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Re: New to group - Just soem info why im here and some questions.

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  • Andrew Thorp
    When I say only one 3CD, I am already on my third cone rim/magnet set-up, and will likely remake the cones before the finish. After speaking to Mr Hamel I got
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 9, 2003
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      When I say only one 3CD, I am already on my third cone rim/magnet
      set-up, and will likely remake the cones before the finish. After
      speaking to Mr Hamel I got the idea that the magnet gap should be the
      width of the green line through the centre of the poles of the magnet
      when viewed with magnetic viewing film. My magnets are 1" thick, and
      have about 1/4" thick green line. If you stack up several thinner
      magnets as Hamel did with his drum, it gives the same effect.

      Brian St Clair has not posted results, only claims. Claims that he is
      not prepared to back up, or have an independent party validate (I know
      a person who lives nearby him, but he will not allow others to visit).
      Anyone can make claims and start a legend (the M3CD is a legend) but
      it takes a lot more to back them up with proof. I don't buy internet
      conspiracies.

      A stack of three cones (on earth) that continues to vibrate without a
      recognised input of energy is by definition perpetual motion, and
      violates some of the most basic principles of existence as science
      knows it. That doesn't make it impossible to achieve, but in the
      unlikely situation that it does happen, scientists will be very
      interested in what makes the vibration and where the energy is coming
      from to sustain it. I would be quite happy to fry my computer if it
      meant finding out that the claims are real.

      Andrew.

      --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Jon C. Munson II" <jmunson@h...> wrote:
      > in P1 below: i'm sorry 'tis your first and last. usually it takes
      at least
      > two shots to get close to what the 3cd is supposed to be about from what
      > i've researched. and also time - if you believe the ancients,
      beginning in
      > 2012 we are well deserving of a planetary disruption that will change
      > everything. thus hamel's desire to "get done."
      >
      > in P2 below: a 1/4" gap sufficed for the 45gal drum, but in your
      device i'd
      > say a bit bigger would work as well. i think that more importantly
      is the
      > equality of opposition force across the whole machine, not
      necessarily the
      > size of the gap. some types of magnets are stronger than others and
      > therefore would have larger gap requirements, etc. one has to be
      able to
      > "see" what gapping is necessary - either instinctively or naturally.
      i'm
      > not sure if the MPM shows the gap relationship or if there is another
      > similar tool. but, hamel uses a "standard" magnet affixed to a
      board and
      > scale, and puts the "test" magnet in rejection to check the force at a
      > certain distance - this is key to uniformity. as for cash, a small
      machine
      > can be built (see bryan st. clair's work) that can produce enough
      effects,
      > etc., to reach the goals you need. save your pennies and build the
      engine
      > of the HFS once you "get it."
      >
      > re P3 below: bryan st. claire has the best posted results so far.
      i'm sure
      > his website can easily be located via the group's postings. check
      him out.
      > he's good independant verification of, if nothing else, the
      possibilities
      > therein.
      >
      > re P4 below: perpetual motion does not exist. the magnets will
      wear out.
      > plasma can be produced, but it may not be desireable. this thing can be
      > worse than a nuclear bomb if built intentionally wrong or
      negligently, so
      > watch out. also, cold current/plasma has disruptive effects on
      "standard"
      > electricty, so in a six-foot machine you'd affect a significantly
      large area
      > and would be noticed. bryan moved his studies to an undisclosed
      location
      > due to curiosity from an undesired group and i'm also sure for safety
      > reasons. i've had others not on this group give me similar information
      > regarding cold current devices so be warned.
      >
      > as for why i haven't built anything larger than my first experiment
      (which
      > was intentionally unsuccessful): capital and current life
      situation. when
      > the funds become available again i'll be building a full-size 3cd to
      finish
      > my "training" and then intend to move on to an HFS if i am unable to
      > contribute to hamel's craft first.
      >
      > jon
    • Jon C. Munson II
      unfortunately, andrew, all any can make are claims. it is our faith/belief that changes the claim into results/truth as there truly isn t any way for any one
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 10, 2003
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        unfortunately, andrew, all any can make are claims.  it is our faith/belief that changes the claim into results/truth as there truly isn't any way for any one of us, short of personal witness, to verify anything anyone states on the 'net.
         
        jon
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Andrew Thorp [mailto:bce257@...]
        Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 01:38
        To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [hameltech] Re: New to group - Just soem info why im here and some questions.

