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Re: Individual Cone Balancing

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  • homekiwi
    Hi Val, ... all 3 of my cones balanced. In this picture if you study it you can see the ring magnet position to the cone magnets. Yes, I did have a look at
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 13, 2002
      Hi Val,

      --- In hameltech@y..., Val Gruno <vgruno2000@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi himekiwi,
      > I posted a couple of pictures a few days ago one of which showed
      all 3 of my cones balanced. In this picture if you study it you can
      see the ring magnet position to the cone magnets.

      Yes, I did have a look at your pics. Your method of holding the outer
      rings in position with just two nuts is brilliantly simple...

      Part of my problem is that the present magnets are just a bit bigger
      than yours at 27.5mm, but the cones are over 10 times bigger at 840mm
      diameter. This means there is far less room for error, as the
      magnetic 'cushion' is effectively so much smaller. I really need much
      larger magnets to make it more stable, but it is a big commitment as
      the whole thing needs around 600 of them.


      > A little back history for you on this balancing for me. First the
      cones in the picture were machined from an aluminum stock. The
      diameter of each cone is 76mm and 76mm high.


      Would that mean the space in a 'two skin' cone (between the inner and
      outer skins) is solid in yours, given that they started off as solid
      bar? This would make the lower part of the cones heavier, and help
      with the 'jumping out of the top' problem that I was having.



      The first cone balanced without problem and the second balanced
      without problem but the third one refused to balance and everything
      fell apart. After many attempts with a lot of frustration I decided
      that the weight of the cones might be a little too much so I had them
      machined down some more. I had the inside machined again as that was
      the only place that metal could be taken off without damage to the
      shape of the cone. Well finally after the machining was done I was
      able to achieve the balance that you see in the picture. Thae rubber
      bands in the picture were holding the top together and it was only
      for a trial run for balancing. I have since added a nice piece to the
      top and looks good. I used the rubber feet on the bottom as it will
      insulate the device from the shell. This entire set up will just fit
      inside of a 150mm dia. pipe. This is being worked on. My biggest
      problem is finding the top rejection magnets. Will work with that
      when the shell is ready

      Do you think the stack will still balance with the extra weight of
      the rej magnet on the top cone?


      > Progress is slow as work has swamped me lately.
      > I have started to gather the material for building a scale down
      version of Mr. hamels trinity motor. That is where I am at the
      present.
      > By the way my gap between the ring magnets and the cone magnets is
      about 5-6mm. Don't give up. It is worth just seeing all 3 cones
      balanced.
      > Val
      >

      I tried the spring idea this morning, and with a spring on each side
      (that's all I had), the cone continued to wobble around for nearly
      eight minutes when given a half inch deflection. I figured the
      damping effect of the springs can't be too great and have decided to
      construct the whole machine with springs in place of the rim/cone
      magnets. This will give me an idea of what sort of movement it will
      have when the rejection magnets are in place, without the worry of it
      going crash all the time.

      I will be very interested to see what your machine will do when
      completed.

      Kind regards,
      Andrew.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
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    • Val Gruno
      Hi Andrew (homekiwi), What is your gap between the ring magnets and the cone magnets? How did you determine the distance to use for your gap? I know what I did
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 13, 2002

        Hi Andrew (homekiwi),

        What is your gap between the ring magnets and the cone magnets?

        How did you determine the distance to use for your gap?

        I know what I did to get my distance and am curious as to how you did it.

        Val

         



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      • Val Gruno
        Hi Andrew (homekiwi), Attached is a picture of the inside of my cone. Val ... Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 13, 2002

          Hi Andrew (homekiwi),

          Attached is a picture of the inside of my cone.

          Val



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        • homekiwi
          Hi Val, ... From Steve D s site: I asked for more specs on the spacing between the cone rim magnets and their opposing ring magnets. He said that The spacing
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 14, 2002
            Hi Val,

            --- In hameltech@y..., Val Gruno <vgruno2000@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Andrew (homekiwi),
            > What is your gap between the ring magnets and the cone magnets?
            > How did you determine the distance to use for your gap?

            From Steve D's site:
            "I asked for more specs on the spacing between the cone rim magnets
            and their opposing ring magnets. He said that The spacing when not
            wobbling was very small, about 1/4 inch. The wobble was also very
            small, about 1/16 inch. He said that the isotope line barely moved."
            http://www.entrenet.com/~stevend/haml45gd/h45gdavd/h45gdavd.htm

            Andrew.

            > I know what I did to get my distance and am curious as to how you
            did it.
            > Val
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
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          • David K
            You know I have always thought you need both the inner and outer cones to make the device work. You seem to only have the outer cones? Or is there another
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 14, 2002

              You know I have always thought you need both the inner and outer cones to make the device work.  You seem to only have the outer cones?  Or is there another cone that goes into this one?

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Val Gruno [mailto:vgruno2000@...]
              Sent: Monday, 14 October 2002 7:19 AM
              To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing

               

              Hi Andrew (homekiwi),

              Attached is a picture of the inside of my cone.

              Val

               


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            • David K
              I would make the frame if I were you. The amount of movement in the outer ring will definitely hamper your balancing efforts. I had to put my frame in the 45
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 14, 2002

                I would make the frame if I were you.  The amount of movement in the outer ring will definitely hamper your balancing efforts.  I had to put my frame in the 45 gallon drum in order to get the frame rigid enough to hold the cones.  Also if the ring is in a frame you can make minor adjustments to the height of the ring which is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.  A change of one millimetre can make the difference between balancing and crashing.  I can’t stress this enough.

                 

                      When I had all my cones in and balanced I actually had to add another 2kg of lead into each cone to get them moving right.  I used the lead to even out the weight of the cones.

                      My gap is almost an inch.  That is due to the strong magnets I used.  They are :

                10011 D29* 10mm

                 

                 

                 

                 

                I bought them from here: http://www.magneticforce.com.au/

                 

                They are actually quite strong and then when you have a ring of them you start to realise how weak the magnets could have been.  Every time someone mentions neodymium magnets I have a laugh.  They would be so strong I would actually say it might be dangerous.

                 

                 

                I just saw your picture.  Can I say I think you have missed the point of balancing.  Don’t worry about balancing the cone like this.  You need to have the magnets to do the balancing.  What balancing means is ensuring the outer ring of magnets is perfectly in line with the cones magnets.  Ie the outer ring has to be perfectly level and the cone rim should be level.  I made my outer ring adjustable so I could raise it at 4 points around the outside.  I also used electrical tape to hold the cone magnet ring in place allowing me to perform small adjustments.  You won’t need to attach the cone ring too strongly at the start as long as it’s a tight fit. Because the ring of magnets is suspended (and quite heavy) and the cone shape stops it from flipping over, the cone can be riveted later when you have “balanced” it.  Sorry, I have always known that people missed the point of balancing.  A lot of the hameltech stuff uses words differently to how they are defined, just listen to David Hamel for a minute and you’ll understand J

                      The minor imperfections of the out of balanced cone will not matter once you get it into the magnetic frame.

                 

                 

                As an aside, my cones have been vibrating for a couple of months now.  Though I haven’t got any other effects I haven’t ever really tried to get measurements or anything.  They just look cool sitting there and every now and then they “kick  like the wave suddenly coincides with itself.  Whoever said all this stuff is rubbish is very wrong and obviously lazy.  Just make it.  Your spring idea is interesting, I thought of that one and it will give you the desired movement.  That’s something at least.  You get to see the snake, just no bee…

                 

                David K

                 

                 

                 

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: homekiwi [mailto:arthorp@...]
                Sent
                :
                Saturday, 12 October 2002 2:18 PM
                To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing

                 

                Hi David,

                 

                --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:

                > Hi Andrew,

                >     Yep Balancing the cones is the hardest thing to do.  And you

                > think one is hard wait till you do all three. :-)

                 

                Hehe... yes, I am envisioning a fair bit of cussing will happen

                before that stage. For now I am just sitting one outer ring between

                the chair-back and the bench-top(see pic) 

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Andrew%20Thorp/

                and trying to balance the cone in the middle. I really want to have

                three stable balanced cones before I proceed further and build the

                machine 'chassis'.

