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Re: Offfftopic answer

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  • Evgeny Gesin
    ... You know a lot! ... We? You! :) Evgeny Gesin Javadesk / AllTelescopes
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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      > ...bla-bla-bla...

      You know a lot!

      > are we having fun yet?

      We? You! :)

      Evgeny Gesin
      Javadesk / AllTelescopes
    • guy keren
      ... that s not all. there s a large run-time library that goes with this, with things related to general purpose programming - such as strings manipulation,
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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        On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Evgeny Gesin wrote:

        > > A good explenation of what is J2EE and it's relationship
        > > to Java will be appropriate here I think.
        >
        > Basically Java is made up of:
        >
        > J2SE - Java Standard Edition (standard APIs + GUI)

        that's not all. there's a large run-time library that goes with this, with
        things related to "general purpose" programming - such as strings
        manipulation, data collections, multi-threading primitives, properties
        handling, etc, etc, etc. unlike C++, java is the OS, so it has to supply
        all the things that are normally supplied by the operating system and its
        code libraries.

        > J2EE - Java Enterprise Edition (APIs to work with Enterprise backends,
        > such as databases, emails, etc)

        and the EJB thingi ("enterprise java beans" - not that i am aware of
        non-enterprise java beans...).

        one can go to sun's java web site, and see the APIs available for J2SE and
        the APIs available for J2EE (which is a super-set of J2SE, btw). this is
        all very annoying when you're developing with J2EE (which is, frankly,
        what everyone does unless they work with J2ME, or write java applets,
        perhaps).

        now comes questions such as:

        1. is RMI part of J2SE or J2EE?

        2. is the CORBA intergratoin part of J2SE or J2EE?

        etc.

        > J2ME - Java Micro Edition (APIs to program mobile devices, such phone,
        > PDAs, etc)
        >
        > What about astronomy? Is anyone interested? :)

        if it's about how to hack a small telescope in order to see the moons of
        jupiter, then just shoot.

        are we having fun yet?

        --
        guy

        "For world domination - press 1,
        or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy
      • omer mussaev
        ... J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app lives by itself, but rather is deployed in some kind of application server/container . The server
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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          --- guy keren <choo@...> wrote:

          >
          > On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Evgeny Gesin wrote:
          >
          > > > A good explenation of what is J2EE and it's
          > relationship
          > > > to Java will be appropriate here I think.
          > >
          > > Basically Java is made up of:
          > >
          > > J2SE - Java Standard Edition (standard APIs + GUI)
          >
          > that's not all. there's a large run-time library
          > that goes with this, with
          > things related to "general purpose" programming -
          > such as strings
          > manipulation, data collections, multi-threading
          > primitives, properties
          > handling, etc, etc, etc. unlike C++, java is the OS,
          > so it has to supply
          > all the things that are normally supplied by the
          > operating system and its
          > code libraries.
          >
          > > J2EE - Java Enterprise Edition (APIs to work with
          > Enterprise backends,
          > > such as databases, emails, etc)


          J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app
          lives by itself, but rather is deployed in some kind
          of "application server/container". The "server"
          provides all novel features, such as load balancing,
          "hot-deploying", logging, transactions, centralized
          configuration, falut-tolerance, ease of use and
          web framework. The app itself uses all that features
          as a black box and contains business logic only.

          This kind of technology should appeal to anyone who's
          determined to make one with a lots of data to swallow
          pay a lot for ability to swallow that data fast.


          > and the EJB thingi ("enterprise java beans" - not
          > that i am aware of
          > non-enterprise java beans...).

          Non-enterprise java beans are part of past.
          These were the first attempts to create
          component-based computing. It started with
          the observation that once a component is created,
          it can be self describing as long as it adhers to
          certain interface. Actually, this is quite correct as
          well for certainly non-Java technologies - such as
          ELF.

          These beans were used for self-contained UI widgets.
          These beans are remembered now in Java by "bean
          syntax" which forces one to manipulate attributes by
          setter methods with standartized names -
          setFoo(newFoo)
          and getFoo().

          It's quite amazing to actually meet application that
          was written before all that standartization took place

          - amazing for pretty painful value of amazing.

          > one can go to sun's java web site, and see the APIs
          > available for J2SE and
          > the APIs available for J2EE (which is a super-set of
          > J2SE, btw). this is
          > all very annoying when you're developing with J2EE
          > (which is, frankly,
          > what everyone does unless they work with J2ME, or
          > write java applets,
          > perhaps).
          >
          > now comes questions such as:
          >
          > 1. is RMI part of J2SE or J2EE?

