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RE: [Hammock Camping] Re: Winter Snow Protection - Bug Net?

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  • Ed Speer
    Variations in how gear works for different people or in changing weather conditions-no, tell me it s not true!! LOL OK, Youngblood s right of course. I just
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 27, 2006
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      Variations in how gear works for different people or in changing weather
      conditions-no, tell me it's not true!! LOL



      OK, Youngblood's right of course. I just wanted to add that Youngblood & I
      were together Wednesday night testing some new gear and part of the
      discussions focused on exactly the effects of changing weather over the
      course of the night-cold 25 mph winds dropped to 5 mph over the course of
      the night. Being tightly bundled up for the strong winds was not suitable
      later when they stopped, even tho the temps continued to drop.



      I've just acquired an accurate temperature probe and a humidity/dew point
      measuring device to try & document the various hammock/gear environments.
      Not sure this will answer the sticky problem of how to avoid condensation,
      but maybe I can put some numbers to the issue. I know Rick has done some
      temperature measurements with his infrared thermometer, but has anyone tried
      to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the hammock
      or inside their gear? ..Ed



      Moderator, Hammock Camping List
      Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide

      Editor, Hammock Camping News

      Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



      _____

      From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of Dave Womble
      Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:49 AM
      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: {Spam?} [Hammock Camping] Re: Winter Snow Protection - Bug Net?



      I've had the same experience with bugnets on hammocks where
      condensation collected, and if it was cold enough it was frozen. I've
      also had experiences where the bugnet came in handy as it significantly
      reduced the effects of pesky cold winds. We all know that conditions
      are not always the same when we camp outdoors, but sometimes we seem to
      forget that and expect out gear or setups to just appropriate handle
      whatever conditions we are in. Something as simple as the wind blowing
      or not can drastically affect the performance or suitability of
      particular gear or a particular setup, particularly in terms of
      condensation issues or the wind robbing you of your warmth. On gear
      that has the flexibility to adjust for conditions, sometimes we set it
      up correctly and in the middle of the night the conditions change...
      whether we make adjustments in the middle of the night often comes down
      to how much trouble it is to make adjustments and whether we fell that
      it is worth the trouble or not.

      Usually the things effecting condensation not are black or white, but
      rather different shades of grey. In those cases it is not as critical
      what you do. However, that is not always the case and it is helpful to
      have some understanding of how various gear or setups can be adjusted
      (or not) to better accommodate different conditions.

      Youngblood


      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
      >
      > Jonas, I've found that my condensed breath on my bugnet can freeze
      and may
      > even fall back into the hammock as snow-generally not a serious
      problem.
      > However, the frozen condensation can re-melt as temps rise after
      sunup and
      > drip annoyingly back into the hammock. Since a bugnet can cause this
      > problem, I've also been leery of more vapor-proof fabrics as well...Ed
      >
      >








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    • seuss910
      Using a sling psychrometer is on that short, but annoying list of things I can t do inside a hammock. ... I know Rick has done some ... anyone tried ...
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 27, 2006
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        Using a sling psychrometer is on that short, but annoying list of
        things I can't do inside a hammock.

        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
        I know Rick has done some
        > temperature measurements with his infrared thermometer, but has
        anyone tried
        > to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the
        hammock
        > or inside their gear? ..Ed
        >
        >
      • jwj32542
        ... hammock ... I don t have the humidity numbers, but my hammock sock was about 10F warmer than outside when I closed it up around me...coldest night was
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 27, 2006
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          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...> wrote:
          > has anyone tried
          > to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the
          hammock
          > or inside their gear?

          I don't have the humidity numbers, but my hammock sock was about 10F
          warmer than outside when I closed it up around me...coldest night was
          about 40F, IIRC. I didn't have any condensation inside even though I
          was breathing into it, but I could definitely tell a difference when I
          opened it up. Not sure I'd want that in below freezing temps.

          Jeff
        • Debra Weisenstein
          Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a hard top should be warmer? The difference being that the hammock sock lies directly against the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 28, 2006
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            Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a hard
            top should be warmer? The difference being that the hammock sock lies
            directly against the sleeping bag, enclosing the hammock top and
            bottom, while the hard top is suspended overhead with a ridgeline.
            Potentially also the hammock sock may not cover the head, but that
            would be another issue. So I guess the question is, does increasing the
            amount of still air around you increase warmth? Or mean that the air
            inside can move around more and thus decrease warmth? Or does it all
            depend on conditions? I've generally found sleeping in a tent to be
            warmer than sleeping in a bivy sack, which would argue for the hard top
            to be warmer - maybe more distance between the outside of your
            sleeping bag and and the moving outside air.

