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Re: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status

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  • Dan LaRochelle
    Hi Matt, Why the quest for perfection on the cones? Do you think that is what is going to make the machine work? Regards, Dan ... From: demondoppel
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 10, 2006
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      Hi Matt,

      Why the quest for "perfection" on the cones?

      Do you think that is what is going to make the machine work?

      Regards,

      Dan



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: demondoppel <mattihorn@...>
      To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:23:31 AM
      Subject: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status

      ...

      I have decided to increase the precision of the cones now.
      I am having the skins laser cut out of a stock sheet.
      I have noticed, and this is due to my lack of understanding with
      working sheet metal, that any sort of shearing can apply stress to
      the metal, especially arc cutting (which is required). I ignored it,
      and I shouldn't have.

      So, perhaps due to my own inexperience, and lack of understanding
      this has been corrected. For now on, I will have all my skins laser
      cut.

      I will be getting these skins tonight, enough to hopefully do 2 sets
      of 3 cones. So in unison with new welding unit, I should see some
      good results.

      I certainly hope so.

      Other than this information, a test cone, was fabricated using the
      new welder, and it turned out quite well. The best so far,
      and "almost" achieving the goal.

      Last night, I prepared more tips and inserts for the cone. I plan on
      making more tips and inserts tonight and getting ready to start
      welding these new skins.

      Matt





    • grapidx
      Guys, You have to understand from all the failures and few successes from past 3CD builders, that this entire machine can only be successfuly constructed with
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 10, 2006
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        Guys,

        You have to understand from all the failures and few successes from
        past 3CD builders, that this entire machine can only be successfuly
        constructed with excellent balance. Afterall, many of the
        principals in this engine are based upon the seed of life model, and
        you cannot have life without balance. Any slippege, anything is off
        and you can forget about it. What did all the people say who
        couldn't get results from this like Tracey? They said they couldn't
        get the thing to balance, IE they couldn't seem to make the cones
        balance straight. Good luck getting an isotope line with lopsided
        cones. Matt is taking this to new levels and I applaud him. Not
        only is he close to creating a working device, but he is perfecting
        a thing called balance. With his skills and knowledge, this is
        something he can replicate. Props.

        -Travis



        --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "demondoppel" <mattihorn@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > ...
        >
        > I have decided to increase the precision of the cones now.
        > I am having the skins laser cut out of a stock sheet.
        > I have noticed, and this is due to my lack of understanding with
        > working sheet metal, that any sort of shearing can apply stress to
        > the metal, especially arc cutting (which is required). I ignored
        it,
        > and I shouldn't have.
        >
        > So, perhaps due to my own inexperience, and lack of understanding
        > this has been corrected. For now on, I will have all my skins
        laser
        > cut.
        >
        > I will be getting these skins tonight, enough to hopefully do 2
        sets
        > of 3 cones. So in unison with new welding unit, I should see some
        > good results.
        >
        > I certainly hope so.
        >
        > Other than this information, a test cone, was fabricated using the
        > new welder, and it turned out quite well. The best so far,
        > and "almost" achieving the goal.
        >
        > Last night, I prepared more tips and inserts for the cone. I plan
        on
        > making more tips and inserts tonight and getting ready to start
        > welding these new skins.
        >
        > Matt
        >
      • demondoppel
        Hi Dan, yes, it will make the machine work. It s hard to explain completely, but the angles must be there as well proportions. The cones, must be perfect all
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 10, 2006
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          Hi Dan,

          yes, it will make the machine work.

          It's hard to explain completely, but the angles must be there as well
          proportions. The cones, must be perfect all around and perfectly
          balanced.
          Through the techniques I have been developing this is becoming a
          reality. The welding has made the cones become much more balanced.
          I was talking to David the other night, and He was telling me about
          how he would balance the cone using rivets, by putting rivets at
          three different points or 120 degrees apart.

          I wish it could be easier, to just make the cones and make the
          machine run. I was hoping for this as well, but I kept getting
          feedback from David that they must be perfect!
          I showed David all my work, in a separate picture mailed to him. He
          knew even then, that the cones I had in the pic were not ideal.

          anyways, the angles are important for the magnet placement. The
          warping occurring at the top rim, caused the magnets to be inward a
          little more than they should be and also caused the 1/2 mark pivot
          point to raise upward. I am working towards the 'sweet 16th' air gap
          between magnets as well.

