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Four Season Hammocking?

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  • jwj32542
    I wrote up some thoughts on four season hammocking - it s a lot of thoughts that we ve talked about here and on other forums, but surely you guys have some
    Message 1 of 17 , May 10 11:43 AM
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      I wrote up some thoughts on four season hammocking - it's a lot of
      thoughts that we've talked about here and on other forums, but
      surely you guys have some good input. Let's hash it out!

      If we get a good discussion going, maybe I'll edit everything
      together for a newsletter article.

      =====

      "Can a Hammock Make a Good Four Season Shelter?"

      Yes. Well, sort of. It really depends on how you define "four
      seasons" and the backup skills of the hammocker.

      First of all, I think a hammock system can be designed to handle any
      temperatures on earth. Several individuals have successfully
      hammocked in temperatures below zero Fahrenheit, with at least one
      claiming to have slept at -45 F. One night in the Sierras, I was so
      warm at -10 F that I had to vent my sleeping bag down to my waist a
      few times during the night. And my shelter, bag and pad combined
      for a weight of only 7 pounds. So it can be done.

      But four season camping is more than just cold temps. The next
      night, I had to go to ground because the wind was blowing snow under
      my tarp. The tarp was pitched broadside to the wind, low and tight,
      but the snow was still floating up from underneath. Then it landed
      on top of me. If it had melted there, my insulation may have gotten
      wet...bad news in those conditions. The temperature wasn't even as
      low as the previous night, but I still had to go to ground because
      the shelter wasn't adequate. In many locations, winter hammockers
      must be prepared for storms in addition to cold temperatures.

      Other considerations become important for winter hiking, as well.
      Preparing for the worst is an absolute necessity. Consider how you
      would set up your shelter if you lost a mitten. Many hammockers
      enjoy using compressible insulation like underquilts, insulated
      hammocks, or sleeping bags that cover the entire hammock; they
      provide a very comfortable sleeping surface and resolve many of the
      comfort and condensation issues that some people experience with
      pads. However, a lost mitten may lead to frostbite and steal the
      dexterity needed to hang a hammock, so the option of going to ground
      in a waterproof bivy with a thick pad may save a life.

      So why not add a waterproof bivy to a hammock? On my trip in the
      Sierras, a simple water resistant hammock bivy would have surely
      enabled me to stay the night in the hammock. But what if I had to
      hole up the next day? In those winds that topped 100 mph, a
      mountaineering tent with a vestibule suitable for cooking would have
      been necessary to melt snow for drinking water. Creating a tarptent
      large enough to hang a hammock inside is one solution, but even this
      has disadvantages. First, the profile necessary to provide adequate
      coverage is quite large, and the boxy shape does not spill wind as
      efficiently as geodesic mountaineering tents. This can lead to
      shelter failure in high winds – an inconvenience in many conditions,
      but a possible disaster in four season hammocking. Second,
      mountaineering tents generally have a separate vestibule so that
      cooking does not create condensation inside the primary living
      space. A hammock tarptent for four season camping would have to
      accommodate for these issues. Still, the hammock tarptent would
      provide an adequate solution for a range of cold and windy
      conditions.

      Another viable solution is to dig a snow trench between two trees
      and hang the hammock inside the trench. Since a snow shovel is
      standard gear in many winter hiking environments, pitching a tarp
      over a snow trench provides a reliable shelter, albeit with more
      planning and effort than most hammock sites require. However, this
      highlights the next issue: the benefits of hammocking.

      In snowy environments, two of the major benefits of hammocking are
      neutralized. Perhaps the greatest benefit of hammocking is that
      lumpy ground covered with roots and rocks has no effect on the
      hammocker. However, a thick layer of snow provides enough
      cushioning to remove this from consideration. Running a close
      second, the hammocker does not need to look for level ground to set
      up camp; many times I have slept over a steep slope where no tenter
      could be comfortable. Again, since a snow shovel is standard gear,
      cutting a level shelf into most surfaces would not be very
      difficult. Obviously, in fair weather hanging a hammock would
      require much less effort than digging a sleeping shelf with a snow
      shovel, so the hammock retains a slight advantage in that regard.

