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Re: [hackers-il] My Cover Letter for Jobs

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  • Ori Idan
    The only thing I can say about this letter is that it is too long... I tried reading it as I would read it if I was looking for a programmer which I did many
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 16 7:07 AM
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      The only thing I can say about this letter is that it is too long...
      I tried reading it as I would read it if I was looking for a programmer
      which I did many times
      in the past so I have a lot of experience seating at the other side of
      the table... :-)

      You are right that you should put modesty aside when writing such
      letters but not too much.
      Your letter I think is good.
      But...
      Try to think as if you are a team leader looking for a new programmer.
      You get about 10 mails a day only from programmers (I even got 50 a day
      few years ago)
      You are very busy so I assume you wouldn't have read such a long letter.
      The first 5 lines should give the reader an idea what you are looking
      for and thus he/she will know if it worth a while reading it.
      Also keep in mind that in many cases your mail gets to an HR
      lady/gentleman an HR person
      only knows keywords such as PERL, QA, Linux, BSD etc.
      So for example if I am looking to work as a Kernel space Linux
      programmer I would write:

      "I am looking for a job as a Linux kernel programmer, I am an experience
      programmer in
      C/C++ Perl, Assembly, I have written several device drivers for use in
      analog measuremnt systems, in addition I have help bringing up Linux on
      various embedded based on x86 and PPC."


      These where 3 lines that can give a little idea who the guy is, after
      that a little more details should come such as Open Source projects you
      are contributing too etc.
      I would limit myself to up to 20 lines.

      --
      Ori Idan

      Shlomi Fish wrote:

      >Hi!
      >
      >Recently, a very attractive job offer came into my attention. I decided that I
      >really want it, and so took the time to write a nice cover letter about
      >myself to send with the E-mail containing the Resume/s. I'd like to get your
      >comments about it: what I should add? What I should remove? What I should
      >edit? Note that it is directed at a certain type of job, which I'd like to
      >work at.
      >
      >Here it is:
      >
      ><<<
      >I am a very experienced programmer, who's been programming since 1987 (when I
      >was 10 years) old. Throughout the time I've dabbled with DOS, Windows-16,
      >Win32, Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris. Before enrolling in the Technion, I
      >worked in three workplaces, all very different and rewarding. (details about
      >that in my C.V.). I worked in one Win3.11 environment, one mixed UNIX and
      >Win95 one, and one Win95/98, and have plenty of experience in Windows
      >development. I have graduated from the Technion in Electrical Engineering
      >(cum laude) recently and am now looking for a job.
      >
      >I am a very active user, developer, writer, advocate and activist of
      >open-source technologies. My most successful individual project so far has
      >been Freecell Solver, which is an ANSI C library for solving games of
      >Freecell and other variants of Card Solitaire. Throughout its programming I
      >learned a lot about C programming, optimization, data-structures and
      >complexity, algorithms, user-interface design, GNU Autoconf/Automake/Libtool,
      >refactoring. As a result, I am much less dumber than I was when I started
      >it. ;-)
      >
      >I also developed other, more minor, but still useful, projects. Lately I've
      >been contributing to large-scale international projects which I found
      >important. I wrote some patches to Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/)
      >and the GIMP, and also made the Perl 5 documentation more user-friendly.
      >Aside from that there's also a lot of added experience of fixing simple bugs,
      >which I ran into, or writing programs for my own use. I like to code for fun.
      >
      >I'm actively using Mandrake Linux 10.0 at home, and upgrade it whenever a new
      >stable version comes out. I also selectively upgrade packages or programs
      >from RPM or SRPM or from source. Many times, I stayed on the bleeding edge of
      >many programs. (I'm using it to write this E-mail as I speak)
      >
      >As a contributor of documentation, I started several popular web-sites:
      >http://better-scm.berlios.de/
      >http://perl-begin.berlios.de/
      >
      >and gave various presentations to various local clubs:
      >
      >http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/
      >
      >As an activist, I am an active member of many online mailing lists and forums,
      >a registered Member of Hamakor, the Israeli NPO for Free Software and Open
      >Source Code, and formed several mailing lists of my own.
      >
      >As an advocate, I recomendded using various software or technologies to
      >friends and acquaintances, helped them learn or debug them, and also wrote
      >various essays and documents about open-source.
      >
      >More information about all this is accessible from my homepage:
      >
      >http://shlomif.il.eu.org/
      >
      >
      >
      >Please respond to the list (I won't be offended). If this seems like a
      >hyperbole to you, you should note that modesty is one quality that you should
      >temporarily weaken when writing a cover letter.
      >
      >Regards,
      >
      > Shlomi Fish
      >
      >
      >
    • Shlomi Fish
      ... Yes, my phrasing was similar to this. ... Thanks! ... Right. ... You are right of course. ... That would be a good idea. ... Hmmm.. that s only four times
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 16 7:45 AM
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        On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:07, Ori Idan wrote:
        > The only thing I can say about this letter is that it is too long...
        > I tried reading it as I would read it if I was looking for a programmer
        > which I did many times
        > in the past so I have a lot of experience seating at the other side of
        > the table... :-)
        >
        > You are right that you should put modesty aside when writing such
        > letters but not too much.