          Matt








          --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, Dan LaRochelle <danswaay@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Matt,
          >
          > Why the quest for "perfection" on the cones?
          >
          > Do you think that is what is going to make the machine work?
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Dan
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: demondoppel <mattihorn@...>
          > To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:23:31 AM
          > Subject: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status
          >
          > ...
          >
          > I have decided to increase the precision of the cones now.
          > I am having the skins laser cut out of a stock sheet.
          > I have noticed, and this is due to my lack of understanding with
          > working sheet metal, that any sort of shearing can apply stress to
          > the metal, especially arc cutting (which is required). I ignored
          it,
          > and I shouldn't have.
          >
          > So, perhaps due to my own inexperience, and lack of understanding
          > this has been corrected. For now on, I will have all my skins
          laser
          > cut.
          >
          > I will be getting these skins tonight, enough to hopefully do 2
          sets
          > of 3 cones. So in unison with new welding unit, I should see some
          > good results.
          >
          > I certainly hope so.
          >
          > Other than this information, a test cone, was fabricated using the
          > new welder, and it turned out quite well. The best so far,
          > and "almost" achieving the goal.
          >
          > Last night, I prepared more tips and inserts for the cone. I plan
          on
          > making more tips and inserts tonight and getting ready to start
          > welding these new skins.
          >
          > Matt
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Header Codes
          > 11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
          > 11112: Building and balancing, progress
          > 11113: David Hamel reports
          > 11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
          > OT: "Off Topic"
          >
          > Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
          > Subscribe: hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Unsubscribe: hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > List owner: hameltech-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > SPONSORED LINKS
          > Hamel real
          estate David
          hamel
          Hamel
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          > Visit your group "hameltech" on the web.
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          > hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
        • Jim Gogos
          exellent question Dan! concentrate on the finger pointing at the heavens and you miss the heavenly splendor. Toms machine worked and it looked like a basket
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 10, 2006
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            exellent question Dan!  concentrate on the finger pointing at the heavens and you miss the heavenly splendor.
            Toms machine worked and it looked like a basket case as though it was kicked around like a ball, actually Tom
            did kick it!
            Nature has build in Tolerance with her works.
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:50 AM
            Subject: Re: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status

            Hi Matt,

            Why the quest for "perfection" on the cones?

            Do you think that is what is going to make the machine work?

            Regards,

            Dan



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: demondoppel <mattihorn@...>
            To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:23:31 AM
            Subject: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status

            ...

            I have decided to increase the precision of the cones now.
            I am having the skins laser cut out of a stock sheet.
            I have noticed, and this is due to my lack of understanding with
            working sheet metal, that any sort of shearing can apply stress to
            the metal, especially arc cutting (which is required). I ignored it,
            and I shouldn't have.

            So, perhaps due to my own inexperience, and lack of understanding
            this has been corrected. For now on, I will have all my skins laser
            cut.

            I will be getting these skins tonight, enough to hopefully do 2 sets
            of 3 cones. So in unison with new welding unit, I should see some
            good results.

            I certainly hope so.

            Other than this information, a test cone, was fabricated using the
            new welder, and it turned out quite well. The best so far,
            and "almost" achieving the goal.

            Last night, I prepared more tips and inserts for the cone. I plan on
            making more tips and inserts tonight and getting ready to start
            welding these new skins.

            Matt





          • Dan LaRochelle
            Jim, To have fun building is great and the learning experience is well worth it, but perfect cones are not what makes this machine work. I knew someone who
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 10, 2006
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              Jim,

              To have fun building is great and the learning experience is well worth it, but perfect cones are not what makes this machine work.

              I knew someone who machined "perfect cones" out of sold aluminium blocks with no results at all.  This person's 3cd was a small prototype, but it did not even gives the results that Mr. Felton got.

              Unfortunately, the 3cd is a lot cheaper to build than the Hamel UFO motor and thus people try to build it.  Most people think the 3cd is the UFO motor which it is NOT.  Not even close.

              There is something with the magnets that should be happening and is not in this device and that is the key.  I don't know what that something is.  Who knows.....?

              Good luck.

