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[OT] Re: [hackers-il] Thoughts about Whether to Become Independant

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  • Arik Baratz
    ... Hi Shlomi I disagree. I think it s as prevalent in Israel as much as it is in the states. The biggest no-no, which is living with your girlfriend or wife
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 16, 2006
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      On 7/15/06, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:

      > [LiveAtHome] - Note to American and other international readers: in Israel
      > there is much less a taboo against children living in their parents' house
      > even after graduation from college. I am not the only one in my age that
      > lives in his parents' house.

      Hi Shlomi

      I disagree. I think it's as prevalent in Israel as much as it is in the states.

      The biggest no-no, which is living with your girlfriend or wife in
      your parents' house, is as much in effect in Israel as it is in, for
      example, the US.

      Living with your parents after collage before you have a decent job is
      not as uncommon as it seems in the US.

      -- Arik
    • Shlomi Fish
      Hi Arik! ... I m not sure. When some USers I talked with heard that I m 28 (29 by now) and live with my parents, they were a bit shocked. I have some IRC
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 16, 2006
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        Hi Arik!

        On Sunday 16 July 2006 10:43, Arik Baratz wrote:
        > On 7/15/06, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
        > > [LiveAtHome] - Note to American and other international readers: in
        > > Israel there is much less a taboo against children living in their
        > > parents' house even after graduation from college. I am not the only one
        > > in my age that lives in his parents' house.
        >
        > Hi Shlomi
        >
        > I disagree. I think it's as prevalent in Israel as much as it is in the
        > states.

        I'm not sure. When some USers I talked with heard that I'm 28 (29 by now) and
        live with my parents, they were a bit shocked. I have some IRC conversations
        to prove it.

        >
        > The biggest no-no, which is living with your girlfriend or wife in
        > your parents' house, is as much in effect in Israel as it is in, for
        > example, the US.

        Possibly. Nevertheless, one of my cousins lived with his wife at my uncle's
        apartment, for a while after they were married. And no-one seemed to mind.

        >
        > Living with your parents after collage before you have a decent job is
        > not as uncommon as it seems in the US.
        >

        Possibly. Of course, people in the States often get their B.Sc./B.A./etc.
        earlier than most people in Israel (due to the army, getting a
        post-army-or-high-school job, the traditional long trips abroad, etc.)

        Note however, that an Indian friend told me that in India there is even less
        of a taboo. There married couples often move into the house of one of the
        parents and live with them. It is possible that it is acceptable for them to
        even have children while remaining there.

        Most of the excuses I heard from Americans to moving out of your parents'
        house boils down to having "independence". However, I don't think you are
        acting completely non-indepenently when you are staying with your parents.
        While it is more convenient to do so, there are other ways in which your
        independence manifests itself, and one swallow does not make a spring.

        Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

        Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
        destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
      • Chen Shapira
        I ve been thinking about becoming independent as well. I add some of my thoughts below. ... Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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          I've been thinking about becoming independent as well.
          I add some of my thoughts below.

          > -----Original Message-----
          > 1. I'll have to do my own accounting, taxes, etc.
          > -------------------------------------------------

          Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
          recommended, since I'm not sure if GnuCash covers the Israeli tax laws.

          > 2. I can do what I choose
          > -------------------------
          To some extent, this is true. However, you may have to take projects you
          prefer not to simply because you need the money, want to get a foot in
          the door with a specific client, etc.

          A friend of mine is an independent interior designer and she had to be
          back at work few days after giving birth, simply because her clients
          needed her and she didn't want to risk them turning to someone else.
          This is something employees don't worry about.

          > 3. I would need good contacts and publicity
          > -------------------------------------------

          I think this is the most difficult point.
          It is not enough to be known, you need to be liked as well. People will
          hire you only if they think that they'll enjoy working with you. I don't
          know of anyone who hired a consultant they didn't like. In fact, the
          consultants I know are the nicest people ever.

          Forgive me for being frank, but you have a knack for pissing people off.
          I think you can name more than one person who will never ever hire you.
          This is not the right direction.

          > 4. More time to do the things I like:
          > -------------------------------------
          Not sure about this one. Independents tend to be more busy than
          employees because in addition to their main job duties, they also need
          to do marketing, chase clients and force them to pay, etc.