        When I say only one 3CD, I am already on my third cone rim/magnet
        set-up, and will likely remake the cones before the finish. After
        speaking to Mr Hamel I got the idea that the magnet gap should be the
        width of the green line through the centre of the poles of the magnet
        when viewed with magnetic viewing film. My magnets are 1" thick, and
        have about 1/4" thick green line. If you stack up several thinner
        magnets as Hamel did with his drum, it gives the same effect.

        Brian St Clair has not posted results, only claims. Claims that he is
        not prepared to back up, or have an independent party validate (I know
        a person who lives nearby him, but he will not allow others to visit).
        Anyone can make claims and start a legend (the M3CD is a legend) but
        it takes a lot more to back them up with proof. I don't buy internet
        conspiracies.

        A stack of three cones (on earth) that continues to vibrate without a
        recognised input of energy is by definition perpetual motion, and
        violates some of the most basic principles of existence as science
        knows it. That doesn't make it impossible to achieve, but in the
        unlikely situation that it does happen, scientists will be very
        interested in what makes the vibration and where the energy is coming
        from to sustain it. I would be quite happy to fry my computer if it
        meant finding out that the claims are real.

        Andrew. 

        --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Jon C. Munson II" <jmunson@h...> wrote:
        > in P1 below:  i'm sorry 'tis your first and last.  usually it takes
        at least
        > two shots to get close to what the 3cd is supposed to be about from what
        > i've researched.  and also time - if you believe the ancients,
        beginning in
        > 2012 we are well deserving of a planetary disruption that will change
        > everything.  thus hamel's desire to "get done."
        >
        > in P2 below:  a 1/4" gap sufficed for the 45gal drum, but in your
        device i'd
        > say a bit bigger would work as well.  i think that more importantly
        is the
        > equality of opposition force across the whole machine, not
        necessarily the
        > size of the gap.  some types of magnets are stronger than others and
        > therefore would have larger gap requirements, etc.  one has to be
        able to
        > "see" what gapping is necessary - either instinctively or naturally.
        i'm
        > not sure if the MPM shows the gap relationship or if there is another
        > similar tool.  but, hamel uses a "standard" magnet affixed to a
        board and
        > scale, and puts the "test" magnet in rejection to check the force at a
        > certain distance - this is key to uniformity.  as for cash, a small
        machine
        > can be built (see bryan st. clair's work) that can produce enough
        effects,
        > etc., to reach the goals you need.  save your pennies and build the
        engine
        > of the HFS once you "get it."
        >
        > re P3 below:  bryan st. claire has the best posted results so far.
        i'm sure
        > his website can easily be located via the group's postings.  check
        him out.
        > he's good independant verification of, if nothing else, the
        possibilities
        > therein.
        >
        > re P4 below:  perpetual motion does not exist.  the magnets will
        wear out.
        > plasma can be produced, but it may not be desireable.  this thing can be
        > worse than a nuclear bomb if built intentionally wrong or
        negligently, so
        > watch out.  also, cold current/plasma has disruptive effects on
        "standard"
        > electricty, so in a six-foot machine you'd affect a significantly
        large area
        > and would be noticed.  bryan moved his studies to an undisclosed
        location
        > due to curiosity from an undesired group and i'm also sure for safety
        > reasons.  i've had others not on this group give me similar information
        > regarding cold current devices so be warned.
        >
        > as for why i haven't built anything larger than my first experiment
        (which
        > was intentionally unsuccessful):  capital and current life
        situation.  when
        > the funds become available again i'll be building a full-size 3cd to
        finish
        > my "training" and then intend to move on to an HFS if i am unable to
        > contribute to hamel's craft first.
        >
        > jon



        Header Codes
        11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
        11112: Building and balancing, progress
        11113: David Hamel reports
        11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
        OT: "Off Topic"

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      • Timothy
        ... But Andrew... As I see it there is power being input... ever go to the beach and put a sea shell to your ear??? This is the same effect... The shell
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 10, 2003
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          --- Andrew Thorp <bce257@...> wrote:
          > A stack of three cones (on earth) that
          > continues to vibrate without a
          > recognised input of energy is by definition
          > perpetual motion, and
          > violates some of the most basic principles of
          > existence as science
          > knows it.
          > Andrew.

