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RE: [hameltech] oscillator frequency.

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  • David K
    Hi A, That s the way. We found this a while ago and I don t think anyone did anything with an adjustable magnet. Remember that the magnets in the oscillator
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002
      Hi A,
      That's the way. We found this a while ago and I don't think
      anyone did anything with an adjustable magnet. Remember that the
      magnets in the oscillator are actually optional. You don't need them.
      I found that they help in holding the cones from vibrating too much, or
      falling out of the base. Though I later learned that this is more to do
      with the gap between the rings and the cones (if you get this right you
      don't need the magnets in the base). I found that my magnets were too
      strong for the oscillator base and kept the whole platform too rigid. I
      later put steel plates over the magnets to try and shield the magnetic
      force, much the same as using the threaded rod you mention. I also got
      my base magnets from a microwave. They are pretty strong and I would
      probably use weaker magnets in future.

      Also the magnets could be used for extraction of energy. Brian St Clair
      might be able to fill you in on this.

      David K

      -----Original Message-----
      From: homekiwi [mailto:arthorp@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, 8 October 2002 7:42 PM
      To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [hameltech] oscillator frequency.

      Hi,

      I am currently building the oscillator plate, and have discovered
      that the natural frequency that it wants to wobble at is directly
      influenced by how close the ring magnets (from an old microwave) are
      together. the closer they are together, the higher the natural
      frequency, and the smaller the 'amplitude' of the vibration.

      Has anyone else played around with this? It would seem to be a way
      around something has always been on my mind: how the inertia of the
      moving balls/cups/wood is compensated for in the very fast vibration.
      This is exactly what the magnets do to the assembly.

      I am going to set the lower magnet up on a threaded rod, so that I
      can wind it in closer to increase the unit's natural frequency if
      required, and maybe it can be matched to that of the cones if they
      ever decide to vibrate for me.

      A.



      Header Codes
      11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
      11112: Building and balancing, progress
      11113: David Hamel reports
      11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
      OT: "Off Topic"

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    • thesaint9998
      I am going to use airgaps in my oscillator, I believe they are necessary. -Matt
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002
        I am going to use airgaps in my oscillator, I believe they are necessary.
        -Matt
      • Nathan Young
        has anyone tryed to build the oscillator plates out of solid aluminum and machine in the grooves ... the Weight plays a big part in the oscillation,or have the
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002
          has anyone tryed to build the oscillator plates out of solid aluminum and
          machine in the grooves ... the Weight plays a big part in the oscillation,or
          have the majority just made them out of plywood.


          >From: "David K" <dkouk@...>
          >Reply-To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
          >To: <hameltech@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: RE: [hameltech] oscillator frequency.
          >Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:23:26 +0930
          >
          >Hi A,
          > That's the way. We found this a while ago and I don't think
          >anyone did anything with an adjustable magnet. Remember that the
          >magnets in the oscillator are actually optional. You don't need them.
          >I found that they help in holding the cones from vibrating too much, or
          >falling out of the base. Though I later learned that this is more to do
          >with the gap between the rings and the cones (if you get this right you
          >don't need the magnets in the base). I found that my magnets were too
          >strong for the oscillator base and kept the whole platform too rigid. I
          >later put steel plates over the magnets to try and shield the magnetic
          >force, much the same as using the threaded rod you mention. I also got
          >my base magnets from a microwave. They are pretty strong and I would
          >probably use weaker magnets in future.
          >
          >Also the magnets could be used for extraction of energy. Brian St Clair
          >might be able to fill you in on this.
          >
          >David K
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: homekiwi [mailto:arthorp@...]
          >Sent: Tuesday, 8 October 2002 7:42 PM
          >To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [hameltech] oscillator frequency.
          >
          >Hi,
          >
          >I am currently building the oscillator plate, and have discovered
          >that the natural frequency that it wants to wobble at is directly
          >influenced by how close the ring magnets (from an old microwave) are
          >together. the closer they are together, the higher the natural
          >frequency, and the smaller the 'amplitude' of the vibration.
          >
          >Has anyone else played around with this? It would seem to be a way
          >around something has always been on my mind: how the inertia of the
          >moving balls/cups/wood is compensated for in the very fast vibration.
          >This is exactly what the magnets do to the assembly.
          >
          >I am going to set the lower magnet up on a threaded rod, so that I
          >can wind it in closer to increase the unit's natural frequency if
          >required, and maybe it can be matched to that of the cones if they
          >ever decide to vibrate for me.
          >
          >A.
          >
          >
          >
          >Header Codes
          >11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
          >11112: Building and balancing, progress
          >11113: David Hamel reports
          >11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
          >OT: "Off Topic"
          >
          >Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
          >Subscribe: hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >Unsubscribe: hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >List owner: hameltech-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Header Codes
          >11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
          >11112: Building and balancing, progress
          >11113: David Hamel reports
          >11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
          >OT: "Off Topic"
          >
          >Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
          >Subscribe: hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >Unsubscribe: hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >List owner: hameltech-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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        • homekiwi
          Hi David, I have read quite a bit on the magnet/no magnet debate, and it appears that the Bob Thomas Tree of Life drawings are perhaps where the idea has
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002
            Hi David,