          > 5. I can see the world:
          > -----------------------
          Anything prevents you from going to conferences right now?
          The only plus side is that the travel expenses will be tax-deductible.


          I think you can make a rather good consultant if you can only improve
          two things:
          1. People skills. Actively try to be very nice and accommodating. You
          tend to annoy many people, and those you annoyed will not hire you.
          Don't fool yourself - No matter how good you are, people will not hire
          you unless they will enjoy working with you.

          2. If you want to train people, you'll need to improve your public
          speaking skills. I saw you are already working on this.

          Thanks,
          Chen

          ______________________________________________________________________
          This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
          For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
          ______________________________________________________________________
        • Gadi Evron
          ... Yes, but the Israeli Tax Authority would never ever forget about you.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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            On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, Chen Shapira wrote:
            > I've been thinking about becoming independent as well.
            > I add some of my thoughts below.
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > 1. I'll have to do my own accounting, taxes, etc.
            > > -------------------------------------------------
            >
            > Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
            > recommended, since I'm not sure if GnuCash covers the Israeli tax laws.

            Yes, but the Israeli Tax Authority would never ever forget about you.


            >
            > > 2. I can do what I choose
            > > -------------------------
            > To some extent, this is true. However, you may have to take projects you
            > prefer not to simply because you need the money, want to get a foot in
            > the door with a specific client, etc.
            >
            > A friend of mine is an independent interior designer and she had to be
            > back at work few days after giving birth, simply because her clients
            > needed her and she didn't want to risk them turning to someone else.
            > This is something employees don't worry about.
            >
            > > 3. I would need good contacts and publicity
            > > -------------------------------------------
            >
            > I think this is the most difficult point.
            > It is not enough to be known, you need to be liked as well. People will
            > hire you only if they think that they'll enjoy working with you. I don't
            > know of anyone who hired a consultant they didn't like. In fact, the
            > consultants I know are the nicest people ever.
            >
            > Forgive me for being frank, but you have a knack for pissing people off.
            > I think you can name more than one person who will never ever hire you.
            > This is not the right direction.
            >
            > > 4. More time to do the things I like:
            > > -------------------------------------
            > Not sure about this one. Independents tend to be more busy than
            > employees because in addition to their main job duties, they also need
            > to do marketing, chase clients and force them to pay, etc.
            >
            > > 5. I can see the world:
            > > -----------------------
            > Anything prevents you from going to conferences right now?
            > The only plus side is that the travel expenses will be tax-deductible.
            >
            >
            > I think you can make a rather good consultant if you can only improve
            > two things:
            > 1. People skills. Actively try to be very nice and accommodating. You
            > tend to annoy many people, and those you annoyed will not hire you.
            > Don't fool yourself - No matter how good you are, people will not hire
            > you unless they will enjoy working with you.
            >
            > 2. If you want to train people, you'll need to improve your public
            > speaking skills. I saw you are already working on this.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Chen
            >
            > ______________________________________________________________________
            > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
            > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
            > ______________________________________________________________________
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Shlomo Dubrowin
            Regarding the Israeli Tax Authority: My wife has her own business and is therefore independent. The Israeli Tax Authority will only accept computerized
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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              Regarding the Israeli Tax Authority:

              My wife has her own business and is therefore independent.  The Israeli Tax Authority will only accept computerized information from specific expensive, non-open source, non-linux based applications.  Otherwise you have to keep a paper, handwritten ledger.  My wife keeps her books in a spreadsheet and then copies it into the ledger once a month.  Then she can send her reports or copies or whatever to her accountant.  Also important in Israel are the receipt books.  As far as I understand, every transaction needs to be written in the receipt book so the customer gets a receipt.  This is my understanding, the business is not mine, I just get to offer advice when requested. ;-)  Hope this helps you guys.

                Shlomo

              On 7/18/06, Gadi Evron <ge@...> wrote:

              On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, Chen Shapira wrote:
              > I've been thinking about becoming independent as well.
              > I add some of my thoughts below.
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > 1. I'll have to do my own accounting, taxes, etc.
              > > -------------------------------------------------
              >
              > Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
              > recommended, since I'm not sure if GnuCash covers the Israeli tax laws.