              Regards,

              Dan LaRochelle





              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Jim Gogos <jimgogos@...>
              To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:32:55 PM
              Subject: Re: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status

              exellent question Dan!  concentrate on the finger pointing at the heavens and you miss the heavenly splendor.
              Toms machine worked and it looked like a basket case as though it was kicked around like a ball, actually Tom
              did kick it!
              Nature has build in Tolerance with her works.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status

              Hi Matt,

              Why the quest for "perfection" on the cones?

              Do you think that is what is going to make the machine work?

              Regards,

              Dan



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: demondoppel <mattihorn@...>
              To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:23:31 AM
              Subject: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status

              ...

              I have decided to increase the precision of the cones now.
              I am having the skins laser cut out of a stock sheet.
              I have noticed, and this is due to my lack of understanding with
              working sheet metal, that any sort of shearing can apply stress to
              the metal, especially arc cutting (which is required). I ignored it,
              and I shouldn't have.

              So, perhaps due to my own inexperience, and lack of understanding
              this has been corrected. For now on, I will have all my skins laser
              cut.

              I will be getting these skins tonight, enough to hopefully do 2 sets
              of 3 cones. So in unison with new welding unit, I should see some
              good results.

              I certainly hope so.

              Other than this information, a test cone, was fabricated using the
              new welder, and it turned out quite well. The best so far,
              and "almost" achieving the goal.

              Last night, I prepared more tips and inserts for the cone. I plan on
              making more tips and inserts tonight and getting ready to start
              welding these new skins.

              Matt





            • demondoppel
              all true. Anyways, I got my cones laser cut, and I have just finished the middle cone outer skin. It is alot better. More precise than ever before. On to the
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 10, 2006
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                all true.

                Anyways, I got my cones laser cut, and I have just finished the
                middle cone outer skin. It is alot better. More precise than ever
                before.

                On to the large cone.

                I haven't missed the splendor! In fact, I plan on joining the
                heavenly splendor very much once this machine is activated for the
                first time.

                The magnets, I have are good. They are strong, and the vibration is
                quick laterally. The reason I didn't jump into trying to get the
                machine to work, is that the warping plays a factor in the air gap.
                My rims are already established, and they will not be modified and
                they have the magnets on. Once the cones are where I need them, then
                the 1/16th gap will be present.

                Anyways, this high precision work is paying off. It's about the
                challenge, for me, to get this machine as accurate as possible.

                And so I continue.....

                :)

                Matt


                --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, Dan LaRochelle <danswaay@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jim,
                >
                > To have fun building is great and the learning experience is well
                worth it, but perfect cones are not what makes this machine work.
                >
                > I knew someone who machined "perfect cones" out of sold aluminium
                blocks with no results at all. This person's 3cd was a small
                prototype, but it did not even gives the results that Mr. Felton got.
                >
                > Unfortunately, the 3cd is a lot cheaper to build than the Hamel UFO
                motor and thus people try to build it. Most people think the 3cd is
                the UFO motor which it is NOT. Not even close.
                >
                > There is something with the magnets that should be happening and is
                not in this device and that is the key. I don't know what that
                something is. Who knows.....?
                >
                > Good luck.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Dan LaRochelle
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Jim Gogos <jimgogos@...>
                > To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:32:55 PM
                > Subject: Re: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status
                >
                > DIV { MARGIN: 0px } exellent question Dan! concentrate on
                the finger pointing at the heavens and you miss the heavenly
                splendor.
                > Toms machine worked and it looked like a basket case as though it
                was kicked around like a ball, actually Tom
                > did kick it!
                > Nature has build in Tolerance with her works.
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Dan LaRochelle
                > To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:50 AM
                > Subject: Re: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status
                >
                >
                > Hi Matt,
                >
                > Why the quest for "perfection" on the cones?
                >
                > Do you think that is what is going to make the machine work?
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Dan
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: demondoppel <mattihorn@...>
                > To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 9:23:31 AM
                > Subject: [hameltech] 11112: Cone status
                >
                > ...
                >
                > I have decided to increase the precision of the cones now.
                > I am having the skins laser cut out of a stock sheet.
                > I have noticed, and this is due to my lack of understanding with
                > working sheet metal, that any sort of shearing can apply stress
                to
                > the metal, especially arc cutting (which is required). I ignored
                it,
                > and I shouldn't have.
                >
                > So, perhaps due to my own inexperience, and lack of
                understanding
                > this has been corrected. For now on, I will have all my skins
                laser
                > cut.
                >
                > I will be getting these skins tonight, enough to hopefully do 2
                sets
                > of 3 cones. So in unison with new welding unit, I should see
                some
                > good results.
                >
                > I certainly hope so.
                >
                > Other than this information, a test cone, was fabricated using
                the
                > new welder, and it turned out quite well. The best so far,
                > and "almost" achieving the goal.
                >
                > Last night, I prepared more tips and inserts for the cone. I
                plan on
                > making more tips and inserts tonight and getting ready to start
                > welding these new skins.
                >
                > Matt
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Header Codes
                > 11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
                > 11112: Building and balancing, progress
                > 11113: David Hamel reports
                > 11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                > OT: "Off Topic"
                >
                > Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                > Subscribe: hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Unsubscribe: hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > List owner: hameltech-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > SPONSORED LINKS
                > Hamel real
                estate David
                hamel
                Hamel
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                > Visit your group "hameltech" on the web.
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
              • jszymanek2000
                I just wanted to comment on this cone thing. First off, I don t think you can make the device too well balance or too perfect. I also don t believe high
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 10, 2006
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                  I just wanted to comment on this cone thing. First off, I don't think
                  you can make the device too well balance or too perfect. I also don't
                  believe high precision is necessary to make it work, but it sure makes
                  life easier.

