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The hackers.org.il Domain

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  • Shlomi Fish
    Hi all! I d like to discuss what policy we set for the hackers.org.il domain. Possible things we can do with it are: 1. provide domain names for members
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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      Hi all!

      I'd like to discuss what policy we set for the hackers.org.il domain. Possible
      things we can do with it are:

      1. provide domain names for members (arikb.hackers.org.il,
      mulix.hackers.org.il, etc.) in case someone wants them.

      2. Provide mail accounts (shlomif(at)hackers.org.il, oleg(at)hackers.org.il),
      etc.

      3. Provide homepages at www.hackers.org.il/~omerz/, www.hackers.org.il/~nadav/
      (may be a bit problematic because they have to be on the same server).

      4. Anything else?

      I, on my part, would very much like a shlomif.hackers.org.il domain name,
      because at the moment shlomif.il.eu.org causes a great deal of problems. The
      question is naturally, if anyone feels such services are an abuse of the
      domain name.

      So, voice your opinion.

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish
      --

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

      Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
    • Gabor Szabo
      ... Without any opinion on the other suggestions, AFAIK the best would be for you is to register www.shlomifish.com and use that on some server. Gabor
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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        On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Shlomi Fish wrote:

        > I, on my part, would very much like a shlomif.hackers.org.il domain name,
        > because at the moment shlomif.il.eu.org causes a great deal of problems. The
        > question is naturally, if anyone feels such services are an abuse of the
        > domain name.


        Without any opinion on the other suggestions, AFAIK the best would
        be for you is to register www.shlomifish.com and use that on some server.

        Gabor
      • Omer Zak
        DISCLAIMER: It is easy for me to express this opinion, because I already have my own registered domain name (zak.co.il). Given the disclaimer my opinion is as
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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          DISCLAIMER:
          It is easy for me to express this opinion, because I already have my own
          registered domain name (zak.co.il).

          Given the disclaimer my opinion is as follows:

          0. Do not give people subdomains of hackers.org.il. Too much
          opportunities for abuse, and besides, nowadays, getting a domain name is
          not that prohibitively expensive.

          1. If, however, members are to get subdomain names for Web sites (for
          example, because we want to help people, who cannot afford to pay $60
          for their own domain name registration) - then only under the following
          limitations:
          - as a sub-subdomain name (such as www.shlomif.members.hackers.org.il)
          - no commercial use
          (If you can make money from a domain, you can pay for it, and then thou
          shalt registerth it yourselfth.)
          - After making very sure that a disclaimer that Hackers-IL (as an
          organization) has dictatorical authority and zero responsibility over
          what members are doing in their *.members.hackers.org.il domains.

          2. Members are to arrange for their own hosting deals, and then ask the
          owner of members.hackers.org.il to point their sub-subdomain name at
          their arranged host. Investigate feasibility of using a system like
          dyndns to allow people to use their home computers as their own Web
          hosts even if they do not have fixed IP address. This will give them
          another option for trade-off between bandwidth and web hosting costs.

          3. Any disk space on computers under public control is to be devoted for
          public stuff, such as mirrors of distributions, additional Free Software
          source code packages, archives of relevant mailing lists and forum
          discussions.

          Shlomi Fish wrote:
          > Hi all!
          >
          > I'd like to discuss what policy we set for the hackers.org.il domain. Possible
          > things we can do with it are:
          >
          > 1. provide domain names for members (arikb.hackers.org.il,
          > mulix.hackers.org.il, etc.) in case someone wants them.
          >
          > 2. Provide mail accounts (shlomif(at)hackers.org.il, oleg(at)hackers.org.il),
          > etc.
          >
          > 3. Provide homepages at www.hackers.org.il/~omerz/, www.hackers.org.il/~nadav/
          > (may be a bit problematic because they have to be on the same server).
          >
          > 4. Anything else?
          >
          > I, on my part, would very much like a shlomif.hackers.org.il domain name,
          > because at the moment shlomif.il.eu.org causes a great deal of problems. The
          > question is naturally, if anyone feels such services are an abuse of the
          > domain name.

