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Description of Hackers-IL - Part I

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  • Shlomi Fish
    Hi! In response to Shachar s response I hacked together a wordy description of what Hackers-IL is all about. I did my best to word it accurately, and also run
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 6, 2004
      Hi!

      In response to Shachar's response I hacked together a wordy description of
      what Hackers-IL is all about. I did my best to word it accurately, and also
      run aspell on it, but still spelling errors, grammatical errors, and
      inaccuracies may be lurking here.

      Please read it (it's included below) and comment on it. If you think anything
      should be modified, just let me know. Remember that it will be:

      1. Sent to the beak's admins in trying to convince them to host hackers.org.il
      there.

      2. Will be used and maintained more permanently as the charter of this mailing
      list.

      Note to self and everyone: I forgot to mention that discussions of
      philsophical/politcal subjects with no relation to science and technology are
      off-topic here. Well, I'll add it, but better release early and release
      often, I say.

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish


      ==================================================================

      Hacker, n.:


      1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how
      to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn
      only the minimum necessary. RFC1392, the Internet Users' Glossary, usefully
      amplifies this as: A person who delights in having an intimate understanding
      of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in
      particular.

      2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys
      programming rather than just theorizing about programming.

      6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy hacker, for
      example.

      7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or
      circumventing limitations.

      (from the Jargon File - http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/)

      What is Hackers-IL?
      -------------------

      Hackers-IL are a group of computer enthusiasts who enjoy intelligently
      discussing creative programming and other branches of science and technology
      . Our discussions tend to be a bit "philosophical" in nature,
      trying to reach conclusions for things that are debatable or controversial,
      and trying.

      Note: From now until forever: we are by no means computer intruders! While
      some
      of us are knowledgeable in security, discovering security holes, writing and
      utilizing exploits, and even are capable of intruding into non-secure systems
      - we do not sanction the unauthorized invasion of the networked property
      of others, much less sabotaging it.

      The "Hackers" part in "Hackers-IL" means the more traditional and original
      meaning of hackers, not the media perpetuated one.

      Who are the members of Hackers-IL?
      ----------------------------------

      It would be a good generalization to say that most of the active members
      are Windows-bashing UNIX and Linux enthusiasts. Nevertheless, we do accept
      Windows hackers, including those who actually like it, as long as
      they do not bash UNIX irrationally for non-issues. And naturally, developers
      of more exotic operating systems, are also more than welcome. We could always
      use more diversity.

      We are mostly educated people. Most of us have a high school education, some
      of us are still college students, and others have a B.A., B.Sc., M.Sc. or
      even a Ph.D. We would accept even K-12 children, but cannot guarantee that
      our content would be "child-safe" in the pornographic sense. While, we do
      not post hard-core pornography or have overt discussions about sexual matters
      (nor do we sanction them), we may actually say things that hint or mention
      them.

      What are the topics of discussions?
      -----------------------------------

      We have a wide range of discussion topics: history of computing and
      technology;
      various programming languages; software management; high education in Israel
      and elsewhere; new thought-provoking articles that were published by various
      persons on the Internet; computer or science humour; the various facets of the
      open-source world; operating systems; famous or not-so-famous books; and
      the list goes on.

      What we are not is a help-desk. We do not tell people how to write their
      homework, or how to X and Y in Foolang or Barware. There are many other
      specialized forums on the Net that can help you with it: we are not the
      place for it. While we do discuss design issues in existing programs, or
      mention such techniques, we are not going to write your code for you.

      How is Hackers-IL affiliated with Israel?
      -----------------------------------------

      The IL in Hackers-IL is the country code of Israel. Nevertheless, the
      discussions in Hackers-IL are entirely in English in the ASCII character
      set. Sometimes we use UTF-8 or iso8859-8 if there is a good need, but it's
      the exception rather than the rule.

      We are affiliated with Israel in the sense that most of us are living in
      Israel, interested in it, visited it, are Jews, etc. That does not mean
      we do not accept foreigners and/or gentiles into the mailing list. We do,
      and we do not pre-discriminate against anybody. However, we hold ourselves
      some "Israeli-oriented" rights like transliterating Hebrew phrases inside
      the English, translating idioms from Hebrew to English without looking for
      an English equivalent, linking to Israeli or Hebrew articles, discussing
      current Israeli affairs (usually with a universal lesson), etc.

      Most of are discussions are entirely universal, though. If you still don't
      like it, feel free to start Hackers-Foovile or Hackers-Llewelynland. We will
      gladly link to you.

      What are the technical resources of Hackers-IL?
      -----------------------------------------------

      At the moment, most of the action takes place in a mailing list, hosted on
      Yahoo Groups. Yahoo Groups (and previously eGroups) offer a very good service.
      However, its commercialism and the fact that Yahoo is trying to save money
      on it on expense of its users, leaves us with three choices of accepting the
      Status Quo, paying them to relieve the limitations, or moving the mailing list
      to our own domain.

