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Re: [hackers-il] Re: Objectivity

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  • Shlomi Fish
    ... Prove it! ;-) ... OK. ... I do accept the Peano axioms (which I m well aware of) on faith . However, they seem to make sense , and using them one has
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 28 2:42 AM
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      On Saturday 21 April 2007, Arik Baratz wrote:
      > > > Oh. So you totally deny the value of a formed opinion.
      > >
      > > I do not.
      >
      > In my opinion you do :-)
      >

      Prove it! ;-)

      > > > I guess you
      > > > don't have a favorite color or a favorite dish either, because you're
      > > > unable to prove that Sushi is better.
      > >
      > > I do. But such opinions are ammoral. Whether I prefer blondes or
      > > brunettes (or both) or Perl or Python (or both), or prefer chocolate
      > > icecream or vanilla icecream etc. is not a matter of Ethics. This is a
      > > matter of taste, which varries according to many factors, and is useless
      > > to argue about.
      >
      > Exactly
      >

      OK.

      > > However, if someone thinks that 2 + 2 = 5 (i.e: [**] + [**] = [*****]),
      > > then this opinion is illogical. It can be proven to be incorrect. He is
      > > entitled to his opinion, but everyone can tell it's a lie.
      >
      > Can't argue with you on your math exercise. Just remember that what
      > you take for granted (2+2=4) is based on a set of axioms [1], which
      > you accept on faith.

      I do accept the Peano axioms (which I'm well aware of) on "faith". However,
      they seem to "make sense", and using them one has proven the rest of
      arithmetics and number theory in a consistent fashion, and with no
      contradictions so far. So I can accept them not based on "faith" but based on
      intuition, proof-by-induction and practical science.

      As you know it's impossible to prove that all objects on planet earth, without
      intervention will try to go down. However, this is known to be the case by
      induction from many experiments, and from general practice. So we can assume
      it is the case.

      >
      > > Likewise, Randians believe that Ethics is a matter of logic and very
      > > basic facts of existence like the biological nature of men and women.
      >
      > In that case I guess I am not a Randian, because I believe that ethics
      > are derived from moral values and these have no logical basis, are not
      > uniform across our society, other societies and along time. Actually
      > that's not entirely true - there is some logic to moral values -
      > having moral values enables our existence as a society.
      >

      OK.

      As you know, one can think of several different systems of ethics. And in a
      way, we can expect that they would vary in time as technology, economy and
      philosophy progresses. However, as you know, sometimes people can poke large
      holes within ethical systems, showing them to violate more basic, commonly
      accepted assumptions (as I have shown for some of the Ethics proposed by Kant
      and Kierkegaard). As such they can be rejected as false.

      While I don't know the precise reasoning, Ayn Rand and later on Neo-Tech have
      claimed to derive a set of absolute ethics using logic and very basic
      assumptions. And I should note that what Neo-Tech says seems to "make a lot
      of sense" to me, and I have concluded that it is a good and fully-integrated
      system of ethics and a proper model of existence.

      > > > I think that definition sucks. I don't accept it. In my reality
      > >
      > > In your reality? Arik, in my reality, I didn't receive this message of
      > > yours and didn't reply. Sorry, but we share the same reality. Or else
      > > interaction between us would be impossible.
      >
      > It's not either-or. Our realities overlap enough so we can converse in
      > the same language. It does not overlap enough to agree on questions of
      > the absoluteness of morality, so it seems.

      The phyiscal world in which we live in is completely shared between us. (I
      hope you agree to that). However, each of us have his own knowledge,
      opinions, thoughts, mental baggage, etc. Some people believe Mao was a heroic
      figure, but you and I both know he was a mass-murderer. (Which a grown-up
      Chinese programmer I talked with, didn't know that is the case, because he
      was never told that). While the facts still stand, everyone has a different
      conception of reality. However, his conception of reality is not reality
      itself, but a mere conception. (All of this avoiding some technicalities as
      the fact that our mind is made of atoms, etc.)