        Yes, my phrasing was similar to this.

        > Your letter I think is good.

        Thanks!

        > But...
        > Try to think as if you are a team leader looking for a new programmer.
        > You get about 10 mails a day only from programmers (I even got 50 a day
        > few years ago)
        > You are very busy so I assume you wouldn't have read such a long letter.

        Right.

        > The first 5 lines should give the reader an idea what you are looking
        > for and thus he/she will know if it worth a while reading it.

        You are right of course.

        > Also keep in mind that in many cases your mail gets to an HR
        > lady/gentleman an HR person
        > only knows keywords such as PERL, QA, Linux, BSD etc.
        > So for example if I am looking to work as a Kernel space Linux
        > programmer I would write:
        >
        > "I am looking for a job as a Linux kernel programmer, I am an experience
        > programmer in
        > C/C++ Perl, Assembly, I have written several device drivers for use in
        > analog measuremnt systems, in addition I have help bringing up Linux on
        > various embedded based on x86 and PPC."
        >

        That would be a good idea.

        >
        > These where 3 lines that can give a little idea who the guy is, after
        > that a little more details should come such as Open Source projects you
        > are contributing too etc.
        > I would limit myself to up to 20 lines.

        Hmmm.. that's only four times the opening paragraph. But I think I can manage.
        I'll see what I'm going to do.

        Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

        --

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

        Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
      • Tal Rotbart
        Hey Shlomi, Firstly, take note that HR departments are getting SOOO many fucking CVs in the eMail and Fax that they only look at the CVs for about 5 seconds
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 16 11:03 AM
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          Hey Shlomi,

          Firstly, take note that HR departments are getting SOOO many fucking
          CVs in the eMail and Fax that they only look at the CVs for about 5
          seconds before deciding if to discard them (the quick reject pile) or
          keep them in the processing pile.

          Secondly, you have a much better chance of your CV being viewed by
          sending it as a Fax and not as an eMail. I've seen my former
          employer's HR department, and I know what happens to a CV when it
          takes just a tad too long to load in Word. i.e. "Whoops, eMail
          accidently deleted. Oh well, the Internet is so unreliable."

          Thirdly, make sure your cover letter is short, printed in large fonts
          and contains upper case versions of the buzz-words relevant to the
          position.

          Good luck with the job!