          But Andrew... As I see it there is power being
          input...
          ever go to the beach and put a sea shell to your
          ear??? This is the same effect... The shell
          resonates with the surrounding sounds only
          changing their pitch so that you hear the
          "sea"...
          I believe the 3CD does the same... everything
          vibrates... The 3CD then only has to convert
          these vibrations into a motion...

          I have not build a devise... I make no claims as
          having done so... But I have read a lot on this
          devise...
          As to "heater"... Well lets just say that Mr.
          Hamel talks funny... he does not necessarily mean
          that it will produce heat... but he has implied
          it...
          We have to remember he is not working for us...
          not against us either but could I feel he could
          care less how much we know about this... He
          mostly cares that he gets his devise done...
          A "crack pot"??? maybe... but he did achieve
          something... There is no reason that I have seen
          in my years of studding this to see where he is
          benefiting in any way from this...
          Timothy...


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        • Mike
          Just to add two cents to this argument, there is actually a direct input of energy and it comes from the magnets. If you ve ever tried to smash two magnets
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 10, 2003
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            Just to add two cents to this argument, there is actually a direct input of
            energy and it comes from the magnets. If you've ever tried to smash two
            magnets together with like poles facing each other, then you know that you
            have to exert energy to do it. The force you are pushing against is the
            force that drives these devices. Its like having a bunch of small hands all
            pushing in the same direction, with enough of them, they create a vibration.
            The vibration gains momentum, and is not slowed down due to relative lack of
            friction and with the help of the unique geometry of the device it gains
            kinetic energy. A slight ion breeze is generated by the cones and the holes
            in the top and bottom of the drum, and then this builds on itself to create
            a stronger ion breeze, which leads to the ion plasma magnetic vortex. I'm
            not sure if any scientific principles are being violated here, this device
            is unique because it takes an approach that no one has considered possible
            before. The free energy is coming from the magnets, and the device acts
            like a magnifyer in a way. This is how I understand it, please correct me
            if I'm off base here.

            Mike

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Timothy" <flytch@...>
            To: <hameltech@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:58 AM
            Subject: Re: [hameltech] Re: New to group - Just soem info why im here and
            some questions.


            > --- Andrew Thorp <bce257@...> wrote:
            > > A stack of three cones (on earth) that
            > > continues to vibrate without a
            > > recognised input of energy is by definition
            > > perpetual motion, and
            > > violates some of the most basic principles of
            > > existence as science
            > > knows it.
            > > Andrew.
            >
            > But Andrew... As I see it there is power being
            > input...
            > ever go to the beach and put a sea shell to your
            > ear??? This is the same effect... The shell
            > resonates with the surrounding sounds only
            > changing their pitch so that you hear the
            > "sea"...
            > I believe the 3CD does the same... everything
            > vibrates... The 3CD then only has to convert
            > these vibrations into a motion...
            >
            > I have not build a devise... I make no claims as
            > having done so... But I have read a lot on this
            > devise...
            > As to "heater"... Well lets just say that Mr.
            > Hamel talks funny... he does not necessarily mean
            > that it will produce heat... but he has implied
            > it...
            > We have to remember he is not working for us...
            > not against us either but could I feel he could
            > care less how much we know about this... He
            > mostly cares that he gets his devise done...
            > A "crack pot"??? maybe... but he did achieve
            > something... There is no reason that I have seen
            > in my years of studding this to see where he is
            > benefiting in any way from this...
            > Timothy...
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
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            >
            > Header Codes
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            > 11112: Building and balancing, progress
            > 11113: David Hamel reports
            > 11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
            > OT: "Off Topic"
            >
            > Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
            > Subscribe: hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            >
            >
            >
          • Ole Thor
            ... definitely a heater , he would like someone to build one for him for the quonset hut where he does his work. it is very cold in the winter. Ole.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 10, 2003
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              --- Timothy <flytch@...> wrote:
              ...snip...
              > As to "heater"... Well lets just say that Mr.
              > Hamel talks funny... he does not necessarily mean
              > that it will produce heat... but he has implied
              > it...


              definitely a "heater", he would like someone to build
              one for him for the quonset hut where he does his
              work. it is very cold in the winter.

              Ole.

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            • Andrew Thorp
              Hi Mike, The energy from magnets is a well trodden path for claiming free energy, but because this goes against the scientific belief that magnetism is a
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 10, 2003
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                Hi Mike,

                The 'energy from magnets' is a well trodden path for claiming free
                energy, but because this goes against the scientific belief that
                magnetism is a conservative force, it doesn't cut much ice. The LUTEC
                boys are trying to con(vince) investors using this argument to justify
                where the energy comes from to power their motor.

