my 11 year old nephew along with his bow (30lb
                      > recurve) and a couple of rubber blunt tipped arrows. We take turns
                      > with the bow and wander around shooting pine cones, stumps, etc.
                      > while the goats tag around with us chowing down on the underbrush.
                      > Life doesn't get much better than that! In the cold months we hunt
                      > rabbits too, with very little success I might add. I would take my
                      > bow too, but I have my hands full with the goats when we first
                      leave
                      > the truck.
                      >
                      > Are you a member of the yahoo packgoats group? Would it be ok if I
                      > copied your message over there?
                    • Jeff Ross
                      Did you say you have both a buck (or wether?) and a doe that you pack with? Rat wrote: Hey Jeff, Yes I am a member of the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 26 11:54 AM
                        Did you say you have both a buck (or wether?) and a doe that you pack with?

                        Rat <hogn8r2004@...> wrote: Hey Jeff, Yes I am a member of the Packgoat group, just not very
                        active I am afraid. But please fell free to copy and paste my post
                        over there.

                        I make the "safety vests" for them. they are very similar to the
                        safety vests by Butt-Head you posted, except that the material
                        doesn't go all the way around the front. I use a thin piece of
                        grossgrain ribbon instead. I also use small velcro squares to hold
                        it on. That way if they ever got hung-up in brush by the vest the
                        velcro will break free easily and not keep them trapped. I use
                        regular 1.9oz rip-stop nylon uncoated for the vests.

                        I exercise mine pretty similar, but I also take them to parks and
                        along the road side. Parks gets them used to other people and
                        animals and the roadside gets them used to traffic noises and stuff.
                        Sometimes we go into town, about two miles away, and get groceries,
                        it usually takes much longer because of the socializing, and the
                        feed store is right accross the street. :)

                        They are in Colorado right now, already working for the season. I am
                        going to miss the Co. hunt this year, but my boys aren't.

                        I love stump shooting with my bow, and pine cones are the best, they
                        explode! Sounds like your nephew is on the right track.

                        And just to keep this on topic, Dum once ate about six feet of one
                        of my hammock straps. Didn't seem to faze him a bit. I hope your
                        boys are okay from the grain. They are amazing critters.

                        Rat

                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
                        <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks for the feedback and the knowledge, Rat. I already love my
                        > goats. They are a lot of fun. Except for this morning, that is.
                        They
                        > were scheduled to go to the vet to their huevos removed. Following
                        > the orders of the vet, I had given them breakfast yesterday
                        morning
                        > and nothing since. Well they didn't like being hungry so they got
                        > into the feed room area (almost certainly my fault for not
                        latching
                        > the gate properly) and got themselves some breakfast this morning.
                        > They knocked over the grain can, ate what they wanted there, and
                        had
                        > themselves some hay too. They were all smiles when I went out
                        there
                        > and saw what they had done. They couldn't understand why I was so
                        > upset. So I've had to reschedule them for Wednesday. I've been
                        > watching them and they don't seem to be bloated or anything. Maybe
                        > they had enough sense to stop eating the grain before it would
                        cause
                        > any problems. I know I would have a very sick cow on my hands
                        right
                        > now if one of them had done the same thing.
                        >
                        > Where do you get those orange vests for your boys? I have
                        seen "goat
                        > coats" for sale but they seem to be a bit of overkill if all you
                        > want is visibility. My boys are still pretty small so I don't want
                        > to invest in expensive stuff they are going to outgrow. I bought
                        > a "visibility collar" for each of them from Butt-Head Packgoat
                        > Products
                        >
                        > (http://pages.prodigy.net/mastergoatlady/_wsn/page2.html)
                        >
                        > that may work ok. It's a big fl. orange sleeve that slides over
                        > their collar. They shouldn't outgrow those. They only cost $5
                        each.
                        > But 2 of my boys are colored just like elk, so I would like to
                        make
                        > them as orange as possible.
                        >
                        > The way I excercise my goats is to take them out in the woods to
                        > browse and hike around. I live in the mountains near Albuquerque
                        and
                        > the forest here is really overgrown with oak, juniper, and
                        ponderosa
                        > pine. We've had a really good monsoon this summer so everything is
                        > green and flowery too. The goat boys love that stuff. What's
                        really
                        > fun is to take my 11 year old nephew along with his bow (30lb
                        > recurve) and a couple of rubber blunt tipped arrows. We take turns
                        > with the bow and wander around shooting pine cones, stumps, etc.
                        > while the goats tag around with us chowing down on the underbrush.
                        > Life doesn't get much better than that! In the cold months we hunt
                        > rabbits too, with very little success I might add. I would take my
                        > bow too, but I have my hands full with the goats when we first
                        leave
                        > the truck.
                        >
                        > Are you a member of the yahoo packgoats group? Would it be ok if I
                        > copied your message over there?






                        ---------------------------------
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Rat
                        Yep, A wether and doe, brother and sister. Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle- Dum, Dee and Dum for short. Dum has also been de-horned so they look pretty much identical.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 26 4:32 PM
                          Yep, A wether and doe, brother and sister. Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-
                          Dum, Dee and Dum for short. Dum has also been de-horned so they look
                          pretty much identical. Dum rules the roost but Dee makes him work for
                          it:)

                          Rat

                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Ross <jlross_tijeras@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Did you say you have both a buck (or wether?) and a doe that you
                          pack with?
                        • Jeff Ross
                          I would think that a doe would be a lot of trouble to have as a pack animal. Going into heat, being pregnant, having kids, needing to be milked twice a day,
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 26 6:40 PM
                            I would think that a doe would be a lot of trouble to have as a pack
                            animal. Going into heat, being pregnant, having kids, needing to be
                            milked twice a day, udder dragging thru the rocks and cactus, etc. On
                            the other hand having milk & yogurt when camping could be nice. How
                            you deal with all that?

                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Rat" <hogn8r2004@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Yep, A wether and doe, brother and sister. Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-
                            > Dum, Dee and Dum for short. Dum has also been de-horned so they look
                            > pretty much identical. Dum rules the roost but Dee makes him work
                            for
                            > it:)
                            >
                            > Rat
                            >
                            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Ross <jlross_tijeras@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Did you say you have both a buck (or wether?) and a doe that you
                            > pack with?
                            >
                          • Rat
                            Dee does cycle because she isn t fixed, but with no bucks around to get her pregnant it s all good. Interestingly there are udder protectors made of kevlar and
                            Message 13 of 13 , Sep 27 7:23 AM
                              Dee does cycle because she isn't fixed, but with no bucks around to
                              get her pregnant it's all good. Interestingly there are udder
                              protectors made of kevlar and spectra for nursing goats. So it would
                              be possible to use her even if she were nursing. However, I wouldn't.
                              I will proly never breed her because there are so many good breeders
                              ut there already it is easier to just buy a good goat. I could get her
                              fixed to prevent any surprises, but I haven't had to worry about it
                              yet.

                              But yes, fresh goat milk on the trail would be THE BOMB.

                              Rat

                              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Ross"
                              <jlross_tijeras@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I would think that a doe would be a lot of trouble to have as a pack
                              > animal. Going into heat, being pregnant, having kids, needing to be
                              > milked twice a day, udder dragging thru the rocks and cactus, etc.
                              On
                              > the other hand having milk & yogurt when camping could be nice. How
                              > you deal with all that?
                              >
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.
                            »
                            «