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Cold Back Poser

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  • Mike Swaine
    Well guys (and gals), I ve been lurking here for a couple of years soaking up all sorts of hammock knowledge and finally have a poser I need advice on. First,
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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      Well guys (and gals), I've been lurking here for a couple of years soaking up all sorts of
      hammock knowledge and finally have a poser I need advice on.

      First, by way of background my camping experience spans 15 years with a very active -
      once a month campouts year round - Boy Scout troop here in Phoenix and have been
      hammocking at least half that time (with a few ground-based overnights just to remind
      myself how great a hammock really is). I have not posted often because Arizona doesn't
      offer the extremes in temps that I read about on the AT, so I have little to offer on
      surviving the cold. My current rig is a Hennesey (original Expedition) which has served me
      well for 4 years, with no sign of fatigue.

      On this last weekends campout we hiked to an old mining ghost town call Copper Creek
      where temps plunged to 37 degrees. Under me inside the hammock is a 3/8x24x72
      closed cell foam pad (Target), which I fold in half. This covers me from my shoulders to
      just below my butt. For width coverage at the shoulders I tuck (horizontally) another
      piece,16x36 of the same 3/8 foam between the folded pad to form a "T". Surprisingly, I
      get very little slippage even though I may occasionally flop from side to side during the
      night - generally I sleep on my back. My bag is a early 90's vintage Peak One zero degree
      synthetic, with admittedly some loss in loft over the years, so in reality it's probably no
      better than a 20 degree bag. I use it as a quilt over me with my feet in the foot-box and
      the bag open, tucked at my sides. I may supplement this with a fleece liner and fleece
      blanket or two. Polyester long-johns under street cloths and wool socks is normal sleeping
      attire.

      Now for my poser. Long about one or two in the morning I woke up with an
      uncomfortable cold sensation at my back. This has happened before but not to the point
      of being so uncomfortable. Now I'm lying there thinking, no way is 37 degrees
      penetrating three layers of closed cell foam, so what gives? Then I'm thinking
      condensation (but there is very little humidity) or maybe sweat. Now on this trip I
      happened to have a cotton t-shirt under the poly long-john top so I took it off, put the
      poly long shirt back on and slipped one of the fleece blankets between me and the pad,
      things warmed up and I blissfully fell back asleep, as one can only do in a hammock. I felt
      much better the next morning, dry back, dry poly shirt, but the fleece blanket had a
      decided wet spot.

      Here's where I need your help - what was happening, why, and how do I prevent it in the
      future? If more details are needed, I can provide.

      BTW you CAN successfully hammock in the desert most of the time, as there are generally
      accommodating mesquite trees with arms spaces wide enough apart to support a
      hammock. Never been thwarted yet. Well, there was that time I hung in a Palo Verde tree
      and found myself on the ground about three in the morn, but I've stuck to mesquite since.

      Thanks in advance for any cogent counsel on my problem.
      Regards
      Mike Swaine
    • jwj32542
      ... I prevent it in the ... The CCF pad is a vapor barrier, so any moisture (sweat from overheating or insensible perspiration) gets stuck right there. If you
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Swaine" <mswaine@c...>
        wrote:
        > Here's where I need your help - what was happening, why, and how do
        I prevent it in the
        > future? If more details are needed, I can provide.

        The CCF pad is a vapor barrier, so any moisture (sweat from
        overheating or insensible perspiration) gets stuck right there.

        If you put some kind of thin wicking material between you and the pad,
        it'll help move the condensation. If you put anything else between
        you and the pad, like a sleeping bag, heavy shirt or your fleece
        blanket, it can soak up the sweat instead of wicking it
        away...creating a wet spot.

        When using CCF pads, I've had the best luck with a homemade SPE and T-
        shirt. So basically there's ONLY a single layer of DWR and my shirt
        between me and the vapor barrier.

        Jeff
      • Bill in Houston
        I wear more clothes than that when I sleep at those temps, and have not had any problems with moisture. Sounds like you found your solution, though. Seems to
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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          I wear more clothes than that when I sleep at those temps, and have not
          had any problems with moisture. Sounds like you found your solution,
          though. Seems to be moisture related rather than due only to the cold,
          since you had more than an inch of CCF under you.