                Magnetism can be modelled accurately using well-proven equations, but
                only if it is treated as a conservative force. Generally when
                something can be described and predicted using math, the door is
                closed to any other possibilities.

                Hamel speaks of the 'zero point', the point between the opposing
                magnets as the source of the energy, and this arguably has not been
                explored, as it is such an obscure idea. Although just the thought of
                it will bring on great guffaws from anyone conventionally trained, I
                feel it is worth investigating.

                As to the vibration, it is not just a back and forth 2D vibration, nor
                (I believe) is it a compressive wave like a sound wave, but a rather
                complex 3-plane motion. Right at the bottom of this page:
                http://pages.quicksilver.net.nz/arthorp/hamdata.htm is a pic somebody
                has snapped at Mr Hamel's place showing some part of one of his
                devices vibrating (I believe the black dots represent the 'zero
                point'). As you can probably imagine, when the lift of the cups is
                added to this, it becomes more than just a simple wiggle.

                Andrew.

                --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikethierfelder@m...> wrote:
                > Just to add two cents to this argument, there is actually a direct
                input of
                > energy and it comes from the magnets. If you've ever tried to smash two
                > magnets together with like poles facing each other, then you know
                that you
                > have to exert energy to do it. The force you are pushing against is the
                > force that drives these devices. Its like having a bunch of small
                hands all
                > pushing in the same direction, with enough of them, they create a
                vibration.
                > The vibration gains momentum, and is not slowed down due to relative
                lack of
                > friction and with the help of the unique geometry of the device it gains
                > kinetic energy. A slight ion breeze is generated by the cones and
                the holes
                > in the top and bottom of the drum, and then this builds on itself to
                create
                > a stronger ion breeze, which leads to the ion plasma magnetic
                vortex. I'm
                > not sure if any scientific principles are being violated here, this
                device
                > is unique because it takes an approach that no one has considered
                possible
                > before. The free energy is coming from the magnets, and the device acts
                > like a magnifyer in a way. This is how I understand it, please
                correct me
                > if I'm off base here.
                >
                > Mike
              • Jon C. Munson II
                bottom line is, w/o the magnets providing the force the machine & all the other devices simply don t function. the machines are not perpetual - the magnets
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 10, 2003
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                  bottom line is, w/o the magnets providing the force the machine & all the other devices simply don't function.
                   
                  the machines are not perpetual - the magnets provide the "energy" for the machine to move/function.  once the magnets wear out (and they do - the fields weaken over time, a great deal of time perhaps, but nonetheless), the machines don't work.
                   
                  as for your second paragraph, your caveat does the argument in.  that is modern science, full of caveats, which is why it cannot explain these machines & how they work, nor can our math.  thus, hamel has his "own" vocabulary to describe things, as it is new to him so to us.
                   
                  you breathe because air is there, yet you cannot see it.  does that mean it does not exist?  thus i say to modern scientists - "just cuz ya can't see it don't mean it ain't there!"
                   
                  and yes, the 3cd works on more than one plane, i'd even venture a 4th plane becomes present once the other 3 are active (as a guess)...
                   
                  jon
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Andrew Thorp [mailto:bce257@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 17:51
                  To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [hameltech] that ol' debate

                  Hi Mike,

                  The 'energy from magnets' is a well trodden path for claiming free
                  energy, but because this goes against the scientific belief that
                  magnetism is a conservative force, it doesn't cut much ice. The LUTEC
                  boys are trying to con(vince) investors using this argument to justify
                  where the energy comes from to power their motor.

                  Magnetism can be modelled accurately using well-proven equations, but
                  only if it is treated as a conservative force. Generally when
                  something can be described and predicted using math, the door is
                  closed to any other possibilities.

                  Hamel speaks of the 'zero point', the point between the opposing
                  magnets as the source of the energy, and this arguably has not been
                  explored, as it is such an obscure idea. Although just the thought of
                  it will bring on great guffaws from anyone conventionally trained, I
                  feel it is worth investigating.