                 

                > Truly though there are some things you can do to help.  Don't worry

                > about the top heaviness of the cones, that's why we use cones,

                because

                > they are top heavy.  What you might need to look at is the height

                of the

                > outer ring of magnets.  They should be a little lower than the

                magnets

                > on the cone.

                 

                 

                I think that my magnets are not really strong enough for the cone

                weight. If I take a little bit of weight by holding the bottom of the

                cone it stays there not to bad, but just the slightest movement and

                it tips sideways.

                 

                 

                 This is so when the cone sways to one side, it will then

                > be pushed back to the centre.  If your cones are falling out then I

                > would say your outer rings are too be, try decreasing the gap

                between

                > the outer ring and the cone ring.

                 

                The gap is 1/4", as per the tree of life. I may decrease it a little

                by trying thicker magnets soon.

                 

                 

                  Also (I mentioned this the other day)

                > if your oscillator moves too much left and right then it will also

                allow

                > the cones to fall out.  That's why I used quit strong magnets. 

                Though

                > as I got the balance right I was able to decrease the strength of

                the

                > magnets to get a better vibration.  Perhaps you should try holding

                the

                > base still to start with until your cones are being supported by the

                > outer rings.  Remember that when the cones are in the device they

                are

                > actually weightless because they are being supported by the outer

                ring

                > of magnets.

                 

                 

                This is exactly the stage I hope to achieve eventually, where all

                three cones support their selves, with their lower tips placed just a

                hair's width above the next lower cone/oscillator. Then adding the

                rejection magnet to the top will close these gaps up and squash the

                cones out of alignment. Hopefully without that dreaded crashing sound

                that I'm sure some people here are familiar with ;-)

                 

                 

                 In fact you'll find the top cone should almost be floating

                > and the tip is in the middle cone only to stop it flipping over and

                > falling out.  Then when you put the top rejection magnet on it will

                push

                > the cones down and you'll get the vibration(an aside to this is

                putting

                > the top magnet on to push the cones down is like pulling a piece of

                > elastic and getting higher and higher vibrations.  You just need to

                push

                > down the right amount.)

                >

                > Hope that helps.  I have included a picture of my device with all

                three

                > cones balanced and the top magnet in place just to prove that its

                > possible :-).  Once you get it right it will be very easy to put the

                > cones in again.

                 

                How big is your magnet gap? I know pics can be deceptive sometimes,

                bit it looks quite big. Also, can you 'hang' each cone on its own

                without anything else in there and still have it stay?

                 

                It ocurred to me last night, after speaking to another Hamel-er here,

                that it would be a good simple test to replace all the magnets around

                the rims with some springs, just to see what the isotope line is

                going to look like when set up. Although I don't expect it to 'work'

                like that, it will give a good indication of how things will shape up

                eventually, and possibly save a lot of expense buying the wrong

                magnets.

                 

                 

                Thanks David,

                 

                Andrew.

                >

                > David K

                 

                 

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              • David K
                YOUR DRUM IS MADE OF GRANITE??????? Please explain! How did you make this? How big is it? Do you still have the metal inner like the 45gd? ... From: Robert
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 14, 2002
                  YOUR DRUM IS MADE OF GRANITE???????
                  Please explain! How did you make this? How big is it? Do you still
                  have the metal inner like the 45gd?

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Robert Hernandez [mailto:pqsul@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, 13 October 2002 1:57 AM
                  To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [hameltech] Individual Cone Balancing

                  Hi, Yes I got all my three cones to balance, But my
                  cones are made out of s/s and have weight to them, and
                  also my drum is made out of granite.
                  --- homekiwi <arthorp@...> wrote:
                  > Hi to all,
                  >
                  > I am in the process of trying to set up the first
                  > cone on its
                  > magnetic cushion and, by golly, it doesn't really
                  > want to play that
                  > game...
                  >
                  > Question to those that have achieved 'balance':
                  has
                  > anyone managed to
                  > get each cone to individually hang in it's place
                  > without anything
                  > else touching it?
                  >
                  > I feel that it may be important to have each
                  piece
                  > in equilibrium
                  > before the stack is assembled. If it has to rely
                  on
                  > the other cones
                  > or oscillator for support to keep the cones from
                  > jumping out, then
                  > there will be forces acting within the stack that
                  we
                  > don't want.
                  >
                  > Part of the problem comes from a cone shape being
                  > naturally top-
                  > heavy, and if I add weight to the bottom to
                  correct
                  > this, the cone
                  > will be too heavy for the magnet strength that I
                  am
                  > using and will
                  > fall through.
                  >
                  > Help...Anyone...
                  >
                  > Andrew.
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                  11113: David Hamel reports
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                • Val Gruno
                  Hi David K, The cones can be made in many different ways, the picture of my cone is my cone. Made out of solid aluminum machined to this shape. It took 4 hours
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 14, 2002

                     

                     Hi David K,

                    The cones can be made in many different ways, the picture of my cone is my cone. Made out of solid aluminum machined to this shape.

                    It took 4 hours to machine one cone. So figure 12 hours for 3. The cone weight (each cone is @ 110 grams. Prior to additional machining they weighed considerably more and crashed when I tried to balance the third cone on top. My magnets are @ 12mm in dia. and @ 4mm thick. An inner and outer cone is not necessary but seeing the success Bryan has had with his I think most are following his example and I think it is a wise choice. If I am correct he adds water between the inner and outer cones to adjust the weight of each cone. If additional weight is required in my cones I would need to add lead or some other material.

                    If you have any other questions about what I did feel free to ask.

                    Val 



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                  • Val Gruno
                    Hello homekiwi , My method of choosing my gap went like this. I held 2 magnets together both in the repelling mode--ie south south or north north--I brought
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 14, 2002

                       

                       Hello homekiwi ,

                      My method of choosing my gap went like this.

                      I held 2 magnets together both in the repelling mode--ie south south or north north--I brought them together until the field was so strong that they wanted to slide sideways away from each other--then I backed them off until you felt an equal force --at this point I measured--or had somebody measure the distance between them --when that was done I moved them in a little closer and measured again--I split the difference between the measurements and designed the ring around the cone with the magnets and included the dimension of the magnet to the ring and achieved good dimensions. As you can see my cones are balanced.

                      Val



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                    • homekiwi
                      Hi David, ... With the trial setup, the outer ring was rock-solid because it was clamped to the bench. It is the top-heaviness of the cone combined with the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 15, 2002
                        Hi David,

                        --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:
                        > I would make the frame if I were you. The amount of movement in the
                        > outer ring will definitely hamper your balancing efforts.


                        With the trial setup, the outer ring was rock-solid because it was
                        clamped to the bench. It is the top-heaviness of the cone combined
                        with the magnets preferring to mate top-to-bottom that meant that it
                        would never find a happy balance unless something was holding the
                        lower point from moving sideways.

                        I had to put
                        > my frame in the 45 gallon drum in order to get the frame rigid
                        enough to
                        > hold the cones. Also if the ring is in a frame you can make minor
                        > adjustments to the height of the ring which is EXTREMELY
                        IMPORTANT. A
                        > change of one millimetre can make the difference between balancing
                        and
                        > crashing. I can't stress this enough.


                        The frame is half built. I have used 18mm MDF board for
                        the chassis, and will put a six section steel shell around it for
                        stiffness. If I leave a 120 degree 'window' in the shell initially,
                        it will mean that the cones can be loaded into the side rather than
                        the top, which is 6'3" high and rather close to the roof. All going
                        well I can screw the last two steel sections on afterwards.



                        <snip>

                        > I just saw your picture. Can I say I think you have missed the
                        point of
                        > balancing. Don't worry about balancing the cone like this. You
                        need to
                        > have the magnets to do the balancing.