      >
      > > > invalid. You are entitled to your own opinion. Saying that I am not
      > > > entitled to one dismisses me in an offensive manner.
      > >
      > > Where did I say that you're not entitled to your own opinion? You are of
      > > course. You are also entitled to think that 2+2=5, or that A = NOT(A) but
      > > don't try to base a mathematical proof on it or mathematicians will laugh
      > > at your face.
      >
      > When did I ever try to prove it? Perhaps I made arguments but not all
      > arguments are based in logics.
      >
      > > You have made a claim. You didn't prove this claim. Since it is without a
      > > proof, and I have some counter-evidence (see my message to Nadav), I can
      > > assume that this claim is false until I am given some evidence to prove
      > > it. I can say such claims as "Perl does not scale to large codebases",
      > > "All Arabs are evil", "Drugs be illegal", etc. but until I prove them,
      > > they will remain as unproven. If you think otherwise, then you might as
      > > well say that "Foreach A, A is true and NOT(A) is true", and become
      > > all-knowing and get done with it.
      >
      > No. I simply deny your ability to arbitrate moral rules with logic.
      >

      OK. Well, I don't. If someone tells me "I think it should be OK to kill
      people", then I could tell him "Fine, would you like it if I kill you?"
      or "If I see you're killing too many people, then I'll kill you so you won't
      end up killing me.". Thus, we're eliminating some falsified ethical rules
      using logic.

      > > Don't take it personally, you are entitled to think what you want, but
      > > I'm also entitled to expect you to prove such claims. I won't accept any
      > > claim without a good evidence, reasoning or proof. Unless, of course
      > > claims like "I like Mint-flavoured Ice Cream the best", which are
      > > ammoral, and a matter of taste.
      >
      > You are not entitled to expect me to prove it. I do not agree with you
      > on your premise that it is either provable or disprovable.
      >

      What isn't provable or disprovable? Trying to guess: if someone makes a claim
      that seems objective (rather than "I think..." or "I like...", etc.) then
      either it is true, false, or cannot be demonstrated to be either true or
      false. And it would be anti-intellectual to think this claim is meaningful
      without demonstrating that it is indeed so.

      Like I said, when someone makes an assertion, the burden-of-proof is on him.

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish

      > -- Arik
      >
      > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number#Peano_axioms



      --

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

      If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
      one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
      -- An Israeli Linuxer
    • Arik Baratz
      ... That make sense thing is where your subjective belief system comes into play. ... Well, one could construct a consistent system with different axioms and
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 28 3:58 AM
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        On 4/28/07, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:

        > I do accept the Peano axioms (which I'm well aware of) on "faith". However,
        > they seem to "make sense", and using them one has proven the rest of

        That "make sense" thing is where your subjective belief system comes into play.

        > arithmetics and number theory in a consistent fashion, and with no
        > contradictions so far. So I can accept them not based on "faith" but based on
        > intuition, proof-by-induction and practical science.

        Well, one could construct a consistent system with different axioms
        and still be practical. When you say "based on intuition" you're
        actually saying 'based on what I *feel* or *believe* should be true
        and correct'.

        > As you know it's impossible to prove that all objects on planet earth, without
        > intervention will try to go down. However, this is known to be the case by
        > induction from many experiments, and from general practice. So we can assume
        > it is the case.

        This is not math, this is physics. As you well know our physics is
        based on empiric study of the world. There is a theory that there
        exists a force called gravity, it's pulling objects towards each
        other, and the force is equal to G(M1xM2)/r^2. This formula was
        derived empirically from (I think) the Kepler observations, and G was
        defined to fit the observations.

        There is no induction here. Induction is proof. What you have is
        inference. You see two apples falling towards the ground and you
        DEDUCE that the third apple will too. Contrary to popular belief,
        these theories cannot be proven, they can only be very well
        experimented with or disproven. You can say that from the many
        experiments done in this field you infer that there is a force F=mg
        pulling your object towards the ground. You cannot prove it by
        induction. Let's try and see where that fails:

        n=0 - let's drop apple#0... okay it fell with the predicted speed in vaccum.
        n=1 - let's drop apple#1... okay it fell much the same way
        but wait these experiments are unrelated, maybe experiment 1234 won't
        work the same. Induction requires that you will be able to say
        something about i-1 but when each experiment is independent you
        cannot.