            DebW

            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jwj32542" <jwj32542@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...>
            wrote:
            > > has anyone tried
            > > to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature inside the
            > hammock
            > > or inside their gear?
            >
            > I don't have the humidity numbers, but my hammock sock was about
            10F
            > warmer than outside when I closed it up around me...coldest night was
            > about 40F, IIRC. I didn't have any condensation inside even though I
            > was breathing into it, but I could definitely tell a difference when I
            > opened it up. Not sure I'd want that in below freezing temps.
            >
            > Jeff
            >
          • Dave Womble
            Hey Deb! That s a lot of question(s) and you would be one of the people I would think to ask about that. I think you are asking about your body heating up a
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 28, 2006
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              Hey Deb! That's a lot of question(s) and you would be one of the
              people I would think to ask about that. I think you are asking about
              your body heating up a volume of surrounding air, as in a small tent
              versus a bivy sack? Likely, it is as you surmised... it depends.
              There are a lot of factors that could come into play and they might
              turn the tables on which shelter worked best as they varied:
              humidity, condensation issues, ventilation, temperature, wind speed,
              etc. You provide the heat and I believe your body tries to regulate
              your skin temperature to about 90F. After things settle down (steady
              state condition) you have a temperature gradient starting at 90F and
              ending at the outside air temperature (let's forget about the path to
              ground in this discussion). In between you have your adjacent
              insulation (sleeping bag), then a boundry layer of warm air and then
              your tent or bivy sack which probably doesn't have much of a boundry
              on the outside. Primarily the heat transfer is conductive in your
              sleeping bag and natural convection at the boundry layer. But
              somewhere in that boundry layer of warm air you want some forced
              convection currents to vent away the humid air you generate so you
              don't have condensation issues. What I'm asking is that IF YOU COULD
              control the ventilation, would you not end up with the same amount of
              boundry layer insulation in either condition? Wouldn't you want to
              move so many cubic feet of air per minute and wouldn't that limit the
              amount of boundry layer warmth you could get? But, you have limits
              with particular shelters in what you can do regarding ventilation
              versus blocking wind and that would mean that no one shelter would be
              optimum for the whole range of conditions that we encounter when
              camping. However, for a particular set of conditions, one shelter
              might be a better choice than another and vice versa, for a
              particular set of conditions one type of shelter might... well, it
              just might sux.

              All of this is often complex in nature unless you 'just know how' to
              handle various situations. I saw a post yesterday by Mark Verber and
              looked through some of the links he referenced and saw a book by Hal
              Weiss titled "Secrets of Warmth: For Comfort or Survival". I was
              thinking about ordering it as I have a gift certificate to use up and
              it is only $9 ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/089886643X/103-
              8357169-6143853 ). Are you familar with this book?

              Dave



              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Weisenstein"
              <dweisens@a...> wrote:
              >
              > Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a hard
              > top should be warmer? The difference being that the hammock sock
              lies
              > directly against the sleeping bag, enclosing the hammock top and
              > bottom, while the hard top is suspended overhead with a ridgeline.
              > Potentially also the hammock sock may not cover the head, but that
              > would be another issue. So I guess the question is, does
              increasing the
              > amount of still air around you increase warmth? Or mean that the
              air
              > inside can move around more and thus decrease warmth? Or does it
              all
              > depend on conditions? I've generally found sleeping in a tent to
              be
              > warmer than sleeping in a bivy sack, which would argue for the hard
              top
              > to be warmer - maybe more distance between the outside of your
              > sleeping bag and and the moving outside air.
              >
              > DebW
              >
              > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jwj32542" <jwj32542@y...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...>
              > wrote:
              > > > has anyone tried
              > > > to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature
              inside the
              > > hammock
              > > > or inside their gear?
              > >
              > > I don't have the humidity numbers, but my hammock sock was about
              > 10F
              > > warmer than outside when I closed it up around me...coldest night
              was
              > > about 40F, IIRC. I didn't have any condensation inside even
              though I
              > > was breathing into it, but I could definitely tell a difference
              when I
              > > opened it up. Not sure I'd want that in below freezing temps.
              > >
              > > Jeff
              > >
              >
            • jwj32542
              ... hard ... When I had the big temp difference in the hammock sock, I used it over a ridgeline so it provided wind protection both above and below the
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 28, 2006
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                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Weisenstein"
                <dweisens@a...> wrote:
                >
                > Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a
                hard
                > top should be warmer?

                When I had the big temp difference in the hammock sock, I used it
                over a ridgeline so it provided wind protection both above and below
                the hammock. When it's windy, I can tell a big difference between
                using it with a ridgeline and using it without...most pronounced at
                my feet. Maybe adding the space of "less disturbed air" between my
                toes and the wind is the cause?