          Bill in Houston

          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Swaine" <mswaine@c...>
          wrote:
          My bag is a early 90's vintage Peak One zero degree
          > synthetic, with admittedly some loss in loft over the years, so in
          reality it's probably no
          > better than a 20 degree bag. Now I'm lying there thinking, no way
          is 37 degrees
          > penetrating three layers of closed cell foam, so what gives?
        • jack_tier
          ... soaking up all sorts of ... with a very active - ... and have been ... overnights just to remind ... because Arizona doesn t ... little to offer on ...
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Swaine" <mswaine@c...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Well guys (and gals), I've been lurking here for a couple of years
            soaking up all sorts of
            > hammock knowledge and finally have a poser I need advice on.
            >
            > First, by way of background my camping experience spans 15 years
            with a very active -
            > once a month campouts year round - Boy Scout troop here in Phoenix
            and have been
            > hammocking at least half that time (with a few ground-based
            overnights just to remind
            > myself how great a hammock really is). I have not posted often
            because Arizona doesn't
            > offer the extremes in temps that I read about on the AT, so I have
            little to offer on
            > surviving the cold. My current rig is a Hennesey (original
            Expedition) which has served me
            > well for 4 years, with no sign of fatigue.
            >
            > On this last weekends campout we hiked to an old mining ghost town
            call Copper Creek
            > where temps plunged to 37 degrees. Under me inside the hammock is
            a 3/8x24x72
            > closed cell foam pad (Target), which I fold in half. This covers
            me from my shoulders to
            > just below my butt. For width coverage at the shoulders I tuck
            (horizontally) another
            > piece,16x36 of the same 3/8 foam between the folded pad to form
            a "T". Surprisingly, I
            > get very little slippage even though I may occasionally flop from
            side to side during the
            > night - generally I sleep on my back. My bag is a early 90's
            vintage Peak One zero degree
            > synthetic, with admittedly some loss in loft over the years, so in
            reality it's probably no
            > better than a 20 degree bag. I use it as a quilt over me with my
            feet in the foot-box and
            > the bag open, tucked at my sides. I may supplement this with a
            fleece liner and fleece
            > blanket or two. Polyester long-johns under street cloths and wool
            socks is normal sleeping
            > attire.
            >
            > Now for my poser. Long about one or two in the morning I woke up
            with an
            > uncomfortable cold sensation at my back. This has happened before
            but not to the point
            > of being so uncomfortable. Now I'm lying there thinking, no way
            is 37 degrees
            > penetrating three layers of closed cell foam, so what gives? Then
            I'm thinking
            > condensation (but there is very little humidity) or maybe sweat.
            Now on this trip I
            > happened to have a cotton t-shirt under the poly long-john top so
            I took it off, put the
            > poly long shirt back on and slipped one of the fleece blankets
            between me and the pad,
            > things warmed up and I blissfully fell back asleep, as one can
            only do in a hammock. I felt
            > much better the next morning, dry back, dry poly shirt, but the
            fleece blanket had a
            > decided wet spot.
            >
            > Here's where I need your help - what was happening, why, and how
            do I prevent it in the
            > future? If more details are needed, I can provide.
            >
            > BTW you CAN successfully hammock in the desert most of the time,
            as there are generally
            > accommodating mesquite trees with arms spaces wide enough apart to
            support a
            > hammock. Never been thwarted yet. Well, there was that time I
            hung in a Palo Verde tree
            > and found myself on the ground about three in the morn, but I've
            stuck to mesquite since.
            >
            > Thanks in advance for any cogent counsel on my problem.
            > Regards
            > Mike Swaine
            >

            Mike,

            Welcome to the sweating on a pad club....You can try to eliminate
            the sweat puddle ( using wicking materials as jeff advances in his
            post) or you can eliminate the cause of the sweat, the non breathing
            CCF pads...by using breathable external insulation such as the Pea
            Pod or under quilts...

            Eliminating a problem is better than finding a work around IMHO.

            But then I'm biased, as an under quilt designer and manufacturer.

