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Again offtopic post! (was: Re: [hackers-il] Daniel)

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  • Evgeny Gesin
    ... LOC is Lines Of Code :) Evgeny Gesin Javadesk / AllTelescopes
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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      > What's LOC?

      LOC is Lines Of Code :)

      Evgeny Gesin
      Javadesk / AllTelescopes
    • Muli Ben-Yehuda
      ... Lines of Code. AKA KLoC, Kilo LoC, for the verbose amongst us. Cheers, Muli -- Muli Ben-Yehuda http://www.mulix.org | http://mulix.livejournal.com/
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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        On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 08:46:58PM +0200, Chen Shapira wrote:

        > What's LOC?

        Lines of Code. AKA KLoC, Kilo LoC, for the verbose amongst us.

        Cheers,
        Muli
        --
        Muli Ben-Yehuda
        http://www.mulix.org | http://mulix.livejournal.com/
      • omer mussaev
        TeraLOC for unfortunate enough to write Java... ... name=signature.asc ===== -- o.m. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo!
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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          TeraLOC for unfortunate enough to write Java...

          --- Muli Ben-Yehuda <mulix@...> wrote:

          > On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 08:46:58PM +0200, Chen
          > Shapira wrote:
          >
          > > What's LOC?
          >
          > Lines of Code. AKA KLoC, Kilo LoC, for the verbose
          > amongst us.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Muli
          > --
          > Muli Ben-Yehuda
          > http://www.mulix.org | http://mulix.livejournal.com/
          >
          >

          > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature
          name=signature.asc



          =====
          --
          o.m.



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        • Evgeny Gesin
          ... You know a lot! ... We? You! :) Evgeny Gesin Javadesk / AllTelescopes
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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            > ...bla-bla-bla...

            You know a lot!

            > are we having fun yet?

            We? You! :)

            Evgeny Gesin
            Javadesk / AllTelescopes
          • guy keren
            ... that s not all. there s a large run-time library that goes with this, with things related to general purpose programming - such as strings manipulation,
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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              On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Evgeny Gesin wrote:

              > > A good explenation of what is J2EE and it's relationship
              > > to Java will be appropriate here I think.
              >
              > Basically Java is made up of:
              >
              > J2SE - Java Standard Edition (standard APIs + GUI)

              that's not all. there's a large run-time library that goes with this, with
              things related to "general purpose" programming - such as strings
              manipulation, data collections, multi-threading primitives, properties
              handling, etc, etc, etc. unlike C++, java is the OS, so it has to supply
              all the things that are normally supplied by the operating system and its
              code libraries.

              > J2EE - Java Enterprise Edition (APIs to work with Enterprise backends,
              > such as databases, emails, etc)

              and the EJB thingi ("enterprise java beans" - not that i am aware of
              non-enterprise java beans...).

              one can go to sun's java web site, and see the APIs available for J2SE and
              the APIs available for J2EE (which is a super-set of J2SE, btw). this is
              all very annoying when you're developing with J2EE (which is, frankly,
              what everyone does unless they work with J2ME, or write java applets,
              perhaps).

              now comes questions such as:

              1. is RMI part of J2SE or J2EE?

              2. is the CORBA intergratoin part of J2SE or J2EE?

              etc.

              > J2ME - Java Micro Edition (APIs to program mobile devices, such phone,
              > PDAs, etc)
              >
              > What about astronomy? Is anyone interested? :)

              if it's about how to hack a small telescope in order to see the moons of
              jupiter, then just shoot.

              are we having fun yet?