            I have read quite a bit on the magnet/no magnet debate, and it
            appears that the Bob Thomas 'Tree of Life' drawings are perhaps where
            the idea has come from. It would as you say at least be a good way to
            hold the bits together while assembling it all.

            After thinking about it some more last night, I am getting the
            feeling that perhaps there is a relation between repulsion (rim)
            magnet strength, rim magnet gap, cone mass, and oscillator mass. The
            mass sets the natural frequency that each piece wants to oscillate
            at, but as I realised yesterday, this frequency can be 'artificially'
            increased by increasing the pull or push from magnets.

            The same kind of effect, although only in one dimension, happens when
            a bouncing basketball becomes trapped under something lower than its
            bounce height, like a table. It goes berserk, bouncing rapidly up and
            down between the two surfaces that trap it. The kinetic energy of
            the ball and the force that it hits the floor stay the same, but the
            bounce height gets swapped for the increased frequency.

            The 'amplitude' or amount of cone movement decreases as magnetic
            force and frequency increase, so a small movement = high freqency for
            the same mass. Isn't this exactly what we want?!

            Using a strong magnet set to hold the oscillator tight, and strong
            (ferrite strong) rim magnets with small spacing (as Mr Hamel has
            indicated many times) to keep them from moving too far sideways
            should end up with something that wants to resonate at a relatively
            (to the mass of the parts) high frequency.

            Any thoughts?

            A (ndrew. I shouldn't be so lazy with list emails.)

            --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:
            > Hi A,
            > That's the way. We found this a while ago and I don't think
            > anyone did anything with an adjustable magnet. Remember that the
            > magnets in the oscillator are actually optional. You don't need
            them.
            > I found that they help in holding the cones from vibrating too
            much, or
            > falling out of the base. Though I later learned that this is more
            to do
            > with the gap between the rings and the cones (if you get this right
            you
            > don't need the magnets in the base). I found that my magnets were
            too
            > strong for the oscillator base and kept the whole platform too
            rigid. I
            > later put steel plates over the magnets to try and shield the
            magnetic
            > force, much the same as using the threaded rod you mention. I also
            got
            > my base magnets from a microwave. They are pretty strong and I
            would
            > probably use weaker magnets in future.
            >
            > Also the magnets could be used for extraction of energy. Brian St
            Clair
            > might be able to fill you in on this.
            >
            > David K
          • Val Gruno
            Hi Nathan and the rest of the group, Have a look at thes pictures. I did have my base made out of aluminum and also had the cups machined. As you can see I did
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 8, 2002

               Hi Nathan and the rest of the group,

              Have a look at thes pictures. I did have my base made out of aluminum and also had the cups machined. As you can see I did put magnets at the bottom in atraction. This base movement is comparable to holding a slinky and shaking it. Very springy. Also a picture of what is completed up to now. As you can see by the picture all of the cones are balanced. Enjoy.

              Val

               



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            • David K
              Hi homekiwi, My Thoughts are that the frequency of the device will not be affected by the oscillator. You will probably find you need to weaken the magnets
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 9, 2002
                Hi homekiwi,
                My Thoughts are that the frequency of the device will not be
                affected by the oscillator. You will probably find you need to weaken
                the magnets otherwise the vibrations get dampened. The oscillator base
                is there to allow the tip of the bottom cone to move around.
                I have mentioned this in the past but I'll reiterate. The
                device is trying to set up an open ended vibration. If there was no
                oscillator base then the device would display a closed ended vibration.
                The difference is like this. Imagine you have a rope tied to a pole and
                then you flic the end. You'll see a wave move down the rope to the
                point where its tied to the pole. Then the wave will be reflected back
                but upside down. If on the other hand you tied the end of the rope to a
                ring and then put the ring over the pole you would get an open ended
                wave. This wave would be reflected back to you but the same side up as
                it started. This is what the hamel device is doing and why we have an
                oscillator base. The device will vibrate at the cones natural frequency
                and then you could probably "tune" the base magnets to resonate the
                device.
                At first I had the same idea as you with the stronger magnets
                giving smaller frequencies. I found that the problem was with the
                weight of the cones plus the fact that the cones are being pushed down
                meant the cones would either stop moving or collapse. That's when I
                decided to decrease the outer ring diameter. This kept the cones from
                falling out and by reducing the strength of the base magnets (placing
                metal over them) I ws able to get longer vibrations.