            Jack
          • Dave Womble
            Mark, You ve gotten some good responses about the sweat on your back. As mentioned the closed cell foam (ccf) pads are a vapor barrier and don t allow
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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              Mark,

              You've gotten some good responses about the sweat on your back. As
              mentioned the closed cell foam (ccf) pads are a vapor barrier and don't
              allow moisture or air to penetrate. Vapor barriers are sometimes
              misunderstood and cause sweat problems, primarily when you overheat but
              they can cause some dampness due to insensible perspiration.
              Insensible perspiration is kind of a misnomer because it isn't really
              perspiration, it is high humidity and occurs to keep your skin from
              drying out. I recall reading somewhere that insensible perspiration
              stops when the humidity near your skin reaches 70%. It is insensible
              because you really don't notice it. A vapor barrier that has wicking
              fabric against it is usually all you need to handle insensible
              perspiration when laying on a ccf pad, I've used rip-stop nylon,
              polyester fabric, etc, but I would stay away from cotton as it stays
              soaked when it gets wet. Overheating and sweating profusely is another
              matter and requires wicking a whole lot more moisture away or removing
              some insulation so that you don't overheat and sweat so much. The ccf
              pads tend to wrap around your back some in a hammock and make it more
              difficult to wick the moisture away from that area. I try to lay on my
              side for a while when if I wake up during the night to help that. Since
              I have understood what I was dealing with sleeping on ccf pads in
              hammocks, I haven't had problems with moisture buildup.

              Vapor barriers are sometimes a bit of a problem and sometimes they are
              a good solution. When it is hot and humid they are clammy (but you
              might not even need insulation then). When it is cold and windy they
              help prevent wind from penetrating and getting to you or worse yet from
              penetrating your breathable insulation and flushing out the air that
              you have warmed up. Even with peapods and underquilts there may be
              times when you want to incorporate a vapor barrier between you and the
              breathable insulation, even if it is just a sheet of plastic to add
              warmth... it will add warmth because it will raise the humidity next to
              your skin and shut your production of insensible perspiration which can
              add significant extra warmth. Closed cell foam pads are vapor barriers
              (and you can't make them breathable unless you want to poke losts of
              tiny holes in them) and they definately have their up side and their
              down side and may not be suitable for everyone. It helps if you
              understand insensible perspiration and sweat due to overheating.

              Dave
            • Dick Matthews
              I find the Warmlite fuzzy stuff vapor barrier cloth acceptable to have next to my skin, but the rest of the time I need at least silk weight synthetic cloth
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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                I find the Warmlite fuzzy stuff vapor barrier cloth acceptable to have
                next to my skin, but the rest of the time I need at least silk weight
                synthetic cloth between me and the vapor barrier. The real silk
                underwear is not enough for comfort for me.

                I prefer to sleep in long underwear for a variety of reasons:
                Protects your expensive bag from dirt and body oils,
                Insect protection while answering the call of nature, and
                Privacy in the hammock and around camp.

                In my opinion vapor barrier clothes are only useful lower than 20.
                Vapor barrier is either on or off . Like a stove with no simmer
                adjustment. The only adjustment is flashing, similar to taking the
                pot off the stove. The technique is very light and effective, but it is
                not flexible or forgiving.

                Dick Matthews


                Dave Womble wrote:

                >Mark,
                >
                >You've gotten some good responses about the sweat on your back. As
                >mentioned the closed cell foam (ccf) pads are a vapor barrier and don't
                >allow moisture or air to penetrate. Vapor barriers are sometimes
                >misunderstood and cause sweat problems, primarily when you overheat but
                >they can cause some dampness due to insensible perspiration.
                >Insensible perspiration is kind of a misnomer because it isn't really
                >perspiration, it is high humidity and occurs to keep your skin from
                >drying out. I recall reading somewhere that insensible perspiration
                >stops when the humidity near your skin reaches 70%. It is insensible
                >because you really don't notice it. A vapor barrier that has wicking
                >fabric against it is usually all you need to handle insensible
                >perspiration when laying on a ccf pad, I've used rip-stop nylon,
                >polyester fabric, etc, but I would stay away from cotton as it stays
                >soaked when it gets wet. Overheating and sweating profusely is another
                >matter and requires wicking a whole lot more moisture away or removing
                >some insulation so that you don't overheat and sweat so much. The ccf
                >pads tend to wrap around your back some in a hammock and make it more
                >difficult to wick the moisture away from that area. I try to lay on my
                >side for a while when if I wake up during the night to help that. Since
                >I have understood what I was dealing with sleeping on ccf pads in
                >hammocks, I haven't had problems with moisture buildup.
                >
                >Vapor barriers are sometimes a bit of a problem and sometimes they are
                >a good solution. When it is hot and humid they are clammy (but you
                >might not even need insulation then). When it is cold and windy they
                >help prevent wind from penetrating and getting to you or worse yet from
                >penetrating your breathable insulation and flushing out the air that
                >you have warmed up. Even with peapods and underquilts there may be
                >times when you want to incorporate a vapor barrier between you and the
                >breathable insulation, even if it is just a sheet of plastic to add
                >warmth... it will add warmth because it will raise the humidity next to
                >your skin and shut your production of insensible perspiration which can
                >add significant extra warmth. Closed cell foam pads are vapor barriers
                >(and you can't make them breathable unless you want to poke losts of
                >tiny holes in them) and they definately have their up side and their
                >down side and may not be suitable for everyone. It helps if you
                >understand insensible perspiration and sweat due to overheating.
                >
                >Dave
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Dave Womble
                ... have ... weight ... the ... it is ... Dick, What are you using the Warmlite fuzzy stuff vapor barrier cloth with? I m aware they use it in vapor barrier
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Dick Matthews <dick@c...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I find the Warmlite fuzzy stuff vapor barrier cloth acceptable to
                  have
                  > next to my skin, but the rest of the time I need at least silk
                  weight
                  > synthetic cloth between me and the vapor barrier. The real silk
                  > underwear is not enough for comfort for me.
                  >
                  > I prefer to sleep in long underwear for a variety of reasons:
                  > Protects your expensive bag from dirt and body oils,
                  > Insect protection while answering the call of nature, and
                  > Privacy in the hammock and around camp.
                  >
                  > In my opinion vapor barrier clothes are only useful lower than 20.
                  > Vapor barrier is either on or off . Like a stove with no simmer
                  > adjustment. The only adjustment is flashing, similar to taking
                  the
                  > pot off the stove. The technique is very light and effective, but
                  it is
                  > not flexible or forgiving.
                  >
                  > Dick Matthews
                  >

                  Dick,

                  What are you using the Warmlite fuzzy stuff vapor barrier cloth
                  with? I'm aware they use it in vapor barrier bags, their sleeping
                  bags and their vapor barrier clothing. (They is Stephenson's)

                  When it gets close to 20F I usually use a plastic vest made from a
                  trash bag when I am sleeping. I put it over a synthetic T-shirt and
                  under my silk long johns. I don't even notice it except for the
                  crinkling and the extra warmth. My T-shirt is only slightly damp in
                  the morning, but I pay attention and vent my sleeping bag/quilt or
                  jacket I might be wearing to avoid overheating. I'm careful taking
                  off the plastic bag in the morning... staying out of the wind and
                  getting cloths back on FAST! Now, I use plastic bags on my feet even
                  in temperatures above 20F, basically anytime my feet get cold... they
                  add significant warmth. Again, you need to realize that liner socks
                  underneath the plastic bags make the plastic bags more comfortable
                  but they might get slightly damp... you have to handle that.

                  Dave
                • Dick Matthews
                  Dave, From skin out: Day: Feet = Smartwool socks & ski boots. Legs = light weight long underwear & X-Tex pants. Torso = Warmlite shirt & micro fleece shirt.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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                    Dave,

                    From skin out:
                    Day:
                    Feet = Smartwool socks & ski boots.
                    Legs = light weight long underwear & X-Tex pants.
                    Torso = Warmlite shirt & micro fleece shirt. Layer with silnylon jacket
                    when it snows or when I think I might fall. Down sweater for breaks and
                    around camp.
                    Hands = fleece convertible glove/mittens. Layer with OR shell mittens.
                    Head = REI Squall hat. Layer with OR Windstopper balaclava and goggles.