      So as I said, a hammock can make a safe and effective four season
      shelter in many locations. Current hammock setups can handle a
      range of temperatures and most weather conditions, and having the
      skills to build a snow shelter can make up the difference if a
      severe storm hits and going to ground is an option. For a hammocker
      without these skills, however, I still have not found a commercial
      system that I would feel comfortable using as a stand-alone shelter
      on a winter trip with the possibility of a severe storm. It's a
      very small niche market, but we're getting there.
    • tim garner
      good artical jeff. yep, it may be a small nich, but i think folks are interrested in taking it further all along. improvements have been made this past winter.
      Message 2 of 17 , May 10 6:58 PM
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        good artical jeff. yep, it may be a small nich, but i think folks
        are interrested in taking it further all along. improvements have
        been made this past winter.
        your artical reminded me of a question that`s been in my thoughts
        this year.
        the inflatable air mats have become poupular w/ a lot of folks
        (like me). the expead & stevenson DAMs. and the big agnes insulated
        air mat.
        how about being out on a cold night & the air mat begins to leak.
        i carry the small patch kit, but i supose on a cold night a person
        could have a hard time finding & patching a pin hole.
        i just patched one in my BA insulated air mat today. it was enough
        of a hole that the mat would let me down onto the hammock in an hour
        or so, but i had to put it in the tub w/ water to find it. it was in
        one of the seams that form the channels.
        trying to find natural insulation in bad weather could be bad news.
        so i`ve wondered about taking a small, torso sized CCF pad (6-8
        oz), & also using it as a sit pad.
        thoughts??? ...tim
      • jwj32542
        ... I think that s a good idea. I forgot a sit pad on the Winnemucca trip and didn t want to use the inflatable. In the future, I ll use a torso pad for snow
        Message 3 of 17 , May 10 7:38 PM
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          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@...>
          wrote:
          > so i`ve wondered about taking a small, torso sized CCF pad (6-8
          > oz), & also using it as a sit pad.
          > thoughts??? ...tim

          I think that's a good idea. I forgot a sit pad on the Winnemucca trip
          and didn't want to use the inflatable. In the future, I'll use a
          torso pad for snow trips, no matter what I use for insulation inside
          the hammock. It'll be good backup inside the hammock, too.

          Jeff
        • chcoa
          Hi Tim, I do this. I am tesing the T-REst Women Prolite and while it s comfy and I like using it I don t like how bulky it is as the frame in my backpack so I
          Message 4 of 17 , May 11 4:10 PM
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            Hi Tim,

            I do this. I am tesing the T-REst Women Prolite and while it's comfy
            and I like using it I don't like how bulky it is as the frame in my
            backpack so I bring a CCF pad for that. Also, I don't trust the
            Prolite on the ground here in the desert. Too many prickly things
            out there. I use the CCF pad on the ground and sit on the Prolite
            on top or I just leave it in the hammock so it warm and toasty when
            get in.

            jamie in az

            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > good artical jeff. yep, it may be a small nich, but i think
            folks
            > are interrested in taking it further all along. improvements have
            > been made this past winter.
            > your artical reminded me of a question that`s been in my
            thoughts
            > this year.
            > the inflatable air mats have become poupular w/ a lot of folks
            > (like me). the expead & stevenson DAMs. and the big agnes
            insulated
            > air mat.
            > how about being out on a cold night & the air mat begins to
            leak.
            > i carry the small patch kit, but i supose on a cold night a
            person
            > could have a hard time finding & patching a pin hole.
            > i just patched one in my BA insulated air mat today. it was
            enough
            > of a hole that the mat would let me down onto the hammock in an
            hour
            > or so, but i had to put it in the tub w/ water to find it. it was
            in
            > one of the seams that form the channels.
            > trying to find natural insulation in bad weather could be bad
            news.
            > so i`ve wondered about taking a small, torso sized CCF pad (6-8
            > oz), & also using it as a sit pad.
            > thoughts??? ...tim
            >
          • tim garner
            jamie... yep, the more i think about it, the more i think it would be good to have that ccf as a back-up AND as a sit pad. i can`t always get the others to
            Message 5 of 17 , May 11 7:04 PM
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              jamie... yep, the more i think about it, the more i think it would be
              good to have that ccf as a back-up AND as a sit pad.
              i can`t always get the others to bring there camp chairs over to
              where my hammock is, so i can sit in my hammock while we talk :~(
              ...tim
            • chcoa
              Yeah I have that same problem. What s up with these rude people not being accomodating to MY hammocking needs? hahahaha I guess that means I just need to
              Message 6 of 17 , May 13 5:28 PM
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                Yeah I have that same problem. What's up with these rude people not
                being accomodating to MY hammocking needs? hahahaha