                David K

                -----Original Message-----
                From: homekiwi [mailto:arthorp@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, 9 October 2002 5:43 AM
                To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [hameltech] Re: oscillator frequency.

                Hi David,

                I have read quite a bit on the magnet/no magnet debate, and it
                appears that the Bob Thomas 'Tree of Life' drawings are perhaps where
                the idea has come from. It would as you say at least be a good way to
                hold the bits together while assembling it all.

                After thinking about it some more last night, I am getting the
                feeling that perhaps there is a relation between repulsion (rim)
                magnet strength, rim magnet gap, cone mass, and oscillator mass. The
                mass sets the natural frequency that each piece wants to oscillate
                at, but as I realised yesterday, this frequency can be 'artificially'
                increased by increasing the pull or push from magnets.

                The same kind of effect, although only in one dimension, happens when
                a bouncing basketball becomes trapped under something lower than its
                bounce height, like a table. It goes berserk, bouncing rapidly up and
                down between the two surfaces that trap it. The kinetic energy of
                the ball and the force that it hits the floor stay the same, but the
                bounce height gets swapped for the increased frequency.

                The 'amplitude' or amount of cone movement decreases as magnetic
                force and frequency increase, so a small movement = high freqency for
                the same mass. Isn't this exactly what we want?!

                Using a strong magnet set to hold the oscillator tight, and strong
                (ferrite strong) rim magnets with small spacing (as Mr Hamel has
                indicated many times) to keep them from moving too far sideways
                should end up with something that wants to resonate at a relatively
                (to the mass of the parts) high frequency.

                Any thoughts?

                A (ndrew. I shouldn't be so lazy with list emails.)

                --- In hameltech@y..., "David K" <dkouk@b...> wrote:
                > Hi A,
                > That's the way. We found this a while ago and I don't think
                > anyone did anything with an adjustable magnet. Remember that the
                > magnets in the oscillator are actually optional. You don't need
                them.
                > I found that they help in holding the cones from vibrating too
                much, or
                > falling out of the base. Though I later learned that this is more
                to do
                > with the gap between the rings and the cones (if you get this right
                you
                > don't need the magnets in the base). I found that my magnets were
                too
                > strong for the oscillator base and kept the whole platform too
                rigid. I
                > later put steel plates over the magnets to try and shield the
                magnetic
                > force, much the same as using the threaded rod you mention. I also
                got
                > my base magnets from a microwave. They are pretty strong and I
                would
                > probably use weaker magnets in future.
                >
                > Also the magnets could be used for extraction of energy. Brian St
                Clair
                > might be able to fill you in on this.
                >
                > David K



                Header Codes
                11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
                11112: Building and balancing, progress
                11113: David Hamel reports
                11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                OT: "Off Topic"

                Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                Subscribe: hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                Unsubscribe: hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                List owner: hameltech-owner@yahoogroups.com


                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • David K
                Val, That s the sexiest 3cd I ve ever seen!!!! Hows it going, or isn t it?? David K ... From: Val Gruno [mailto:vgruno2000@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, 9
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 9, 2002

                  Val,

                              That’s the sexiest 3cd I’ve ever seen!!!!  Hows it going, or isn’t it??

                   

                  David K

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Val Gruno [mailto:vgruno2000@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, 9 October 2002 11:37 AM
                  To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [hameltech] oscillator base

                   

                   Hi Nathan and the rest of the group,

                  Have a look at thes pictures. I did have my base made out of aluminum and also had the cups machined. As you can see I did put magnets at the bottom in atraction. This base movement is comparable to holding a slinky and shaking it. Very springy. Also a picture of what is completed up to now. As you can see by the picture all of the cones are balanced. Enjoy.

                  Val

                   

                   


                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
                  faith.yahoo.com

                  Header Codes
                  11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
                  11112: Building and balancing, progress
                  11113: David Hamel reports
                  11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                  OT: "Off Topic"

                  Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                  Subscribe:  hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Unsubscribe:  hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  List owner:  hameltech-owner@yahoogroups.com


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • sundraft@aol.com
                  Val, it really looks good, maybe you should post some drawings for the rest of us. Keep the good work and keep us informed about its function. Gene
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 9, 2002
                    Val, it really looks good, maybe you should post some drawings for the rest of us. Keep the good work and keep us informed about its function.
                    Gene
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