                    Night:
                    Feet = synthetic liner sock & produce plastic bags & nylon socks & down
                    booties.
                    Legs = lightweight long underwear & silnylon pants & expedition weight
                    long underwear. I treat the silnylon pants and expedition weight
                    underwear as a single garment.
                    Torso = Warmlite shirt and expedition weight top.
                    Hands = latex medical gloves & possum down gloves.
                    Head = light balaclava & hood from Patagonia Puff jacket.

                    Sleep system from snow up:
                    Speer 36"X72"X1/4" pad.
                    Big Agnes Insulated Air Core pad.
                    Nunatak Arc Alpinist inside a Bibler Winter Bivy,
                    Jacks'R'Better No Sniveller quilt.

                    The No Sniveller quilt is a key piece of equipment because the sarape
                    option means a down sweater is enough. The No Sniveller can be layered
                    under the silnylon jacket.

                    I currently carry two pairs of fleece convertible glove/mittens. I may
                    replace one pair and the OR shell mittens with some BMW Vapor Mitts.

                    I have ordered Warmlite VB socks.

                    Very comfortable to a little below 0 - I use a zipper pull thermometer -
                    it is hard to read and may not be accurate. In my opinion the kit is
                    good to 10 below, but no actual experience. I suspect that it is
                    important for the quilt to cover the sides of the Air Core - but I have
                    been careful and don't know what would happen if they were exposed.

                    The kit is not suitable for arctic conditions, but is adequate for local
                    conditions.

                    I have used a dry cleaner bag vest - it is an amazing amount of warmth
                    for very little weight.

                    Dick Matthews

                    >Dick,
                    >
                    >What are you using the Warmlite fuzzy stuff vapor barrier cloth
                    >with? I'm aware they use it in vapor barrier bags, their sleeping
                    >bags and their vapor barrier clothing. (They is Stephenson's)
                    >
                    >When it gets close to 20F I usually use a plastic vest made from a
                    >trash bag when I am sleeping. I put it over a synthetic T-shirt and
                    >under my silk long johns. I don't even notice it except for the
                    >crinkling and the extra warmth. My T-shirt is only slightly damp in
                    >the morning, but I pay attention and vent my sleeping bag/quilt or
                    >jacket I might be wearing to avoid overheating. I'm careful taking
                    >off the plastic bag in the morning... staying out of the wind and
                    >getting cloths back on FAST! Now, I use plastic bags on my feet even
                    >in temperatures above 20F, basically anytime my feet get cold... they
                    >add significant warmth. Again, you need to realize that liner socks
                    >underneath the plastic bags make the plastic bags more comfortable
                    >but they might get slightly damp... you have to handle that.
                    >
                    >Dave
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Mike Swaine
                    Jeff, Bill, Dave, Dick & Jack As I suspected, my questions now have some explanation. I came to the right place to ask. Thank you all for the info provided.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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                      Jeff, Bill, Dave, Dick & Jack
                      As I suspected, my questions now have some explanation. I came to the right place to
                      ask. Thank you all for the info provided. I have often thought of chucking the pads and
                      going under-quilt but my financier weighs the balance - Target pad 12 bucks / down
                      under-quilt hundred-plus and says chill out. But the vapor barrier explanations may lead
                      me to the preventions suggested.

                      I will sally forth into nature's lab on the next hike armed with your wise counsel and figure
                      out what my body defines as comfort at a given temp/humidity.

                      Don't worry Jack, I may one day be at your door, with cash in hand, begging for an under-
                      quilt in the end. I understand your workmanship is beyond reproach.

                      Again thank you all.
                      Mike
                    • jwj32542
                      ... 12 bucks / down ... www.kickassquilts.com Kickass Quilts makes synthetic underquilts for $150. $90 cheaper than JRB, but bulkier, 8 oz heavier (28 oz),
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Swaine" <mswaine@c...>
                        wrote:
                        > I have often thought of chucking the pads and
                        > going under-quilt but my financier weighs the balance - Target pad
                        12 bucks / down
                        > under-quilt hundred-plus and says chill out.

                        www.kickassquilts.com

                        Kickass Quilts makes synthetic underquilts for $150. $90 cheaper
                        than JRB, but bulkier, 8 oz heavier (28 oz), and not multi-use.
                        They're made with a bathtub shape, so I'm curious about how the fit
                        compares with the JRB. Patrick says he's tested it comfortably to
                        about 30F.