                  As to the vibration, it is not just a back and forth 2D vibration, nor
                  (I believe) is it a compressive wave like a sound wave, but a rather
                  complex 3-plane motion. Right at the bottom of this page:
                  http://pages.quicksilver.net.nz/arthorp/hamdata.htm is a pic somebody
                  has snapped at Mr Hamel's place showing some part of one of his
                  devices vibrating (I believe the black dots represent the 'zero
                  point'). As you can probably imagine, when the lift of the cups is
                  added to this, it becomes more than just a simple wiggle.

                  Andrew.

                  --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikethierfelder@m...> wrote:
                  > Just to add two cents to this argument, there is actually a direct
                  input of
                  > energy and it comes from the magnets.  If you've ever tried to smash two
                  > magnets together with like poles facing each other, then you know
                  that you
                  > have to exert energy to do it.  The force you are pushing against is the
                  > force that drives these devices.  Its like having a bunch of small
                  hands all
                  > pushing in the same direction, with enough of them, they create a
                  vibration.
                  > The vibration gains momentum, and is not slowed down due to relative
                  lack of
                  > friction and with the help of the unique geometry of the device it gains
                  > kinetic energy.  A slight ion breeze is generated by the cones and
                  the holes
                  > in the top and bottom of the drum, and then this builds on itself to
                  create
                  > a stronger ion breeze, which leads to the ion plasma magnetic
                  vortex.  I'm
                  > not sure if any scientific principles are being violated here, this
                  device
                  > is unique because it takes an approach that no one has considered
                  possible
                  > before.  The free energy is coming from the magnets, and the device acts
                  > like a magnifyer in a way.  This is how I understand it, please
                  correct me
                  > if I'm off base here.
                  >
                  > Mike




                  Header Codes
                  11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
                  11112: Building and balancing, progress
                  11113: David Hamel reports
                  11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                  OT: "Off Topic"

                  Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                  Subscribe:  hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Unsubscribe:  hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  List owner:  hameltech-owner@yahoogroups.com


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                • Timothy
                  Good to know Ole... by the way... for the new guys... this is the MAN ... Ole has spent more time talking directly with Mr. Hamel then anyone!!! Have a
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 10, 2003
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                    Good to know Ole...
                    by the way... for the new guys... this is the
                    "MAN"... Ole has spent more time talking directly
                    with Mr. Hamel then anyone!!!
                    Have a question you want asked directly to Mr.
                    Hamel... ask it to Ole...

                    Thanks Ole :)

                    Timothy...



                    --- Ole Thor <ole_thor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- Timothy <flytch@...> wrote:
                    > ...snip...
                    > > As to "heater"... Well lets just say that Mr.
                    > > Hamel talks funny... he does not necessarily
                    > mean
                    > > that it will produce heat... but he has
                    > implied
                    > > it...
                    >
                    >
                    > definitely a "heater", he would like someone to
                    > build
                    > one for him for the quonset hut where he does
                    > his
                    > work. it is very cold in the winter.
                    >
                    > Ole.
                    >
                    > __________________________________
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                    > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                    >


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                  • Timothy
                    Vibration and zero point... My opinions here... What is Òzero point energyÓ? Quantum theory teaches us that everything is simply energy that is vibrating in
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 10, 2003
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                      Vibration and zero point...
                      My opinions here...
                      What is �zero point energy�?
                      Quantum theory teaches us that everything is
                      simply energy that is vibrating in space... this
                      vibration causes things to seem solid...
                      Everything is simply made up of vibrating energy
                      in some form...
                      now take vibrations... Hmmm... what vibrates... a
                      lawn mower vibrates... and most of us have
                      held/pushed one of those... so I�ll use it for my
                      analogy... you grip the handle of the mower and
                      your hands shake... grip it lightly and you can
                      feel it vibrate inside your hands... grip it
                      tightly and you hands shake at the same amplitude
                      so you no longer feel the energy of the
                      vibrations...

                      I feel that magnets held in suspension but not a
                      fixed or constant suspension can be vibrated by
                      this force...
                      In the 3CD it takes on many forms... after all we
                      are subjected to a great deal of vibrations every
                      day... the earth it self vibrates... space is
                      known to vibrate also...
                      A 3CD seems to pick up some (or one???) of these
                      vibrations and like pushing a child on the swing
                      builds these into a lot of force...

                      So where is the power coming form??? not some
                      magic yet to be uncovered force... but from these
                      vibrations around it...
                      Is it dangerous??? well... YES... Mr. Hamel
                      himself as said so too... this is not a toy... Do
                      we know it�s effects... no...
                      Mr. Hamel tells us that his put off a red glow
                      with heat when it went boom... Implosion?
                      explosion?... don�t know... but it did blow holes
                      in this garage from the flying shrapnel that it
                      became...

