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Re: [hackers-il] English Speakers in Israel According to the Wikipedia

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  • Ori Idan
    The question is how do we define English speaker. If English speaker is defined as someone whose main language is English, maybe Wikipedia is right, although I
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 15, 2008
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      The question is how do we define English speaker.
      If English speaker is defined as someone whose main language is English, maybe Wikipedia is right, although I also find it strange that the number is so low.

      --
      Ori Idan


      On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:

      Hi all!

      According to:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population

      Israel has a total of 100,000 English speakers. That makes little sense to me
      as:

      1. Israeli pupils receive at least 8 years of English education before
      university.

      2. Most Israelis I know (or heard of) have a working knowledge of English.
      Even cab drivers and kiosk salesmen tend to have usable English.

      3. Israel is famous for the good knowledge of English of its inhabitants.

      4. There are more University graduates who have acquired English in their
      studies than that.

      ----------

      Looking at the chart it seems this number is equal to the number of *native*
      English speakers and there is no number for speakers as an additional
      language. So this is misleading.

      Does anyone have any idea about how to correct this?

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish

      ----------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
      Understand what Open Source is - http://xrl.us/bjn82

      Shlomi, so what are you working on? Working on a new wiki about unit testing
      fortunes in freecell? -- Ran Eilam




      --
      ספרים וסיפורים שכתבתי: http://www.thestories.org
    • Shlomi Fish
      ... No, it s not. Reading from the first paragraph: {{{{{{{ This is a list of countries of the world sorted by the total English-speaking population in that
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 15, 2008
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        On Monday 15 September 2008, Ori Idan wrote:
        > The question is how do we define English speaker.
        > If English speaker is defined as someone whose main language is English,
        > maybe Wikipedia is right, although I also find it strange that the number
        > is so low.

        No, it's not. Reading from the first paragraph:

        {{{{{{{
        This is a list of countries of the world sorted by the total English-speaking
        population in that country. This includes both native speakers and second
        language speakers of English. Statistics on second language speakers are
        usually imprecise, in part because there is no widely agreed definition of
        second language speakers, so these figures should be treated with caution.
        }}}}}}}

        And the table has several columns:

        * Total English Speakers

        * As First Language

        * As an Additional Language

        So it doesn't matter what is the language you use the most everyday, as long
        as you know English - you're counted in. So Wikipedia is wrong in the figures
        for Israel.

        Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

        >
        > --
        > Ori Idan
        >
        > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
        > > Hi all!
        > >
        > > According to:
        > >
        > >
        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_popula
        > >tion
        > >
        > > Israel has a total of 100,000 English speakers. That makes little sense
        > > to me
        > > as:
        > >
        > > 1. Israeli pupils receive at least 8 years of English education before
        > > university.
        > >
        > > 2. Most Israelis I know (or heard of) have a working knowledge of
        > > English. Even cab drivers and kiosk salesmen tend to have usable English.
        > >
        > > 3. Israel is famous for the good knowledge of English of its inhabitants.
        > >
        > > 4. There are more University graduates who have acquired English in their
        > > studies than that.
        > >
        > > ----------
        > >
        > > Looking at the chart it seems this number is equal to the number of
        > > *native*
        > > English speakers and there is no number for speakers as an additional
        > > language. So this is misleading.
        > >
        > > Does anyone have any idea about how to correct this?
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Shlomi Fish
        > >
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > > Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
        > > Understand what Open Source is - http://xrl.us/bjn82
        > >
        > > Shlomi, so what are you working on? Working on a new wiki about unit
        > > testing
        > > fortunes in freecell? -- Ran Eilam



        --
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
        My Aphorisms - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour.html

        Shlomi, so what are you working on? Working on a new wiki about unit testing
        fortunes in freecell? -- Ran Eilam
      • Ori Idan
        It really seems to be wrong. The question is can we find a figure that seems more logical so we can edit it? -- Ori Idan ... -- ספרים וסיפורים
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 15, 2008
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          It really seems to be wrong.
          The question is can we find a figure that seems more logical so we can edit it?