                        If you can sew, synthetic underquilts are simple to make and you can
                        probably get the materials for $50 if you find DWR on the $1/yd
                        rack. Quilt it directly to the hammock body and you can virtually
                        eliminate any air gaps.

                        Jeff
                      • chcoa
                        Hi Mike, I don t have any insight other than to say, I have had this same problem with a very simular set up. For me, I think it s the build up on the foam
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 5, 2005
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                          Hi Mike,

                          I don't have any insight other than to say, I have had this same
                          problem with a very simular set up. For me, I think it's the build
                          up on the foam from my sweat. I sort of get damp then I get cold.
                          Even in wicking clothing I have had this problem.

                          Nice to see a fellow AZer btw.
                          Jamie in AZ


                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Swaine" <mswaine@c...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Well guys (and gals), I've been lurking here for a couple of years
                          soaking up all sorts of
                          > hammock knowledge and finally have a poser I need advice on.
                          >
                          > First, by way of background my camping experience spans 15 years
                          with a very active -
                          > once a month campouts year round - Boy Scout troop here in Phoenix
                          and have been
                          > hammocking at least half that time (with a few ground-based
                          overnights just to remind
                          > myself how great a hammock really is). I have not posted often
                          because Arizona doesn't
                          > offer the extremes in temps that I read about on the AT, so I have
                          little to offer on
                          > surviving the cold. My current rig is a Hennesey (original
                          Expedition) which has served me
                          > well for 4 years, with no sign of fatigue.
                          >
                          > On this last weekends campout we hiked to an old mining ghost town
                          call Copper Creek
                          > where temps plunged to 37 degrees. Under me inside the hammock is
                          a 3/8x24x72
                          > closed cell foam pad (Target), which I fold in half. This covers
                          me from my shoulders to
                          > just below my butt. For width coverage at the shoulders I tuck
                          (horizontally) another
                          > piece,16x36 of the same 3/8 foam between the folded pad to form
                          a "T". Surprisingly, I
                          > get very little slippage even though I may occasionally flop from
                          side to side during the
                          > night - generally I sleep on my back. My bag is a early 90's
                          vintage Peak One zero degree
                          > synthetic, with admittedly some loss in loft over the years, so in
                          reality it's probably no
                          > better than a 20 degree bag. I use it as a quilt over me with my
                          feet in the foot-box and
                          > the bag open, tucked at my sides. I may supplement this with a
                          fleece liner and fleece
                          > blanket or two. Polyester long-johns under street cloths and wool
                          socks is normal sleeping
                          > attire.
                          >
                          > Now for my poser. Long about one or two in the morning I woke up
                          with an
                          > uncomfortable cold sensation at my back. This has happened before
                          but not to the point
                          > of being so uncomfortable. Now I'm lying there thinking, no way
                          is 37 degrees
                          > penetrating three layers of closed cell foam, so what gives? Then
                          I'm thinking
                          > condensation (but there is very little humidity) or maybe sweat.
                          Now on this trip I
                          > happened to have a cotton t-shirt under the poly long-john top so
                          I took it off, put the
                          > poly long shirt back on and slipped one of the fleece blankets
                          between me and the pad,
                          > things warmed up and I blissfully fell back asleep, as one can
                          only do in a hammock. I felt
                          > much better the next morning, dry back, dry poly shirt, but the
                          fleece blanket had a
                          > decided wet spot.
                          >
                          > Here's where I need your help - what was happening, why, and how
                          do I prevent it in the
                          > future? If more details are needed, I can provide.
                          >
                          > BTW you CAN successfully hammock in the desert most of the time,
                          as there are generally
                          > accommodating mesquite trees with arms spaces wide enough apart to
                          support a
                          > hammock. Never been thwarted yet. Well, there was that time I
                          hung in a Palo Verde tree
                          > and found myself on the ground about three in the morn, but I've
                          stuck to mesquite since.
                          >
                          > Thanks in advance for any cogent counsel on my problem.
                          > Regards
                          > Mike Swaine
                          >
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