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Re: [hameltech] Re: The inner cones

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  • stevend@entrenet.com
    Justin, I know you mentioned it below but I want to stress it in case it wasn t clear enough. There are a couple of different ways of building this Hamel
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 4, 2000
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      Justin,
      I know you mentioned it below but I want to stress it in case it
      wasn't clear enough. There are a couple of different ways of
      building this Hamel "drum". Chris has one design and another is
      to try and copy exactly what Hamel did - which differs somewhat
      from Chris's design - and there are other ideas floating around
      too. If you see postings from me then they are giving information
      on the drum that Hamel built. I want to be careful in stating that
      I am not starting a competition here - just want to make sure
      everyone is clear on which approach their suggestions are for
      (as you were below, Justin). It may even be a good idea when
      asking questions, to mention which you are working on.

      In fact, Justin, I'm not an expert on Chris's approach but are
      you sure you meant "N-S" below?

      Cheers,
      Steve

      > Yes steel backing on the magnets is very important. You will need it for
      > the suspension rings as well. You can get steel sheets cheap at metal
      > supply houses. You could even cut strips out of soup cans and put them
      > together for that matter. Also for the polarity of rejection between
      > cone rims, if you are building according to Chris' M3CD plans,
      > S-S
      > N-S
      > S-S
      > Now Chris said all N-N works too, so you can pick. I also see you don't
      > have the center cone magnets in your diagram. Chris has stressed these
      > as important. All you donut magnets (ie oscillator, center cone magnets)
      > should point North up (except for the top rejection magnet)
      > The aluminum tape can be purchased at hardware stores.
      > You can get magnets at Radio Shack, AZ industries, or Edmund
      > Sciencetific http://www.edmundscientific.com/ These are my
      > recommendations anyway. Chris got his magnets at Edmund for the M3CD. He
      > used 1" discs for the rings, and 1.75" donuts for rejection magnets. He
      > used 1.125" donut magnet from radio shack for the center cones.
      > Good Luck!
      > -Justin
      >
      >
      >
      > Mike Morrissey wrote:
      > >
      > > Justin,
      > >
      > > Woah! I didn't know about backing the cone rim magnets with metal! I
      > > haven't gotten my magnets yet, so I'm safe. I was just gonna glue 'em
      > > to the plastic. I think I'll use thin banding...maybe that stuff that
      > > sinches hose connections---you know, with the little slots all along
      > > it.
      > >
      > > I noticed you mention some aluminun tape in a prior post, and then
      > > again in that last post. I am planning on using it. Where did you
      > > get it? What is it's manufactured purpose (flashing, door gasket)?
      > >
      > > I'm kinda stuck right now...I can't seem to commit to a magnet
      > > purchase!
      > >
      > > Keep Building!
      > >
      > > Mike Morrissey
      > >
      > > --- In hameltech@egroups.com, "The Szymanek's" <szymanek@c...> wrote:
      > > > Hi Mike,
      > > > You certainly may link to my page, that is fine. Please only
      > > link to
      > > > index.html or hameltech.html, but not any of the sub-links as they
      > > are
      > > > subject to change.
      > > > Nice diagram on your site. Using the coupler will allow you
      > > to make
      > > > your cones perfectly round, which is important. The main reason I
      > > gave
      > > > up on my first M3CD was that it wasn't round and everything was off
      > > (it
      > > > was a total mess). I must admit I have been thinking about building
      > > a
      > > > small M3CD (4" cones) again with couplers myself. When I do test
      > > runs I
      > > > like to have something to work on. I think with couplers building
      > > small
      > > > should be simple. I have tried to build cones with aluminum foil
      > > glued
      > > > to cardboard (from a cereal box). It is pretty sturdy, but I
      > > couldn't
      > > > make it form a cone very good. Contact with the coupler (which is
      > > > perfectly round) should fix that I suppose.
      > > > Do you have a steel (or aluminum) backing on your magnets, or
      > > are they
      > > > right on the plastic. They should be on a metal backing, I am just
      > > > checking to make sure you use one. You may also wish to cover the
      > > > outside of the magnets in aluminum. You can use aluminum foil or
      > > foil
      > > > tape works too.
      > > > Good Luck!
      > > > -Justin
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > mjm500@e... wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Happy 4th Everyone!!
      > > > >
      > > > > I don't think the inner cones do much other than providing a
      > > perfect
      > > > > pivot for the outer cone above it. Let's look at some of the
      > > > > inherent problems of building a machine correctly.