      While we have nothing against paying Yahoo Groups to get premium service (such
      good services can cost money an rightfully so), we wish to move the mailing
      list to our own domain (hackers.org.il) where we will have more opportunities
      for growing the community and more fun taking it into the next phase of
      advancement. We are hackers after all, and as such have resources at our
      disposal to accommodate for our Internet services, and wish to host it
      ourselves.

      After the domain is set up, we plan to establish a web-site with some
      information about us, links and a world-editable Wiki. Hopefully, the web-site
      will be active as well, publicize our list, and span a culture of its own.

      We also have several ideas for other mailing lists to complement hackers-il.
      Some ideas are mailing lists for code snippets, mailing lists for
      collaborating on contributions to open source code, an actual help desk for
      general computer
      help, etc.

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

      I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
      I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
    • Arik Baratz
      Hi Shlomi I think you are too verbose, and you are going into places you better stay out of (jews vs. gentiles? come on). I d take each of your paragraphs
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 6, 2004
        Hi Shlomi

        I think you are too verbose, and you are going into places you better
        stay out of (jews vs. gentiles? come on). I'd take each of your
        paragraphs (sans the Hacker jargon definition) and derive a single
        sentence from it. I suggest the following charter:

        >>>

        Hackers-IL is a mailing list for computer enthusiasts who enjoy
        intelligently discussing creative programming and other branches of
        science and technology. We do not sanction nor encourage illegal
        activity. The group comprises mostly of educated persons, but is not
        limited to such.

        There is no limit on the language used, but the members have a good
        sense of internet etiquette and foul language is only heard in extreme
        cases. We do not eforce correct latin pluralii.

        The topics of discussion include and revolve around computers,
        technology, the internet, OS/FS, books. Offtopic discussions include
        helpdesk questions, help in obtaining illegal access to computer systems
        and getting even with your ex-something by sending them viruses.

        Hackers-IL relates to Israel in the sense that most members bear some
        relationship to Israel. While the formal language of the mailing list is
        English, there will be instances where we will write parts of a message
        in Hebrew, if it can contribute to the discussion. We will link to
        Israel-related and Hebrew articles, and discuss topics which are of
        special interest to Israelis.

        We accept members regardless of their nationality, religion, sex, etc.
        The list admins maintain the right to kick out a subscriber that posts
        offending and defamatory messages to the list. Only list members may
        post to the list.

        Messages to the list should be text-only and should use the UTF-8 or
        us-ascii encoding.

        >>>

        This was the charter. Besides that, you can say that the list has been
        active for xx time (chen?) and has yy members (chen?), and we seek
        hosting by beak because Yahoo! groups terms are annoying. A word or two
        about an imminent web-site wiki may also be in order.

        You owe me 10 agorot.

        -- Arik


        Shlomi Fish wrote:

        > In response to Shachar's response I hacked together a wordy
        > description of
        > what Hackers-IL is all about. I did my best to word it accurately, and
        > also
        > run aspell on it, but still spelling errors, grammatical errors, and
        > inaccuracies may be lurking here.
        > Please read it (it's included below) and comment on it. If you think
        > anything
        > should be modified, just let me know. Remember that it will be:
        > 1. Sent to the beak's admins in trying to convince them to host
        > hackers.org.il
        > there.
        > 2. Will be used and maintained more permanently as the charter of this
        > mailing
        > list.
        > Note to self and everyone: I forgot to mention that discussions of
        > philsophical/politcal subjects with no relation to science and
        > technology are
        > off-topic here. Well, I'll add it, but better release early and release
        > often, I say.
        > Regards,
        > Shlomi Fish
        >
        > ==================================================================
        > Hacker, n.:
        >
        > 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems
        > and how
        > to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to
        > learn
        > only the minimum necessary. RFC1392, the Internet Users' Glossary,
        > usefully
        > amplifies this as: A person who delights in having an intimate
        > understanding
        > of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in
        > particular.
        > 2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys
        > programming rather than just theorizing about programming.
        >
        > 6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy
        > hacker, for
        > example.
        > 7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or
        > circumventing limitations.
        > (from the Jargon File - http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/
        > <http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/jargon/>)
        > What is Hackers-IL?
        > -------------------
        > Hackers-IL are a group of computer enthusiasts who enjoy intelligently
        > discussing creative programming and other branches of science and
        > technology
        > . Our discussions tend to be a bit "philosophical" in nature,
        > trying to reach conclusions for things that are debatable or
        > controversial,
        > and trying.
        > Note: From now until forever: we are by no means computer intruders!
        > While
        > some
        > of us are knowledgeable in security, discovering security holes,
        > writing and
        > utilizing exploits, and even are capable of intruding into non-secure
        > systems
        > - we do not sanction the unauthorized invasion of the networked property
        > of others, much less sabotaging it.
        > The "Hackers" part in "Hackers-IL" means the more traditional and
        > original
        > meaning of hackers, not the media perpetuated one.
        > Who are the members of Hackers-IL?
        > ----------------------------------
        > It would be a good generalization to say that most of the active members
        > are Windows-bashing UNIX and Linux enthusiasts. Nevertheless, we do
        > accept
        > Windows hackers, including those who actually like it, as long as
        > they do not bash UNIX irrationally for non-issues. And naturally,
        > developers
        > of more exotic operating systems, are also more than welcome. We could
        > always
        > use more diversity.
        > We are mostly educated people. Most of us have a high school
        > education, some
        > of us are still college students, and others have a B.A., B.Sc., M.Sc. or
        > even a Ph.D. We would accept even K-12 children, but cannot guarantee
        > that
        > our content would be "child-safe" in the pornographic sense. While, we do
        > not post hard-core pornography or have overt discussions about sexual
        > matters
        > (nor do we sanction them), we may actually say things that hint or
        > mention
        > them.
        > What are the topics of discussions?
        > -----------------------------------
        > We have a wide range of discussion topics: history of computing and
        > technology;
        > various programming languages; software management; high education in
        > Israel
        > and elsewhere; new thought-provoking articles that were published by
        > various
        > persons on the Internet; computer or science humour; the various
        > facets of the
        > open-source world; operating systems; famous or not-so-famous books; and
        > the list goes on.
        > What we are not is a help-desk. We do not tell people how to write their
        > homework, or how to X and Y in Foolang or Barware. There are many other
        > specialized forums on the Net that can help you with it: we are not the
        > place for it. While we do discuss design issues in existing programs, or
        > mention such techniques, we are not going to write your code for you.
        > How is Hackers-IL affiliated with Israel?
        > -----------------------------------------
        > The IL in Hackers-IL is the country code of Israel. Nevertheless, the
        > discussions in Hackers-IL are entirely in English in the ASCII character
        > set. Sometimes we use UTF-8 or iso8859-8 if there is a good need, but
        > it's
        > the exception rather than the rule.
        > We are affiliated with Israel in the sense that most of us are living in
        > Israel, interested in it, visited it, are Jews, etc. That does not mean
        > we do not accept foreigners and/or gentiles into the mailing list. We do,
        > and we do not pre-discriminate against anybody. However, we hold
        > ourselves
        > some "Israeli-oriented" rights like transliterating Hebrew phrases inside
        > the English, translating idioms from Hebrew to English without looking
        > for
        > an English equivalent, linking to Israeli or Hebrew articles, discussing
        > current Israeli affairs (usually with a universal lesson), etc.
        > Most of are discussions are entirely universal, though. If you still
        > don't
        > like it, feel free to start Hackers-Foovile or Hackers-Llewelynland.
        > We will
        > gladly link to you.
        > What are the technical resources of Hackers-IL?
        > -----------------------------------------------
        > At the moment, most of the action takes place in a mailing list,
        > hosted on
        > Yahoo Groups. Yahoo Groups (and previously eGroups) offer a very good
        > service.
        > However, its commercialism and the fact that Yahoo is trying to save
        > money
        > on it on expense of its users, leaves us with three choices of
        > accepting the
        > Status Quo, paying them to relieve the limitations, or moving the
        > mailing list
        > to our own domain.
        > While we have nothing against paying Yahoo Groups to get premium
        > service (such
        > good services can cost money an rightfully so), we wish to move the
        > mailing
        > list to our own domain (hackers.org.il) where we will have more
        > opportunities
        > for growing the community and more fun taking it into the next phase of
        > advancement. We are hackers after all, and as such have resources at our
        > disposal to accommodate for our Internet services, and wish to host it
        > ourselves.
        > After the domain is set up, we plan to establish a web-site with some
        > information about us, links and a world-editable Wiki. Hopefully, the
        > web-site
        > will be active as well, publicize our list, and span a culture of its
        > own.
        > We also have several ideas for other mailing lists to complement
        > hackers-il.
        > Some ideas are mailing lists for code snippets, mailing lists for
        > collaborating on contributions to open source code, an actual help
        > desk for
        > general computer
        > help, etc.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        > Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
        > <http://t2.technion.ac.il/%7Eshlomif/>
        > I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
        > I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • Ori Idan
        Reading both descriptions, I think both of them are good but I tend to like Shlomi s description, Shlomi s description is rather long but explains everthing in
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 6, 2004
          Reading both descriptions, I think both of them are good but I tend to
          like Shlomi's description, Shlomi's description is rather long but
          explains everthing in great details I like especially that part that
          descriminates hackers from crackers which are busy with illegal
          activity. I think it is very important as today many people just hearing
          the word hacker immidiatly think about someone who entertain illegal
          computer activity.
          I had some discussions even with sytem administrator and computer
          instructors about this term thus we should explain it as detailed as
          possible, just like Shlomi did, I could not do it better.