                        Which magnets are you referring to here please?

                        What balancing means is ensuring
                        > the outer ring of magnets is perfectly in line with the cones
                        magnets.
                        > Ie the outer ring has to be perfectly level and the cone rim should
                        be
                        > level.

                        Doesn't Mr Hamel say in several places that the outer ring magnets
                        should be slightly lower than the ones on the cones, so the cones are
                        held up and are weightless without the rejection magnet?

                        <snip>

                        > As an aside, my cones have been vibrating for a couple of months
                        now.

                        ******* WOAH!!! ******** Are you saying that you have a working
                        device that really does defy conventional scientific logic?

                        Would you be able/interested to post a video clip or sound file of it
                        operation? Alternatively, I'd be half keen to pop over for a weekend
                        to have a look myself...
                        http://web.archive.org/web/20011006202526/http://www.users.bigpond.com
                        /dkouk/45gd.html

                        Do you have a more up to date site these days?




                        > Though I haven't got any other effects I haven't ever really tried
                        to
                        > get measurements or anything. They just look cool sitting there and
                        > every now and then they "kick" like the wave suddenly coincides
                        with
                        > itself.

                        A similar thing happens with the cone on the springs. It makes three
                        different movements; a sway, a gyration, and a wobble -all out of
                        sync with e/o. When they occasionally coincide, a kind of twitch
                        occurs which adds a further random motion to its movement. All quite
                        interesting to watch.



                        Whoever said all this stuff is rubbish is very wrong and
                        > obviously lazy. Just make it. Your spring idea is interesting, I
                        > thought of that one and it will give you the desired movement.
                        That's
                        > something at least. You get to see the snake, just no bee.
                        >
                        > David K


                        Kind regards,
                        Andrew.
                      • homekiwi
                        Hi Val, What happens if you have just one cone in the outer ring, will it (any of them) still sit in place without the others for support? Perhaps it is not
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 15, 2002
                          Hi Val,

                          What happens if you have just one cone in the outer ring, will it
                          (any of them) still sit in place without the others for support?

                          Perhaps it is not important for this to happen, but it would remove
                          the chance of there being unseen 'stresses' within the assembled
                          stack if, for example, the middle cone was always trying to escape
                          sideways, and was being held in by the other cones.

                          The only reliable way that I can think of to acheive individual
                          balance is by using two rings of outer magnets, one to stop the cone
                          rim going down, and one to stop it tipping up. But that's getting a
                          bit overkill :-)

                          Andrew.

                          --- In hameltech@y..., Val Gruno <vgruno2000@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello homekiwi ,
                          > My method of choosing my gap went like this.
                          > I held 2 magnets together both in the repelling mode--ie south
                          south or north north--I brought them together until the field was so
                          strong that they wanted to slide sideways away from each other--then
                          I backed them off until you felt an equal force --at this point I
                          measured--or had somebody measure the distance between them --when
                          that was done I moved them in a little closer and measured again--I
                          split the difference between the measurements and designed the ring
                          around the cone with the magnets and included the dimension of the
                          magnet to the ring and achieved good dimensions. As you can see my
                          cones are balanced.
                          > Val
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
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                        • David K
                          Hi Andrew, Sorry if I am sounding misleading (I know what I mean :-) ) yes the outer rings need to be slightly lower than the cone rings. When I said the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 15, 2002
                            Hi Andrew,
                            Sorry if I am sounding misleading (I know what I mean :-) ) yes
                            the outer rings need to be slightly lower than the cone rings. When I
                            said the rings have to be perfectly aligned I mean they both need to be
                            parallel.

                            The magnets I am referring to are the outer ring magnets and the cone
                            magnets. In the picture I saw I thought you only had the cone magnets
                            and were trying to balance the cones. So I suppose you must then have
                            all the magnets. Cool.

                            > clamped to the bench. It is the top-heaviness of the cone combined
                            >with the magnets preferring to mate top-to-bottom that meant that it
                            >would never find a happy balance unless something was holding the
                            >lower point from moving sideways.
                            This is why I used strong base magnets to start with and had the whole
                            thing in the drum.

                            > is 6'3" high and rather close to the roof
                            REALLY? That's pretty big! Or is that on a stand because I think the
                            device needs to be isolated from the ground (perhaps why I never got
                            energy from it)

                            And yes I have had a working device for a long time now. I have told
                            all of you guys but no one really is interested. I also made my own WIS
                            device which also seemed to keep vibrating (though at the time I lived
                            next to a main road and have a feeling it was getting vibrations from
                            there.. or something). It is just a jar with a magnet suspended inside
                            and the jar sits on another magnet. The way I suspended the magnet
                            seems to integrate the isotope line. Since I now know how easy this
                            thing is to make I don't really care to show it off. You guys should
                            just build one yourself and get that satisfaction. I did make a small
                            film but since the vibration is so small you can't see it, you really
                            need to feel it. I know it sounds like I am doing a "Steve" but I
                            simply did what David Hamel told us to do and it worked. It isn't
                            rocket science :-) And remember that I haven't ever tried to tap energy
                            off (well I did try but got nothing so I gave up). I can give you the
                            wire wrap pictures, I got them from Brian St Claire who also got his
                            device working.
                            Finally I want to assure you that this device does not defy
                            conventional scientific logic. Its all in the year 12 school physics
                            books. You just need to understand how to apply it. Look into
                            vibrations and apply that knowledge to three cones.

                            RE website. I haven't really had time to do any more work with my
                            device and my website sort of got stale. Since it is in the archives
                            there I figured I would just take it down so no one thinks I am actually
                            active these days. Sorry, but I am happy to help anyone else with
                            these things.

                            David K


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: homekiwi [mailto:arthorp@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, 15 October 2002 6:29 PM
                            To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing

                            Hi David,

                            --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:
                            > I would make the frame if I were you. The amount of movement in the
                            > outer ring will definitely hamper your balancing efforts.


                            With the trial setup, the outer ring was rock-solid because it was
                            clamped to the bench. It is the top-heaviness of the cone combined
                            with the magnets preferring to mate top-to-bottom that meant that it
                            would never find a happy balance unless something was holding the
                            lower point from moving sideways.

                            I had to put
                            > my frame in the 45 gallon drum in order to get the frame rigid
                            enough to
                            > hold the cones. Also if the ring is in a frame you can make minor
                            > adjustments to the height of the ring which is EXTREMELY
                            IMPORTANT. A
                            > change of one millimetre can make the difference between balancing
                            and
                            > crashing. I can't stress this enough.


                            The frame is half built. I have used 18mm MDF board for
                            the chassis, and will put a six section steel shell around it for
                            stiffness. If I leave a 120 degree 'window' in the shell initially,
                            it will mean that the cones can be loaded into the side rather than
                            the top, which is 6'3" high and rather close to the roof. All going
                            well I can screw the last two steel sections on afterwards.



                            <snip>

                            > I just saw your picture. Can I say I think you have missed the
                            point of
                            > balancing. Don't worry about balancing the cone like this. You
                            need to
                            > have the magnets to do the balancing.


                            Which magnets are you referring to here please?

                            What balancing means is ensuring
                            > the outer ring of magnets is perfectly in line with the cones
                            magnets.
                            > Ie the outer ring has to be perfectly level and the cone rim should
                            be
                            > level.

                            Doesn't Mr Hamel say in several places that the outer ring magnets
                            should be slightly lower than the ones on the cones, so the cones are
                            held up and are weightless without the rejection magnet?

                            <snip>

                            > As an aside, my cones have been vibrating for a couple of months
                            now.

                            ******* WOAH!!! ******** Are you saying that you have a working
                            device that really does defy conventional scientific logic?

                            Would you be able/interested to post a video clip or sound file of it
                            operation? Alternatively, I'd be half keen to pop over for a weekend
                            to have a look myself...
                            http://web.archive.org/web/20011006202526/http://www.users.bigpond.com
                            /dkouk/45gd.html

                            Do you have a more up to date site these days?