                      Did I miss anything guys??

                      Timothy...

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                    • Andrew Thorp
                      Right on Matt. Furthermore, anything in a state of PM that has an output of energy must always be in a state of balance between constant creation (energy
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 11, 2003
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                        Right on Matt.

                        Furthermore, anything in a state of PM that has an output of energy
                        must always be in a state of balance between constant creation (energy
                        input) vs constant destruction (energy output), as linearity is most
                        certainly not a state that occurs in nature. Any claim of 'X%
                        over-unity' or 'COP >1' is without a doubt either a scam or a
                        measuring error because this is just a nonsense situation.

                        Our human body is a perfect example of this. It appears to be in a
                        constant state (doesn't change much in ten years compared to the
                        damage we tend to unleash on it), but of course every cell and system
                        in our body is in a constant state of recreation that balances
                        perfectly with the destruction that is us living. It is a very
                        beautiful thing this balance, and is certainly not just the sum of
                        time plus randomness (evolution).

                        If a 3CD can stay in a state of even minute vibration, a very accurate
                        measurement will show a tiny temperature increase from the friction
                        between the parts. If this can be repeatedly verified, it will be all
                        that is required to validate Hemeltech. If it can stay in this state,
                        this also means it can be coaxed into a state where its energy gain is
                        greater than its energy loss, a state that if unregulated will lead
                        quickly to violent destruction.

                        Andrew.




                        --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, Muska692@a... wrote:
                        > When someone says a machine is perpetual motion, I see it in terms
                        of potential. A combustion engine does not have the potential to run
                        forever without an endless supply of gasoline. Most of Mr. Hamel's
                        machines, in my mind, can be called perpetual because their
                        powersource is truely endless.
                        >
                        > -Matt M (Muska692@a...)
                      • Jason Ebacher
                        Yes correct minus one thing the energy used in the machine is gravity, and the magnetic feilds... the device would not function after the magnets loose there
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 11, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yes correct minus one thing the energy used in the machine is
                          gravity, and the magnetic feilds... the device would not function
                          after the magnets loose there magnetisim... Thats the energy
                          source... now if they create more energy than is input this is just a
                          highly effecient device...

                          Thats the holy grail, a energy source that will generate lots of
                          power with very little input power, and a input power that is very
                          abundant.. and also remember that the device is said to work with out
                          magnets, what if the magnets are only a means to start a chain
                          reaction that will carry on till its stoped.. Is this possable , we
                          hope so :)

                          Jason


                          --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Thorp" <bce257@y...> wrote:
                          > Right on Matt.
                          >
                          > Furthermore, anything in a state of PM that has an output of energy
                          > must always be in a state of balance between constant creation
                          (energy
                          > input) vs constant destruction (energy output), as linearity is most
                          > certainly not a state that occurs in nature. Any claim of 'X%
                          > over-unity' or 'COP >1' is without a doubt either a scam or a
                          > measuring error because this is just a nonsense situation.
                          >
                          > Our human body is a perfect example of this. It appears to be in a
                          > constant state (doesn't change much in ten years compared to the
                          > damage we tend to unleash on it), but of course every cell and
                          system
                          > in our body is in a constant state of recreation that balances
                          > perfectly with the destruction that is us living. It is a very
                          > beautiful thing this balance, and is certainly not just the sum of
                          > time plus randomness (evolution).
                          >
                          > If a 3CD can stay in a state of even minute vibration, a very
                          accurate
                          > measurement will show a tiny temperature increase from the friction
                          > between the parts. If this can be repeatedly verified, it will be
                          all
                          > that is required to validate Hemeltech. If it can stay in this
                          state,
                          > this also means it can be coaxed into a state where its energy gain
                          is
                          > greater than its energy loss, a state that if unregulated will lead
                          > quickly to violent destruction.
                          >
                          > Andrew.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, Muska692@a... wrote:
                          > > When someone says a machine is perpetual motion, I see it in terms
                          > of potential. A combustion engine does not have the potential to run
                          > forever without an endless supply of gasoline. Most of Mr. Hamel's
                          > machines, in my mind, can be called perpetual because their
                          > powersource is truely endless.
                          > >
                          > > -Matt M (Muska692@a...)
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