              Yes, but the Israeli Tax Authority would never ever forget about you.

              >
              > > 2. I can do what I choose
              > > -------------------------
              > To some extent, this is true. However, you may have to take projects you
              > prefer not to simply because you need the money, want to get a foot in
              > the door with a specific client, etc.
              >
              > A friend of mine is an independent interior designer and she had to be
              > back at work few days after giving birth, simply because her clients
              > needed her and she didn't want to risk them turning to someone else.
              > This is something employees don't worry about.
              >
              > > 3. I would need good contacts and publicity
              > > -------------------------------------------
              >
              > I think this is the most difficult point.
              > It is not enough to be known, you need to be liked as well. People will
              > hire you only if they think that they'll enjoy working with you. I don't
              > know of anyone who hired a consultant they didn't like. In fact, the
              > consultants I know are the nicest people ever.
              >
              > Forgive me for being frank, but you have a knack for pissing people off.
              > I think you can name more than one person who will never ever hire you.
              > This is not the right direction.
              >
              > > 4. More time to do the things I like:
              > > -------------------------------------
              > Not sure about this one. Independents tend to be more busy than
              > employees because in addition to their main job duties, they also need
              > to do marketing, chase clients and force them to pay, etc.
              >
              > > 5. I can see the world:
              > > -----------------------
              > Anything prevents you from going to conferences right now?
              > The only plus side is that the travel expenses will be tax-deductible.
              >
              >
              > I think you can make a rather good consultant if you can only improve
              > two things:
              > 1. People skills. Actively try to be very nice and accommodating. You
              > tend to annoy many people, and those you annoyed will not hire you.
              > Don't fool yourself - No matter how good you are, people will not hire
              > you unless they will enjoy working with you.
              >
              > 2. If you want to train people, you'll need to improve your public
              > speaking skills. I saw you are already working on this.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Chen
              >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
              > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
              > __________________________________________________________
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




              --
              -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                ,-~~-.___.    ._.
              / |  '     \   | |"""""""""|           Shlomo Dubrowin
              (  )         0  | |         |             (Sheldon)
              \_/-, ,----'   | |         |
                  ====        !_!--v---v--"
                  /  \-'~;      |""""""""|            shlomo@...
                 /  __/~| ._-""||        |          http://www.dubrowin.org
              =(  _____|_|____||________|
              -----------------------------------------------------------------------
            • Omer Shapira
              ... I would like to post a link to an article written by a consultant we had a joy working with: http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/be-consultant.html --
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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                On 7/16/06, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
                > Hi all!
                >
                > This is a new essay I wrote today, as a way to brainstorm an idea I'm having.
                > It's written from my personal perspective but has implications for many tech
                > workers. Please read it if you have the time and nerve. Flame away!

                I would like to post a link to an article written by a consultant we
                had a joy working with:

                http://www.unixwiz.net/techtips/be-consultant.html

                --
                Sincerely Yours,
                Omer Shapira
              • Micha Feigin
                On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:09:35 +0300 ... You need to give a receipt for all transactions, but I heard (you should make sure though) that you are allowed to issue
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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                  On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:09:35 +0300
                  "Shlomo Dubrowin" <dubrowin@...> wrote:

                  > Regarding the Israeli Tax Authority:
                  >
                  > My wife has her own business and is therefore independent. The Israeli Tax
                  > Authority will only accept computerized information from specific expensive,
                  > non-open source, non-linux based applications. Otherwise you have to keep a
                  > paper, handwritten ledger. My wife keeps her books in a spreadsheet and
                  > then copies it into the ledger once a month. Then she can send her reports
                  > or copies or whatever to her accountant. Also important in Israel are the
                  > receipt books. As far as I understand, every transaction needs to be
                  > written in the receipt book so the customer gets a receipt. This is my
                  > understanding, the business is not mine, I just get to offer advice when
                  > requested. ;-) Hope this helps you guys.
                  >
                  > Shlomo
                  >

                  You need to give a receipt for all transactions, but I heard (you should make
                  sure though) that you are allowed to issue receipts using excel and such, you
                  don't need personalized receipts. You do need to be able to show records
                  though. There are also generic paper receipts you can buy.

                  AFAIK if you are not using a recognized accounting program you need to get an
                  accountant to sign off on you books.