        > As you know, one can think of several different systems of ethics. And in a
        > way, we can expect that they would vary in time as technology, economy and
        > philosophy progresses. However, as you know, sometimes people can poke large
        > holes within ethical systems, showing them to violate more basic, commonly
        > accepted assumptions (as I have shown for some of the Ethics proposed by Kant
        > and Kierkegaard). As such they can be rejected as false.

        Again you take something subjective like ethics and judge it
        pseudo-objectively (rejected as false)

        > While I don't know the precise reasoning, Ayn Rand and later on Neo-Tech have
        > claimed to derive a set of absolute ethics using logic and very basic
        > assumptions. And I should note that what Neo-Tech says seems to "make a lot
        > of sense" to me, and I have concluded that it is a good and fully-integrated
        > system of ethics and a proper model of existence.

        Again with that 'make a lot of sense'; you proclaim your subjectivity
        and still insist that the definition
        is somehow objective. Come on.

        > > It's not either-or. Our realities overlap enough so we can converse in
        > > the same language. It does not overlap enough to agree on questions of
        > > the absoluteness of morality, so it seems.
        >
        > The phyiscal world in which we live in is completely shared between us. (I
        > hope you agree to that). However, each of us have his own knowledge,

        Well, you forget that that alleged physical world is percieved by us
        using nothing but our senses which are both fallible and go through
        subjective filters, so any observation you might make about the
        physical world might not be the same as one I make about it. And then
        again it might.

        I only see the world through my own eyes.

        > opinions, thoughts, mental baggage, etc. Some people believe Mao was a heroic
        > figure, but you and I both know he was a mass-murderer. (Which a grown-up
        > Chinese programmer I talked with, didn't know that is the case, because he
        > was never told that). While the facts still stand, everyone has a different
        > conception of reality. However, his conception of reality is not reality
        > itself, but a mere conception. (All of this avoiding some technicalities as
        > the fact that our mind is made of atoms, etc.)

        Oh? How do you "KNOW" that his view of reality is the false one and
        yours is the true one? Do you have some ability to see reality in a
        way that is radically different than his? Are you superman?

        Have you ever met Mao? Did you ever chat? Did you form an opinion
        through means other than history books and the internet? You make an
        assumption about what's true and what's not based on not even your
        senses (which as I claim before are fallible etc) but other people's
        subjective thoughts and ideas put to print. Who said you're right?

        There is more than one reality, Shlomi.

        > > No. I simply deny your ability to arbitrate moral rules with logic.
        > OK. Well, I don't. If someone tells me "I think it should be OK to kill
        > people", then I could tell him "Fine, would you like it if I kill you?"
        > or "If I see you're killing too many people, then I'll kill you so you won't
        > end up killing me.". Thus, we're eliminating some falsified ethical rules
        > using logic.

        No you're not using logic. You're using your subjective judgment. That
        man might say, yes, you can try to kill me, and if you fail and I kill
        you I'll win, and if I fail and you kill me I'll be a Shahid and go to
        heaven and have 77 virgins and still win, so live or die I win because
        I'm a true believer and will go to heaven. If he says that I recommend
        you kill him because his reality is probably dangerous to you. To this
        person, killing you is moral because his subjective belief system sees
        it as moral.

        > What isn't provable or disprovable? Trying to guess: if someone makes a claim
        > that seems objective (rather than "I think..." or "I like...", etc.) then
        > either it is true, false, or cannot be demonstrated to be either true or
        > false. And it would be anti-intellectual to think this claim is meaningful
        > without demonstrating that it is indeed so.

        It is true UNDER SOME ASSUMPTIONS, like 2+2=4 is true under the
        assumption that you accept the axioms as true. This is the only way
        you can prove anything.

        > Like I said, when someone makes an assertion, the burden-of-proof is on him.

        Well, I assume whatever I say is true and under this assumption
        everything I said is true so there.