      > > > >
      > > > > 1. Magnet strength
      > > > > 2. Magnet spacing
      > > > > 3. Geometry/Mechanics
      > > > > 4. Air flow
      > > > >
      > > > > I personally think that 3. is the most important. Now if you
      > > choose
      > > > > you 1,2,and 4 willy nilly, you should still be able to get it to
      > > > > work, but the tolerances of the geometry (3) get nearly
      > > impossible to
      > > > > adhere to. That's why we are careful about 1,2, and 4.
      > > > >
      > > > > So the better you build the geometry, the less important becomes
      > > > > 1,2,and 4. So how can you build the cones and base perfectly? By
      > > > > using an inner cone as the pivot point. If the tip of the outer
      > > cone
      > > > > rests in the inner cone below it, then the pivot is theoretically
      > > a
      > > > > perfect singularity. By using pins and sockets, you may be
      > > fooling
      > > > > yourself into thinking your machine is all balanced, but any
      > > motion
      > > > > lost in the sockets will ruin the mechanics.
      > > > >
      > > > > Now here's the real problem. If you are so inclined to use the
      > > cone
      > > > > tip as the pin, and an inner cone below for the socket, the
      > > balancing
      > > > > of the cones becomes very difficult. You are basically saying that
      > > > > not only are you going to balance a cone, but you are going to
      > > > > balance it around a perfect singularity. That's pretty cocky! In
      > > my
      > > > > machine, I am using an outer cone, with the bare tip as
      > > the 'pin'. I
      > > > > am not using an inner cone for the socket. Instead, I am using a
      > > wood
      > > > > block with a plunge routed 'cone' shaped hole. This is exactly
      > > like
      > > > > an inner cone, except lining it up on the exact axis of the cone
      > > is
      > > > > hard. Even without magnets, just spinning a cone on it's pivot
      > > hole
      > > > > is showing me that my axis is not straight. Remember, when the
      > > > > machine is operating, it is vibrating. A machine may appear to
      > > wobble
      > > > > right in tests, but when you approach resonance at tiny
      > > oscillations,
      > > > > the alignment will go out of wack.
      > > > >
      > > > > Ok. There's the challenge. How do you solve it? Easy! Use a
      > > complete
      > > > > inner cone! If you have two cones - an inner and an outer - and
      > > you
      > > > > put them together, there is only one way to line them up -
      > > perfectly!
      > > > > This is assuming that both cones are perfect to begin with.
      > > > >
      > > > > The perfect circle rim of the inner cone can only sit inside the
      > > > > outer cone in one cross-sectional plane---perfectly perpendicular
      > > to
      > > > > the axis. That's just geometry.
      > > > >
      > > > > I have found some web sites that stamp, press, and extrude
      > > aluminum
      > > > > on a large scale. Some also state that they do short runs, and
      > > even
      > > > > prototype runs. I haven't called any to get a price, because I'm
      > > > > sure it would be expensive. But imagine having these cones made
      > > > > entirely of aluminum, perfectly pressed without any seams! Do
      > > some
      > > > > searches for aluminum extruders. They basically take a cone shaped
      > > > > mold and press it through hot sheet aluminum.
      > > > >
      > > > > By the way- here's my website (inspired by Justin)- There's not
      > > much
      > > > > there yet, but I'm working on it!
      > > > >
      > > > > http://members.xoom.com/mjm500/
      > > > >
      > > > > (sorry--i can't get my html code in this post to work--why?)
      > > > >
      > > > > Justin--do you mind if I put a link to your page on my page?
      > > > >
      > > > > Mike Mo.
      > > > >
      > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
      > > ------
      > > > > Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
      > > > > Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
      > > > > http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/4/_/264697/_/962632706/
      > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
      > > ------
      > > > >
      > > > > To Post a message, send it to: hameltech@e...
      > > > >
      > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hameltech-
      > > unsubscribe@e...
      > > > >
      > > > > Subscribe: hameltech-subscribe@egroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > > List owner: hameltech-owner@egroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > > URL to egroups hameltech page:
      > > > > http://www.egroups.com/group/hameltech
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      > >
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      > >
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      > > http://www.egroups.com/group/hameltech
      >
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      -------------------------------------------------------------
      Steven Dufresne stevend@...
    • The Szymanek's
      Hi Steve, That is a excellent point. There are several different designs out there, and each of us should pick which one we wish to work with. I suppose ideas
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 4, 2000
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        Hi Steve,
        That is a excellent point. There are several different designs out
        there, and each of us should pick which one we wish to work with. I
        suppose ideas can be crossed from the two designs. I recommend people
        building what they 'feel' is best to do. For the most part I will refer
        to Chris' design, because it the path I am pursuing. It is a good idea
        to make sure everyone knows this.