                            > Though I haven't got any other effects I haven't ever really tried
                            to
                            > get measurements or anything. They just look cool sitting there and
                            > every now and then they "kick" like the wave suddenly coincides
                            with
                            > itself.

                            A similar thing happens with the cone on the springs. It makes three
                            different movements; a sway, a gyration, and a wobble -all out of
                            sync with e/o. When they occasionally coincide, a kind of twitch
                            occurs which adds a further random motion to its movement. All quite
                            interesting to watch.



                            Whoever said all this stuff is rubbish is very wrong and
                            > obviously lazy. Just make it. Your spring idea is interesting, I
                            > thought of that one and it will give you the desired movement.
                            That's
                            > something at least. You get to see the snake, just no bee.
                            >
                            > David K


                            Kind regards,
                            Andrew.



                            Header Codes
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                            11112: Building and balancing, progress
                            11113: David Hamel reports
                            11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                            OT: "Off Topic"

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                          • Nathan Young
                            Val, would you have happened to post the pictures of your machined cones? I might have missed them. and if you havnt could you please? if you can. Thanx Nathan
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 15, 2002
                              Val,
                              would you have happened to post the pictures of your machined cones? I might
                              have missed them. and if you havnt could you please? if you can.
                              Thanx
                              Nathan


                              >From: Val Gruno <vgruno2000@...>
                              >Reply-To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: RE: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing
                              >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:03:53 -0700 (PDT)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi David K,
                              >The cones can be made in many different ways, the picture of my cone is my
                              >cone. Made out of solid aluminum machined to this shape.
                              >It took 4 hours to machine one cone. So figure 12 hours for 3. The cone
                              >weight (each cone is @ 110 grams. Prior to additional machining they
                              >weighed considerably more and crashed when I tried to balance the third
                              >cone on top. My magnets are @ 12mm in dia. and @ 4mm thick. An inner and
                              >outer cone is not necessary but seeing the success Bryan has had with his I
                              >think most are following his example and I think it is a wise choice. If I
                              >am correct he adds water between the inner and outer cones to adjust the
                              >weight of each cone. If additional weight is required in my cones I would
                              >need to add lead or some other material.
                              >If you have any other questions about what I did feel free to ask.
                              >Val
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >---------------------------------
                              >Do you Yahoo!?
                              >Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
                              >faith.yahoo.com




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                            • johndavidpasley
                              Hi David, Well done getting your device to work! Dont worry people are interested, but dont expect a landslide. Given there are 308 members on this group and
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 15, 2002
                                Hi David,

                                Well done getting your device to work! Dont worry people are
                                interested, but dont expect a landslide. Given there are 308 members
                                on this group and only 5 or so ever make any contribution to Mr Hamel
                                himself, they are not all going to be piling to your door!! Although
                                i believe the barrel device will work under a number of different
                                variations, your design appears close to the original Mr Hamel device
                                with parrallel magnets to rings and a double cone.

                                I dont believe you will get more than just perpetual motion (pretty
                                good in itself) unless you have the top rejection magnet working in
                                conjunction with the top cone magnet, this is where you get 'the
                                spark'. You also would need to cover the device, such as a barrel. A
                                problem arises then, as your device will become detectable via the
                                electricity board and perhaps more. An expensive way of shielding a
                                device that I have discussed with Mr Hamel is granite shielding. You
                                would need 8" thick all around the machine, this is likely to be many
                                thousands of dollars, though perhaps you could try thinner. The other
                                option is to restrict testing to areas several miles from both
                                electricity cables and your own home. I dont think you will have a
                                problem unless you have a cover. Please do anything you can do share
                                your design and get other people up and running, many are missing
                                something obvious to you or using the wrong materials. Unfortunately
                                most members are happy just sitting down, sprouting non peer reviewed
                                rubbish, I wish people wouldn't as my delete button is getting worn
                                out.

                                Regards

                                John

                                --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:
                                > I would make the frame if I were you. The amount of movement in the
                                > outer ring will definitely hamper your balancing efforts. I had to
                                put
                                > my frame in the 45 gallon drum in order to get the frame rigid
                                enough to
                                > hold the cones. Also if the ring is in a frame you can make minor
                                > adjustments to the height of the ring which is EXTREMELY
                                IMPORTANT. A
                                > change of one millimetre can make the difference between balancing
                                and
                                > crashing. I can't stress this enough.
                                >
                                > When I had all my cones in and balanced I actually had to add
                                > another 2kg of lead into each cone to get them moving right. I
                                used the
                                > lead to even out the weight of the cones.
                                > My gap is almost an inch. That is due to the strong magnets I
                                > used. They are :
                                > 10011 D29* 10mm
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I bought them from here: http://www.magneticforce.com.au/
                                >
                                > They are actually quite strong and then when you have a ring of
                                them you
                                > start to realise how weak the magnets could have been. Every time
                                > someone mentions neodymium magnets I have a laugh. They would be so
                                > strong I would actually say it might be dangerous.
                                >
                                >
                                > I just saw your picture. Can I say I think you have missed the
                                point of
                                > balancing. Don't worry about balancing the cone like this. You
                                need to
                                > have the magnets to do the balancing. What balancing means is
                                ensuring
                                > the outer ring of magnets is perfectly in line with the cones
                                magnets.
                                > Ie the outer ring has to be perfectly level and the cone rim should
                                be
                                > level. I made my outer ring adjustable so I could raise it at 4
                                points
                                > around the outside. I also used electrical tape to hold the cone
                                magnet
                                > ring in place allowing me to perform small adjustments. You won't
                                need
                                > to attach the cone ring too strongly at the start as long as it's a
                                > tight fit. Because the ring of magnets is suspended (and quite
                                heavy)
                                > and the cone shape stops it from flipping over, the cone can be
                                riveted
                                > later when you have "balanced" it. Sorry, I have always known that
                                > people missed the point of balancing. A lot of the hameltech stuff
                                uses
                                > words differently to how they are defined, just listen to David
                                Hamel
                                > for a minute and you'll understand :-)
                                > The minor imperfections of the out of balanced cone will not
                                > matter once you get it into the magnetic frame.
                                >
                                >
                                > As an aside, my cones have been vibrating for a couple of months
                                now.
                                > Though I haven't got any other effects I haven't ever really tried
                                to
                                > get measurements or anything. They just look cool sitting there and
                                > every now and then they "kick" like the wave suddenly coincides
                                with
                                > itself. Whoever said all this stuff is rubbish is very wrong and
                                > obviously lazy. Just make it. Your spring idea is interesting, I
                                > thought of that one and it will give you the desired movement.
                                That's
                                > something at least. You get to see the snake, just no bee.
                                >
                                > David K
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: homekiwi [mailto:arthorp@h...]
                                > Sent: Saturday, 12 October 2002 2:18 PM
                                > To: hameltech@y...
                                > Subject: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing
                                >
                                > Hi David,
                                >
                                > --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:
                                > > Hi Andrew,
                                > > Yep Balancing the cones is the hardest thing to do. And you
                                > > think one is hard wait till you do all three. :-)
                                >
                                > Hehe... yes, I am envisioning a fair bit of cussing will happen
                                > before that stage. For now I am just sitting one outer ring between
                                > the chair-back and the bench-top(see pic)
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Andrew%20Thorp/
                                > and trying to balance the cone in the middle. I really want to have
                                > three stable balanced cones before I proceed further and build the
                                > machine 'chassis'.
                                >
                                > > Truly though there are some things you can do to help. Don't
                                worry
                                > > about the top heaviness of the cones, that's why we use cones,
                                > because
                                > > they are top heavy. What you might need to look at is the height
                                > of the
                                > > outer ring of magnets. They should be a little lower than the
                                > magnets
                                > > on the cone.
                                >
                                >
                                > I think that my magnets are not really strong enough for the cone
                                > weight. If I take a little bit of weight by holding the bottom of
                                the
                                > cone it stays there not to bad, but just the slightest movement and
                                > it tips sideways.
                                >
                                >
                                > This is so when the cone sways to one side, it will then
                                > > be pushed back to the centre. If your cones are falling out then
                                I
                                > > would say your outer rings are too be, try decreasing the gap
                                > between
                                > > the outer ring and the cone ring.
                                >
                                > The gap is 1/4", as per the tree of life. I may decrease it a
                                little
                                > by trying thicker magnets soon.
                                >
                                >
                                > Also (I mentioned this the other day)
                                > > if your oscillator moves too much left and right then it will
                                also
                                > allow
                                > > the cones to fall out. That's why I used quit strong magnets.
                                > Though
                                > > as I got the balance right I was able to decrease the strength of
                                > the
                                > > magnets to get a better vibration. Perhaps you should try
                                holding
                                > the
                                > > base still to start with until your cones are being supported by
                                the
                                > > outer rings. Remember that when the cones are in the device they
                                > are
                                > > actually weightless because they are being supported by the outer
                                > ring
                                > > of magnets.
                                >
                                >
                                > This is exactly the stage I hope to achieve eventually, where all
                                > three cones support their selves, with their lower tips placed just
                                a
                                > hair's width above the next lower cone/oscillator. Then adding the
                                > rejection magnet to the top will close these gaps up and squash the
                                > cones out of alignment. Hopefully without that dreaded crashing
                                sound
                                > that I'm sure some people here are familiar with ;-)
                                >
                                >
                                > In fact you'll find the top cone should almost be floating
                                > > and the tip is in the middle cone only to stop it flipping over
                                and
                                > > falling out. Then when you put the top rejection magnet on it
                                will
                                > push
                                > > the cones down and you'll get the vibration(an aside to this is
                                > putting
                                > > the top magnet on to push the cones down is like pulling a piece
                                of
                                > > elastic and getting higher and higher vibrations. You just need
                                to
                                > push
                                > > down the right amount.)
                                > >
                                > > Hope that helps. I have included a picture of my device with all
                                > three
                                > > cones balanced and the top magnet in place just to prove that its
                                > > possible :-). Once you get it right it will be very easy to put
                                the
                                > > cones in again.
                                >
                                > How big is your magnet gap? I know pics can be deceptive sometimes,
                                > bit it looks quite big. Also, can you 'hang' each cone on its own
                                > without anything else in there and still have it stay?
                                >
                                > It ocurred to me last night, after speaking to another Hamel-er
                                here,
                                > that it would be a good simple test to replace all the magnets
                                around
                                > the rims with some springs, just to see what the isotope line is
                                > going to look like when set up. Although I don't expect it
                                to 'work'
                                > like that, it will give a good indication of how things will shape
                                up
                                > eventually, and possibly save a lot of expense buying the wrong
                                > magnets.
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks David,
                                >
                                > Andrew.
                                > >
                                > > David K
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Header Codes
                                > 11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
                                > 11112: Building and balancing, progress
                                > 11113: David Hamel reports
                                > 11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                                > OT: "Off Topic"
                                >
                                > Post message: hameltech@y...
                                > Subscribe: hameltech-subscribe@y...
                                > Unsubscribe: hameltech-unsubscribe@y...
                                > List owner: hameltech-owner@y...
                                >
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                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Ole Jensen
                                David, in this message #7787, you mentioned a WIS in a jar experiment that you did, that worked. do you have a picture of the device, it sounds simple to
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 15, 2002
                                  David,
                                  in this message #7787, you mentioned a WIS in a jar experiment
                                  that you did, that worked. do you have a picture of the
                                  device, it sounds simple to build, and I'd like to try it.