        -- Arik
      • Shlomi Fish
        ... Perhaps. But by that I meant that it seems to match my expectations. ... Right. ... Right. ... I m not talking about the so-called mathematical induction,
        Message 3 of 9 , May 13, 2007
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          On Saturday 28 April 2007, Arik Baratz wrote:
          > On 4/28/07, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
          > > I do accept the Peano axioms (which I'm well aware of) on "faith".
          > > However, they seem to "make sense", and using them one has proven the
          > > rest of
          >
          > That "make sense" thing is where your subjective belief system comes into
          > play.
          >

          Perhaps. But by that I meant that it seems to match my expectations.

          > > arithmetics and number theory in a consistent fashion, and with no
          > > contradictions so far. So I can accept them not based on "faith" but
          > > based on intuition, proof-by-induction and practical science.
          >
          > Well, one could construct a consistent system with different axioms
          > and still be practical. When you say "based on intuition" you're
          > actually saying 'based on what I *feel* or *believe* should be true
          > and correct'.

          Right.

          >
          > > As you know it's impossible to prove that all objects on planet earth,
          > > without intervention will try to go down. However, this is known to be
          > > the case by induction from many experiments, and from general practice.
          > > So we can assume it is the case.
          >
          > This is not math, this is physics. As you well know our physics is
          > based on empiric study of the world. There is a theory that there
          > exists a force called gravity, it's pulling objects towards each
          > other, and the force is equal to G(M1xM2)/r^2. This formula was
          > derived empirically from (I think) the Kepler observations, and G was
          > defined to fit the observations.
          >

          Right.

          > There is no induction here. Induction is proof.

          I'm not talking about the so-called mathematical induction, I'm talking about
          logical induction of proving that a rule is correct from various inidividual
          instances:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

          > What you have is
          > inference. You see two apples falling towards the ground and you
          > DEDUCE that the third apple will too. Contrary to popular belief,
          > these theories cannot be proven, they can only be very well
          > experimented with or disproven. You can say that from the many
          > experiments done in this field you infer that there is a force F=mg
          > pulling your object towards the ground. You cannot prove it by
          > induction. Let's try and see where that fails:
          >
          > n=0 - let's drop apple#0... okay it fell with the predicted speed in
          > vaccum. n=1 - let's drop apple#1... okay it fell much the same way
          > but wait these experiments are unrelated, maybe experiment 1234 won't
          > work the same. Induction requires that you will be able to say
          > something about i-1 but when each experiment is independent you
          > cannot.

          See above.

          >
          > > As you know, one can think of several different systems of ethics. And in
          > > a way, we can expect that they would vary in time as technology, economy
          > > and philosophy progresses. However, as you know, sometimes people can
          > > poke large holes within ethical systems, showing them to violate more
          > > basic, commonly accepted assumptions (as I have shown for some of the
          > > Ethics proposed by Kant and Kierkegaard). As such they can be rejected as
          > > false.
          >
          > Again you take something subjective like ethics and judge it
          > pseudo-objectively (rejected as false)

          I do not. I have proven that they are incorrect based on more basic
          assumptions.

          >
          > > While I don't know the precise reasoning, Ayn Rand and later on Neo-Tech
          > > have claimed to derive a set of absolute ethics using logic and very
          > > basic assumptions. And I should note that what Neo-Tech says seems to
          > > "make a lot of sense" to me, and I have concluded that it is a good and
          > > fully-integrated system of ethics and a proper model of existence.
          >
          > Again with that 'make a lot of sense'; you proclaim your subjectivity
          > and still insist that the definition
          > is somehow objective. Come on.

          I realise that if something "makes a lot of sense" it may not be correct. I'll
          give you that. However, after having seen N-T criticised by other people
          several times, and after I've understood why these criticisms were false, I
          concluded that I still believe Neo-Tech is true.

          >
          > > > It's not either-or. Our realities overlap enough so we can converse in
          > > > the same language. It does not overlap enough to agree on questions of
          > > > the absoluteness of morality, so it seems.
          > >
          > > The phyiscal world in which we live in is completely shared between us.
          > > (I hope you agree to that). However, each of us have his own knowledge,
          >
          > Well, you forget that that alleged physical world is percieved by us
          > using nothing but our senses which are both fallible and go through
          > subjective filters, so any observation you might make about the
          > physical world might not be the same as one I make about it. And then
          > again it might.
          >
          > I only see the world through my own eyes.