          Tal

          On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:33:41 +0300, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
          > Hi!
          >
          > Recently, a very attractive job offer came into my attention. I decided that I
          > really want it, and so took the time to write a nice cover letter about
          > myself to send with the E-mail containing the Resume/s. I'd like to get your
          > comments about it: what I should add? What I should remove? What I should
          > edit? Note that it is directed at a certain type of job, which I'd like to
          > work at.
          >
          > Here it is:
          >
          > <<<
          > I am a very experienced programmer, who's been programming since 1987 (when I
          > was 10 years) old. Throughout the time I've dabbled with DOS, Windows-16,
          > Win32, Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris. Before enrolling in the Technion, I
          > worked in three workplaces, all very different and rewarding. (details about
          > that in my C.V.). I worked in one Win3.11 environment, one mixed UNIX and
          > Win95 one, and one Win95/98, and have plenty of experience in Windows
          > development. I have graduated from the Technion in Electrical Engineering
          > (cum laude) recently and am now looking for a job.
          >
          > I am a very active user, developer, writer, advocate and activist of
          > open-source technologies. My most successful individual project so far has
          > been Freecell Solver, which is an ANSI C library for solving games of
          > Freecell and other variants of Card Solitaire. Throughout its programming I
          > learned a lot about C programming, optimization, data-structures and
          > complexity, algorithms, user-interface design, GNU Autoconf/Automake/Libtool,
          > refactoring. As a result, I am much less dumber than I was when I started
          > it. ;-)
          >
          > I also developed other, more minor, but still useful, projects. Lately I've
          > been contributing to large-scale international projects which I found
          > important. I wrote some patches to Subversion (http://subversion.tigris.org/)
          > and the GIMP, and also made the Perl 5 documentation more user-friendly.
          > Aside from that there's also a lot of added experience of fixing simple bugs,
          > which I ran into, or writing programs for my own use. I like to code for fun.
          >
          > I'm actively using Mandrake Linux 10.0 at home, and upgrade it whenever a new
          > stable version comes out. I also selectively upgrade packages or programs
          > from RPM or SRPM or from source. Many times, I stayed on the bleeding edge of
          > many programs. (I'm using it to write this E-mail as I speak)
          >
          > As a contributor of documentation, I started several popular web-sites:
          > http://better-scm.berlios.de/
          > http://perl-begin.berlios.de/
          >
          > and gave various presentations to various local clubs:
          >
          > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/
          >
          > As an activist, I am an active member of many online mailing lists and forums,
          > a registered Member of Hamakor, the Israeli NPO for Free Software and Open
          > Source Code, and formed several mailing lists of my own.
          >
          > As an advocate, I recomendded using various software or technologies to
          > friends and acquaintances, helped them learn or debug them, and also wrote
          > various essays and documents about open-source.
          >
          > More information about all this is accessible from my homepage:
          >
          > http://shlomif.il.eu.org/
          > >>>
          >
          > Please respond to the list (I won't be offended). If this seems like a
          > hyperbole to you, you should note that modesty is one quality that you should
          > temporarily weaken when writing a cover letter.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Shlomi Fish
          >
          > --
          >
          > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          > Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/
          >
          > Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          --
          /************************************************

          Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
          Software Wizard

          eMail: redbeard of gmail dot com
          Tel: +972-2-671-6178
          Mobile: +972-52-896-5025

          Snail mail:
          Klozner 7/2
          Jerusalem 93388
          ISRAEL

          ************************************************/
        • Arik Baratz
          ... [rest deleted] Hi Shlomi, all Take a look at: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ResumeRead.html (Yes I know you probably read it, Shlomi, just in case
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 16 1:55 PM
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            On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:33:41 +0300, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:

            > I am a very experienced programmer, who's been programming since 1987 (when I
            [rest deleted]

            Hi Shlomi, all

            Take a look at:

            http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ResumeRead.html

            (Yes I know you probably read it, Shlomi, just in case someone wants
            to refer to it)

            I think your cover page is way too long. Shorten every paragraph to
            one sentence and you'll do fine. If I had to read such a cover page
            I'd just skip it and flip ahead to the resume.

            >>>draft below

            Dear x,

            I am a very experienced programmer, since 1987. I had a chance to work
            in many, diverse environments. I have graduated from the Technion in
            Electrical Engineering (cum laude) recently and am now looking for a
            job.

            I am a very active user, developer, writer, advocate and activist of
            open-source technologies, and I have develped small to medium-sized
            projects from scratch. Lately I've been contributing to large-scale
            international projects which I found important, like Subversion, GIMP
            and Perl 5's documentation. I've given several presentations in
            various local clubs, and I'm active in many online lists and forums,
            as well as a member of Hamakor.

            I use Linux at home, and I like to code for fun.

            More information about myself, code and documentation I've written,
            links to project sites I have created and my lecture notes are
            accesssible from my homepage:

            http://shlomif.il.eu.org/
            >>>end of draft

            -- Arik
          • Shlomi Fish
            ... I read it yes. ... Hi Arik! Thanks for writing the revised cover letter for me. (:-)) I think I can use it as a basis with some modifications. Thanks
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 16 9:34 PM
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              On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:55, Arik Baratz wrote:
              > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:33:41 +0300, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
              > > I am a very experienced programmer, who's been programming since 1987
              > > (when I
              >
              > [rest deleted]
              >
              > Hi Shlomi, all
              >
              > Take a look at:
              >
              > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ResumeRead.html
              >
              > (Yes I know you probably read it, Shlomi, just in case someone wants
              > to refer to it)
              >

              I read it yes.