                                  Ole.
                                  --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:

                                  snip

                                  > all of you guys but no one really is interested. I also made my
                                  own WIS
                                  > device which also seemed to keep vibrating (though at the time I
                                  lived
                                  > next to a main road and have a feeling it was getting vibrations
                                  from
                                  > there.. or something). It is just a jar with a magnet suspended
                                  inside
                                  > and the jar sits on another magnet. The way I suspended the magnet
                                  > seems to integrate the isotope line. Since I now know how easy this
                                  > thing is to make I don't really care to show it off. You guys
                                  should
                                  > just build one yourself and get that satisfaction. I did make a
                                  small
                                  > film but since the vibration is so small you can't see it, you
                                  really
                                  > need to feel it.
                                • jszymanek2000
                                  Me too! I am always up to try simple experiments, as it is about all I have time for when I am in school. -Justin ... magnet ... this
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 15, 2002
                                    Me too!

                                    I am always up to try simple experiments, as it is about all I have
                                    time for when I am in school.

                                    -Justin


                                    --- In hameltech@y..., "Ole Jensen" <ole_thor@y...> wrote:
                                    > David,
                                    > in this message #7787, you mentioned a WIS in a jar experiment
                                    > that you did, that worked. do you have a picture of the
                                    > device, it sounds simple to build, and I'd like to try it.
                                    >
                                    > Ole.
                                    > --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > snip
                                    >
                                    > > all of you guys but no one really is interested. I also made my
                                    > own WIS
                                    > > device which also seemed to keep vibrating (though at the time I
                                    > lived
                                    > > next to a main road and have a feeling it was getting vibrations
                                    > from
                                    > > there.. or something). It is just a jar with a magnet suspended
                                    > inside
                                    > > and the jar sits on another magnet. The way I suspended the
                                    magnet
                                    > > seems to integrate the isotope line. Since I now know how easy
                                    this
                                    > > thing is to make I don't really care to show it off. You guys
                                    > should
                                    > > just build one yourself and get that satisfaction. I did make a
                                    > small
                                    > > film but since the vibration is so small you can't see it, you
                                    > really
                                    > > need to feel it.
                                  • Craig Stewart
                                    Just wondering if a crude Faraday shield would help with the EM radiation. Maybe just a box made of aluminium sheet around it. Craig Stewart ...
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 15, 2002
                                      Just wondering if a crude Faraday shield would help with the EM radiation.
                                      Maybe just a box made of aluminium sheet
                                      around it.


                                      Craig Stewart





                                      >From: "johndavidpasley" <john@...>
                                      >Reply-To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing
                                      >Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:38:38 -0000
                                      >
                                      >Hi David,
                                      >
                                      >Well done getting your device to work! Dont worry people are
                                      >interested, but dont expect a landslide. Given there are 308 members
                                      >on this group and only 5 or so ever make any contribution to Mr Hamel
                                      >himself, they are not all going to be piling to your door!! Although
                                      >i believe the barrel device will work under a number of different
                                      >variations, your design appears close to the original Mr Hamel device
                                      >with parrallel magnets to rings and a double cone.
                                      >
                                      >I dont believe you will get more than just perpetual motion (pretty
                                      >good in itself) unless you have the top rejection magnet working in
                                      >conjunction with the top cone magnet, this is where you get 'the
                                      >spark'. You also would need to cover the device, such as a barrel. A
                                      >problem arises then, as your device will become detectable via the
                                      >electricity board and perhaps more. An expensive way of shielding a
                                      >device that I have discussed with Mr Hamel is granite shielding. You
                                      >would need 8" thick all around the machine, this is likely to be many
                                      >thousands of dollars, though perhaps you could try thinner. The other
                                      >option is to restrict testing to areas several miles from both
                                      >electricity cables and your own home. I dont think you will have a
                                      >problem unless you have a cover. Please do anything you can do share
                                      >your design and get other people up and running, many are missing
                                      >something obvious to you or using the wrong materials. Unfortunately
                                      >most members are happy just sitting down, sprouting non peer reviewed
                                      >rubbish, I wish people wouldn't as my delete button is getting worn
                                      >out.
                                      >
                                      >Regards
                                      >
                                      >John


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                                    • homekiwi
                                      Hi David, ... ... the ... Yes, that is the height of the drum from the ground. I put a couple more pics here of how the chassis is coming along. PVA
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 16, 2002
                                        Hi David,

                                        --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:

                                        <snip>
                                        > > is 6'3" high and rather close to the roof
                                        > REALLY? That's pretty big! Or is that on a stand because I think
                                        the
                                        > device needs to be isolated from the ground (perhaps why I never got
                                        > energy from it)

                                        Yes, that is the height of the drum from the ground.

