Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

(O.T.) Reply to Muska692 - Urgent!

Expand Messages
  • Time02112
    Been trying to reach you muska! (619) 275-1221 I have very important news, Call Me! T12 of T.A.P.-T.E.N.
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 31, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Been trying to reach you muska!
      <vosstech@...>
      (619) 275-1221
      I have very important news,
      Call Me!

      T12 of T.A.P.-T.E.N.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tapten

      --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, Muska692@a... wrote:
      > Heres the link to Mr. Bryan St. Clair's website:
      > http://www.geocities.com/stclairtech/
      >
      > We should remeber to give recognition once in a while to those that
      helped
      > get the words and designs of Mr. Hamel out. Also to those who
      contribute their
      > time to answer the questions of new comers and share their building
      > experiences. Because without them, we would have never found out
      about this great
      > technology. This group has come a long way and we all learn a lot
      from their efforts
      > : )
      >
      > Ole Thor, Justin S, Brian St. Clair, Tom, Tracy, Dave K, Jon M, Dan
      Rochelle,
      > Chris Felton, Steve T, Steven D also the World Famous guys. Not to
      mention
      > the big guy, Mr. David Hamel. Sorry to the dozens I forgot. All you
      guys are a
      > huge inspiration to me, and anywhere this group go's is because of
      your
      > pioneering spirits. Even if you dont have working machine, you make
      a huge
      > difference. Great Job.
      >
      > Our world just isn't ready yet.
      > Matthew Martin (Muska692@a...)
    • h_rap_pringle
      ... stclairtech website shows a .004 MICROFARAD cap as a .004 PICOFARAD cap. That only a mistake of a million fold. I m sure mr St Clair wouold be happy to
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 10, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, Muska692@a... wrote:
        > Heres the link to Mr. Bryan St. Clair's website:
        > http://www.geocities.com/stclairtech/
        >
        stclairtech website shows a .004 MICROFARAD cap as a .004 PICOFARAD
        cap. That only a mistake of a million fold. I'm sure mr St Clair
        wouold be happy to knpow about this. What he is measuring is the
        TEMPERATURE coefficient of capacitance of a cheap ceramic cap.

        Rap
      • Bryan St.Clair
        Hi All, I ve been too busy lately to be very active in the group, but i figured that I had better reply to this. The capacitor is a .004 PICOFARAD, NOT .004
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 11, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi All,

          I've been too busy lately to be very active in the
          group, but i figured that I had better reply to this.
          The capacitor is a .004 PICOFARAD, NOT .004
          microfarad. It can be subsituted by a vacuum tube
          using the heater plates as the cap, or with a twisted
          pair of wires a couple of inches long. The measurement
          has nothing to do with the temperature, & this circuit
          can be proven easily.
          Feel free to try it for yourselves, it's cheap enough
          to make!

          =====
          Bryan St.Clair
          http://www.geocities.com/stclairtech/
          http://www.geocities.com/stclairstore/



          _______________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping.
          http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool
        • h_rap_pringle
          ... There are no .004 picofarad capacitors in Digikey. The Plates of an old tube have much greater than .004 picofarad capacitance. I suggest that you
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 11, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan St.Clair" <stclairtech@y...>
            wrote:
            > Hi All,
            >
            > I've been too busy lately to be very active in the
            > group, but i figured that I had better reply to this.
            > The capacitor is a .004 PICOFARAD, NOT .004
            > microfarad.

            There are no .004 picofarad capacitors in Digikey. The Plates of an
            old tube have much greater than .004 picofarad capacitance. I suggest
            that you reaquaint yourself with capacitors. Go do the search yourself at

            http://www.digikey.com

            As I said you are off by a factor of 1 million.

            Rap

            PS: Some calculations.
            C = eo A / d

            eo, the permittivity of free space, is a constant equal to 8.85 x
            10 -12 F/m,
            A is the cross sectional area of ONE plate, and
            d is the distance between the plates.