              --
              guy

              "For world domination - press 1,
              or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy
            • omer mussaev
              ... J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app lives by itself, but rather is deployed in some kind of application server/container . The server
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                --- guy keren <choo@...> wrote:

                >
                > On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Evgeny Gesin wrote:
                >
                > > > A good explenation of what is J2EE and it's
                > relationship
                > > > to Java will be appropriate here I think.
                > >
                > > Basically Java is made up of:
                > >
                > > J2SE - Java Standard Edition (standard APIs + GUI)
                >
                > that's not all. there's a large run-time library
                > that goes with this, with
                > things related to "general purpose" programming -
                > such as strings
                > manipulation, data collections, multi-threading
                > primitives, properties
                > handling, etc, etc, etc. unlike C++, java is the OS,
                > so it has to supply
                > all the things that are normally supplied by the
                > operating system and its
                > code libraries.
                >
                > > J2EE - Java Enterprise Edition (APIs to work with
                > Enterprise backends,
                > > such as databases, emails, etc)


                J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app
                lives by itself, but rather is deployed in some kind
                of "application server/container". The "server"
                provides all novel features, such as load balancing,
                "hot-deploying", logging, transactions, centralized
                configuration, falut-tolerance, ease of use and
                web framework. The app itself uses all that features
                as a black box and contains business logic only.

                This kind of technology should appeal to anyone who's
                determined to make one with a lots of data to swallow
                pay a lot for ability to swallow that data fast.


                > and the EJB thingi ("enterprise java beans" - not
                > that i am aware of
                > non-enterprise java beans...).

                Non-enterprise java beans are part of past.
                These were the first attempts to create
                component-based computing. It started with
                the observation that once a component is created,
                it can be self describing as long as it adhers to
                certain interface. Actually, this is quite correct as
                well for certainly non-Java technologies - such as
                ELF.

                These beans were used for self-contained UI widgets.
                These beans are remembered now in Java by "bean
                syntax" which forces one to manipulate attributes by
                setter methods with standartized names -
                setFoo(newFoo)
                and getFoo().

                It's quite amazing to actually meet application that
                was written before all that standartization took place

                - amazing for pretty painful value of amazing.

                > one can go to sun's java web site, and see the APIs
                > available for J2SE and
                > the APIs available for J2EE (which is a super-set of
                > J2SE, btw). this is
                > all very annoying when you're developing with J2EE
                > (which is, frankly,
                > what everyone does unless they work with J2ME, or
                > write java applets,
                > perhaps).
                >
                > now comes questions such as:
                >
                > 1. is RMI part of J2SE or J2EE?

                J2SE.

                >
                > 2. is the CORBA intergratoin part of J2SE or J2EE?

                Ditto.

                > etc.


                A rule of thumb is if you can not pronounce the name
                of a technology, it's J2EE. JMX and JMS are noteworty
                exception.
                >
                > > J2ME - Java Micro Edition (APIs to program mobile
                > devices, such phone,
                > > PDAs, etc)
                > >
                > > What about astronomy? Is anyone interested? :)
                >
                > if it's about how to hack a small telescope in order
                > to see the moons of
                > jupiter, then just shoot.
                >
                > are we having fun yet?

                Kinda.

                I would like still to discuss the dissassembly output
                for PowerPC, if you don't mind....


                > --
                > guy
                >
                > "For world domination - press 1,
                > or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." --
                > nob o. dy
                >


                =====
                --
                o.m.



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              • Tal Rotbart
                Hey Omer, Pretty thorough list, but you forgot: More typical subjects for Hackers-IL: - Shlomi Fish - Metadiscussions about Shlomi Fish - Discussions about
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  Hey Omer,

                  Pretty thorough list, but you forgot:

                  More typical subjects for Hackers-IL:
                  - Shlomi Fish
                  - Metadiscussions about Shlomi Fish
                  - Discussions about what is off-topic or not
                  - Meta-discussions about whehter discussion about what is off-topic or
                  not, is off-topic or not.
                  - List of typical subjects for Hackers-IL
                  - Literal ways to make any discussion infinitely recursive