          --
          Ori Idan

          Arik Baratz wrote:
          > Hi Shlomi
          >
          > I think you are too verbose, and you are going into places you better
          > stay out of (jews vs. gentiles? come on). I'd take each of your
          > paragraphs (sans the Hacker jargon definition) and derive a single
          > sentence from it. I suggest the following charter:
          >
          > >>>
          >
          > Hackers-IL is a mailing list for computer enthusiasts who enjoy
          > intelligently discussing creative programming and other branches of
          > science and technology. We do not sanction nor encourage illegal
          > activity. The group comprises mostly of educated persons, but is not
          > limited to such.
          >
          > There is no limit on the language used, but the members have a good
          > sense of internet etiquette and foul language is only heard in extreme
          > cases. We do not eforce correct latin pluralii.
          >
          > The topics of discussion include and revolve around computers,
          > technology, the internet, OS/FS, books. Offtopic discussions include
          > helpdesk questions, help in obtaining illegal access to computer systems
          > and getting even with your ex-something by sending them viruses.
          >
          > Hackers-IL relates to Israel in the sense that most members bear some
          > relationship to Israel. While the formal language of the mailing list is
          > English, there will be instances where we will write parts of a message
          > in Hebrew, if it can contribute to the discussion. We will link to
          > Israel-related and Hebrew articles, and discuss topics which are of
          > special interest to Israelis.
          >
          > We accept members regardless of their nationality, religion, sex, etc.
          > The list admins maintain the right to kick out a subscriber that posts
          > offending and defamatory messages to the list. Only list members may
          > post to the list.
          >
          > Messages to the list should be text-only and should use the UTF-8 or
          > us-ascii encoding.
          >
          > >>>
          >
          > This was the charter. Besides that, you can say that the list has been
          > active for xx time (chen?) and has yy members (chen?), and we seek
          > hosting by beak because Yahoo! groups terms are annoying. A word or two
          > about an imminent web-site wiki may also be in order.
          >
          > You owe me 10 agorot.
          >
          > -- Arik
          >
          >
          > Shlomi Fish wrote:
          >
          >
          >>In response to Shachar's response I hacked together a wordy
          >>description of
          >>what Hackers-IL is all about. I did my best to word it accurately, and
          >>also
          >>run aspell on it, but still spelling errors, grammatical errors, and
          >>inaccuracies may be lurking here.
          >>Please read it (it's included below) and comment on it. If you think
          >>anything
          >>should be modified, just let me know. Remember that it will be:
          >>1. Sent to the beak's admins in trying to convince them to host
          >>hackers.org.il
          >>there.
          >>2. Will be used and maintained more permanently as the charter of this
          >>mailing
          >>list.
          >>Note to self and everyone: I forgot to mention that discussions of
          >>philsophical/politcal subjects with no relation to science and
          >>technology are
          >>off-topic here. Well, I'll add it, but better release early and release
          >>often, I say.
          >>Regards,
          >> Shlomi Fish
          >>
          >>==================================================================
          >>Hacker, n.:
          >>
          >>1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems
          >>and how
          >>to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to
          >>learn
          >>only the minimum necessary. RFC1392, the Internet Users' Glossary,
          >>usefully
          >>amplifies this as: A person who delights in having an intimate
          >>understanding
          >>of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in
          >>particular.
          >>2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys
          >>programming rather than just theorizing about programming.
          >>
          >>6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy
          >>hacker, for
          >>example.
          >>7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or
          >>circumventing limitations.
          >>(from the Jargon File - http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/
          >><http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/jargon/>)
          >>What is Hackers-IL?
          >>-------------------
          >>Hackers-IL are a group of computer enthusiasts who enjoy intelligently
          >>discussing creative programming and other branches of science and
          >>technology
          >>. Our discussions tend to be a bit "philosophical" in nature,
          >>trying to reach conclusions for things that are debatable or
          >>controversial,
          >>and trying.
          >>Note: From now until forever: we are by no means computer intruders!
          >>While
          >>some
          >>of us are knowledgeable in security, discovering security holes,
          >>writing and
          >>utilizing exploits, and even are capable of intruding into non-secure
          >>systems
          >>- we do not sanction the unauthorized invasion of the networked property
          >>of others, much less sabotaging it.
          >>The "Hackers" part in "Hackers-IL" means the more traditional and
          >>original
          >>meaning of hackers, not the media perpetuated one.
          >>Who are the members of Hackers-IL?
          >>----------------------------------
          >>It would be a good generalization to say that most of the active members
          >>are Windows-bashing UNIX and Linux enthusiasts. Nevertheless, we do
          >>accept