                I guess that means I just need to start hiking with other
                hammockers. :) I'm a bit far away though from most of the gatherings

                jamie in Arizona

                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > jamie... yep, the more i think about it, the more i think it would
                be
                > good to have that ccf as a back-up AND as a sit pad.
                > i can`t always get the others to bring there camp chairs over to
                > where my hammock is, so i can sit in my hammock while we talk :~(
                > ...tim
                >
              • tim garner
                jeff... i was looking at your post again & one of the biggest questions you seem to be looking at is... if a person is going to hammock in locations & seasons
                Message 7 of 17 , May 14 3:09 PM
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                  jeff... i was looking at your post again & one of the biggest
                  questions you seem to be looking at is... if a person is going to
                  hammock in locations & seasons where it`s possible to find yourself
                  in a winter storm (mabey one that would continue for some time), what
                  kind of shelter would really provide that kind of protection?
                  i began to think of some of the shelters that ground dwellers
                  count on for that kind of weather. it seems that one of the lightest
                  four season shelters is a tunnel style tent (like hillenberg, or
                  something like that).
                  anyway, just a beginning thought about a true four season hammock
                  shelter... imagin a silnylon tube with two hoop poles (one near the
                  head end of the hammock & one near the foot end of the hammock).
                  the two trees holding the hammock would provide strong suport at
                  each end. the bottom would be staked. also as many tie-outs as needed
                  from the sides and other points on the tent would be staked in some
                  of the same ways that other four season tents would.
                  a tube of sorts would provide the place where the hammock suport
                  ropes would leave the tent & go to the tree on each end, providing
                  enough loose material to alow the hammock to swing with-out pulling
                  on the taught tent walls.
                  it may be a tube somewhere between the size of a vent tube in a
                  four season tent & a hammock tube. it would probably be adjustable to
                  provide ventilation.
                  of course like any four season tent, it would have several ways to
                  add or close-down ventilation.
                  it could be designed in such a way that the tent body could be used
                  as a tarp, with the additional fabric on the sides & ends rolled or
                  folded, & secured w/ velcro.
                  of course it would add weight, but not much, if any more than a
                  simalar four season tent. and the protection would be there when
                  needed. any thoughts? ...tim
                • jwj32542
                  Tim, That sounds like a workable beginning. For the hole for hammock supports, it could be an 18 hole in the taut tent wall, with a snakeskin sewn to it -
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 14 9:35 PM
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                    Tim,

                    That sounds like a workable beginning. For the hole for hammock
                    supports, it could be an 18" hole in the taut tent wall, with a
                    snakeskin sewn to it - 18" tapering to 1" and about 12" long. That
                    would seal that gap.

                    I think ventilation should come from the entrance or from the
                    bottom - opening it at the hammock support would let in water during
                    rain, and in windblown snow I think spindrift would come in and land
                    on the hammock. If some spindrift comes across the bottom, the rest
                    of the shelter might block enough wind that spindrift doesn't blow
                    up onto the hammock.

                    The other big issue would still be resistance from such a large
                    shelter. The rounded structure of the hoops would be more stable in
                    high winds than a standard tarp, especially if the ends stake out in
                    a vestibule like the Hilleberg tents instead of coming straight down.

                    Assuming it's a floorless tent, the other problem is that if the
                    wind hits it broadside, and some of the wind flows underneath it
                    (b/c that's where the ventilation comes from)...it's shaped exactly
                    like an airplane wing. Fwoom...tent's gone! Or at least flipping
                    around in the wind over the hammock.