            Substituting c= 1pf d= 1mm

            A=C * D/eo = 1 cm^2 for 1 pf

            .004 pf would be .02 cm^2 or microscopic in size.

            Your Gimmick capacitor made from two wires wrapped together has a
            typical capacitance of you can make a gimmick capacitor by twisting a
            piece of wire connected to the set around the bitter end of the
            antenna. I did it another way, using some 18 gage twin lead wire;
            turned out that the capacitance of the twin lead was about 1.2 pF per
            inch. That would make .004 pf .006 inch of twinlead.
          • Bryan St.Clair
            I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue this with you. The cap that I am useing has no markings any more, but .004pf is what it measures at with 3
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 14, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue
              this with you. The cap that I am useing has no
              markings any more, but .004pf is what it measures at
              with 3 differant cap testers.
              Lets leave it that the capacitance needs to be as
              little as possible.
              Now, Move on.

              =====
              Bryan St.Clair
              http://www.geocities.com/stclairtech/
              http://www.geocities.com/stclairstore/

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • h_rap_pringle
              ... There is no cap meter made that can go that low. You read it wrong or it was defective. As I showed you in calculations how microscopic a .004pf cap would
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 14, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan St.Clair" <stclairtech@y...>
                wrote:
                > I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue
                > this with you. The cap that I am useing has no
                > markings any more, but .004pf is what it measures at
                > with 3 differant cap testers.
                > Lets leave it that the capacitance needs to be as
                > little as possible.
                > Now, Move on.
                >

                There is no cap meter made that can go that low.
                You read it wrong or it was defective.

                As I showed you in calculations how microscopic a .004pf cap would be.
                I see no reason why don't accept that determination.

                I also said Digikey does not sell any caps that low. Go look for
                yourself. You might be confusing it with a .004 MICROFARAD cap which
                would work.

                At the frequencies you are using a .004 pf cap would not pass enough
                current to be measured. The impedance of a cap is 1/ 2 pi f C

                that would be 1/(2 * 3.14 * 180 * 4 x 10^-15) = 1/(4.524 * 10 ^ -12)

                given that you are supplying less than 5 volts to the cap that means
                about 1 picoamp current. To measure those types of current require
                special circuits with boxcar noise reduction. You could not afford
                them on an NE555 budget.

                Rap

                PS I am trying to be sincere with you, not rip you down. A dose of
                reality never hurts.
              • Mike
                Hi Rap, Usually just an observer in this group, but recent posts on this issue just cry our for some sense! for those of you who do not know, the formula for
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 15, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Rap,
                          Usually 'just an observer' in this group, but recent posts on this issue just cry our for some sense! for those of you who do not know, the formula for capacitance is:-
                   
                  C = Ko.Kr. A /D (N - 1)   Ko is the permittivity of free space which is 8.85x10^ -12 farads / metre; Kr is the relative permeability of the dielectric (usually in the range 1 - 10 if there is a dielectric), A is area in sq metres, D is distance apart, again in metres. N is number of plates, & -1 signifies that the 'outside plate in a stack has two sides that do nothing.
                   
                  Simplifying for an example, two parallel 1mm diameter wires in air, each 10 mm long (1/2 inch approx), & seperated by 5mm (1/4 inch approx). Ko permittivity of 'free space only, & only two 'plates', so ignore 'N -1'
                   
                  The answer is 1.77x10^ - 14 farads or .017pf, which is more or less 4 times larger than the 'supposed' capacitance of .004pf.
                   
                  Conclusion therefore is, that if you have a very expensive capacitance bridge, already compensated for any lead lengths, then you are measuring the lead capacitance of the 'device under test'.
                   
                  I personally know of no such instrument with this sensitivity, which has no value in the real world!
                   
                  Would it perhaps be impertinent to suggest that either you have a 'broken' capacitor, or are perhaps reading your instrument incorrectly?
                   