              > I think your cover page is way too long. Shorten every paragraph to
              > one sentence and you'll do fine. If I had to read such a cover page
              > I'd just skip it and flip ahead to the resume.
              >

              Hi Arik! Thanks for writing the revised cover letter for me. (:-)) I think I
              can use it as a basis with some modifications.

              Thanks again!

              [snipped]

              Regards,

              Shlomi Fish

              --

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------
              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

              Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
            • Shlomi Fish
              ... Right. ... Hmmm... faxes are Evil (with a capital E). I haven t configured the modem in my Linux workstation yet. (and am not sure I can because it may be
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 16 9:38 PM
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                On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:03, Tal Rotbart wrote:
                > Hey Shlomi,
                >
                > Firstly, take note that HR departments are getting SOOO many fucking
                > CVs in the eMail and Fax that they only look at the CVs for about 5
                > seconds before deciding if to discard them (the quick reject pile) or
                > keep them in the processing pile.
                >

                Right.

                > Secondly, you have a much better chance of your CV being viewed by
                > sending it as a Fax and not as an eMail.

                Hmmm... faxes are Evil (with a capital E). I haven't configured the modem in
                my Linux workstation yet. (and am not sure I can because it may be a
                winmodem) A service like fixfax.co.il would be ideal, because then I can send
                the faxes through the Internet. Hopefully, my father will let me register.
                Recently, he has been overly cheap, trying to save on computer resources. He
                probably haven't read the Joel Test. ("do you have the best equipment money
                can buy?")

                > I've seen my former
                > employer's HR department, and I know what happens to a CV when it
                > takes just a tad too long to load in Word. i.e. "Whoops, eMail
                > accidently deleted. Oh well, the Internet is so unreliable."
                >

                My CV is very short, with very little formatting, and loads in a snap. There's
                also a short PDF.

                > Thirdly, make sure your cover letter is short, printed in large fonts
                > and contains upper case versions of the buzz-words relevant to the
                > position.
                >

                Good suggestion.

                > Good luck with the job!
                >

                Thanks!

                Regards,

                Shlomi Fish

                --

                ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

                Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
              • Nadav Har'El
                ... If I was your father, I wouldn t let you register to fixfax. Fixfax are slimy spammers... -- Nadav Har El | Tuesday, Aug 17
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 17 4:08 AM
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                  On Tue, Aug 17, 2004, Shlomi Fish wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] My Cover Letter for Jobs":
                  > winmodem) A service like fixfax.co.il would be ideal, because then I can send
                  > the faxes through the Internet. Hopefully, my father will let me register.

                  If I was your father, I wouldn't let you register to fixfax. Fixfax are slimy
                  spammers...


                  --
                  Nadav Har'El | Tuesday, Aug 17 2004, 30 Av 5764
                  nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                  Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |If you're looking for a helping hand,
                  http://nadav.harel.org.il |look first at the end of your arm.
                • Evgeny Gesin
                  Not all employers allow employees to share knowledge in free communities or spend paid time in activities not relative to the company s business. If so, you
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 17 4:46 AM
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                    Not all employers allow employees to share knowledge in free
                    communities or spend paid time in activities not relative to the
                    company's business. If so, you may need to delete from the letter
                    about free contributions and funny stuff.

                    Also, unless you want to apply for a job in startup or similar
                    risk-unclear incubator, you can consider to remove text about your
                    children programming age.

                    That's first what come in mind.
                    I think this is my first post here. Hello Tal.. :)

                    Evgeny Gesin
                    Javadesk Owner
                  • Shlomi Fish
                    ... The thing is: I don t want to be employed at such places. Workplaces that are secretive and don t allow people to tell some elementary things about what
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 17 5:15 AM
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                      On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:46, Evgeny Gesin wrote:
                      > Not all employers allow employees to share knowledge in free
                      > communities or spend paid time in activities not relative to the
                      > company's business. If so, you may need to delete from the letter
                      > about free contributions and funny stuff.
                      >

                      The thing is: I don't want to be employed at such places. Workplaces that are
                      secretive and don't allow people to tell some elementary things about what
                      they are doing or did at their workplace, are not good for me, because I like
                      to tell what I did and what I learned.