          >>Windows hackers, including those who actually like it, as long as
          >>they do not bash UNIX irrationally for non-issues. And naturally,
          >>developers
          >>of more exotic operating systems, are also more than welcome. We could
          >>always
          >>use more diversity.
          >>We are mostly educated people. Most of us have a high school
          >>education, some
          >>of us are still college students, and others have a B.A., B.Sc., M.Sc. or
          >>even a Ph.D. We would accept even K-12 children, but cannot guarantee
          >>that
          >>our content would be "child-safe" in the pornographic sense. While, we do
          >>not post hard-core pornography or have overt discussions about sexual
          >>matters
          >>(nor do we sanction them), we may actually say things that hint or
          >>mention
          >>them.
          >>What are the topics of discussions?
          >>-----------------------------------
          >>We have a wide range of discussion topics: history of computing and
          >>technology;
          >>various programming languages; software management; high education in
          >>Israel
          >>and elsewhere; new thought-provoking articles that were published by
          >>various
          >>persons on the Internet; computer or science humour; the various
          >>facets of the
          >>open-source world; operating systems; famous or not-so-famous books; and
          >>the list goes on.
          >>What we are not is a help-desk. We do not tell people how to write their
          >>homework, or how to X and Y in Foolang or Barware. There are many other
          >>specialized forums on the Net that can help you with it: we are not the
          >>place for it. While we do discuss design issues in existing programs, or
          >>mention such techniques, we are not going to write your code for you.
          >>How is Hackers-IL affiliated with Israel?
          >>-----------------------------------------
          >>The IL in Hackers-IL is the country code of Israel. Nevertheless, the
          >>discussions in Hackers-IL are entirely in English in the ASCII character
          >>set. Sometimes we use UTF-8 or iso8859-8 if there is a good need, but
          >>it's
          >>the exception rather than the rule.
          >>We are affiliated with Israel in the sense that most of us are living in
          >>Israel, interested in it, visited it, are Jews, etc. That does not mean
          >>we do not accept foreigners and/or gentiles into the mailing list. We do,
          >>and we do not pre-discriminate against anybody. However, we hold
          >>ourselves
          >>some "Israeli-oriented" rights like transliterating Hebrew phrases inside
          >>the English, translating idioms from Hebrew to English without looking
          >>for
          >>an English equivalent, linking to Israeli or Hebrew articles, discussing
          >>current Israeli affairs (usually with a universal lesson), etc.
          >>Most of are discussions are entirely universal, though. If you still
          >>don't
          >>like it, feel free to start Hackers-Foovile or Hackers-Llewelynland.
          >>We will
          >>gladly link to you.
          >>What are the technical resources of Hackers-IL?
          >>-----------------------------------------------
          >>At the moment, most of the action takes place in a mailing list,
          >>hosted on
          >>Yahoo Groups. Yahoo Groups (and previously eGroups) offer a very good
          >>service.
          >>However, its commercialism and the fact that Yahoo is trying to save
          >>money
          >>on it on expense of its users, leaves us with three choices of
          >>accepting the
          >>Status Quo, paying them to relieve the limitations, or moving the
          >>mailing list
          >>to our own domain.
          >>While we have nothing against paying Yahoo Groups to get premium
          >>service (such
          >>good services can cost money an rightfully so), we wish to move the
          >>mailing
          >>list to our own domain (hackers.org.il) where we will have more
          >>opportunities
          >>for growing the community and more fun taking it into the next phase of
          >>advancement. We are hackers after all, and as such have resources at our
          >>disposal to accommodate for our Internet services, and wish to host it
          >>ourselves.
          >>After the domain is set up, we plan to establish a web-site with some
          >>information about us, links and a world-editable Wiki. Hopefully, the
          >>web-site
          >>will be active as well, publicize our list, and span a culture of its
          >>own.
          >>We also have several ideas for other mailing lists to complement
          >>hackers-il.
          >>Some ideas are mailing lists for code snippets, mailing lists for
          >>collaborating on contributions to open source code, an actual help
          >>desk for
          >>general computer
          >>help, etc.
          >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
          >>Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          >>Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
          >><http://t2.technion.ac.il/%7Eshlomif/>
          >>I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
          >>I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
          >>
          >>
          >>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Shlomi Fish
          ... Hi Arik, your charter looks very nice, but I ll comment below. In any case, I think my wordy description would still be more suitable for the web-site.
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 6, 2004
            On Saturday 07 February 2004 02:52, Arik Baratz wrote:
            > Hi Shlomi
            >
            > I think you are too verbose, and you are going into places you better
            > stay out of (jews vs. gentiles? come on). I'd take each of your
            > paragraphs (sans the Hacker jargon definition) and derive a single
            > sentence from it. I suggest the following charter:
            >