        I am sorry, that should be
        S-S
        N-N
        S-S
        I should have checked over that better (I hate typos :). The only place
        of attraction is the oscillator. This magnetic configuration is the same
        one that David Hamel used if I'm not mistaken.
        For those of you who are just starting to build machines, please let us
        know what design you are pursuing, so we provide you with the proper
        information. Although I believe some of the "pieces" of these two
        puzzles are interchangeable, but lets stick to one or the other as the
        machines are in some ways similar, but not the same.
        Mike I am assuming you are working on the M3CD (Chris' device) since you
        are building 4" cones. However if this is not the case let us know...
        -Justin




        stevend@... wrote:
        >
        > Justin,
        > I know you mentioned it below but I want to stress it in case it
        > wasn't clear enough. There are a couple of different ways of
        > building this Hamel "drum". Chris has one design and another is
        > to try and copy exactly what Hamel did - which differs somewhat
        > from Chris's design - and there are other ideas floating around
        > too. If you see postings from me then they are giving information
        > on the drum that Hamel built. I want to be careful in stating that
        > I am not starting a competition here - just want to make sure
        > everyone is clear on which approach their suggestions are for
        > (as you were below, Justin). It may even be a good idea when
        > asking questions, to mention which you are working on.
        >
        > In fact, Justin, I'm not an expert on Chris's approach but are
        > you sure you meant "N-S" below?
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Steve
        >
        > > Yes steel backing on the magnets is very important. You will need it for
        > > the suspension rings as well. You can get steel sheets cheap at metal
        > > supply houses. You could even cut strips out of soup cans and put them
        > > together for that matter. Also for the polarity of rejection between
        > > cone rims, if you are building according to Chris' M3CD plans,
        > > S-S
        > > N-S
        > > S-S
        > > Now Chris said all N-N works too, so you can pick. I also see you don't
        > > have the center cone magnets in your diagram. Chris has stressed these
        > > as important. All you donut magnets (ie oscillator, center cone magnets)
        > > should point North up (except for the top rejection magnet)
        > > The aluminum tape can be purchased at hardware stores.
        > > You can get magnets at Radio Shack, AZ industries, or Edmund
        > > Sciencetific http://www.edmundscientific.com/ These are my
        > > recommendations anyway. Chris got his magnets at Edmund for the M3CD. He
        > > used 1" discs for the rings, and 1.75" donuts for rejection magnets. He
        > > used 1.125" donut magnet from radio shack for the center cones.
        > > Good Luck!
        > > -Justin
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Mike Morrissey wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Justin,
        > > >
        > > > Woah! I didn't know about backing the cone rim magnets with metal! I
        > > > haven't gotten my magnets yet, so I'm safe. I was just gonna glue 'em
        > > > to the plastic. I think I'll use thin banding...maybe that stuff that
        > > > sinches hose connections---you know, with the little slots all along
        > > > it.
        > > >
        > > > I noticed you mention some aluminun tape in a prior post, and then
        > > > again in that last post. I am planning on using it. Where did you
        > > > get it? What is it's manufactured purpose (flashing, door gasket)?
        > > >
        > > > I'm kinda stuck right now...I can't seem to commit to a magnet
        > > > purchase!
        > > >
        > > > Keep Building!
        > > >
        > > > Mike Morrissey
        > > >
        > > > --- In hameltech@egroups.com, "The Szymanek's" <szymanek@c...> wrote:
        > > > > Hi Mike,
        > > > > You certainly may link to my page, that is fine. Please only
        > > > link to
        > > > > index.html or hameltech.html, but not any of the sub-links as they
        > > > are
        > > > > subject to change.
        > > > > Nice diagram on your site. Using the coupler will allow you
        > > > to make
        > > > > your cones perfectly round, which is important. The main reason I
        > > > gave
        > > > > up on my first M3CD was that it wasn't round and everything was off
        > > > (it
        > > > > was a total mess). I must admit I have been thinking about building
        > > > a
        > > > > small M3CD (4" cones) again with couplers myself. When I do test
        > > > runs I
        > > > > like to have something to work on. I think with couplers building
        > > > small
        > > > > should be simple. I have tried to build cones with aluminum foil
        > > > glued
        > > > > to cardboard (from a cereal box). It is pretty sturdy, but I
        > > > couldn't
        > > > > make it form a cone very good. Contact with the coupler (which is
        > > > > perfectly round) should fix that I suppose.