                  JM2C,
                  Tal

                  On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:21:59 +0200 (EET), Omer Zak <omerz@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Evgeny Gesin wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thanks for clarification and sorry.
                  > > I stay here for months, but don't understand what is this club for. :)
                  >
                  > About this point you are totally right.
                  > It is very difficult to know what a club (or mailing list) is for when it
                  > is quiet for long time.
                  >
                  > Typical subjects for Hackers-IL:
                  > - Managing projects with 10^7 LOC
                  > - Lambda calculus
                  > - Computations with transfinite numbers
                  > - DMCA and similar laws in other countries
                  > - Copyright issues not specific to Linux
                  > - Reverse engineering of proprietary file formats
                  > - Philosophical discussions, which have connection (even if tenous) to
                  > software and computers.
                  > - Nanotechnology
                  > - Interesting hacks
                  > etc.
                  > etc.
                  >
                  > DISCLAIMER: the above is my personal opinion. Other participants may
                  > disagree with me.
                  > --- Omer
                  >
                  > NOTE: the question of existence of the IGLU Cabal is not on-topic
                  > anymore, as it was already discussed from all possible angles in Signature
                  > lines of few regular Hackers-IL participants. This is besides the fact
                  > that the IGLU Cabal Does Not Exist, and Hamakor officially denies any
                  > relationship with the IGLU Cabal.
                  >
                  > My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
                  > They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
                  > I may be affiliated in any way.
                  > WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  /************************************************

                  Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
                  Software Wizard

                  eMail: redbeard of gmail dot com
                  Tel: +972-2-671-6178
                  Mobile: +972-52-896-5025

                  Snail mail:
                  Klozner 7/2
                  Jerusalem 93388
                  ISRAEL

                  ************************************************/
                • Omer Zak
                  ... I agree with this. ... Lines Of Code (an old and highly misleading indicator of programmers productivity). ... My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                    On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Chen Shapira wrote:

                    > I would also add job related topics like how to find a hacker for your team
                    > and how to find work as a hacker. Not as job postings but as discussion of
                    > interview questions, CVs, etc.

                    I agree with this.

                    > > Typical subjects for Hackers-IL:
                    > > - Managing projects with 10^7 LOC
                    >
                    > [Chen Shapira]
                    > What's LOC?
                    > Googling for it found "Library of Congress" and "Lesbians of Color" among
                    > others, but none of these really fit the context :-)

                    Lines Of Code (an old and highly misleading indicator of programmers'
                    productivity).
                    --- Omer
                    My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
                    They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
                    I may be affiliated in any way.
                    WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
                  • Oleg Goldshmidt
                    ... Pardon my ignorance, but as long as we are having this (more on-topic than most) discussion, is all of the above a part of J2EE (i.e. Java the language) or
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                      omer mussaev <eomer_mussaev@...> writes:

                      > J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app lives by itself,
                      > but rather is deployed in some kind of "application
                      > server/container". The "server" provides all novel features, such as
                      > load balancing, "hot-deploying", logging, transactions, centralized
                      > configuration, falut-tolerance, ease of use and web framework. The
                      > app itself uses all that features as a black box and contains
                      > business logic only.

                      Pardon my ignorance, but as long as we are having this (more on-topic
                      than most) discussion, is all of the above a part of J2EE (i.e. Java
                      the language) or a part of an "application server" or "middleware" or
                      whatchamacallit, such as Websphere or Weblogic or Tomcat etc? I
                      realize that the watchamacallit may be intended to run J2EE and may be
                      written (completely or in part) in Java, but I would still like to
                      understand what the case is.

                      --
                      Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...
                    • Tal Rotbart
                      Websphere, JBoss, etc. are J2EE containers -- that is they aspire to be a standards-complying (yeah right) implementations of the J2EE specifications designed
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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                        Websphere, JBoss, etc. are J2EE containers -- that is they aspire to
                        be a standards-complying (yeah right) implementations of the J2EE
                        specifications designed to deploy and run Enterprise Java Beans and
                        web-applications (Servlets/JSP based).