          Well, as I see it, "The Truth is Out There". Objective reality exists. People
          can be misled to believe something about it that is not true. And if they are
          hallucinating or under hypnosis, etc. may believe something completely
          different. However, the reality is still shared, and one can verify what
          indeed happens or happened.

          >
          > > opinions, thoughts, mental baggage, etc. Some people believe Mao was a
          > > heroic figure, but you and I both know he was a mass-murderer. (Which a
          > > grown-up Chinese programmer I talked with, didn't know that is the case,
          > > because he was never told that). While the facts still stand, everyone
          > > has a different conception of reality. However, his conception of reality
          > > is not reality itself, but a mere conception. (All of this avoiding some
          > > technicalities as the fact that our mind is made of atoms, etc.)
          >
          > Oh? How do you "KNOW" that his view of reality is the false one and
          > yours is the true one? Do you have some ability to see reality in a
          > way that is radically different than his? Are you superman?
          >
          > Have you ever met Mao? Did you ever chat? Did you form an opinion
          > through means other than history books and the internet? You make an
          > assumption about what's true and what's not based on not even your
          > senses (which as I claim before are fallible etc) but other people's
          > subjective thoughts and ideas put to print. Who said you're right?
          >
          > There is more than one reality, Shlomi.
          >

          No, there is exactly one reality, and we all share it. We can probably never
          be certain of what really happened or what are actually the facts, but we can
          be sure that they are shared among us all. Either I have a copy of a book
          called "How to Cook Everything" on my shelf next to me now, or I don't. You
          can come to my house and verify it. Similarly, either Mao is responsible for
          killing tens of millions of people or he was not.

          > > > No. I simply deny your ability to arbitrate moral rules with logic.
          > >
          > > OK. Well, I don't. If someone tells me "I think it should be OK to kill
          > > people", then I could tell him "Fine, would you like it if I kill you?"
          > > or "If I see you're killing too many people, then I'll kill you so you
          > > won't end up killing me.". Thus, we're eliminating some falsified ethical
          > > rules using logic.
          >
          > No you're not using logic. You're using your subjective judgment. That
          > man might say, yes, you can try to kill me, and if you fail and I kill
          > you I'll win, and if I fail and you kill me I'll be a Shahid and go to
          > heaven and have 77 virgins and still win, so live or die I win because
          > I'm a true believer and will go to heaven. If he says that I recommend
          > you kill him because his reality is probably dangerous to you. To this
          > person, killing you is moral because his subjective belief system sees
          > it as moral.

          Well, I can tell him that he cannot be certain he'll go to heaven, and much
          less that God is muslim. It is hard to believe the soul can persist without
          the body, because whatever affects the body is registered in the mind. And it
          is unlikely that God, assuming he indeed exists, favours the crazy and
          subjective religious theories as put forth by most religions. (And if he
          does - we're in deep trouble).

          You cannot rely on anything that happens to you after death. Death is most
          probably final.

          >
          > > What isn't provable or disprovable? Trying to guess: if someone makes a
          > > claim that seems objective (rather than "I think..." or "I like...",
          > > etc.) then either it is true, false, or cannot be demonstrated to be
          > > either true or false. And it would be anti-intellectual to think this
          > > claim is meaningful without demonstrating that it is indeed so.
          >
          > It is true UNDER SOME ASSUMPTIONS, like 2+2=4 is true under the
          > assumption that you accept the axioms as true. This is the only way
          > you can prove anything.
          >

          Right.

          > > Like I said, when someone makes an assertion, the burden-of-proof is on
          > > him.
          >
          > Well, I assume whatever I say is true and under this assumption
          > everything I said is true so there.
          >

          Well, I don't necessarily buy into what you said, because I need something
          more substantial than that. Not everything I'm saying is true.