          J2SE.

          >
          > 2. is the CORBA intergratoin part of J2SE or J2EE?

          Ditto.

          > etc.


          A rule of thumb is if you can not pronounce the name
          of a technology, it's J2EE. JMX and JMS are noteworty
          exception.
          >
          > > J2ME - Java Micro Edition (APIs to program mobile
          > devices, such phone,
          > > PDAs, etc)
          > >
          > > What about astronomy? Is anyone interested? :)
          >
          > if it's about how to hack a small telescope in order
          > to see the moons of
          > jupiter, then just shoot.
          >
          > are we having fun yet?

          Kinda.

          I would like still to discuss the dissassembly output
          for PowerPC, if you don't mind....


          > --
          > guy
          >
          > "For world domination - press 1,
          > or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." --
          > nob o. dy
          >


          =====
          --
          o.m.



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        • Tal Rotbart
          Hey Omer, Pretty thorough list, but you forgot: More typical subjects for Hackers-IL: - Shlomi Fish - Metadiscussions about Shlomi Fish - Discussions about
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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            Hey Omer,

            Pretty thorough list, but you forgot:

            More typical subjects for Hackers-IL:
            - Shlomi Fish
            - Metadiscussions about Shlomi Fish
            - Discussions about what is off-topic or not
            - Meta-discussions about whehter discussion about what is off-topic or
            not, is off-topic or not.
            - List of typical subjects for Hackers-IL
            - Literal ways to make any discussion infinitely recursive

            JM2C,
            Tal

            On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:21:59 +0200 (EET), Omer Zak <omerz@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Evgeny Gesin wrote:
            >
            > > Thanks for clarification and sorry.
            > > I stay here for months, but don't understand what is this club for. :)
            >
            > About this point you are totally right.
            > It is very difficult to know what a club (or mailing list) is for when it
            > is quiet for long time.
            >
            > Typical subjects for Hackers-IL:
            > - Managing projects with 10^7 LOC
            > - Lambda calculus
            > - Computations with transfinite numbers
            > - DMCA and similar laws in other countries
            > - Copyright issues not specific to Linux
            > - Reverse engineering of proprietary file formats
            > - Philosophical discussions, which have connection (even if tenous) to
            > software and computers.
            > - Nanotechnology
            > - Interesting hacks
            > etc.
            > etc.
            >
            > DISCLAIMER: the above is my personal opinion. Other participants may
            > disagree with me.
            > --- Omer
            >
            > NOTE: the question of existence of the IGLU Cabal is not on-topic
            > anymore, as it was already discussed from all possible angles in Signature
            > lines of few regular Hackers-IL participants. This is besides the fact
            > that the IGLU Cabal Does Not Exist, and Hamakor officially denies any
            > relationship with the IGLU Cabal.
            >
            > My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
            > They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
            > I may be affiliated in any way.
            > WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            /************************************************

            Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
            Software Wizard

            eMail: redbeard of gmail dot com
            Tel: +972-2-671-6178
            Mobile: +972-52-896-5025

            Snail mail:
            Klozner 7/2
            Jerusalem 93388
            ISRAEL

            ************************************************/
          • Omer Zak
            ... I agree with this. ... Lines Of Code (an old and highly misleading indicator of programmers productivity). ... My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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              On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Chen Shapira wrote:

              > I would also add job related topics like how to find a hacker for your team
              > and how to find work as a hacker. Not as job postings but as discussion of
              > interview questions, CVs, etc.

              I agree with this.

              > > Typical subjects for Hackers-IL:
              > > - Managing projects with 10^7 LOC
              >
              > [Chen Shapira]
              > What's LOC?
              > Googling for it found "Library of Congress" and "Lesbians of Color" among
              > others, but none of these really fit the context :-)

              Lines Of Code (an old and highly misleading indicator of programmers'
              productivity).
              --- Omer
              My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
              They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
              I may be affiliated in any way.
              WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
            • Oleg Goldshmidt
              ... Pardon my ignorance, but as long as we are having this (more on-topic than most) discussion, is all of the above a part of J2EE (i.e. Java the language) or
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                omer mussaev <eomer_mussaev@...> writes:

                > J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app lives by itself,
                > but rather is deployed in some kind of "application
                > server/container". The "server" provides all novel features, such as
                > load balancing, "hot-deploying", logging, transactions, centralized
                > configuration, falut-tolerance, ease of use and web framework. The
                > app itself uses all that features as a black box and contains
                > business logic only.