                  > On 7/18/06, Gadi Evron <ge@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, Chen Shapira wrote:
                  > > > I've been thinking about becoming independent as well.
                  > > > I add some of my thoughts below.
                  > > >
                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > 1. I'll have to do my own accounting, taxes, etc.
                  > > > > -------------------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > > Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
                  > > > recommended, since I'm not sure if GnuCash covers the Israeli tax laws.
                  > >
                  > > Yes, but the Israeli Tax Authority would never ever forget about you.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > 2. I can do what I choose
                  > > > > -------------------------
                  > > > To some extent, this is true. However, you may have to take projects you
                  > > > prefer not to simply because you need the money, want to get a foot in
                  > > > the door with a specific client, etc.
                  > > >
                  > > > A friend of mine is an independent interior designer and she had to be
                  > > > back at work few days after giving birth, simply because her clients
                  > > > needed her and she didn't want to risk them turning to someone else.
                  > > > This is something employees don't worry about.
                  > > >
                  > > > > 3. I would need good contacts and publicity
                  > > > > -------------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > > I think this is the most difficult point.
                  > > > It is not enough to be known, you need to be liked as well. People will
                  > > > hire you only if they think that they'll enjoy working with you. I don't
                  > > > know of anyone who hired a consultant they didn't like. In fact, the
                  > > > consultants I know are the nicest people ever.
                  > > >
                  > > > Forgive me for being frank, but you have a knack for pissing people off.
                  > > > I think you can name more than one person who will never ever hire you.
                  > > > This is not the right direction.
                  > > >
                  > > > > 4. More time to do the things I like:
                  > > > > -------------------------------------
                  > > > Not sure about this one. Independents tend to be more busy than
                  > > > employees because in addition to their main job duties, they also need
                  > > > to do marketing, chase clients and force them to pay, etc.
                  > > >
                  > > > > 5. I can see the world:
                  > > > > -----------------------
                  > > > Anything prevents you from going to conferences right now?
                  > > > The only plus side is that the travel expenses will be tax-deductible.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I think you can make a rather good consultant if you can only improve
                  > > > two things:
                  > > > 1. People skills. Actively try to be very nice and accommodating. You
                  > > > tend to annoy many people, and those you annoyed will not hire you.
                  > > > Don't fool yourself - No matter how good you are, people will not hire
                  > > > you unless they will enjoy working with you.
                  > > >
                  > > > 2. If you want to train people, you'll need to improve your public
                  > > > speaking skills. I saw you are already working on this.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks,
                  > > > Chen
                  > > >
                  > > > __________________________________________________________
                  > > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
                  > > > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
                  > > > __________________________________________________________
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Ori Idan
                  Just wanted to add my own thoughts as an independent for more then 10 years. 1. Doing accounting etc. It is better to hire an accountant. I write my own
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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                    Just wanted to add my own thoughts as an independent for more then 10 years.

                    1. Doing accounting etc.
                    It is better to hire an accountant. I write my own invoices (using
                    drorit, a free software I wrote) and sending all of them
                    once a month to my accountant who will do the actual reports to the tax
                    authorities, this is not such a big deal.

                    2. I can do what I choose
                    This is not as simple as it seems, you must do many things you probably
                    don't like such as marketing. Plus you may have to do some boring jobs
                    requested by your customers.

                    3. Good contacts and publicity
                    This is the most important thing. you must do marketing and sales for
                    yourself which might not be an easy task, this is a proffesion by it's own.

                    4. More time to do the things I like
                    This is sometimes true. This is the main reason I work as an independent
                    consultant so I don't have to work long hours each day.