          Regards,

          Shlomi Fish

          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

          If it's not in my E-mail it doesn't happen. And if my E-mail is saying
          one thing, and everything else says something else - E-mail will conquer.
          -- An Israeli Linuxer
        • Nadav Har'El
          ... In this discussion, you guys digressed from the philosophical area of Ethics which was previously discussed, into Metaphysics, namely Ontology (what
          Message 4 of 9 , May 13, 2007
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            On Sun, May 13, 2007, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] Re: Objectivity":
            > > Well, you forget that that alleged physical world is percieved by us
            > > using nothing but our senses which are both fallible and go through
            > > subjective filters, so any observation you might make about the
            > > physical world might not be the same as one I make about it. And then
            > > again it might.
            > >
            > > I only see the world through my own eyes.
            >
            > Well, as I see it, "The Truth is Out There". Objective reality exists. People
            > can be misled to believe something about it that is not true. And if they are
            > hallucinating or under hypnosis, etc. may believe something completely
            > different. However, the reality is still shared, and one can verify what
            > indeed happens or happened.

            In this discussion, you guys digressed from the philosophical area of Ethics
            which was previously discussed, into Metaphysics, namely Ontology (what
            entities really exist) and Epistemology (how can we know anything about these
            entities). I think that its problematic, even dangerous, to confuse these
            subjects. The fact that you believe in "objective reality" doesn't immediately
            imply a certain choice of Ethics.

            Let me give you a simple example: your choice of Ethics apparently hinges on
            the axiom "it is wrong to deny a human's biological needs", expanded into a
            full ethical system using some sort of Utilitarian [1] method. But how does
            this choice stem from your "objective reality" understanding of metaphysics?
            I believe it doesn't. Who says we should use your axiom and not, for example,
            one that gives meaning also to the biological needs of other creatures, not
            just humans? Who said we should use a Utilitarian ethic, and not something
            else (Preference Utilitarianism, Deontological Ethics, or whatever)? And even
            if we're to use your axiom (paraphrased by me), perhaps we should take it
            literally to imply that a person's biological need is to have his kin
            procreate, so Gingis Khan's biological need was to kill his enemies and let
            his own people procreate? (to this day, you can see a lot of Mongolian-looking
            people in Iran, and other places you wouldn't expect to see them).

            [1] If you don't know what this, or other capitalized word in my mail, means,
            feel free to look it up in your favorite source of information.

            > No, there is exactly one reality, and we all share it. We can probably never
            > be certain of what really happened or what are actually the facts, but we can
            > be sure that they are shared among us all. Either I have a copy of a book
            > called "How to Cook Everything" on my shelf next to me now, or I don't. You
            > can come to my house and verify it. Similarly, either Mao is responsible for
            > killing tens of millions of people or he was not.

            Even if there is one "reality" (in the sense of Ontology), there may be more
            than one way to understand it (in the sense of Epistomology), and certainly
            more than one way to put a "value judgements" on it (in the sense of Ethics).

            For example, in the book of "reality", you can find that Mao, Stalin, Hitler
            and Churchill, all caused millions of people to be killed. So are these 4
            people all the same? We can't dispute the "reality" that in each of these
            people's leadership, millions of people got killed. But we can dispute the
            way we look at it - e.g., the obvious objection to what I just said is to
            say "yes, but please look at *why* these people did it", and we can fish
            up more nuggets of "reality", such as "Hitler killed 6 million innocent Jews"
            and "Churchill went to war to stop Hitler". Exactly which of these nuggets
            of reality you pick when you describe each of these 4 individuals is what
            Arik called the "subjective reality". For one, Stalin might be someone who
            "Caused 20 million russians to be killed in WWII, and afterward had 3 million
            killed and caused the rest of the russian become misrable". For another
            person Stalin might be someone who "Courageously stopped Hitler, and tried
            to bring about better equality in the USSR". This is not different reality -
            it's different interpretation of the same reality.

            And these different intrpretations can bring to different moral judgement -
            if you take the first interpretation, Stalin is "guilty", an unethical
            mass-murderer. If you use the second, Stalin is ethical, and his actions
            the lesser of two evils.

            Of course, even if you look at the same reality, and the same interpretation
            of reality, even then you can use different systems of ethics to give the
            same actions different moral judgements. I think I gave plenty enough examples
            of this.