                        So they are both application servers, middleware and a whatchamacallit :)

                        -Tal

                        On 01 Nov 2004 23:54:59 +0000, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > omer mussaev <eomer_mussaev@...> writes:
                        >
                        > > J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app lives by itself,
                        > > but rather is deployed in some kind of "application
                        > > server/container". The "server" provides all novel features, such as
                        > > load balancing, "hot-deploying", logging, transactions, centralized
                        > > configuration, falut-tolerance, ease of use and web framework. The
                        > > app itself uses all that features as a black box and contains
                        > > business logic only.
                        >
                        > Pardon my ignorance, but as long as we are having this (more on-topic
                        > than most) discussion, is all of the above a part of J2EE (i.e. Java
                        > the language) or a part of an "application server" or "middleware" or
                        > whatchamacallit, such as Websphere or Weblogic or Tomcat etc? I
                        > realize that the watchamacallit may be intended to run J2EE and may be
                        > written (completely or in part) in Java, but I would still like to
                        > understand what the case is.
                        >
                        > --
                        > Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        --
                        /************************************************

                        Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
                        Software Wizard

                        eMail: redbeard of gmail dot com
                        Tel: +972-2-671-6178
                        Mobile: +972-52-896-5025

                        Snail mail:
                        Klozner 7/2
                        Jerusalem 93388
                        ISRAEL

                        ************************************************/
                      • omer mussaev
                        J2EE is not Java the language , but rather set of technologies, standards, conventions, formats and patterns aimed at enterprise data processing , designed
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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                          J2EE is not "Java the language", but rather set of
                          technologies, standards, conventions, formats and
                          patterns aimed at "enterprise data processing",
                          designed and implemented by Sun and using Java.

                          Thus definition of "applicaiton container" is
                          definitely part of J2EE - but not of "Java the
                          language".

                          --- Tal Rotbart <redbeard@...> wrote:

                          > Websphere, JBoss, etc. are J2EE containers -- that
                          > is they aspire to
                          > be a standards-complying (yeah right)
                          > implementations of the J2EE
                          > specifications designed to deploy and run Enterprise
                          > Java Beans and
                          > web-applications (Servlets/JSP based).
                          >
                          > So they are both application servers, middleware and
                          > a whatchamacallit :)
                          >
                          > -Tal
                          >
                          > On 01 Nov 2004 23:54:59 +0000, Oleg Goldshmidt
                          > <pub@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > omer mussaev <eomer_mussaev@...> writes:
                          > >
                          > > > J2EE takes the notion of OS further. No J2EE app
                          > lives by itself,
                          > > > but rather is deployed in some kind of
                          > "application
                          > > > server/container". The "server" provides all
                          > novel features, such as
                          > > > load balancing, "hot-deploying", logging,
                          > transactions, centralized
                          > > > configuration, falut-tolerance, ease of use and
                          > web framework. The
                          > > > app itself uses all that features as a black box
                          > and contains
                          > > > business logic only.
                          > >
                          > > Pardon my ignorance, but as long as we are having
                          > this (more on-topic
                          > > than most) discussion, is all of the above a part
                          > of J2EE (i.e. Java
                          > > the language) or a part of an "application server"
                          > or "middleware" or
                          > > whatchamacallit, such as Websphere or Weblogic or
                          > Tomcat etc? I
                          > > realize that the watchamacallit may be intended to
                          > run J2EE and may be
                          > > written (completely or in part) in Java, but I
                          > would still like to
                          > > understand what the case is.
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > /************************************************
                          >
                          > Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
                          > Software Wizard
                          >
                          > eMail: redbeard of gmail dot com
                          > Tel: +972-2-671-6178
                          > Mobile: +972-52-896-5025
                          >
                          > Snail mail:
                          > Klozner 7/2
                          > Jerusalem 93388
                          > ISRAEL
                          >
                          > ************************************************/
                          >


                          =====
                          --
                          o.m.



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