                      Workplaces that frown upon their workers being active in the free software
                      community are also not my ideal workplace. I am proud of being a free
                      software hacker, and also do not want to isolate myself from the community
                      completely because of a job. I'm not saying I'm going to spend all the time
                      in my job hacking on open-source code, but I want to be able to do it when I
                      get home.

                      Many workplaces are impressed by involvement in the community. These are the
                      workplaces I'd like to be in. While I may be able to tolerate working on
                      Windows, or hacking on proprietary, marketplace software, I certainly don't
                      want my open-source past and present to be frowned upon.

                      For other ideas like this, refer to:

                      http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html

                      > Also, unless you want to apply for a job in startup or similar
                      > risk-unclear incubator, you can consider to remove text about your
                      > children programming age.
                      >

                      That may be true. Still, I did program starting at the age of 10. But of
                      course, it's meaningless, because many good programmers started much later.
                      My friend and I once discussed the fact that some programmers are better
                      after 1 year of experience, than many (or most?) are after 10.

                      In one of the software houses I worked in before I enrolled in the Technion
                      (the last one, actually), I was considered the resident jack-of-all-trades,
                      because I knew about so many different computer technologies. We were
                      developing a soundcard-turned-into-software-based-modem and so it proved very
                      helpful. I really enjoyed working there.

                      Regards,

                      Shlomi Fish

                      --

                      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                      Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

                      Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                    • Omer Zak
                      ... Tsk tsk... Before cellular phones and the Internet took over, FAXes were the principal method used by the deaf in Israel for utilizing the phone network
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 17 10:36 AM
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                        Shlomi Fish wrote:
                        > Hmmm... faxes are Evil (with a capital E).

                        Tsk tsk...

                        Before cellular phones and the Internet took over, FAXes were the
                        principal method used by the deaf in Israel for utilizing the phone
                        network for communications. The percentage of FAX ownership among the
                        deaf is still much higher than the percentage in the general population.

                        --- Omer
                        My own blog is at http://www.livejournal.com/users/tddpirate/

                        My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
                        They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
                        I may be affiliated in any way.
                        WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
                      • Shlomi Fish
                        ... Well, I was referring to faxes _now_, when there s already E-mail. E-mail, being text and all, is more accessible, more user-friendly and less costy than
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 17 12:43 PM
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                          On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:36, Omer Zak wrote:
                          > Shlomi Fish wrote:
                          > > Hmmm... faxes are Evil (with a capital E).
                          >
                          > Tsk tsk...
                          >
                          > Before cellular phones and the Internet took over, FAXes were the
                          > principal method used by the deaf in Israel for utilizing the phone
                          > network for communications. The percentage of FAX ownership among the
                          > deaf is still much higher than the percentage in the general population.
                          >

                          Well, I was referring to faxes _now_, when there's already E-mail. E-mail,
                          being text and all, is more accessible, more user-friendly and less costy
                          than Faxes. E-mail can be read by everyone, even people who are both deaf and
                          blind. E-mail can also be saved for later use, while faxes are a mess to
                          manage. And you can always scan images and send them as attachments. I think
                          it's one case where one technology has mostly superceded the other one. I
                          could prove to be wrong, and faxes may not diminish in significance or find a
                          newfound age. Or there could be Internet faxes, that send it over the
                          Internet.

                          Historically, faxes were very nice. But historically horses were an efficient
                          means of transportation, and people wrote on clay tablets, papyrus and hide,
                          and food had to be dehydrated to be preserved. But to quote Ovid:

                          <<<
                          Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these.
                          >>>

                          And Ovid lived from 43 B.C. - 18 A.D., so what he says is much more truer in
                          2004.

                          Regards,

                          Shlomi Fish

                          --

                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                          Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

                          Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                        • Tal Rotbart
                          [snipped] ... Hey Evgeny, welcome to Hackers-IL. Enjoy, Tal -- /************************************************ Tal redbeard Rotbart Software Wizard eMail:
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 17 2:05 PM
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                            [snipped]
                            > I think this is my first post here. Hello Tal.. :)
                            Hey Evgeny, welcome to Hackers-IL.