                    --
                    Ori Idan

                    Chen Shapira wrote:
                    >
                    > I've been thinking about becoming independent as well.
                    > I add some of my thoughts below.
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > 1. I'll have to do my own accounting, taxes, etc.
                    > > -------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
                    > recommended, since I'm not sure if GnuCash covers the Israeli tax laws.
                    >
                    > > 2. I can do what I choose
                    > > -------------------------
                    > To some extent, this is true. However, you may have to take projects you
                    > prefer not to simply because you need the money, want to get a foot in
                    > the door with a specific client, etc.
                    >
                    > A friend of mine is an independent interior designer and she had to be
                    > back at work few days after giving birth, simply because her clients
                    > needed her and she didn't want to risk them turning to someone else.
                    > This is something employees don't worry about.
                    >
                    > > 3. I would need good contacts and publicity
                    > > -------------------------------------------
                    >
                    > I think this is the most difficult point.
                    > It is not enough to be known, you need to be liked as well. People will
                    > hire you only if they think that they'll enjoy working with you. I don't
                    > know of anyone who hired a consultant they didn't like. In fact, the
                    > consultants I know are the nicest people ever.
                    >
                    > Forgive me for being frank, but you have a knack for pissing people off.
                    > I think you can name more than one person who will never ever hire you.
                    > This is not the right direction.
                    >
                    > > 4. More time to do the things I like:
                    > > -------------------------------------
                    > Not sure about this one. Independents tend to be more busy than
                    > employees because in addition to their main job duties, they also need
                    > to do marketing, chase clients and force them to pay, etc.
                    >
                    > > 5. I can see the world:
                    > > -----------------------
                    > Anything prevents you from going to conferences right now?
                    > The only plus side is that the travel expenses will be tax-deductible.
                    >
                    > I think you can make a rather good consultant if you can only improve
                    > two things:
                    > 1. People skills. Actively try to be very nice and accommodating. You
                    > tend to annoy many people, and those you annoyed will not hire you.
                    > Don't fool yourself - No matter how good you are, people will not hire
                    > you unless they will enjoy working with you.
                    >
                    > 2. If you want to train people, you'll need to improve your public
                    > speaking skills. I saw you are already working on this.
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Chen
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________________
                    > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
                    > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
                    > <http://www.messagelabs.com/email>
                    > __________________________________________________________
                    >
                    >
                  • Ori Idan
                    I think this is Off topic but I will answer anyway. You may not issue a receipt or invoice using a spreadsheet or an editor since with an editor you can change
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 19, 2006
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                      I think this is Off topic but I will answer anyway.
                      You may not issue a receipt or invoice using a spreadsheet or an editor
                      since with an editor you can change the number of the receipt.
                      The most important requirement is that you can not easily change the
                      receipt number.

                      As for signing the books you are right if you don't use an authorized
                      software you may not issue reports based on this software.