                                        I put a couple more pics here of how the chassis is coming along. PVA
                                        glue and offcuts for strength.
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Andrew%20Thorp/

                                        Would living on the first floor count as being 'off the ground'? The
                                        concrete and carpet are such good insulators that I have touched a
                                        live mains wire and not even tripped the RCD.


                                        >
                                        > And yes I have had a working device for a long time now.


                                        If you stop it with your finger, how long does it take for the
                                        vibration to resume? From private conversation I here that another
                                        similar machine took a few minutes to get going again after stopping.

                                        <snip>

                                        > Finally I want to assure you that this device does not defy
                                        > conventional scientific logic. Its all in the year 12 school
                                        physics
                                        > books. You just need to understand how to apply it.

                                        Conventional wisdom says that any mechanical device with no input
                                        source will stop after all of its kinetic energy has been expended. I
                                        imagine a 3CD would do this in well under an hour if there were no
                                        aether/whatever energy input.

                                        To say that a mechanical device with no scientifically recognised
                                        energy input that can continuously move for months at a time obeys
                                        highschool physics is a brave statement David :-)

                                        Would you be able to please elaborate a little on what of
                                        conventional science an operative 3CD does not defy?

                                        Look into
                                        > vibrations and apply that knowledge to three cones.
                                        >
                                        > RE website. I haven't really had time to do any more work with my
                                        > device and my website sort of got stale. Since it is in the
                                        archives
                                        > there I figured I would just take it down so no one thinks I am
                                        actually
                                        > active these days. Sorry, but I am happy to help anyone else with
                                        > these things.
                                        >
                                        > David K

                                        Regards,

                                        Andrew.
                                      • billsaleen
                                        I have a question about this granite shielding. I have also heard it mentioned as being 8 thick around David Hamel s ship. 1. Does it have to be 8 thick, or
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 16, 2002
                                          I have a question about this granite shielding. I have also heard it
                                          mentioned as being 8" thick around David Hamel's ship.
                                          1. Does it have to be 8" thick, or is it proportional? ie. a ship half
                                          the size of David's using only 4" thick granite.

                                          2. Does it have to be [red] granite, or could it be something like
                                          cement? If not for the ship, then at least for shielding the 3CD as
                                          mentioned below?

                                          - Bill



                                          > A problem arises then, as your device will become detectable via the
                                          > electricity board and perhaps more. An expensive way of shielding a
                                          > device that I have discussed with Mr Hamel is granite shielding. You
                                          > would need 8" thick all around the machine, this is likely to be
                                          > many
                                          > thousands of dollars, though perhaps you could try thinner. The
                                          > other
                                          > option is to restrict testing to areas several miles from both
                                          > electricity cables and your own home.


                                          > Regards
                                          >
                                          > John
                                        • David K
                                          Heres the best pictures I have. I had the jar sitting on a coffee cup because the magnet in the bottom of the cup was pretty strong. I have since moved house
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 17, 2002
                                            Heres the best pictures I have. I had the jar sitting on a coffee cup
                                            because the magnet in the bottom of the cup was pretty strong. I have
                                            since moved house and the device is no more. I'll try to put together a
                                            plan because its hard to see what I did here. I have mentioned this on
                                            the group in the past, about a year and a month ago.
                                            Breifly: the magnet is attached to a wood disc. The disc is
                                            then attached to a skewer (for shashlicks) made out of bamboo. Then I
                                            attached a string from the top of the skewer to the lid of the jar.
                                            Then I put the lid of the jar on the jar. The magnets are in repulsion.
                                            The idea came from the last picture of my device where I had the top
                                            magnet hanging from the roof. The cones stopped moving but the pendulum
                                            kept moving! My theory is that the dangling magnet is skirting around
                                            the magnetic field at the point that is the same magnetic strength all
                                            around. Hmm how can I explain this better?? Imagine you have a ball.
                                            There will be a ring around the ball that is always the same distance
                                            from a point directly above the ball. If you imagine the ball as the
                                            magnetic field and tie a magnet on a string to the point above the
                                            "ball" then the magnet will move in a circle above the lower magnet.
                                            Then you need to raise that pendulum until the circlular path is almost
                                            a point. If you go too far the magnet will stop but if you get it at
                                            the right point the magnet should never be able to find its equilibrium
                                            point and keep jiggling around.

                                            Tell me how you go if you make one. As I said I lived next to a main
                                            road and this device would be VERY sensitive to vibrations. So perhaps
                                            it isn't perpetual but simply receiving energy from around the world due
                                            to the noisy vibrational environment.

                                            I am always willing to help. I feel I totally understand these devices
                                            so hit me with your best shot. I would love to make a flying machine
                                            but at the moment most of my time is spent with work and my Fiat 124
                                            spider so I haven't done much to my device for ages.

                                            David K

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Ole Jensen [mailto:ole_thor@...]
                                            Sent: Wednesday, 16 October 2002 3:27 AM
                                            To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing

                                            David,
                                            in this message #7787, you mentioned a WIS in a jar experiment
                                            that you did, that worked. do you have a picture of the
                                            device, it sounds simple to build, and I'd like to try it.

                                            Ole.
                                            --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:

                                            snip

                                            > all of you guys but no one really is interested. I also made my
                                            own WIS
                                            > device which also seemed to keep vibrating (though at the time I
                                            lived
                                            > next to a main road and have a feeling it was getting vibrations
                                            from
                                            > there.. or something). It is just a jar with a magnet suspended
                                            inside
                                            > and the jar sits on another magnet. The way I suspended the magnet
                                            > seems to integrate the isotope line. Since I now know how easy this
                                            > thing is to make I don't really care to show it off. You guys
                                            should
                                            > just build one yourself and get that satisfaction. I did make a
                                            small
                                            > film but since the vibration is so small you can't see it, you
                                            really
                                            > need to feel it.



                                            Header Codes
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                                          • David K
                                            Hi Justin, I have been waiting to see how your WIS is going. I had high hope for that project. I thought you did a pretty impressive job! Then again Uni
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 17, 2002
                                              Hi Justin,
                                              I have been waiting to see how your WIS is going. I had high
                                              hope for that project. I thought you did a pretty impressive job! Then
                                              again Uni sure takes up a lot of time, especially engineering...

                                              David K

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: jszymanek2000 [mailto:jszymanek2000@...]
                                              Sent: Wednesday, 16 October 2002 8:22 AM
                                              To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing

                                              Me too!

                                              I am always up to try simple experiments, as it is about all I have
                                              time for when I am in school.

                                              -Justin


                                              --- In hameltech@y..., "Ole Jensen" <ole_thor@y...> wrote:
                                              > David,
                                              > in this message #7787, you mentioned a WIS in a jar experiment
                                              > that you did, that worked. do you have a picture of the
                                              > device, it sounds simple to build, and I'd like to try it.
                                              >
                                              > Ole.
                                              > --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > snip
                                              >
                                              > > all of you guys but no one really is interested. I also made my
                                              > own WIS
                                              > > device which also seemed to keep vibrating (though at the time I
                                              > lived
                                              > > next to a main road and have a feeling it was getting vibrations
                                              > from
                                              > > there.. or something). It is just a jar with a magnet suspended
                                              > inside
                                              > > and the jar sits on another magnet. The way I suspended the
                                              magnet
                                              > > seems to integrate the isotope line. Since I now know how easy
                                              this
                                              > > thing is to make I don't really care to show it off. You guys
                                              > should
                                              > > just build one yourself and get that satisfaction. I did make a
                                              > small
                                              > > film but since the vibration is so small you can't see it, you
                                              > really
                                              > > need to feel it.