          --
          Ori Idan


          On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
          On Monday 15 September 2008, Ori Idan wrote:
          > The question is how do we define English speaker.
          > If English speaker is defined as someone whose main language is English,
          > maybe Wikipedia is right, although I also find it strange that the number
          > is so low.

          No, it's not. Reading from the first paragraph:

          {{{{{{{
          This is a list of countries of the world sorted by the total English-speaking
          population in that country. This includes both native speakers and second
          language speakers of English. Statistics on second language speakers are
          usually imprecise, in part because there is no widely agreed definition of
          second language speakers, so these figures should be treated with caution.
          }}}}}}}

          And the table has several columns:

          * Total English Speakers

          * As First Language

          * As an Additional Language

          So it doesn't matter what is the language you use the most everyday, as long
          as you know English - you're counted in. So Wikipedia is wrong in the figures
          for Israel.

          Regards,

                 Shlomi Fish

          >
          > --
          > Ori Idan
          >
          > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
          > >   Hi all!
          > >
          > > According to:
          > >
          > >
          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_popula
          > >tion
          > >
          > > Israel has a total of 100,000 English speakers. That makes little sense
          > > to me
          > > as:
          > >
          > > 1. Israeli pupils receive at least 8 years of English education before
          > > university.
          > >
          > > 2. Most Israelis I know (or heard of) have a working knowledge of
          > > English. Even cab drivers and kiosk salesmen tend to have usable English.
          > >
          > > 3. Israel is famous for the good knowledge of English of its inhabitants.
          > >
          > > 4. There are more University graduates who have acquired English in their
          > > studies than that.
          > >
          > > ----------
          > >
          > > Looking at the chart it seems this number is equal to the number of
          > > *native*
          > > English speakers and there is no number for speakers as an additional
          > > language. So this is misleading.
          > >
          > > Does anyone have any idea about how to correct this?
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > Shlomi Fish
          > >
          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > > Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
          > > Understand what Open Source is - http://xrl.us/bjn82
          > >
          > > Shlomi, so what are you working on? Working on a new wiki about unit
          > > testing
          > > fortunes in freecell? -- Ran Eilam



          --
          -----------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
          My Aphorisms - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour.html

          Shlomi, so what are you working on? Working on a new wiki about unit testing
          fortunes in freecell? -- Ran Eilam

          ------------------------------------

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          ספרים וסיפורים שכתבתי: http://www.thestories.org
        • Nadav Har'El
          ... The heading paragraph clearly says that this number should include both native speakers and second language speakers of English. . So the figure 100,000
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 21, 2008
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            On Mon, Sep 15, 2008, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] English Speakers in Israel According to the Wikipedia":
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
            > Israel has a total of 100,000 English speakers. That makes little sense to me
            > as:
            >..
            > Looking at the chart it seems this number is equal to the number of *native*
            > English speakers and there is no number for speakers as an additional
            > language. So this is misleading.

            The heading paragraph clearly says that this number should "include both
            native speakers and second language speakers of English.". So the figure
            "100,000" for Israel is simply wrong, and needs to be fixed: Israel needs
            to have its "As an additional language" figure filled in, and then this figure
            needs to be added to the "Total English Speakers" figure.

            So, be bold, look for a source, and update this page!

            Of course, there's always the question of what does being a "speaker of
            English" (even as second language) mean. There's a huge variance in the
            Israeli public, from people with almost native English, to people who can
            even translate "aftershave" to English ;-) Even if all of them studied 8
            years of English at school.

            --
            Nadav Har'El | Monday, Sep 22 2008, 22 Elul 5768
            nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
            Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Cat rule #2: Bite the hand that won't
            http://nadav.harel.org.il |feed you fast enough.
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