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Religious Wars (was: Re: [hackers-il] KDevelop vs. Eclipse vs. Emacs)

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  • Omer Zak
    This is off-topic to the topic which I raised, and to which people answered only by replying to someone else, who had different issues. However, the topic of
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 2, 2007
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      This is off-topic to the topic which I raised, and to which people
      answered only by replying to someone else, who had different issues.

      However, the topic of religious (or holy) wars in this context is an
      interesting topic to explore at its own right, so I'm accepting the
      challenge.

      It seems to me that religious wars are about choice between two (or
      more) approaches, which are more or less equivalent - but require some
      time investment to switch from one to the other.

      The famous example of vi vs. emacs religious war illustrates this point.
      Both editors are powerful text editors, and both have some sort of
      scripting capabilities. However, to switch from one to the other
      requires some time investment - to learn the other editor, to cultivate
      different mental habits, to re-create one's personal list of scripts,
      tips, riffs and shortcuts.

      However, people typically do not defend their editor choices by invoking
      the expense of conversion to the other editor. They prefer to invent
      all kinds of arguments to justify their original editor choice, made 10
      years ago.

      --- Omer

      On Sun, 2007-09-02 at 08:43 -0700, Omer Shapira wrote:
      > Is this a holy war?
      >
      > On 8/26/07, Omer Zak <w1@...> wrote:
      > Currently I use emacs and makefiles to develop code in
      > projects, which
      > use C++, Python and PHP.
      > I am considering whether to switch to a "true" IDE, such as
      > KDevelop or
      > Eclipse.
      >
      > What is the community's opinion about IDEs?
      > Any other Free Software IDEs I overlooked?
      > Which IDE is, in your opinion, better and for which
      > language/s?

      --
      My Commodore 64 is suffering from slowness and insufficiency of memory;
      and its display device is grievously short of pixels. Can anyone help?
      My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

      My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
      They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
      I may be affiliated in any way.
      WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
    • Nadav Har'El
      ... I don t fully agree. Such wars indeed exist, but are faught mainly by trolls, who, for example, pop up on a Linux list and start debating whether you
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 5, 2007
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        On Sun, Sep 02, 2007, Omer Zak wrote about "Religious Wars (was: Re: [hackers-il] KDevelop vs. Eclipse vs.?Emacs)":
        >..
        > However, the topic of religious (or holy) wars in this context is an
        > interesting topic to explore at its own right, so I'm accepting the
        > challenge.
        >
        > It seems to me that religious wars are about choice between two (or
        > more) approaches, which are more or less equivalent - but require some
        > time investment to switch from one to the other.

        I don't fully agree. Such "wars" indeed exist, but are faught mainly by
        trolls, who, for example, pop up on a Linux list and start debating whether
        you should use Fedora, Debian or Ubuntu, when everyone knows that these are
        basically permutations of more-or-less the same features, and if choice X
        has some feature not in choice Y, then the next version of choice Y will surely
        have it, and some new feature that X doesn't have.

        The wars become more interesting, and more "religious", when the choices
        are not equivalent, and both sides acklowedge specific differences between
        the two choices - they just can't agree if the difference is good, or bad.

        In real religions, for example, everyone agrees that a major difference between
        Judaism and Christianity is Jesus Christ - it's just that Christians think
        this is a *good* thing in christianity, and Jews think it's a *bad* thing.
        Similarly, in software,

        > The famous example of vi vs. emacs religious war illustrates this point.
        > Both editors are powerful text editors, and both have some sort of
        > scripting capabilities. However, to switch from one to the other

        Actually, the VI/Emacs religious war broke out and continued when there was
        a real difference between those editor's philosophy. Emacs indeed had powerful
        scripting capabilities, but vi had none (it had a simple configuration file,
        ~/.exrc, but you couldn't call that scripting by a longshot). Emacs' camp
        thought this made Emacs obviously better, while vi's camp disagreed and
        ridiculed Emacs' scripting (saying things like "Emacs is a great operating
        system, but it's missing a good editor). A second "religious" argument
        between the vi and emacs camps was the style of keyboard binding. The vi
        camp believed in "modal" binding (you have insert mode, and command mode)
        and in combinations of single-key commands, while the emacs camp believed
        in global binding (a key does the same thing everywhere) and key combinations
        (liek control-alt-a). Each camp thought the other's method sucks.

        Of course, these VI/Emacs wars are a thing of the 80s. Today, both XEmacs
        and Vim have GUIs and scripting languages, and the differences between the
        two editors are indeed starting to look cosmetic, rather than fundumental.
        Both editors are starting to look like operating systems, rather than
        editors ;-)


        > requires some time investment - to learn the other editor, to cultivate
        > different mental habits, to re-create one's personal list of scripts,
        > tips, riffs and shortcuts.

        This doesn't explain the "holy war" aspect. If I have a lot of scripts and
        knowledge about program X, why would that automatically send me to mailing
        lists and write that Y sucks?

        I think that I would write that Y sucks, only when I believe Y really sucks,
        i.e., not only am I used to X, but there are significant differences between
        X and Y which - at least to me - don't look like something consmetic or
        "what I'm used to", but rather very important differences.

        For example, as you probably know, I use zsh. I settled on zsh as my favorite
        shell around 15 years ago - after having previously used ksh and bourne shell.
        While Zsh is my favorite shell, I have nothing really bad to say about Bash.
        It doesn't suck - it's probably great, just isn't as great as zsh ;-) So you
        won't catch me slandering bash in mailing lists and joining crusades against
        it. On the other hand, I do think that csh sucks, and can explain my reasoning.
        I *will* join any crusade against csh that you invite me to... Because I
        believe that csh is really inferior to zsh (and bash) - it's not just a
        historic choice - and I don't want newbies to fall into the trap of learning
        it.