                  Mike.
                   
                  Mike. J. Furness.
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: h_rap_pringle [mailto:h_rap_pringle@...]
                  Sent: 15 September 2004 05:08
                  To: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [hameltech] Re: Mr. Bryan St. Clair's website

                  --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan St.Clair" <stclairtech@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >  I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue
                  > this with you. The cap that I am useing has no
                  > markings any more, but .004pf is what it measures at
                  > with 3 differant cap testers.
                  >  Lets leave it that the capacitance needs to be as
                  > little as possible.
                  >  Now, Move on.
                  >

                  There is no cap meter made that can go that low.
                  You read it wrong or it was defective.

                  As I showed you in calculations how microscopic a .004pf cap would be.
                  I see no reason why don't accept that determination.

                  I also said Digikey does not sell any caps that low. Go look for
                  yourself. You might be confusing it with a .004 MICROFARAD cap which
                  would work.

                  At the frequencies you are using a .004 pf cap would not pass enough
                  current to be measured.  The impedance of a cap is 1/ 2 pi f C

                  that would be 1/(2 * 3.14 * 180 * 4 x 10^-15) = 1/(4.524 * 10 ^ -12)

                  given that you are supplying less than 5 volts to the cap that means
                  about 1 picoamp current. To measure those types of current require
                  special circuits with boxcar noise reduction. You could not afford
                  them  on an NE555 budget.

                  Rap

                  PS I am trying to be sincere with you, not rip you down. A dose of
                  reality never hurts.









                  Header Codes
                  11111: Theory, untested Hamel ideas
                  11112: Building and balancing, progress
                  11113: David Hamel reports
                  11114: Non-hamel mysteries and energies
                  OT: "Off Topic"

                  Post message: hameltech@yahoogroups.com
                  Subscribe:  hameltech-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  Unsubscribe:  hameltech-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  List owner:  hameltech-owner@yahoogroups.com



                • draco_reptoid
                  ... on this ... is area ... plates, ... each 10 ... 4 times ... measuring the ... has no ... broken ... What would Mr Hamel say about this? Draco
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 15, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In hameltech@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikefurness2002@y...> wrote:
                    > Hi Rap,
                    > Usually 'just an observer' in this group, but recent posts
                    on this
                    > issue just cry our for some sense! for those of you who do not know, the
                    > formula for capacitance is:-
                    >
                    > C = Ko.Kr. A /D (N - 1) Ko is the permittivity of free space which is
                    > 8.85x10^ -12 farads / metre; Kr is the relative permeability of the
                    > dielectric (usually in the range 1 - 10 if there is a dielectric), A
                    is area
                    > in sq metres, D is distance apart, again in metres. N is number of
                    plates,
                    > & -1 signifies that the 'outside plate in a stack has two sides that do
                    > nothing.
                    >
                    > Simplifying for an example, two parallel 1mm diameter wires in air,
                    each 10
                    > mm long (1/2 inch approx), & seperated by 5mm (1/4 inch approx). Ko
                    > permittivity of 'free space only, & only two 'plates', so ignore 'N -1'
                    >
                    > The answer is 1.77x10^ - 14 farads or .017pf, which is more or less
                    4 times
                    > larger than the 'supposed' capacitance of .004pf.
                    >
                    > Conclusion therefore is, that if you have a very expensive capacitance
                    > bridge, already compensated for any lead lengths, then you are
                    measuring the
                    > lead capacitance of the 'device under test'.
                    >
                    > I personally know of no such instrument with this sensitivity, which
                    has no
                    > value in the real world!
                    >
                    > Would it perhaps be impertinent to suggest that either you have a
                    'broken'
                    > capacitor, or are perhaps reading your instrument incorrectly?
                    >
                    > Mike.
                    >
                    > Mike. J. Furness.


                    What would Mr Hamel say about this?

                    Draco
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.