                    How to fix it? 1 - Putting in a floor might help some, but without
                    the weight of a person along the length enough wind might blow
                    underneath to create lift.

                    2 - Shoring up the walls each time it's set up might solve the
                    problem in some snow conditions, but with powder the shoring would
                    just blow away. Plus, that would be time consuming for every setup.

                    3 - Hrm...can't think of one right now. Must be some way to fix it,
                    though.

                    Digging a snow trench between the trees and using a smaller shelter
                    would resolve a big part of the problem - smaller profile, and you
                    could make the shoring deep enough so it wouldn't be blown away, but
                    that's still too time consuming for backpacking. Would work great
                    for a base camp, though.

                    Great idea, Tim. A few issues to work out, but I think it's
                    definitely a good place to begin. Anyone else have thoughts?

                    Jeff
                  • tim garner
                    i`ve been out a fair amount of times in the mt rogers area, va, in an exposed campsite using a tent where the winds i`d guess where gusting at times to 40 mph
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 15 4:06 AM
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                      i`ve been out a fair amount of times in the mt rogers area, va, in
                      an exposed campsite using a tent where the winds i`d guess where
                      gusting at times to 40 mph or more, but i`ve not been in the extreams
                      you where in a while back.
                      i know that in the wind we where in it was important to get that
                      tent nailed down good (& quick), but only on a few ocasions did i use
                      the extra guyline tye-outs. of course, like you said, were also quick
                      to put the rest of our gear inside on the tent floor. and back in
                      those days i had way more "stuff" than i really needed, so it did a
                      good job of weighting the tent floor down while i was out & about.
                      so i`m not as familar w/ the true four season tents used in the
                      more extream places. but that would be the place to look for the
                      answers to the anchoring and venting questions.
                      surley there must be ways that smaller tents (even floorless tents)
                      are used in high winds. i`ve herd of others making claims of using
                      tarps in some pretty strong winds. of course sometimes people just
                      do "get away" w/ there set-up, & make it work, but it`s not actualy
                      what you`d want to stake your life on, on a regular basis.
                      anyway, those are good questions that need to be answered
                      realisticly. i`ll look forward to other thoughts. ...tim
                    • Dave Womble
                      ... wrote: Anyone else have thoughts? ... Okay Jeff, I ll play the devil s advocate and challenge using a hammock in full on winter conditions; that ought to
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 15 4:10 AM
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                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jwj32542" <jwj32542@...>
                        wrote:
                        Anyone else have thoughts?
                        >
                        > Jeff
                        >

                        Okay Jeff, I'll play the devil's advocate and challenge using a
                        hammock in full on winter conditions; that ought to get some ideas
                        bouncing around.

                        I don't snow camp and have only been caught out in a few inches of
                        snow from time to time and those were in temperatures well above
                        zero; but certainly no combination of high winds, sub-zero
                        temperatures and or a few feet of snow. But if I did I don't think I
                        would want to be in a hammock and there are several reasons for
                        that... like huge clumps of snow falling all at one time from
                        overhead branches, aerodynamics of shelters for high winds,
                        structural integrity for snow and or ice loads, ropes and webbing or
                        rope freezing to trees, complexity/setup time/take down time dealing
                        with small guylines for tarps, etc. A winter tent gives some amount
                        of protected shelter to move around in extreme winter conditions and
                        you typically carry enough bottom side insulation so that comfort,
                        safety, weight and pack bulk could be in favor of a light-weight
                        winter tent setup.

                        I have a Stephenson 2R tent that weighs about 3 lbs 6 oz in its stuff
                        sack with the stakes I carry for it (I carry 7 manly stakes to handle
                        high winds but if you were shaving ounces you could get by with 3).
                        It doesn't have any floorless part to it (every thing has trade-offs)
                        but it is reasonably light, offers protection from the elements and
                        sets up/comes down without having to handle small lines and such that
                        require enough dexterity to cause you to remove gloves. It will fit
                        two people, but there isn't room to move around or to store
                        everyone's gear that way... but they make one a little larger that
                        will, a 3R, and the 2R has plenty of room for just me and my gear.
                        In winter conditions your ground insulation is likely thick enough to
                        be comfortable and it can be light weight, down air mats (DAMs) are
                        in the 2 pound range. In the winter, tents allow two people to share
                        body heat and socially interact.