        --
        Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, Sep 5 2007, 22 Elul 5767
        nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
        Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The path of least resistance is what
        http://nadav.harel.org.il |makes rivers and politicians crooked.
      • Omer Shapira
        a trap of learning . Touche. ... -- Sincerely Yours, Omer Shapira
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 5, 2007
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          "a trap of learning". Touche.

          On 9/5/07, Nadav Har'El <nyh@...> wrote:

          On Sun, Sep 02, 2007, Omer Zak wrote about "Religious Wars (was: Re: [hackers-il] KDevelop vs. Eclipse vs.?Emacs)":
          >..
          > However, the topic of religious (or holy) wars in this context is an
          > interesting topic to explore at its own right, so I'm accepting the
          > challenge.
          >
          > It seems to me that religious wars are about choice between two (or
          > more) approaches, which are more or less equivalent - but require some
          > time investment to switch from one to the other.

          I don't fully agree. Such "wars" indeed exist, but are faught mainly by
          trolls, who, for example, pop up on a Linux list and start debating whether
          you should use Fedora, Debian or Ubuntu, when everyone knows that these are
          basically permutations of more-or-less the same features, and if choice X
          has some feature not in choice Y, then the next version of choice Y will surely
          have it, and some new feature that X doesn't have.

          The wars become more interesting, and more "religious", when the choices
          are not equivalent, and both sides acklowedge specific differences between
          the two choices - they just can't agree if the difference is good, or bad.

          In real religions, for example, everyone agrees that a major difference between
          Judaism and Christianity is Jesus Christ - it's just that Christians think
          this is a *good* thing in christianity, and Jews think it's a *bad* thing.
          Similarly, in software,

          > The famous example of vi vs. emacs religious war illustrates this point.
          > Both editors are powerful text editors, and both have some sort of
          > scripting capabilities. However, to switch from one to the other

          Actually, the VI/Emacs religious war broke out and continued when there was
          a real difference between those editor's philosophy. Emacs indeed had powerful
          scripting capabilities, but vi had none (it had a simple configuration file,
          ~/.exrc, but you couldn't call that scripting by a longshot). Emacs' camp
          thought this made Emacs obviously better, while vi's camp disagreed and
          ridiculed Emacs' scripting (saying things like "Emacs is a great operating
          system, but it's missing a good editor). A second "religious" argument
          between the vi and emacs camps was the style of keyboard binding. The vi
          camp believed in "modal" binding (you have insert mode, and command mode)
          and in combinations of single-key commands, while the emacs camp believed
          in global binding (a key does the same thing everywhere) and key combinations
          (liek control-alt-a). Each camp thought the other's method sucks.

          Of course, these VI/Emacs wars are a thing of the 80s. Today, both XEmacs
          and Vim have GUIs and scripting languages, and the differences between the
          two editors are indeed starting to look cosmetic, rather than fundumental.
          Both editors are starting to look like operating systems, rather than
          editors ;-)

          > requires some time investment - to learn the other editor, to cultivate
          > different mental habits, to re-create one's personal list of scripts,
          > tips, riffs and shortcuts.

          This doesn't explain the "holy war" aspect. If I have a lot of scripts and
          knowledge about program X, why would that automatically send me to mailing
          lists and write that Y sucks?

          I think that I would write that Y sucks, only when I believe Y really sucks,
          i.e., not only am I used to X, but there are significant differences between
          X and Y which - at least to me - don't look like something consmetic or
          "what I'm used to", but rather very important differences.

          For example, as you probably know, I use zsh. I settled on zsh as my favorite
          shell around 15 years ago - after having previously used ksh and bourne shell.
          While Zsh is my favorite shell, I have nothing really bad to say about Bash.
          It doesn't suck - it's probably great, just isn't as great as zsh ;-) So you
          won't catch me slandering bash in mailing lists and joining crusades against
          it. On the other hand, I do think that csh sucks, and can explain my reasoning.
          I *will* join any crusade against csh that you invite me to... Because I
          believe that csh is really inferior to zsh (and bash) - it's not just a
          historic choice - and I don't want newbies to fall into the trap of learning
          it.

          --
          Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, Sep 5 2007, 22 Elul 5767
          nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
          Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The path of least resistance is what
          http://nadav.harel.org.il |makes rivers and politicians crooked.




          --
          Sincerely Yours,
          Omer Shapira
        • Omer Shapira
          A true religious war - and this is my humble opinion - requires common use cases, yet different postulates. In addition, some decent amount of people wishing
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 5, 2007
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            A true religious war - and this is my humble opinion - requires common use cases, yet different postulates. In addition, some decent amount of people wishing to invest their time and efforts into the war must be present - otherwise, the war will fall into oblivion.

            Qualities, that person willing to succeed in the religious war should pertain, in my humble^W arrogant (a la guerre comme a la guerre) opinion, are mental rigidity and unwillingness to separate between the cause, the aims and the means.

            As one vague familiar with dialectics of materialism, I prefer to remain atheist in all what is related to tools and means, yet I do have one sound opinion:

                    Mediocre software may be profitable, but it is boring and ultimately bad for the developers.

            And if we will return to the original question, from which this current thread was forked, let me say that both vim and GNU Emacs had been polished into state which is very close to the perfection, yet KDevelop and XEmacs still have some way to go up the path of perpetual self-improvement.

            --
            Sincerely Yours,
            Omer Shapira
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