                                              Header Codes
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                                              11112: Building and balancing, progress
                                              11113: David Hamel reports
                                              11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                                              OT: "Off Topic"

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                                            • David K
                                              I found that I would get very tired when I worked on my device and feel generally unwell...? that’s the only effect that I wish I could shield. That’s the
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 17, 2002
                                                I found that I would get very tired when I worked on my device and feel
                                                generally unwell...? that’s the only effect that I wish I could shield.
                                                That’s the other reason I stopped experimenting for now. I figure I set
                                                up some negative orgone generator or something.

                                                David K

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Craig Stewart [mailto:craigstewart72@...]
                                                Sent: Wednesday, 16 October 2002 8:46 AM
                                                To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing

                                                Just wondering if a crude Faraday shield would help with the EM
                                                radiation.
                                                Maybe just a box made of aluminium sheet
                                                around it.


                                                Craig Stewart





                                                >From: "johndavidpasley" <john@...>
                                                >Reply-To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                                                >To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: [hameltech] Re: Individual Cone Balancing
                                                >Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:38:38 -0000
                                                >
                                                >Hi David,
                                                >
                                                >Well done getting your device to work! Dont worry people are
                                                >interested, but dont expect a landslide. Given there are 308 members
                                                >on this group and only 5 or so ever make any contribution to Mr Hamel
                                                >himself, they are not all going to be piling to your door!! Although
                                                >i believe the barrel device will work under a number of different
                                                >variations, your design appears close to the original Mr Hamel device
                                                >with parrallel magnets to rings and a double cone.
                                                >
                                                >I dont believe you will get more than just perpetual motion (pretty
                                                >good in itself) unless you have the top rejection magnet working in
                                                >conjunction with the top cone magnet, this is where you get 'the
                                                >spark'. You also would need to cover the device, such as a barrel. A
                                                >problem arises then, as your device will become detectable via the
                                                >electricity board and perhaps more. An expensive way of shielding a
                                                >device that I have discussed with Mr Hamel is granite shielding. You
                                                >would need 8" thick all around the machine, this is likely to be many
                                                >thousands of dollars, though perhaps you could try thinner. The other
                                                >option is to restrict testing to areas several miles from both
                                                >electricity cables and your own home. I dont think you will have a
                                                >problem unless you have a cover. Please do anything you can do share
                                                >your design and get other people up and running, many are missing
                                                >something obvious to you or using the wrong materials. Unfortunately
                                                >most members are happy just sitting down, sprouting non peer reviewed
                                                >rubbish, I wish people wouldn't as my delete button is getting worn
                                                >out.
                                                >
                                                >Regards
                                                >
                                                >John


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                                              • David K
                                                Being on the first floor would count. It s the earth you want to be isolated from. If I stop my 45gd with my finger it start when I let go. If the device is
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Oct 17, 2002
                                                  Being on the first floor would count. It's the earth you want to be
                                                  isolated from. If I stop my 45gd with my finger it start when I let go.
                                                  If the device is perfectly still it will start by itself. Unless I take
                                                  the top magnet off. I don't have a lid for the device because I miss
                                                  judged the height of the cones and the lid won't fit :P. There's
                                                  another reason for the lack of electrical activity. My goal was to see
                                                  perpetual motion.

                                                  >Conventional wisdom says that any mechanical device with no input
                                                  >source will stop after all of its kinetic energy has been expended. I
                                                  >imagine a 3CD would do this in well under an hour if there were no
                                                  >aether/whatever energy input.
                                                  Actually it doesn't say this at all. It says that an object in motion
                                                  will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. With the
                                                  set up of the 3cd there is no external force because the cones are
                                                  weightless. Its like if you were in space and spun a cone. It would
                                                  keep going forever. Sure the air provided resistance but if the cones
                                                  cannot find their point of equilibrium then they will keep moving.


                                                  > To say that a mechanical device with no scientifically recognised
                                                  >energy input that can continuously move for months at a time obeys
                                                  >high school physics is a brave statement David :-)

                                                  fair call. I spent years at University learning about mathematics that
                                                  said there is no limit to the number of dimensions in the universe. You
                                                  can do maths for all this. The problem is that "Conventional" thinking
                                                  doesn't allow perpetual motion so the lecturers aren't going to risk
                                                  making a fool of themselves by teaching this to you. But if you
                                                  actually look hard enough you'll realise there are no limits. There is
                                                  no reason why we could actually be living in a seven dimensional
                                                  universe and the extra energy is coming from another dimension. This is
                                                  what the theories of um (I have had a mental blank. There are waves
                                                  where to get the result of super positioning you need to add the waves
                                                  that you can "see" and a set of waves that don't exist. This is what
                                                  imaginary numbers are all about) SCALAR WAVES. That's it. This is where
                                                  if you have a wave function that describes say the energy at a point in
                                                  space, you also have a part of the wave that is the same for the wave
                                                  regardless of the location, it relies on time (ever seen a spark gap
                                                  transmitter?). You see they teach you how to add and subtract imaginary
                                                  numbers but they never actually tell you what they are used for. They
                                                  are used in Fourier transforms when you are trying to pull out a
                                                  frequency from a bunch of superimposed waves in signal analysis. But
                                                  the use of imaginary numbers is much more interesting when you apply it
                                                  to magnetics and the whole hameltech vibrations.

                                                  >Would you be able to please elaborate a little on what of
                                                  >conventional science an operative 3CD does not defy?

                                                  -Imaginary numbers
                                                  -Scalar waves
                                                  -Newtons laws of motion.
                                                  -Wave mechanics
                                                  -Vibrations in a string
                                                  -Multi dimensional vector mathematics (look into matrices, they are more
                                                  useful than computer graphics programming :-) )
                                                  -magnetics
                                                  just to name a few.


                                                  Remember that the hameltech is a combination of all these aspects of
                                                  physics and you can certainly read about all this in a year 12 physics
                                                  book. The one I have is "Physics for scientists and engineers" written
                                                  by Raymond A Searway (ok I lied, this is a first year uni physics book)
                                                  interestingly this book is so anti-alternate science that it calls the
                                                  strength of magnets Weber per meter square. There is one paragraph that
                                                  explains that it is also called a Tesla but it doesn't mention Tesla at
                                                  all or say that he is the reason why we call it a Tesla.

                                                  I hope this has given you some places to go and read about this info and
                                                  what to look for. It isn't simple, don't get me wrong, its just that
                                                  its all there in black and white.

                                                  This is why I don't get too excited about all this anymore because the
                                                  reason this isn't mainstream is (as far as I can see) because humans are
                                                  lazy by nature. Once we have something that works we tend to hold on to
                                                  it for dear life. Like fossil fuels.

                                                  David K

                                                  Points to ponder:
                                                  (I could say how does the earth keep moving in space or I could ask how
                                                  does an electron keep moving but these are really just examples of
                                                  things we don't yet understand. If my device ran for 20 million years
                                                  and then stopped, would you call that perpetual motion? Obviously not by
                                                  definition but you are never going to prove it.) There are microscopes
                                                  that can see at an atomic level. These are called scanning tunnelling
                                                  microscopes. They work on the principle that a solid object (an
                                                  electron) has a very low probability of existing in the middle of a
                                                  barrier but it could exist on either side of the barrier. If it started
                                                  on one side and then suddenly appeared on the other side you would have
                                                  to assume that it has tunnelled through the barrier. The truth of the
                                                  matter is that there is a real possibility that every atom in your body
                                                  could suddenly "jump" to another location in space. The reason it will
                                                  not ever happen is because the probability of this is sooooo
                                                  astronomically high. The probability of a single electron doing this is
                                                  extremely high though more likely. And they take advantage of this to
                                                  make a map of the surface of any substance.
                                                  My point here is that you would tell me that it impossible to walk
                                                  through walls. But there exists machines that make matter go through
                                                  matter in use today. So what else is possible????? Don't limit your
                                                  mind to what you see or hear. You will always find another possibility,
                                                  that's the beauty of the universe.