          --- Omer
          My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/

          My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
          They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
          I may be affiliated in any way.
          WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
        • Arik Baratz
          ... I don t think the intension is to help poor fellas that can t afford their own domain. I think the intention is to have a cool hostname! I am for giving a
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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            On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 12:34:37 +0200, Omer Zak <omerz@...> wrote:

            > 0. Do not give people subdomains of hackers.org.il. Too much
            > opportunities for abuse, and besides, nowadays, getting a domain name is
            > not that prohibitively expensive.
            >
            > 1. If, however, members are to get subdomain names for Web sites (for
            > example, because we want to help people, who cannot afford to pay $60
            > for their own domain name registration) - then only under the following
            > limitations:
            > - as a sub-subdomain name (such as www.shlomif.members.hackers.org.il)
            > - no commercial use
            > (If you can make money from a domain, you can pay for it, and then thou
            > shalt registerth it yourselfth.)
            > - After making very sure that a disclaimer that Hackers-IL (as an
            > organization) has dictatorical authority and zero responsibility over
            > what members are doing in their *.members.hackers.org.il domains.

            I don't think the intension is to help poor fellas that can't afford
            their own domain. I think the intention is to have a cool hostname!

            I am for giving a free <your-name>.hackers.org.il to any hackers-il
            member who wishes it - provided he submits his real (verified) email
            address, real (verified) phone number and real home physical address
            in a database which will be prepared for this purpose, and given to
            law enforcement in case they ask for it and provide a warrent, or used
            to forward take-down notices.

            > 2. Members are to arrange for their own hosting deals, and then ask the
            > owner of members.hackers.org.il to point their sub-subdomain name at
            > their arranged host. Investigate feasibility of using a system like
            > dyndns to allow people to use their home computers as their own Web
            > hosts even if they do not have fixed IP address. This will give them
            > another option for trade-off between bandwidth and web hosting costs.

            I agree. Without this people will just sign up to have free web-hosting.

            > 3. Any disk space on computers under public control is to be devoted for
            > public stuff, such as mirrors of distributions, additional Free Software
            > source code packages, archives of relevant mailing lists and forum
            > discussions.

            Agree.

            -- Arik
          • Tzahi Fadida
            ... Yeah, cool! btw, where is the computer hosted? ... yeah, again very cool. although I ll bet you ll get spam filtered half the time because of the name
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
              > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 11:30 AM
              > To: Hackers-IL
              > Subject: [hackers-il] The hackers.org.il Domain
              >
              >
              > Hi all!
              >
              > I'd like to discuss what policy we set for the hackers.org.il
              > domain. Possible
              > things we can do with it are:
              >
              > 1. provide domain names for members (arikb.hackers.org.il,
              > mulix.hackers.org.il, etc.) in case someone wants them.
              >

              Yeah, cool! btw, where is the computer hosted?

              > 2. Provide mail accounts (shlomif(at)hackers.org.il,
              > oleg(at)hackers.org.il),
              > etc.

              yeah, again very cool. although I'll bet you'll get spam filtered half the
              time
              because of the name hacker. (stupid but true)
              also, I learned that if you want to rely on email you have to consider the
              hosting.

              >
              > 3. Provide homepages at www.hackers.org.il/~omerz/,
              > www.hackers.org.il/~nadav/ (may be a bit problematic because
              > they have to be on the same server).
              >

              if you already giving tzahi.hackers.org.il, why not give virtual hosts and
              be done with it.
              i.e. tzahi.hackers.org.il mulix.hackers.org.il etc on the same
              server(hopefully) without
              too much hassle, no need for more ips, etc...
              give ftp access only and for the time being only allow html processing. i.e.
              no server scripting.
              even more, allow only for personal pages.

              > 4. Anything else?
              >
              > I, on my part, would very much like a shlomif.hackers.org.il
              > domain name,
              > because at the moment shlomif.il.eu.org causes a great deal
              > of problems. The
              > question is naturally, if anyone feels such services are an
              > abuse of the
              > domain name.
              >
              > So, voice your opinion.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Shlomi Fish
              > --
              >
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              > Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/
              >
              > Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
              >
              >
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            • Muli Ben-Yehuda
              ... Who owns hackers.org.il? this endless discussion you keep instigating is quite boring. Let the person who owns it do with it as they please. Cheers, Muli
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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                On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 11:29:58AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote:

                > 1. provide domain names for members (arikb.hackers.org.il,
                > mulix.hackers.org.il, etc.) in case someone wants them.

                Who owns hackers.org.il? this endless discussion you keep instigating
                is quite boring. Let the person who owns it do with it as they please.

                Cheers,
                Muli
                --
                Muli Ben-Yehuda
                http://www.mulix.org | http://mulix.livejournal.com/
              • Adir Abraham
                ... It is arikb who owns it. Adir.
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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                  On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:

                  > On Fri, Oct 01, 2004 at 11:29:58AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                  >
                  > > 1. provide domain names for members (arikb.hackers.org.il,
                  > > mulix.hackers.org.il, etc.) in case someone wants them.
                  >
                  > Who owns hackers.org.il? this endless discussion you keep instigating
                  > is quite boring. Let the person who owns it do with it as they please.