                      --
                      Ori Idan

                      Micha Feigin wrote:
                      >
                      > On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:09:35 +0300
                      > "Shlomo Dubrowin" <dubrowin@... <mailto:dubrowin%40gmail.com>>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > Regarding the Israeli Tax Authority:
                      > >
                      > > My wife has her own business and is therefore independent. The
                      > Israeli Tax
                      > > Authority will only accept computerized information from specific
                      > expensive,
                      > > non-open source, non-linux based applications. Otherwise you have to
                      > keep a
                      > > paper, handwritten ledger. My wife keeps her books in a spreadsheet and
                      > > then copies it into the ledger once a month. Then she can send her
                      > reports
                      > > or copies or whatever to her accountant. Also important in Israel
                      > are the
                      > > receipt books. As far as I understand, every transaction needs to be
                      > > written in the receipt book so the customer gets a receipt. This is my
                      > > understanding, the business is not mine, I just get to offer advice when
                      > > requested. ;-) Hope this helps you guys.
                      > >
                      > > Shlomo
                      > >
                      >
                      > You need to give a receipt for all transactions, but I heard (you
                      > should make
                      > sure though) that you are allowed to issue receipts using excel and
                      > such, you
                      > don't need personalized receipts. You do need to be able to show records
                      > though. There are also generic paper receipts you can buy.
                      >
                      > AFAIK if you are not using a recognized accounting program you need to
                      > get an
                      > accountant to sign off on you books.
                      >
                      > > On 7/18/06, Gadi Evron <ge@... <mailto:ge%40linuxbox.org>>
                      > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, Chen Shapira wrote:
                      > > > > I've been thinking about becoming independent as well.
                      > > > > I add some of my thoughts below.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > 1. I'll have to do my own accounting, taxes, etc.
                      > > > > > -------------------------------------------------
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
                      > > > > recommended, since I'm not sure if GnuCash covers the Israeli
                      > tax laws.
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes, but the Israeli Tax Authority would never ever forget about you.
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > 2. I can do what I choose
                      > > > > > -------------------------
                      > > > > To some extent, this is true. However, you may have to take
                      > projects you
                      > > > > prefer not to simply because you need the money, want to get a
                      > foot in
                      > > > > the door with a specific client, etc.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > A friend of mine is an independent interior designer and she had
                      > to be
                      > > > > back at work few days after giving birth, simply because her clients
                      > > > > needed her and she didn't want to risk them turning to someone else.
                      > > > > This is something employees don't worry about.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > 3. I would need good contacts and publicity
                      > > > > > -------------------------------------------
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think this is the most difficult point.
                      > > > > It is not enough to be known, you need to be liked as well.
                      > People will
                      > > > > hire you only if they think that they'll enjoy working with you.
                      > I don't
                      > > > > know of anyone who hired a consultant they didn't like. In fact, the
                      > > > > consultants I know are the nicest people ever.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Forgive me for being frank, but you have a knack for pissing
                      > people off.
                      > > > > I think you can name more than one person who will never ever
                      > hire you.
                      > > > > This is not the right direction.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > 4. More time to do the things I like:
                      > > > > > -------------------------------------
                      > > > > Not sure about this one. Independents tend to be more busy than
                      > > > > employees because in addition to their main job duties, they
                      > also need
                      > > > > to do marketing, chase clients and force them to pay, etc.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > 5. I can see the world:
                      > > > > > -----------------------
                      > > > > Anything prevents you from going to conferences right now?
                      > > > > The only plus side is that the travel expenses will be
                      > tax-deductible.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think you can make a rather good consultant if you can only
                      > improve
                      > > > > two things:
                      > > > > 1. People skills. Actively try to be very nice and
                      > accommodating. You
                      > > > > tend to annoy many people, and those you annoyed will not hire you.
                      > > > > Don't fool yourself - No matter how good you are, people will
                      > not hire
                      > > > > you unless they will enjoy working with you.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > 2. If you want to train people, you'll need to improve your public
                      > > > > speaking skills. I saw you are already working on this.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks,
                      > > > > Chen
                      > > > >
                      > > > > __________________________________________________________
                      > > > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
                      > System.
                      > > > > For more information please visit
                      > http://www.messagelabs.com/email <http://www.messagelabs.com/email>
                      > > > > __________________________________________________________
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • guy keren
                      actually, the law says that your software must ensure you ll never have two receipts with the same number. --guy
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 20, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        actually, the law says that your software must ensure you'll never have
                        two receipts with the same number.