                            Enjoy,
                            Tal

                            --
                            /************************************************

                            Tal 'redbeard' Rotbart
                            Software Wizard

                            eMail: redbeard of gmail dot com
                            Tel: +972-2-671-6178
                            Mobile: +972-52-896-5025

                            Snail mail:
                            Klozner 7/2
                            Jerusalem 93388
                            ISRAEL

                            ************************************************/
                          • Omer Zak
                            Hello Shlomi, I don t remember seeing references to horse&buggy or clay tablets as evil . Granted, they were obsoleted by other technologies, but this didn t
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 18 2:09 AM
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                              Hello Shlomi,
                              I don't remember seeing references to horse&buggy or clay tablets as "evil".
                              Granted, they were obsoleted by other technologies, but this didn't make
                              them "evil".
                              --- Omer

                              Shlomi Fish wrote:
                              > On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:36, Omer Zak wrote:
                              >
                              >>Shlomi Fish wrote:
                              >>
                              >>>Hmmm... faxes are Evil (with a capital E).
                              >>
                              >>Tsk tsk...
                              >>
                              >>Before cellular phones and the Internet took over, FAXes were the
                              >>principal method used by the deaf in Israel for utilizing the phone
                              >>network for communications. The percentage of FAX ownership among the
                              >>deaf is still much higher than the percentage in the general population.
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              > Well, I was referring to faxes _now_, when there's already E-mail. E-mail,
                              > being text and all, is more accessible, more user-friendly and less costy
                              > than Faxes. E-mail can be read by everyone, even people who are both deaf and
                              > blind. E-mail can also be saved for later use, while faxes are a mess to
                              > manage. And you can always scan images and send them as attachments. I think
                              > it's one case where one technology has mostly superceded the other one. I
                              > could prove to be wrong, and faxes may not diminish in significance or find a
                              > newfound age. Or there could be Internet faxes, that send it over the
                              > Internet.
                              >
                              > Historically, faxes were very nice. But historically horses were an efficient
                              > means of transportation, and people wrote on clay tablets, papyrus and hide,
                              > and food had to be dehydrated to be preserved. But to quote Ovid:
                              >
                              > <<<
                              > Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these.
                              >
                              >
                              > And Ovid lived from 43 B.C. - 18 A.D., so what he says is much more truer in
                              > 2004.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > Shlomi Fish
                              >
                            • Shlomi Fish
                              ... Well, whatever. In any case, I think the people who lived in the transition between these technologies to something better did consider them as a
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 18 4:57 AM
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                                On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:09, Omer Zak wrote:
                                > Hello Shlomi,
                                > I don't remember seeing references to horse&buggy or clay tablets as
                                > "evil". Granted, they were obsoleted by other technologies, but this didn't
                                > make them "evil".

                                <sigh />

                                Well, whatever. In any case, I think the people who lived in the transition
                                between these technologies to something better did consider them as a thing
                                of a past.

                                Please don't take the word "Evil" as issued by hackers too seriously. What I
                                meant was just that it was superceded by something else. I think BASIC is
                                Evil and stupid, but having learned how to program in it, I still have fond
                                memories of it.

                                Regards,

                                Shlomi Fish

                                There is no IGLU Cabal! At the year 2450, all the IGLU Cabal were superceded
                                by something else. This has made the people of the year 2480 consider IGLU
                                Cabals as redundant and Evil.

                                --

                                ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

                                Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
                              • Shlomi Fish
                                ... I second that. Welcome Evgeny! Regards, Shlomi Fish ... -- ... Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/ Knuth is not
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 18 5:13 AM
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                                  On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 00:05, Tal Rotbart wrote:
                                  > [snipped]
                                  >
                                  > > I think this is my first post here. Hello Tal.. :)
                                  >
                                  > Hey Evgeny, welcome to Hackers-IL.
                                  >

                                  I second that. Welcome Evgeny!

                                  Regards,

                                  Shlomi Fish

                                  > Enjoy,
                                  > Tal

                                  --

                                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                  Homepage: http://shlomif.il.eu.org/

                                  Knuth is not God! It took him two days to build the Roman Empire.
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