                  It is arikb who owns it.

                  Adir.

                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Muli
                  >
                • Arik Baratz
                  ... I own it. I participate in the discussion. Hence, this discussion is relevant. -- Arik
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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                    On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:30:31 +0200, Muli Ben-Yehuda <mulix@...> wrote:

                    > Who owns hackers.org.il? this endless discussion you keep instigating
                    > is quite boring. Let the person who owns it do with it as they please.

                    I own it. I participate in the discussion. Hence, this discussion is relevant.

                    -- Arik
                  • amos@amos.mailshell.com
                    ... What kind of problems (feel free to reply off-list if it s not a proper topic). Cheers, --Amos
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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                      Shlomi Fish wrote:
                      > I, on my part, would very much like a shlomif.hackers.org.il domain name,
                      > because at the moment shlomif.il.eu.org causes a great deal of problems. The

                      What kind of problems (feel free to reply off-list if it's not a proper
                      topic).

                      Cheers,

                      --Amos
                    • Gadi Evron
                      ... No it isn t, you can do with it as you please. Is this going to become a status symbol to some members, an open service to any new member, or whatever
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 1, 2004
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                        > I own it. I participate in the discussion. Hence, this discussion is relevant.

                        No it isn't, you can do with it as you please. Is this going to become a
                        status symbol to some members, an open service to any new member, or
                        whatever else? Just do with it what *you* want. If anyone wants one,
                        email Arik.

                        I stand by all the above except if the domain was registered as an
                        hackers-il domain, in which case, let's just be elite snobs and deny
                        ourselves the questionable pleasure? :)

                        I don't really see why a discussion of publicly used private property is
                        a good use of Yahoo!'s bandwidth. Allow me to contribute some more
                        though. Take that, Yahoo!:
                        bksgbfbgd\
                        hghfgsgb
                        ihnv ecreh[ougae
                        ;iauhfw;bwrj

                        :o)

                        Gadi.
                      • Arik Baratz
                        ... Gadi, I have long since claimed that I bought it as a contribution to this group. I own it, because Hackers-IL can t own stuff. I will do with it what we
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                          On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 03:10:32 +0200, Gadi Evron <ge@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I own it. I participate in the discussion. Hence, this discussion is relevant.
                          >
                          > No it isn't, you can do with it as you please. Is this going to become a
                          > status symbol to some members, an open service to any new member, or
                          > whatever else? Just do with it what *you* want. If anyone wants one,
                          > email Arik.

                          Gadi,

                          I have long since claimed that I bought it as a contribution to this
                          group. I own it, because Hackers-IL can't own stuff. I will do with it
                          what we decide, in this forum.

                          So it is.

                          > I stand by all the above except if the domain was registered as an
                          > hackers-il domain, in which case, let's just be elite snobs and deny
                          > ourselves the questionable pleasure? :)

                          Oh for crying out loud. Why can't you let us geeks be geeks?

                          > I don't really see why a discussion of publicly used private property is
                          > a good use of Yahoo!'s bandwidth. Allow me to contribute some more

                          ...because it is a public discussion, about a privately owned
                          property, where the owner pledged his willingness to do with this
                          property for the good of the abovementioned public.

                          -- Arik
                        • Shlomi Fish
                          ... Well, just to inform everybody else: eu.org gives free domain names (under the .eu.org domain) to organizations and invidiuals. il.eu.org is one of the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 2, 2004
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                            On Friday 01 October 2004 20:25, amos@... wrote:
                            > Shlomi Fish wrote:
                            > > I, on my part, would very much like a shlomif.hackers.org.il domain name,
                            > > because at the moment shlomif.il.eu.org causes a great deal of problems.
                            > > The
                            >
                            > What kind of problems (feel free to reply off-list if it's not a proper
                            > topic).
                            >

                            Well, just to inform everybody else:

                            eu.org gives free domain names (under the .eu.org domain) to organizations and
                            invidiuals. il.eu.org is one of the domains dedicated to Israeli sub-domains.
                            Now, I registered a domain there to serve as the domain for my home-site.
                            (what used to be http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/). However, there are a
                            few problems:

                            1. It seems the machine hosting the master eu.org domain causes some problems
                            in its DNS lookup.

                            2. il.eu.org is hosted at the Technion's network, which is itself error-prone.