                        --guy

                        On Thu, 2006-07-20 at 09:29 +0300, Ori Idan wrote:
                        > I think this is Off topic but I will answer anyway.
                        > You may not issue a receipt or invoice using a spreadsheet or an editor
                        > since with an editor you can change the number of the receipt.
                        > The most important requirement is that you can not easily change the
                        > receipt number.
                        >
                        > As for signing the books you are right if you don't use an authorized
                        > software you may not issue reports based on this software.
                        >
                        > --
                        > Ori Idan
                        >
                        > Micha Feigin wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:09:35 +0300
                        > > "Shlomo Dubrowin" <dubrowin@... <mailto:dubrowin%40gmail.com>>
                        > > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Regarding the Israeli Tax Authority:
                        > > >
                        > > > My wife has her own business and is therefore independent. The
                        > > Israeli Tax
                        > > > Authority will only accept computerized information from specific
                        > > expensive,
                        > > > non-open source, non-linux based applications. Otherwise you have to
                        > > keep a
                        > > > paper, handwritten ledger. My wife keeps her books in a spreadsheet and
                        > > > then copies it into the ledger once a month. Then she can send her
                        > > reports
                        > > > or copies or whatever to her accountant. Also important in Israel
                        > > are the
                        > > > receipt books. As far as I understand, every transaction needs to be
                        > > > written in the receipt book so the customer gets a receipt. This is my
                        > > > understanding, the business is not mine, I just get to offer advice when
                        > > > requested. ;-) Hope this helps you guys.
                        > > >
                        > > > Shlomo
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > You need to give a receipt for all transactions, but I heard (you
                        > > should make
                        > > sure though) that you are allowed to issue receipts using excel and
                        > > such, you
                        > > don't need personalized receipts. You do need to be able to show records
                        > > though. There are also generic paper receipts you can buy.
                        > >
                        > > AFAIK if you are not using a recognized accounting program you need to
                        > > get an
                        > > accountant to sign off on you books.
                        > >
                        > > > On 7/18/06, Gadi Evron <ge@... <mailto:ge%40linuxbox.org>>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, Chen Shapira wrote:
                        > > > > > I've been thinking about becoming independent as well.
                        > > > > > I add some of my thoughts below.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > > 1. I'll have to do my own accounting, taxes, etc.
                        > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
                        > > > > > recommended, since I'm not sure if GnuCash covers the Israeli
                        > > tax laws.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yes, but the Israeli Tax Authority would never ever forget about you.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > 2. I can do what I choose
                        > > > > > > -------------------------
                        > > > > > To some extent, this is true. However, you may have to take
                        > > projects you
                        > > > > > prefer not to simply because you need the money, want to get a
                        > > foot in
                        > > > > > the door with a specific client, etc.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > A friend of mine is an independent interior designer and she had
                        > > to be
                        > > > > > back at work few days after giving birth, simply because her clients
                        > > > > > needed her and she didn't want to risk them turning to someone else.
                        > > > > > This is something employees don't worry about.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > 3. I would need good contacts and publicity
                        > > > > > > -------------------------------------------
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I think this is the most difficult point.
                        > > > > > It is not enough to be known, you need to be liked as well.
                        > > People will
                        > > > > > hire you only if they think that they'll enjoy working with you.
                        > > I don't
                        > > > > > know of anyone who hired a consultant they didn't like. In fact, the
                        > > > > > consultants I know are the nicest people ever.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Forgive me for being frank, but you have a knack for pissing
                        > > people off.
                        > > > > > I think you can name more than one person who will never ever
                        > > hire you.
                        > > > > > This is not the right direction.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > 4. More time to do the things I like:
                        > > > > > > -------------------------------------
                        > > > > > Not sure about this one. Independents tend to be more busy than
                        > > > > > employees because in addition to their main job duties, they
                        > > also need
                        > > > > > to do marketing, chase clients and force them to pay, etc.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > 5. I can see the world:
                        > > > > > > -----------------------
                        > > > > > Anything prevents you from going to conferences right now?
                        > > > > > The only plus side is that the travel expenses will be
                        > > tax-deductible.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I think you can make a rather good consultant if you can only
                        > > improve
                        > > > > > two things:
                        > > > > > 1. People skills. Actively try to be very nice and
                        > > accommodating. You
                        > > > > > tend to annoy many people, and those you annoyed will not hire you.
                        > > > > > Don't fool yourself - No matter how good you are, people will
                        > > not hire
                        > > > > > you unless they will enjoy working with you.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 2. If you want to train people, you'll need to improve your public
                        > > > > > speaking skills. I saw you are already working on this.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > > Chen
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > __________________________________________________________
                        > > > > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
                        > > System.
                        > > > > > For more information please visit
                        > > http://www.messagelabs.com/email <http://www.messagelabs.com/email>
                        > > > > > __________________________________________________________
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Eli Billauer
                        Hello, Since this is becoming a thread in itself, allow me, as a freelancer for something like six years, tell me what it means in terms of formalities. As for
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 20, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello,

                          Since this is becoming a thread in itself, allow me, as a freelancer for
                          something like six years, tell me what it means in terms of formalities.

                          As for issuing invoices and receipts: Forget about software. You go to
                          Office Depot, pay some 200 NIS and get your personalized invoice and
                          receipt books (preferably separate), and that's the end of story. When
                          working with hitec companies, there are few invoices to issue, so there
                          is zero reason to do anything else than what the tax authorities are
                          best acquainted with.

                          As for the routine: Once a month (for some it's once in two months) you
                          go to the post office and pay taxes according to a percentage of your
                          total invoice sums for that period. It's very simple math, but it's
                          important not to forget to do this in time.