                Pardon my ignorance, but as long as we are having this (more on-topic
                than most) discussion, is all of the above a part of J2EE (i.e. Java
                the language) or a part of an "application server" or "middleware" or
                whatchamacallit, such as Websphere or Weblogic or Tomcat etc? I
                realize that the watchamacallit may be intended to run J2EE and may be
                written (completely or in part) in Java, but I would still like to
                understand what the case is.

                --
                Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...
              • Tal Rotbart
                Websphere, JBoss, etc. are J2EE containers -- that is they aspire to be a standards-complying (yeah right) implementations of the J2EE specifications designed
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  Websphere, JBoss, etc. are J2EE containers -- that is they aspire to
                  be a standards-complying (yeah right) implementations of the J2EE
                  specifications designed to deploy and run Enterprise Java Beans and
                  web-applications (Servlets/JSP based).

                  So they are both application servers, middleware and a whatchamacallit :)

                  -Tal

                  On 01 Nov 2004 23:54:59 +0000, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > omer mussaev <eomer_mussaev@...> writes:
                  >
                  > > J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app lives by itself,
                  > > but rather is deployed in some kind of "application
                  > > server/container". The "server" provides all novel features, such as
                  > > load balancing, "hot-deploying", logging, transactions, centralized
                  > > configuration, falut-tolerance, ease of use and web framework. The
                  > > app itself uses all that features as a black box and contains
                  > > business logic only.
                  >
                  > Pardon my ignorance, but as long as we are having this (more on-topic
                  > than most) discussion, is all of the above a part of J2EE (i.e. Java
                  > the language) or a part of an "application server" or "middleware" or
                  > whatchamacallit, such as Websphere or Weblogic or Tomcat etc? I
                  > realize that the watchamacallit may be intended to run J2EE and may be
                  > written (completely or in part) in Java, but I would still like to
                  > understand what the case is.
                  >
                  > --
                  > Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  /************************************************

                  Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
                  Software Wizard

                  eMail: redbeard of gmail dot com
                  Tel: +972-2-671-6178
                  Mobile: +972-52-896-5025

                  Snail mail:
                  Klozner 7/2
                  Jerusalem 93388
                  ISRAEL

                  ************************************************/
                • omer mussaev
                  J2EE is not Java the language , but rather set of technologies, standards, conventions, formats and patterns aimed at enterprise data processing , designed
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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                    J2EE is not "Java the language", but rather set of
                    technologies, standards, conventions, formats and
                    patterns aimed at "enterprise data processing",
                    designed and implemented by Sun and using Java.

                    Thus definition of "applicaiton container" is
                    definitely part of J2EE - but not of "Java the
                    language".

                    --- Tal Rotbart <redbeard@...> wrote:

                    > Websphere, JBoss, etc. are J2EE containers -- that
                    > is they aspire to
                    > be a standards-complying (yeah right)
                    > implementations of the J2EE
                    > specifications designed to deploy and run Enterprise
                    > Java Beans and
                    > web-applications (Servlets/JSP based).
                    >
                    > So they are both application servers, middleware and
                    > a whatchamacallit :)
                    >
                    > -Tal
                    >
                    > On 01 Nov 2004 23:54:59 +0000, Oleg Goldshmidt
                    > <pub@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > omer mussaev <eomer_mussaev@...> writes:
                    > >
                    > > > J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app
                    > lives by itself,
                    > > > but rather is deployed in some kind of
                    > "application
                    > > > server/container". The "server" provides all
                    > novel features, such as
                    > > > load balancing, "hot-deploying", logging,
                    > transactions, centralized
                    > > > configuration, falut-tolerance, ease of use and
                    > web framework. The
                    > > > app itself uses all that features as a black box
                    > and contains
                    > > > business logic only.
                    > >
                    > > Pardon my ignorance, but as long as we are having
                    > this (more on-topic
                    > > than most) discussion, is all of the above a part
                    > of J2EE (i.e. Java
                    > > the language) or a part of an "application server"
                    > or "middleware" or
                    > > whatchamacallit, such as Websphere or Weblogic or
                    > Tomcat etc? I
                    > > realize that the watchamacallit may be intended to
                    > run J2EE and may be
                    > > written (completely or in part) in Java, but I
                    > would still like to
                    > > understand what the case is.
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > /************************************************
                    >
                    > Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
                    > Software Wizard
                    >
                    > eMail: redbeard of gmail dot com
                    > Tel: +972-2-671-6178
                    > Mobile: +972-52-896-5025
                    >
                    > Snail mail:
                    > Klozner 7/2
                    > Jerusalem 93388
                    > ISRAEL
                    >
                    > ************************************************/
                    >


                    =====
                    --
                    o.m.



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