                            As a result many people report the hostname to be unresolvable. This is a bit
                            strange since linuxclub.il.eu.org seems to resolve for everybody. It seems
                            that in Israel, it is mostly OK by now. However, outside Israel, it seems to
                            depend on planetary arrangement. Google seems to be OK with it:

                            http://www.google.com/search?q=shlomi+fish&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

                            (check the third link)

                            And also other people I've asked, but others have reported problems.

                            I realize that I shouldn't look a gift horse by his teeth, but it is still
                            frustrating.

                            Regards,

                            Shlomi Fish

                            --

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                            Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

                            Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                          • Nadav Har'El
                            ... This decision should be entirely with the person who is giving hackers.org.il DNS service. After all, this simply puts more strain on his DNS server, and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 3, 2004
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                              On Fri, Oct 01, 2004, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] The hackers.org.il Domain":
                              > Hi all!
                              >
                              > I'd like to discuss what policy we set for the hackers.org.il domain. Possible
                              > things we can do with it are:
                              >
                              > 1. provide domain names for members (arikb.hackers.org.il,
                              > mulix.hackers.org.il, etc.) in case someone wants them.

                              This decision should be entirely with the person who is giving hackers.org.il
                              DNS service. After all, this simply puts more strain on his DNS server, and
                              also requires his cooperation for actually updating the DNS.

                              If this person (who is he?) agrees, than I don't see a reason why.

                              > 2. Provide mail accounts (shlomif(at)hackers.org.il, oleg(at)hackers.org.il),
                              > etc.

                              Mail forwarding or pop3?

                              In any case, this requires resources (time and bandwidth) from the person
                              who owns the machine to which the MX or hackers.org.il points to. Again,
                              we should ask this person.


                              --
                              Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Oct 3 2004, 18 Tishri 5765
                              nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                              Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |A professor is one who talks in someone
                              http://nadav.harel.org.il |else's sleep.
                            • Arik Baratz
                              ... I m hosting the domain in xname.org, which supply this service for free. I donated some money, if everyone here donates $5 it can really help them. It s up
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 3, 2004
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                                On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:40:02 +0200, Nadav Har'El <nyh@...> wrote:

                                > This decision should be entirely with the person who is giving hackers.org.il
                                > DNS service. After all, this simply puts more strain on his DNS server, and
                                > also requires his cooperation for actually updating the DNS.
                                >
                                > If this person (who is he?) agrees, than I don't see a reason why.

                                I'm hosting the domain in xname.org, which supply this service for
                                free. I donated some money, if everyone here donates $5 it can really
                                help them. It's up to you.

                                > > 2. Provide mail accounts (shlomif(at)hackers.org.il, oleg(at)hackers.org.il),
                                > > etc.
                                >
                                > Mail forwarding or pop3?
                                >
                                > In any case, this requires resources (time and bandwidth) from the person
                                > who owns the machine to which the MX or hackers.org.il points to. Again,
                                > we should ask this person.

                                I'm willing to redirect the MXs to any host which owner claims will do
                                either. It's currently pointed at vipe.technion.ac.il

                                -- Arik
                              • Elad Efrat
                                this has to be one of THE gayest things ever discussed on this list. shlomi, i have to say that you are a fucking retard for asking to start a public service
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
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                                  this has to be one of THE gayest things ever discussed on this list.

                                  shlomi, i have to say that you are a fucking retard for asking to
                                  start a public service just because YOU have dns problems and cant
                                  stablize on something on your own. if you want to start spamming
                                  sites with shlomif@... as email address and look like the
                                  faggot you are, be my guest, but dont spam this mailing list.

                                  ARIK BARATZ ATA KAZE HACKER FOR OWNING HACKERS.ORG.IL CAN I JOIN
                                  YOUR CREW@?#$#??!

                                  please make a new mailing lists for such discussions. you are polluting
                                  my list with linux questions, rfc's about meetings (FOR FUCKS SAKE)
                                  and new website designs and A PUBLIC SUGGESTION TO GIVE SUBDOMAINS AND
                                  EMAIL ADDRESSES ON HACKERS.ORG.IL WHERE THE FUCK IS THIS GOING WHAT
                                  ELSE IS GOING TO HAPPEN HERE?

                                  i really am speechless at this new discussion. i ask all you retards
                                  and linux-il rejects out there to take your discussions to where they
                                  fit and title them properly. I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT FEDORA, LINUX
                                  INSTALLATION PROBLEMS, WHAT PACKAGING SYSTEM IS BETTER, etc.

                                  GET A LIFE!

                                  IM SERIOUS ABOUT THAT GET A LIFE!