                        Youngblood
                      • tim garner
                        that`s a good point about frozen webbing/rope. i`ve been out a time or two when i became a little concerned about frozen knots, and even the plastic fastex
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 15 7:28 AM
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                          that`s a good point about frozen webbing/rope. i`ve been out a
                          time or two when i became a little concerned about frozen knots, and
                          even the plastic fastex type slide buckels dont work when the webbing
                          gets wet, then freezes.
                          but a sulution to that mite be to have the support webbing or rope,
                          wrap one complete wrap around the tree, then both ends of the web/rope
                          continue into the tent through the small hole provided, and make the
                          conection to the hammock (also adjustments) inside the tent.
                          the only part of the suport webbing or rope exposed to snow,
                          freezing rain, etc, would be a simple strait length. it might freeze
                          to the tree in the right conditions, but i belive it could be pulled
                          free, then slaped against the tree to break up the ice on it.
                          ...tim
                        • dlfrost_1
                          ... and ... webbing ... That s why I use lightweight wire-gate carabiners for the winter setup. The webbing straps have a largish loop on one end, are put on
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 17 12:00 AM
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                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@...>
                            wrote:
                            > that`s a good point about frozen webbing/rope. i`ve been out a
                            > time or two when i became a little concerned about frozen knots,
                            and
                            > even the plastic fastex type slide buckels dont work when the
                            webbing
                            > gets wet, then freezes.

                            That's why I use lightweight wire-gate carabiners for the winter
                            setup. The webbing straps have a largish loop on one end, are put on
                            the tree as chokers, and are then run to the hammock/biners. They're
                            tied off to the 'biners with a figure-8 wrap (sort of like the
                            Hennessey one).

                            If they soak and freeze I can just probably just slowly peel off the
                            webbing. And even if they're frozen into a solid lump I just unclip
                            the hammock and run the 'biners back through the loops to get them
                            off the trees. That way freezing won't stop me from packing up and
                            getting on the trail. Later on at a rest break I can lay em out in
                            the sun to melt, or lay the 'biner ends in a creek to defrost,
                            etcetera.

                            Carabiners are stronger more secure than just knots, and when using
                            them you can put up a hammock with gloved hands.

                            Doug Frost
                          • tim garner
                            good thoughts about using caribiners in freezing, wet weather. that brings another question (or two) to mind. 1) when you talked about peeling the webbing
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 17 6:15 AM
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                              good thoughts about using caribiners in freezing, wet weather.
                              that brings another question (or two) to mind.
                              1) when you talked about "peeling" the webbing from the tree, it made me wonder if that could actualy pull some of the bark off a tree in some cases.
                              2) it seems to me that the hollow-braid poly rope might be less problematic in wet, freezing conditions than webbing. i`ve not been there to expereancce this 1st hand, but it seems that the poly rope might retain less water to freeze, so therefore make tying & un-tying knots less of a problem, as well as being less likly to freeze hard to a tree. thoughts? ...tim

                              dlfrost_1 <dlfrost@...> wrote:
                              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@...>
                              wrote:
                              > that`s a good point about frozen webbing/rope. i`ve been out a
                              > time or two when i became a little concerned about frozen knots,
                              and
                              > even the plastic fastex type slide buckels dont work when the
                              webbing
                              > gets wet, then freezes.

                              That's why I use lightweight wire-gate carabiners for the winter
                              setup. The webbing straps have a largish loop on one end, are put on
                              the tree as chokers, and are then run to the hammock/biners. They're
                              tied off to the 'biners with a figure-8 wrap (sort of like the
                              Hennessey one).

                              If they soak and freeze I can just probably just slowly peel off the
                              webbing. And even if they're frozen into a solid lump I just unclip
                              the hammock and run the 'biners back through the loops to get them
                              off the trees. That way freezing won't stop me from packing up and
                              getting on the trail. Later on at a rest break I can lay em out in
                              the sun to melt, or lay the 'biner ends in a creek to defrost,
                              etcetera.