            Hi Arik, your charter looks very nice, but I'll comment below. In any case, I
            think my wordy description would still be more suitable for the web-site.
            (with a few corrections, some of which were already be made).

            >
            >
            > Hackers-IL is a mailing list for computer enthusiasts who enjoy
            > intelligently discussing creative programming and other branches of
            > science and technology.

            > We do not sanction nor encourage illegal
            > activity. The group comprises mostly of educated persons, but is not
            > limited to such.
            >

            These two sentences are a bit out of place. What kind of illegal activity
            don't we sanction? And what kind of legal? If an American publishes the DeCSS
            source code on his site, despite the DMCA, shouldn't we sanction it? And this
            is without getting into philosophical discussions of "absolute" Law vs.
            Country Law.

            So I think we can omit this sentence because you already mention that we do
            not encourage breaking into other people's computers later on.

            As for the "educated" - it doesn't sound too right. How about:

            "The group comprises mostly of people who are knowledgeable or very
            knowledgeable about computers or science, many times with a proven education.
            However, we are open for everybody who is eager for knowledge and mind
            exercise.

            > There is no limit on the language used, but the members have a good
            > sense of internet etiquette and foul language is only heard in extreme
            > cases. We do not eforce correct latin pluralii.
            >

            What is correct Latin pluralii? (pardon my ignorance)

            > The topics of discussion include and revolve around computers,
            > technology, the internet, OS/FS, books. Offtopic discussions include
            > helpdesk questions, help in obtaining illegal access to computer systems
            > and getting even with your ex-something by sending them viruses.
            >

            Right. Nice.

            > Hackers-IL relates to Israel in the sense that most members bear some
            > relationship to Israel. While the formal language of the mailing list is
            > English, there will be instances where we will write parts of a message
            > in Hebrew, if it can contribute to the discussion. We will link to
            > Israel-related and Hebrew articles, and discuss topics which are of
            > special interest to Israelis.
            >

            Nice.

            > We accept members regardless of their nationality, religion, sex, etc.
            > The list admins maintain the right to kick out a subscriber that posts
            > offending and defamatory messages to the list. Only list members may
            > post to the list.
            >

            OK.

            > Messages to the list should be text-only and should use the UTF-8 or
            > us-ascii encoding.
            >

            I would add (preferablly US-ASCII only)

            >
            >
            > This was the charter. Besides that, you can say that the list has been
            > active for xx time (chen?) and has yy members (chen?), and we seek
            > hosting by beak because Yahoo! groups terms are annoying. A word or two
            > about an imminent web-site wiki may also be in order.
            >

            I will thanks.

            > You owe me 10 agorot.
            >

            I'll give you 20, because I highly appreciate your contribution.

            Like I said, I'm still going to use my old charter on the upcoming web-site
            unless someone has anything to say. (I'll put the corrected version online
            and send a link, so as to not increase the volume of this list too much)

            Regards,

            Shlomi Fish

            --

            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
            Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

            I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
            I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
          • Nadav Har'El
            ... You might want to stick the word cracker somewhere here. ... Excuse me? I don t recall any pornographic discussions on this list, hard-core or not. Like
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 7, 2004
              On Fri, Feb 06, 2004, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Description of Hackers-IL - Part I":
              > Note: From now until forever: we are by no means computer intruders! While
              >..
              > The "Hackers" part in "Hackers-IL" means the more traditional and original
              > meaning of hackers, not the media perpetuated one.

              You might want to stick the word "cracker" somewhere here.

              > even a Ph.D. We would accept even K-12 children, but cannot guarantee that
              > our content would be "child-safe" in the pornographic sense. While, we do
              > not post hard-core pornography or have overt discussions about sexual matters
              > (nor do we sanction them), we may actually say things that hint or mention
              > them.

              Excuse me? I don't recall any pornographic discussions on this list, hard-core
              or not. Like any unmoderated mailing-list some idiot can subscribe and post
              some pornographic text, but this would certainly be considered off-topic and
              frowned upon. So why even mention this?

              > We have a wide range of discussion topics: history of computing and
              > technology;
              > various programming languages; software management; high education in Israel
              > and elsewhere; new thought-provoking articles that were published by various
              > persons on the Internet; computer or science humour; the various facets of the
              > open-source world; operating systems; famous or not-so-famous books; and
              > the list goes on.
              >
              > What we are not is a help-desk. We do not tell people how to write their
              > homework, or how to X and Y in Foolang or Barware. There are many other
              > specialized forums on the Net that can help you with it: we are not the
              > place for it. While we do discuss design issues in existing programs, or
              > mention such techniques, we are not going to write your code for you.

              You can sum this up by saying that we tend to dabble in the obscure - this
              list has rarely been interested in "down-to-earth" computer issues like
              how to configure you Linux machine or how to do this-and-that in C.
              Any discussion with an immediate application would be frowned upon ;)

              > We are affiliated with Israel in the sense that most of us are living in
              > Israel, interested in it, visited it, are Jews, etc. That does not mean
              > we do not accept foreigners and/or gentiles into the mailing list. We do,
              > and we do not pre-discriminate against anybody. However, we hold ourselves
              > some "Israeli-oriented" rights like transliterating Hebrew phrases inside
              > the English, translating idioms from Hebrew to English without looking for
              > an English equivalent, linking to Israeli or Hebrew articles, discussing
              > current Israeli affairs (usually with a universal lesson), etc.

              I'd drop the words "Jew", "Gentile", etc., from this discussion, it is
              completely irrelevent.
              You might say that this mailing list was started by a few Israeli friends,
              and naturally grew to include mostly Israelis. The Israeli members of
              this group, living in a confined geographical area, also find it easier to
              meet each other in person, strengthening their sense of community.

              > Most of are discussions are entirely universal, though. If you still don't
              > like it, feel free to start Hackers-Foovile or Hackers-Llewelynland. We will
              > gladly link to you.

              Link to it? I thought that hackers-il was a mailing list, not a web site :)

              > We also have several ideas for other mailing lists to complement hackers-il.

              I think this is a bad idea. Hackers-il is very low volume as is, and creating
              splinter groups would not do it any good.