                  David has always said it has to be big to work. Build big. Now when
                  you make something bigger with hand tools, your tolerances do become
                  better. We have seen that small devices can work, but from personal
                  experience I can say it is a lot harder just to get the mechanics right.

                  In regards to solid machined cones, one has to make sure they have
                  enough lift to support the extra weight. Making the parts 'weightless'
                  is absolutely necessary to get the proper motion in the 3CD. Without
                  enough lift the vibrations are easily dampened.


                  Matt I am wondering if David commented on your geometry? It is much
                  different than anything I have ever seen in David's work or drawings.
                  I don't want to discourage experimentation, but I think it is
                  something you might think about.

                  Anyway great work, your fabrication skills are top notch.

                  Justin
                • demondoppel
                  Justin, No the geometry is fine. He is only worried that I have staged my cones as such. He says it s too dimensional, but it isn t. That is the purpose of the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 10, 2006
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                    Justin,

                    No the geometry is fine.
                    He is only worried that I have staged my cones as such. He says it's
                    too dimensional, but it isn't. That is the purpose of the machine, to
                    be dimensional. To induce change.

                    Thanks for the comments :)

                    I am just doing all the prep work for the cones right now. Smallest
                    inner is giving some problems (on my third try). All the others I
                    have welded in the last 2 hours. They look good. The laser cutting is
                    an asset and should be deployed in any fabrication I feel. The edges
                    are bang on. No defects. Nadda.

                    The tips I lathed out, seat very nicely now, since the the holes are
                    cut out perfectly.

                    Yup, you can never be too perfect. Of course, it takes much more
                    effort, but in the end it is worth it.

                    Matt

                    --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "jszymanek2000" <jszymanek2000@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I just wanted to comment on this cone thing. First off, I don't
                    think
                    > you can make the device too well balance or too perfect. I also
                    don't
                    > believe high precision is necessary to make it work, but it sure
                    makes
                    > life easier.
                    >
                    > David has always said it has to be big to work. Build big. Now when
                    > you make something bigger with hand tools, your tolerances do become
                    > better. We have seen that small devices can work, but from personal
                    > experience I can say it is a lot harder just to get the mechanics
                    right.
                    >
                    > In regards to solid machined cones, one has to make sure they have
                    > enough lift to support the extra weight. Making the
                    parts 'weightless'
                    > is absolutely necessary to get the proper motion in the 3CD. Without
                    > enough lift the vibrations are easily dampened.
                    >
                    >
                    > Matt I am wondering if David commented on your geometry? It is much
                    > different than anything I have ever seen in David's work or
                    drawings.
                    > I don't want to discourage experimentation, but I think it is
                    > something you might think about.
                    >
                    > Anyway great work, your fabrication skills are top notch.
                    >
                    > Justin
                    >
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