                                  and i hate russians btw

                                  fuck you're some gay nerds.
                                • Tzahi Fadida
                                  Is it possible to kick this guy from the list? I think several lines have been crossed here.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
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                                    Is it possible to kick this guy from the list? I think several lines have
                                    been
                                    crossed here.

                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Elad Efrat [mailto:elad@...]
                                    > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 6:45 PM
                                    > To: Hackers-IL
                                    > Subject: Re: [hackers-il] The hackers.org.il Domain
                                  • Arik Baratz
                                    ... Don t feed the trolls. -- Arik
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
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                                      On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:01:04 +0200, Tzahi Fadida <tzahi_ml@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Is it possible to kick this guy from the list? I think several lines have
                                      > been
                                      > crossed here.

                                      Don't feed the trolls.

                                      -- Arik
                                    • Shlomi Fish
                                      ... [Unnecessary swearing snipped] Will the mailing list s administrators please ban this Elad Efrat (elad@bsd.org.il) character from this respectable forum?
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
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                                        On Friday 08 October 2004 18:44, Elad Efrat wrote:
                                        > this has to be one of THE gayest things ever discussed on this list.
                                        >
                                        [Unnecessary swearing snipped]

                                        Will the mailing list's administrators please ban this "Elad
                                        Efrat" (elad@...) character from this respectable forum?

                                        Here are the messages that he wrote so far:

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hackers-il/message/3903 (the one quoted here)

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hackers-il/message/3803 (an attack of me)

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hackers-il/message/3605

                                        ("and i thought you can't get any more gay")

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hackers-il/message/3679

                                        (another random swearing).

                                        I had enough from him.

                                        Regards,

                                        Shlomi Fish

                                        --

                                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                        Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

                                        Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                                      • Tal Rotbart
                                        ... Then just like I suggested to him, please set up a filter to erase his mail from your personal inbox. ... Regards, - Tal R.
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
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                                          On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 20:02:45 +0200, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > [Unnecessary nitpicking snipped]
                                          > I had enough from him.

                                          Then just like I suggested to him, please set up a filter to erase his
                                          mail from your personal inbox.

                                          > Regards,
                                          >
                                          > Shlomi Fish

                                          Regards,
                                          - Tal R.
                                        • Orna Agmon
                                          ... Actually, this is different. Allowing the term gay as an undermining title disrespects the people who tolerate hearing it, just as much as it disrespects
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
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                                            On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Tal Rotbart wrote:
                                            > On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 20:02:45 +0200, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:

                                            > > On Friday 08 October 2004 18:44, Elad Efrat wrote:
                                            > this has to be one of THE gayest things ever discussed on this list.

                                            > > [Unnecessary nitpicking snipped]
                                            > > I had enough from him.
                                            >
                                            > Then just like I suggested to him, please set up a filter to erase his
                                            > mail from your personal inbox.
                                            > Regards,
                                            > - Tal R.

                                            Actually, this is different. Allowing the term "gay" as an undermining
                                            title disrespects the people who tolerate hearing it, just as much as it
                                            disrespects the person using it.

                                            This is not about filtering one's private mailbox, but about creating a
                                            non-hostile environment for upto 10% of the population.

                                            I believe anyone who uses this kind of language should be banned from the
                                            mailing list, if indeed such an operation is possible.

                                            Orna.
                                            --
                                            Orna Agmon http://vipe.stud.technion.ac.il/~ladypine/
                                            ICQ: 348759096
                                          • Arik Baratz
                                            This thread is just troll-food. Stop it, please! -- Arik
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
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                                              This thread is just troll-food. Stop it, please!

                                              -- Arik
                                            • Chen Shapira
                                              Hi Orna and List, I agree that such messages are making the list look worse than YNet talkbacks. Elad s comments are now moderated. ...
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Oct 8, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi Orna and List,

                                                I agree that such messages are making the list look worse than YNet
                                                talkbacks.

                                                Elad's comments are now moderated.

                                                > Actually, this is different. Allowing the term "gay" as an undermining
                                                > title disrespects the people who tolerate hearing it, just as
                                                > much as it
                                                > disrespects the person using it.
                                                >
                                                > This is not about filtering one's private mailbox, but about
                                                > creating a
                                                > non-hostile environment for upto 10% of the population.
                                                >
                                                > I believe anyone who uses this kind of language should be
                                                > banned from the
                                                > mailing list, if indeed such an operation is possible.
                                                >
                                                > Orna.
                                                > --
                                                > Orna Agmon http://vipe.stud.technion.ac.il/~ladypine/
                                                > ICQ: 348759096
                                                >
                                                >
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