              > Some ideas are mailing lists for code snippets, mailing lists for
              > collaborating on contributions to open source code, an actual help desk for
              > general computer
              > help, etc.

              Most of these have nothing to do with hackers-il... You'll find most of
              these happening in linux-il, which *is* a mailing list that could use
              some splitting up :)

              --
              Nadav Har'El | Saturday, Feb 7 2004, 15 Shevat 5764
              nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
              Phone: +972-53-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Creativity consists of coming up with
              http://nadav.harel.org.il |many ideas, not just that one great idea.
            • Shlomi Fish
              ... I m a bit hazy about cracker . For me cracker means someone who is trying to sabotage a system. Some computer intruders simply want to prove to themselves
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 7, 2004
                On Saturday 07 February 2004 12:04, Nadav Har'El wrote:
                > On Fri, Feb 06, 2004, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Description of
                Hackers-IL - Part I":
                > > Note: From now until forever: we are by no means computer intruders!
                > > While ..
                > > The "Hackers" part in "Hackers-IL" means the more traditional and
                > > original meaning of hackers, not the media perpetuated one.
                >
                > You might want to stick the word "cracker" somewhere here.
                >

                I'm a bit hazy about "cracker". For me cracker means someone who is trying to
                sabotage a system. Some computer intruders simply want to prove to themselves
                that they can hack into a system, and do not wish to do anything with it. I
                knew a computer intruder who was three years my junior, and was very
                knowledgable in UNIX, TCP/IP, security, C, etc. He was a very nice and
                pleasant person, and he acted as our company's network administrator. I also
                saw a Linux Kernel fix he did once. Such people transcend above the casual
                "script kiddie" level, and I have a hard time calling them "crackers".

                I do not sanction intruding to other people's computers, without their
                permissions, but I think the real problem is software that is written
                sloppily, and systems that are not kept updated. (and general lack of
                consciousness about it). The U.S. media likes to perpetuate computer
                intruders and viruses writers as the problem, but they are a necessary
                symptom rather than the real problem.

                So I'd rather just say that we are hackers, in the MIT/Berkeley sense, and not
                computer intruders, instead of trying to draw the line between "hacker" and
                "cracker". Note that I sometimes use the term "he hacked into our server" to
                mean that he logged in there, without permission. Thus, it makes such people
                "hackers". Of course, the problem is that the verb to hack has a very general
                meaning.

                > > even a Ph.D. We would accept even K-12 children, but cannot guarantee
                > > that our content would be "child-safe" in the pornographic sense. While,
                > > we do not post hard-core pornography or have overt discussions about
                > > sexual matters (nor do we sanction them), we may actually say things that
                > > hint or mention them.
                >
                > Excuse me? I don't recall any pornographic discussions on this list,
                > hard-core or not. Like any unmoderated mailing-list some idiot can
                > subscribe and post some pornographic text, but this would certainly be
                > considered off-topic and frowned upon. So why even mention this?
                >

                There was the Playboy hiatus, followed by the thing about bras... This may be
                considered inappropriate to children. I suppose I can try to paraphrase it a
                bit. In any case, I just want to make sure parents don't become angry that
                their 7-years old child joined Hackers-IL and then heard something that
                hinted or mentioned sex.

                Can you suggest a better paragraph? I'm a bit hazy on it.

                > > We have a wide range of discussion topics: history of computing and
                > > technology;
                > > various programming languages; software management; high education in
                > > Israel and elsewhere; new thought-provoking articles that were published
                > > by various persons on the Internet; computer or science humour; the
                > > various facets of the open-source world; operating systems; famous or
                > > not-so-famous books; and the list goes on.
                > >
                > > What we are not is a help-desk. We do not tell people how to write their
                > > homework, or how to X and Y in Foolang or Barware. There are many other
                > > specialized forums on the Net that can help you with it: we are not the
                > > place for it. While we do discuss design issues in existing programs, or
                > > mention such techniques, we are not going to write your code for you.
                >
                > You can sum this up by saying that we tend to dabble in the obscure - this
                > list has rarely been interested in "down-to-earth" computer issues like
                > how to configure you Linux machine or how to do this-and-that in C.
                > Any discussion with an immediate application would be frowned upon ;)
                >

                I'm not sure this is the case. Sometimes people can consult us with design
                decisions that they are later going to implement. This is fully legitimate.
                I'd rather be verbose in this WWW charter than err on being obscure.

                > > We are affiliated with Israel in the sense that most of us are living in
                > > Israel, interested in it, visited it, are Jews, etc. That does not mean
                > > we do not accept foreigners and/or gentiles into the mailing list. We do,
                > > and we do not pre-discriminate against anybody. However, we hold
                > > ourselves some "Israeli-oriented" rights like transliterating Hebrew
                > > phrases inside the English, translating idioms from Hebrew to English
                > > without looking for an English equivalent, linking to Israeli or Hebrew
                > > articles, discussing current Israeli affairs (usually with a universal
                > > lesson), etc.
                >
                > I'd drop the words "Jew", "Gentile", etc., from this discussion, it is
                > completely irrelevent.