                              Carabiners are stronger more secure than just knots, and when using
                              them you can put up a hammock with gloved hands.

                              Doug Frost






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                            • x-ringguy
                              Has anyone tried double D rings similar to this (http://www.helen2wheels.com/pictures/instructions/27_big.JPG)? I was on a dog sled trip and they were used to
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 17 11:16 AM
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                                Has anyone tried double D rings similar to this
                                (http://www.helen2wheels.com/pictures/instructions/27_big.JPG)? I was
                                on a dog sled trip and they were used to compress the load to the
                                sled. We never had trouble getting them to release.

                                --Mike

                                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "dlfrost_1" <dlfrost@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@>
                                > wrote:
                                > > that`s a good point about frozen webbing/rope. i`ve been out a
                                > > time or two when i became a little concerned about frozen knots,
                                > and
                                > > even the plastic fastex type slide buckels dont work when the
                                > webbing
                                > > gets wet, then freezes.
                                >
                                > That's why I use lightweight wire-gate carabiners for the winter
                                > setup. The webbing straps have a largish loop on one end, are put on
                                > the tree as chokers, and are then run to the hammock/biners. They're
                                > tied off to the 'biners with a figure-8 wrap (sort of like the
                                > Hennessey one).
                                >
                                > If they soak and freeze I can just probably just slowly peel off the
                                > webbing. And even if they're frozen into a solid lump I just unclip
                                > the hammock and run the 'biners back through the loops to get them
                                > off the trees. That way freezing won't stop me from packing up and
                                > getting on the trail. Later on at a rest break I can lay em out in
                                > the sun to melt, or lay the 'biner ends in a creek to defrost,
                                > etcetera.
                                >
                                > Carabiners are stronger more secure than just knots, and when using
                                > them you can put up a hammock with gloved hands.
                                >
                                > Doug Frost
                                >
                              • Johan van Dijk
                                I used double d rings on/for several things/occasions. Not for hammocking though. I never experienced any problems with them. And I have never done any
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 17 1:30 PM
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                                  I used double d rings on/for several things/occasions.

                                  Not for hammocking though. I never experienced any problems with them. And I
                                  have never done any hammocking in conditions discussed before with snow, ice
                                  etc..

                                  so what value is my reply... mmm below 2 cts or ;-)

                                  Grtz Johan


                                  On 5/17/06, x-ringguy <mschnorr@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Has anyone tried double D rings similar to this
                                  > (http://www.helen2wheels.com/pictures/instructions/27_big.JPG)? I was
                                  > on a dog sled trip and they were used to compress the load to the
                                  > sled. We never had trouble getting them to release.
                                  >
                                  > --Mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "dlfrost_1" <dlfrost@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "tim garner" <slowhike@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > > that`s a good point about frozen webbing/rope. i`ve been out a
                                  > > > time or two when i became a little concerned about frozen knots,
                                  > > and
                                  > > > even the plastic fastex type slide buckels dont work when the
                                  > > webbing
                                  > > > gets wet, then freezes.
                                  > >
                                  > > That's why I use lightweight wire-gate carabiners for the winter
                                  > > setup. The webbing straps have a largish loop on one end, are put on
                                  > > the tree as chokers, and are then run to the hammock/biners. They're
                                  > > tied off to the 'biners with a figure-8 wrap (sort of like the
                                  > > Hennessey one).
                                  > >
                                  > > If they soak and freeze I can just probably just slowly peel off the
                                  > > webbing. And even if they're frozen into a solid lump I just unclip
                                  > > the hammock and run the 'biners back through the loops to get them
                                  > > off the trees. That way freezing won't stop me from packing up and
                                  > > getting on the trail. Later on at a rest break I can lay em out in
                                  > > the sun to melt, or lay the 'biner ends in a creek to defrost,
                                  > > etcetera.
                                  > >
                                  > > Carabiners are stronger more secure than just knots, and when using
                                  > > them you can put up a hammock with gloved hands.
                                  > >
                                  > > Doug Frost
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dlfrost_1
                                  ... it made me wonder if that could actualy pull some of the bark off a tree in some cases. I was talking about peeling webbing from itself at the carabiner
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 19 7:29 PM
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                                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, tim garner <slowhike@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > good thoughts about using caribiners in freezing, wet weather.
                                    > that brings another question (or two) to mind.
                                    > 1) when you talked about "peeling" the webbing from the tree,
                                    it made me wonder if that could actualy pull some of the bark off a
                                    tree in some cases.