        > > > > Do you have a steel (or aluminum) backing on your magnets, or
        > > > are they
        > > > > right on the plastic. They should be on a metal backing, I am just
        > > > > checking to make sure you use one. You may also wish to cover the
        > > > > outside of the magnets in aluminum. You can use aluminum foil or
        > > > foil
        > > > > tape works too.
        > > > > Good Luck!
        > > > > -Justin
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > mjm500@e... wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Happy 4th Everyone!!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I don't think the inner cones do much other than providing a
        > > > perfect
        > > > > > pivot for the outer cone above it. Let's look at some of the
        > > > > > inherent problems of building a machine correctly.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > 1. Magnet strength
        > > > > > 2. Magnet spacing
        > > > > > 3. Geometry/Mechanics
        > > > > > 4. Air flow
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I personally think that 3. is the most important. Now if you
        > > > choose
        > > > > > you 1,2,and 4 willy nilly, you should still be able to get it to
        > > > > > work, but the tolerances of the geometry (3) get nearly
        > > > impossible to
        > > > > > adhere to. That's why we are careful about 1,2, and 4.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > So the better you build the geometry, the less important becomes
        > > > > > 1,2,and 4. So how can you build the cones and base perfectly? By
        > > > > > using an inner cone as the pivot point. If the tip of the outer
        > > > cone
        > > > > > rests in the inner cone below it, then the pivot is theoretically
        > > > a
        > > > > > perfect singularity. By using pins and sockets, you may be
        > > > fooling
        > > > > > yourself into thinking your machine is all balanced, but any
        > > > motion
        > > > > > lost in the sockets will ruin the mechanics.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Now here's the real problem. If you are so inclined to use the
        > > > cone
        > > > > > tip as the pin, and an inner cone below for the socket, the
        > > > balancing
        > > > > > of the cones becomes very difficult. You are basically saying that
        > > > > > not only are you going to balance a cone, but you are going to
        > > > > > balance it around a perfect singularity. That's pretty cocky! In
        > > > my
        > > > > > machine, I am using an outer cone, with the bare tip as
        > > > the 'pin'. I
        > > > > > am not using an inner cone for the socket. Instead, I am using a
        > > > wood
        > > > > > block with a plunge routed 'cone' shaped hole. This is exactly
        > > > like
        > > > > > an inner cone, except lining it up on the exact axis of the cone
        > > > is
        > > > > > hard. Even without magnets, just spinning a cone on it's pivot
        > > > hole
        > > > > > is showing me that my axis is not straight. Remember, when the
        > > > > > machine is operating, it is vibrating. A machine may appear to
        > > > wobble
        > > > > > right in tests, but when you approach resonance at tiny
        > > > oscillations,
        > > > > > the alignment will go out of wack.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Ok. There's the challenge. How do you solve it? Easy! Use a
        > > > complete
        > > > > > inner cone! If you have two cones - an inner and an outer - and
        > > > you
        > > > > > put them together, there is only one way to line them up -
        > > > perfectly!
        > > > > > This is assuming that both cones are perfect to begin with.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The perfect circle rim of the inner cone can only sit inside the
        > > > > > outer cone in one cross-sectional plane---perfectly perpendicular
        > > > to
        > > > > > the axis. That's just geometry.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I have found some web sites that stamp, press, and extrude
        > > > aluminum
        > > > > > on a large scale. Some also state that they do short runs, and
        > > > even
        > > > > > prototype runs. I haven't called any to get a price, because I'm
        > > > > > sure it would be expensive. But imagine having these cones made
        > > > > > entirely of aluminum, perfectly pressed without any seams! Do
        > > > some
        > > > > > searches for aluminum extruders. They basically take a cone shaped
        > > > > > mold and press it through hot sheet aluminum.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > By the way- here's my website (inspired by Justin)- There's not
        > > > much
        > > > > > there yet, but I'm working on it!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > http://members.xoom.com/mjm500/
        > > > > >
        > > > > > (sorry--i can't get my html code in this post to work--why?)
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Justin--do you mind if I put a link to your page on my page?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Mike Mo.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > > ------
        > > > > > Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
        > > > > > Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
        > > > > > http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/4/_/264697/_/962632706/
        > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > > ------
        > > > > >
        > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: hameltech@e...
        > > > > >
        > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hameltech-
        > > > unsubscribe@e...
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        >
        > -------------------------------------------------------------
        > Steven Dufresne stevend@...
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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