                          The second piece of routine is to make an annual report, which, well, is
                          done once a year. I let my accountant do it for me. It should cost
                          something like 2000-3000 NIS per year, but in many cases it pays off,
                          not to mention that you have someone to call up during the year to ask
                          if there is something special you should do when buying a new cellphone
                          (don't ask me, I forgot). And you would also like to have someone to ask
                          why Bituach Leumi has suddenly decided that you owe them 30,000 NIS. And
                          several other things that an accountant should teach you.

                          Aside from that, ladies and gentlemen, the burden depends on how much
                          you want to save a shekel here or there by making your expenses
                          recognized. And how much you want your money in the pocket NOW (as
                          opposed to a tax refund a year later).

                          Well, not quite: You become responsible for your own pension fund, your
                          desk, your computer, your everything. But that's a different story.

                          But let me emphasize it again: Do not even think about using your
                          computer for issuing invoices and receipts. Unless you intend to open a
                          supermarket.

                          Eli

                          --
                          Web: http://www.billauer.co.il
                        • Shlomi Fish
                          ... Assuming I do become a freelancer, I ll need an accountant, that s given. However, I ll still need to be responsible for such things. ... Hmmm... you may
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 28, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Tuesday 18 July 2006 12:43, Chen Shapira wrote:
                            > I've been thinking about becoming independent as well.
                            > I add some of my thoughts below.
                            >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > 1. I'll have to do my own accounting, taxes, etc.
                            > > -------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Not necessarily. One can work with an accountant. It is even
                            > recommended, since I'm not sure if GnuCash covers the Israeli tax laws.
                            >

                            Assuming I do become a freelancer, I'll need an accountant, that's given.
                            However, I'll still need to be responsible for such things.

                            > > 2. I can do what I choose
                            > > -------------------------
                            >
                            > To some extent, this is true. However, you may have to take projects you
                            > prefer not to simply because you need the money, want to get a foot in
                            > the door with a specific client, etc.
                            >
                            > A friend of mine is an independent interior designer and she had to be
                            > back at work few days after giving birth, simply because her clients
                            > needed her and she didn't want to risk them turning to someone else.
                            > This is something employees don't worry about.

                            Hmmm... you may be right.

                            >
                            > > 3. I would need good contacts and publicity
                            > > -------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > I think this is the most difficult point.
                            > It is not enough to be known, you need to be liked as well. People will
                            > hire you only if they think that they'll enjoy working with you. I don't
                            > know of anyone who hired a consultant they didn't like. In fact, the
                            > consultants I know are the nicest people ever.
                            >
                            > Forgive me for being frank, but you have a knack for pissing people off.
                            > I think you can name more than one person who will never ever hire you.
                            > This is not the right direction.

                            I think I'm quite friendly in real life, and only on the Internet I tend to
                            become annoying. However:

                            1. I know many other people who are very pleasant in real-life and on the
                            Internet are trollish.

                            2. Some of the freelancers I know, while being nice and all, also sometimes
                            got angry or behaved in a non-friendly or tactless manner. Maybe it was just
                            to me due to my many faults, but it's still a fact.

                            They still survived.

                            3. I believe that if a person is honest, loves what he is doing and is a
                            professional, then he'll be able to overcome whatever residue he gets due to
                            his Net reputation.

                            4. I'm working on it. :-) It may not come natural to me, but I still think I'm
                            making a lot of progress.

                            > > 4. More time to do the things I like:
                            > > -------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Not sure about this one. Independents tend to be more busy than
                            > employees because in addition to their main job duties, they also need
                            > to do marketing, chase clients and force them to pay, etc.
                            >

                            I see.

                            > > 5. I can see the world:
                            > > -----------------------
                            >
                            > Anything prevents you from going to conferences right now?
                            > The only plus side is that the travel expenses will be tax-deductible.
                            >

                            I don't know. I need to ask permission from my workplace, etc.

                            >
                            > I think you can make a rather good consultant if you can only improve
                            > two things:
                            > 1. People skills. Actively try to be very nice and accommodating. You
                            > tend to annoy many people, and those you annoyed will not hire you.
                            > Don't fool yourself - No matter how good you are, people will not hire
                            > you unless they will enjoy working with you.
                            >
                            > 2. If you want to train people, you'll need to improve your public
                            > speaking skills. I saw you are already working on this.

                            Yes.

                            Regards,

                            Shlomi Fish

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                            Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/

                            Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then
                            destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets.
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