                I think another reason is that it traps some of my warm exhaled
                air. Of course, that also adds a lot of humidity. I wonder if the
                DWR on the quilts kept the moisture out of them or if they absorbed
                some, though.

                But in the end, I think it's two different systems. The hammock
                sock provides the same windblock above and below the hammock, while
                the hard top only provides it above. So with a hard top, the
                convection steals the heat directly from the bottom insulation
                rather than having a larger space of less disturbed air.

                Does that make any sense?

                Jeff
              • J.D. Hoessle
                ... Of course, it all depends ... If I may, let s narrow it down by assuming that there is NO wind. Also, assume there is NO condensation problem. I think
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 28, 2006
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                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Weisenstein"
                  <dweisens@a...> wrote:
                  > Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a hard
                  > top should be warmer?

                  Of course, it "all depends"... If I may, let's narrow it down by
                  assuming that there is NO wind. Also, assume there is NO condensation
                  problem.

                  I think if you throw out those two variables (hard to do in
                  real-life), the "dead air" becomes an insulation barrier much like the
                  principle of a vacuum-thermos-bottle. So, I would think that both
                  (sock & hard top) would be fairly equal.

                  If the wind is a factor, it seems that the hard top would lose more
                  heat because the sock would not allow as much heat transfer/loss. In
                  a properly ventilated small-one-person tent, exhaltion (ignore
                  moisture for this) does warm the interior air; but, windy conditons
                  create a greater (more rapid) heat loss from the tent thru the fabric
                  and vent.

                  Much like the principle of a wet-suit, a sock means that you are
                  heating less of the air space immediately next to you. If you are in
                  a tent or hard top, your body is trying to heat a greater volume of air.

                  In my *OLD* small-one-person tent, moisture was a problem until I
                  learned to properly ventilate. But, even then, moisture would collect
                  on the underside of the vent and vestibule <THEN FREEZE> which was
                  always so much fun crawling out with ice crystals tunbling down the
                  back of my neck....<g>...

                  I have found that in a hammock, I need to have the proper amount of
                  insulation (whatever R-Value) for the conditons/temperature around my
                  body - top/sides/bottom. Exhaled moisture/condensation is
                  "controlled" by keeping a piece of fleece (balaclava - Yeah, that
                  Greek candy) over my nose/mouth when it's really really cold. In no
                  wind conditions, I have seen some moisture accumulation on the tarp;
                  but, no big deal.

                  Just my two cents and "theoretical argument"....<g>...

                  Happy Trails,

                  J.D.
                • Bill in Houston
                  I have a feeling that once you get all snuggled up in your quilt and pads and hats and all, that you end up losing a lot of warmth through your breath. So
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 30, 2006
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                    I have a feeling that once you get all snuggled up in your quilt and
                    pads and hats and all, that you end up losing a lot of warmth through
                    your breath. So rebreathing warmer, humidified air like in a hard
                    top would help with that. Plus, that warmer air would be all over
                    the top of your top quilt, helping reduce the amount of heat coming
                    up thru the quilt. Very similar to tent vs bivy - good analogy. Of
                    course, you could easily get lots of moisture problems under the hard
                    top, as others have noted.

                    Bill in Houston

                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Debra Weisenstein"
                    <dweisens@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Anyone have a theoretical argument whether a hammock sock or a hard
                    > top should be warmer? The difference being that the hammock sock
                    lies
                    > directly against the sleeping bag, enclosing the hammock top and
                    > bottom, while the hard top is suspended overhead with a ridgeline.
                    > Potentially also the hammock sock may not cover the head, but that
                    > would be another issue. So I guess the question is, does
                    increasing the
                    > amount of still air around you increase warmth? Or mean that the
                    air
                    > inside can move around more and thus decrease warmth? Or does it
                    all
                    > depend on conditions? I've generally found sleeping in a tent to
                    be
                    > warmer than sleeping in a bivy sack, which would argue for the hard
                    top
                    > to be warmer - maybe more distance between the outside of your
                    > sleeping bag and and the moving outside air.
                    >
                    > DebW
                    >
                    > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "jwj32542" <jwj32542@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Speer" <ed@s...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > has anyone tried
                    > > > to measure humidity/dew point & compare it to temperature
                    inside the
                    > > hammock
                    > > > or inside their gear?
                    > >
                    > > I don't have the humidity numbers, but my hammock sock was about
                    > 10F
                    > > warmer than outside when I closed it up around me...coldest night
                    was
                    > > about 40F, IIRC. I didn't have any condensation inside even
                    though I
                    > > was breathing into it, but I could definitely tell a difference
                    when I
                    > > opened it up. Not sure I'd want that in below freezing temps.
                    > >
                    > > Jeff
                    > >
                    >
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