                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: homekiwi [mailto:arthorp@...]
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, 16 October 2002 4:32 PM
                                                  To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [hameltech] 6' 3" 3CD

                                                  Hi David,

                                                  --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:

                                                  <snip>
                                                  > > is 6'3" high and rather close to the roof
                                                  > REALLY? That's pretty big! Or is that on a stand because I think
                                                  the
                                                  > device needs to be isolated from the ground (perhaps why I never got
                                                  > energy from it)

                                                  Yes, that is the height of the drum from the ground.

                                                  I put a couple more pics here of how the chassis is coming along. PVA
                                                  glue and offcuts for strength.
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Andrew%20Thorp/

                                                  Would living on the first floor count as being 'off the ground'? The
                                                  concrete and carpet are such good insulators that I have touched a
                                                  live mains wire and not even tripped the RCD.


                                                  >
                                                  > And yes I have had a working device for a long time now.


                                                  If you stop it with your finger, how long does it take for the
                                                  vibration to resume? From private conversation I here that another
                                                  similar machine took a few minutes to get going again after stopping.

                                                  <snip>

                                                  > Finally I want to assure you that this device does not defy
                                                  > conventional scientific logic. Its all in the year 12 school
                                                  physics
                                                  > books. You just need to understand how to apply it.

                                                  Conventional wisdom says that any mechanical device with no input
                                                  source will stop after all of its kinetic energy has been expended. I
                                                  imagine a 3CD would do this in well under an hour if there were no
                                                  aether/whatever energy input.

                                                  To say that a mechanical device with no scientifically recognised
                                                  energy input that can continuously move for months at a time obeys
                                                  highschool physics is a brave statement David :-)

                                                  Would you be able to please elaborate a little on what of
                                                  conventional science an operative 3CD does not defy?

                                                  Look into
                                                  > vibrations and apply that knowledge to three cones.
                                                  >
                                                  > RE website. I haven't really had time to do any more work with my
                                                  > device and my website sort of got stale. Since it is in the
                                                  archives
                                                  > there I figured I would just take it down so no one thinks I am
                                                  actually
                                                  > active these days. Sorry, but I am happy to help anyone else with
                                                  > these things.
                                                  >
                                                  > David K

                                                  Regards,

                                                  Andrew.




                                                  Header Codes
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                                                  11113: David Hamel reports
                                                  11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                                                  OT: "Off Topic"

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                                                • homekiwi
                                                  Hi David, ... ... expended. I ... motion ... the ... would ... There are at least 10 different locations in a 3CD where energy is lost due to friction.
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Oct 18, 2002
                                                    Hi David,

                                                    --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:

                                                    <snip>

                                                    > >Conventional wisdom says that any mechanical device with no input
                                                    > >source will stop after all of its kinetic energy has been
                                                    expended. I
                                                    > >imagine a 3CD would do this in well under an hour if there were no
                                                    > >aether/whatever energy input.
                                                    > Actually it doesn't say this at all. It says that an object in
                                                    motion
                                                    > will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. With
                                                    the
                                                    > set up of the 3cd there is no external force because the cones are
                                                    > weightless. Its like if you were in space and spun a cone. It
                                                    would
                                                    > keep going forever.

                                                    There are at least 10 different locations in a 3CD where energy is
                                                    lost due to friction. A planet, to use that example, has no places
                                                    where energy is lost because it is surrounded by a vacuum. It keeps
                                                    its motion forever(ish) because it is in equilibrium, with no input
                                                    of kinetic energy, nor any output.

                                                    A bucket of water for an analogy: with the water representing kinetic
                                                    energy, the bucket representing the 'barrier' preventing it escaping
                                                    and any holes represent places where energy is lost from. With no
                                                    holes, the bucket naturally stays full, but even a tiny hole will
                                                    eventually empty it, and our 3CD has many such 'holes' (cone tip
                                                    pivots, oscillator cups/balls etc) where energy is lost. Alternately
                                                    we can accept that there are holes in the bucket (as every mechanical
                                                    system has) and simply add water at the same rate as it escapes. This
                                                    restores the equilibrium that we had before and keeps the bucket
                                                    full.

                                                    If your device has constant motion, and therefore a constant but
                                                    small energy loss through the physical contact points, then it has
                                                    little option but to have some sort of yet-to-be-discovered energy
                                                    source entering it in order to maintain its motion.


                                                    <snip>

                                                    The problem is that "Conventional" thinking
                                                    > doesn't allow perpetual motion so the lecturers aren't going to risk
                                                    > making a fool of themselves by teaching this to you.

                                                    The real reason no tutor teaches PM is that nobody yet has created it
                                                    in a lab situation. If you have created it in a repeatable and
                                                    controllable situation, may I strongly suggest you to find a more
                                                    open-minded professor (they do exist!) and get them to look over what
                                                    you have.

                                                    But if you
                                                    > actually look hard enough you'll realise there are no limits.
                                                    There is
                                                    > no reason why we could actually be living in a seven dimensional
                                                    > universe and the extra energy is coming from another dimension.
                                                    This is
                                                    > what the theories of um (I have had a mental blank. There are waves
                                                    > where to get the result of super positioning you need to add the
                                                    waves
                                                    > that you can "see" and a set of waves that don't exist. This is
                                                    what
                                                    > imaginary numbers are all about) SCALAR WAVES. That's it. This is
                                                    where
                                                    > if you have a wave function that describes say the energy at a
                                                    point in
                                                    > space, you also have a part of the wave that is the same for the
                                                    wave
                                                    > regardless of the location, it relies on time (ever seen a spark gap
                                                    > transmitter?). You see they teach you how to add and subtract
                                                    imaginary
                                                    > numbers but they never actually tell you what they are used for.
                                                    They
                                                    > are used in Fourier transforms when you are trying to pull out a
                                                    > frequency from a bunch of superimposed waves in signal analysis.
                                                    But
                                                    > the use of imaginary numbers is much more interesting when you
                                                    apply it
                                                    > to magnetics and the whole hameltech vibrations.
                                                    >
                                                    > >Would you be able to please elaborate a little on what of
                                                    > >conventional science an operative 3CD does not defy?
                                                    >
                                                    > -Imaginary numbers
                                                    > -Scalar waves
                                                    > -Newtons laws of motion.
                                                    > -Wave mechanics
                                                    > -Vibrations in a string
                                                    > -Multi dimensional vector mathematics (look into matrices, they are
                                                    more
                                                    > useful than computer graphics programming :-) )
                                                    > -magnetics
                                                    > just to name a few.



                                                    OK. I haven't any knowledge of most of these things, but Newton
                                                    by your definition above disallows PM in any non-equilibrium
                                                    situation.

                                                    <snip>

                                                    > This is why I don't get too excited about all this anymore because
                                                    the
                                                    > reason this isn't mainstream is (as far as I can see) because
                                                    humans are
                                                    > lazy by nature.

                                                    I think 'inert' is a better word for lazy. Inertness and
                                                    complacency... the reasons we are in this modern predicament.

                                                    At a very entertaining lecture I attended earlier this year, the
                                                    guest lecturer suggested us to 'get ert'. Ert being the
                                                    opposite of inert. Ert people are leaders by default, and anyone
                                                    giving hope to others, such as Mr Hamel (and the sundry leaders
                                                    around the world that America seeks to eliminate) will have followers
                                                    without even trying.

                                                    I challenge you David ;-) Please give us sheeple something real to
                                                    believe you with... a video of your device with a scope hooked to a
                                                    small coil showing the voltage waveform, or something like that would
                                                    definitely generate some interest, at least on my part anyway.
                                                    That is of course assuming that you want to share.

                                                    Once we have something that works we tend to hold on to
                                                    > it for dear life. Like fossil fuels.
                                                    >
                                                    > David K

                                                    Thanking you kindly,
                                                    Andrew.
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