                                    I was talking about peeling webbing from itself at the carabiner (or
                                    in any other knotting/wrapping solution). Only the smoothest trees
                                    would offer a surface suitable for frozen bark to peel off. Look at
                                    all of the crap that gets on your straps with most trees... I'm not
                                    worried about it at all.

                                    > 2) it seems to me that the hollow-braid poly rope might be
                                    less problematic in wet, freezing conditions than webbing. i`ve
                                    not been there to expereancce this 1st hand, but it seems that the
                                    poly rope might retain less water to freeze, so therefore make tying
                                    & un-tying knots less of a problem, as well as being less likly to
                                    freeze hard to a tree. thoughts? ...tim

                                    That stuff is slicker than poly webbing, so I would expect it to be
                                    more of a hassle. I won't use hollow poly line anyway. Webbing
                                    protects trees without having to be fussed with or checked. (But
                                    we'be been over all that already previously...)

                                    Doug Frost
                                  • Rat
                                    Hey Everyone, been gone for awhile. It s good to see so many new names on the list. Good article jeff. About six months ago while I was trying to build an an
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 22 9:27 PM
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                                      Hey Everyone, been gone for awhile. It's good to see so many new names
                                      on the list. Good article jeff. About six months ago while I was
                                      trying to build an an all-in-one super-duper uber-shelter some of my
                                      designs crossed paths with what you are thinking about for the true
                                      four-season shelter.

                                      First: I live in Central texas and we only have two seasons, Summer
                                      and the few cool weeks :) My primary design objectives were for wet
                                      storms, the big crazy wind, twelve inches of rain in an hour kind. I
                                      ultimately gave up on the uber-shelter because I determined that the
                                      modular style was the way to go. Using stolen designs from Youngblood
                                      and Ray Garlington I am able to stay high and dry in the worst of the
                                      storms. The storms we had a few weeks ago were freaky bad (four days
                                      in a row, no less)and proved very well the weatherability of the set-
                                      up. Although I did have a seam that started leaking after a
                                      particularly bad ten minutes of hail, aboout golfball sized. And you
                                      can forget about sleeping through that!

                                      However, one design that I did incorporate into my set up is called
                                      the "Tunnel of Hate", because you hafta crawl into it. I frequently
                                      hunt Colorado and New Mexico and needed something to use if I were to
                                      be caught out overnight in a snow storm. It is a variation of
                                      Youngbloods' Tarp Shelter. Except it is very low slung and more along
                                      the lines of an A-Frame tarp set up. The ends are sewn closed with a
                                      cone thingy extending out of the top corners for the hammock supports
                                      to pass through. Very similar to what you are thinking of I suspect.
                                      It does not have a floor in it and it would be difficult to put one in
                                      since it is cat cut on all sides. But a straight cut one could be
                                      built to have a floor very easily. My main concern is for wind so I
                                      used cat cut sides and pitch it very low to the ground, the hammock is
                                      just a few inches off of the ground in fact. This piece of gear goes
                                      in my survival kit and is used only when I have to bivuac away from
                                      base camp. The long sloped sides shed wind great but would proly not
                                      shed snow very well. If it was snowing bad I planned on using my bow,
                                      back pack (small framed day pack) and arrows to bolster the sides to
                                      keep them from collapsing from the weight of the snow.

                                      I will put up a JPEG in the files section to show you kinda what I
                                      mean. Adding a cooking area would be very easy as well. I never
                                      considered this as my main meals while away from camp are jerked meats
                                      and gorp.

                                      The file will be called tunnel of hate.

                                      Rat

                                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jwj32542" <jwj32542@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I wrote up some thoughts on four season hammocking - it's a lot of
                                      > thoughts that we've talked about here and on other forums, but
                                      > surely you guys have some good input. Let's hash it out!
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