            --
            Nadav Har'El | Sunday, May 13 2007, 25 Iyyar 5767
            nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
            Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Topologist, n.: A person who cannot tell
            http://nadav.harel.org.il |a doughnut from a coffee mug.
          • Arik Baratz
            ... So I reject their very basic assumptions . I don t know what they are, but when I ll see them I ll reject them. The reason for this preposterous claim is
            Message 5 of 9 , May 13, 2007
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              On 5/13/07, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
              > > Again you take something subjective like ethics and judge it
              > > pseudo-objectively (rejected as false)
              >
              > I do not. I have proven that they are incorrect based on more basic
              > assumptions.

              So I reject their "very basic assumptions". I don't know what they
              are, but when I'll see them I'll reject them. The reason for this
              preposterous claim is that I'm sure that there are no assumptions I
              would agree with which can derive absolute morality by logical means.

              > I realise that if something "makes a lot of sense" it may not be correct. I'll
              > give you that. However, after having seen N-T criticised by other people
              > several times, and after I've understood why these criticisms were false, I
              > concluded that I still believe Neo-Tech is true.

              That's no proof, and you have take what they said to be true for a
              fact. I don't have a problem with that as long as you admit it's not a
              proof and it's a belief that you're holding.

              > Well, as I see it, "The Truth is Out There". Objective reality exists. People
              > can be misled to believe something about it that is not true. And if they are
              > hallucinating or under hypnosis, etc. may believe something completely
              > different. However, the reality is still shared, and one can verify what
              > indeed happens or happened.

              And as I see it, objective reality, if it exists (and I believe it
              exists I just can't prove it) is highly overrated. We all live in a
              subjective reality and perhaps objective reality is what allows us to
              communicate but that's pretty much it.

              > > There is more than one reality, Shlomi.
              >
              > No, there is exactly one reality, and we all share it. We can probably never
              > be certain of what really happened or what are actually the facts, but we can
              > be sure that they are shared among us all. Either I have a copy of a book
              > called "How to Cook Everything" on my shelf next to me now, or I don't. You
              > can come to my house and verify it. Similarly, either Mao is responsible for
              > killing tens of millions of people or he was not.

              You say you have the book, and I believe that you believe you have the
              book. Maybe you are hallucinating. Maybe you are hypnotized. Sometimes
              I can tell.

              Mao may have even pulled the trigger himself. The question is, is he a
              bad person. My answer is, according to my moral values he is. There
              are moral systems where he's not.

              > Well, I can tell him that he cannot be certain he'll go to heaven, and much
              > less that God is muslim. It is hard to believe the soul can persist without

              But he "knows" he'll go to heaven and that "god" is a muslim. You
              can't beat that. Unless you use a heavy stick.

              > the body, because whatever affects the body is registered in the mind. And it
              > is unlikely that God, assuming he indeed exists, favours the crazy and
              > subjective religious theories as put forth by most religions. (And if he
              > does - we're in deep trouble).

              I'll leave figuring out why this past paragraph is talking about
              subjective reality as absolute reality as an exercise to the reader.

              > You cannot rely on anything that happens to you after death. Death is most
              > probably final.

              How can you tell? You don't know that and can't know that or even know
              whether it's probable or not.

              > > > Like I said, when someone makes an assertion, the burden-of-proof is on
              > > > him.
              > >
              > > Well, I assume whatever I say is true and under this assumption
              > > everything I said is true so there.
              > >
              >
              > Well, I don't necessarily buy into what you said, because I need something
              > more substantial than that. Not everything I'm saying is true.

              It was an example of subjective thinking. I'm asserting that
              everything I say is right and using that as my axiom in proving pretty
              much anything. It's as good as other axioms.

              -- Arik
            • Arik Baratz
              ... I put that the interpretation is more important than a would-be same reality . -- Arik
              Message 6 of 9 , May 13, 2007
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                On 5/13/07, Nadav Har'El <nyh@...> wrote:
                > to bring about better equality in the USSR". This is not different reality -
                > it's different interpretation of the same reality.

                I put that the interpretation is more important than a would-be 'same reality'.

                -- Arik
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