                Right. As Arik noted, I'll change it in my copy and upload it again.

                > You might say that this mailing list was started by a few Israeli friends,
                > and naturally grew to include mostly Israelis. The Israeli members of
                > this group, living in a confined geographical area, also find it easier to
                > meet each other in person, strengthening their sense of community.
                >

                Cool, I will.

                > > Most of are discussions are entirely universal, though. If you still
                > > don't like it, feel free to start Hackers-Foovile or
                > > Hackers-Llewelynland. We will gladly link to you.
                >
                > Link to it? I thought that hackers-il was a mailing list, not a web site :)
                >

                Well, we are planning to set up a web-site and a Wiki once we move to the new
                domain. We can link from there. Alternatively, someone can address us in
                person, and we'll post a link to the site. For instance, if anyone of us
                lived for sometime abroad in one place, he may wish to join its local
                Hackers-Foovile group.

                > > We also have several ideas for other mailing lists to complement
                > > hackers-il.
                >
                > I think this is a bad idea. Hackers-il is very low volume as is, and
                > creating splinter groups would not do it any good.
                >

                See below.

                > > Some ideas are mailing lists for code snippets, mailing lists for
                > > collaborating on contributions to open source code, an actual help desk
                > > for general computer
                > > help, etc.
                >
                > Most of these have nothing to do with hackers-il... You'll find most of
                > these happening in linux-il, which *is* a mailing list that could use
                > some splitting up :)

                Hmmm.... well, personally, I wanted to create a mailing list to send
                interesting little stuff I wrote. People believed my tendency to do that
                lowered the SNR of Hackers-IL, but I (and many others) actually found it
                desirable to send them and discuss them. (this is a common theme in the Perl
                Monks web-site, BTW).

                Sending a funky makefile that I wrote for Linux-IL just to show off is
                off-topic there. So, if we have something like that in Hackers-IL, where we
                move discussions from there to the core mailing list if it gets interesting,
                we can really benefit from it. And we have our own domain, so what do we
                care.

                "May the boys play in front of us."

                Regards,

                Shlomi Fish

                --

                ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

                I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
                I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
              • Shlomi Fish
                ... I think Arik s description should do for sending it to the beak s admins. Mine will more suitable in the About page of the future web-site. ...
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 7, 2004
                  On Saturday 07 February 2004 04:25, Ori Idan wrote:
                  > Reading both descriptions, I think both of them are good but I tend to
                  > like Shlomi's description, Shlomi's description is rather long but
                  > explains everthing in great details I like especially that part that
                  > descriminates hackers from crackers which are busy with illegal
                  > activity. I think it is very important as today many people just hearing
                  > the word hacker immidiatly think about someone who entertain illegal
                  > computer activity.

                  I think Arik's description should do for sending it to the beak's admins. Mine
                  will more suitable in the About page of the future web-site.

                  > I had some discussions even with sytem administrator and computer
                  > instructors about this term thus we should explain it as detailed as
                  > possible, just like Shlomi did, I could not do it better.
                  >

                  Interesting. But even I became aware of the more broad meaning of the term
                  hacker quite lately in my career. I also was working on UNIX for quite some
                  time (used GNU programs, compiled gcc and X-Windows, and turned a SunOS
                  system into GNU/SunOS) and I still believed hacking was mostly computer
                  intruding.

                  What I do recall was an incident that happened to me when I worked in a
                  relatively Microsoftish company that produced a cross-platform database
                  middleware. I talked with the CTO, who was an ex-Micrososftie who had headed
                  the development of the Microsoft Jet Database. I asked him if Bill Gates was
                  a good programmer, and he answered: "Yes. He used to be a real hacker." By
                  that time, I knew he did not mean a computer intruder.

                  He went on to tell me that he wrote something in Basic for his school, and
                  that he was completely clueless in certain areas such as databases.

                  Of course, I don't think Gates can be considered a good hacker in today's
                  standards. Heck, even my Basic/C/Pascal DOS/Win3.x knowledge I had when I was
                  18 (which is well above what the general populace know about hacking), is now
                  hugely superceded by the knowledge of any half-decent 16-years-old Linux
                  guru.

                  You can't say that there isn't progress in due time, and the generation is not
                  diminishing, but quite the opposite.

                  Regards,

                  Shlomi Fish

                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                  Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

                  I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
                  I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
                • Shlomi Fish
                  Hi all! Well, I took Arik s mini-charter, and modified it somewhat according to my and his input. If all is well with everybody, I will send it to the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 7, 2004
                    Hi all!

                    Well, I took Arik's mini-charter, and modified it somewhat according to my
                    and his input. If all is well with everybody, I will send it to the
                    beak.hamakor.org.il's admins.

                    Please review and comment.

                    Here goes:

                    -----------------------------------------------------

                    Hackers-IL is a mailing list for computer enthusiasts who enjoy
                    intelligently discussing creative programming and other branches of
                    science and technology. We do not discuss computer intrusion (the
                    media-perpetuated meaning of "hacking") and do not sanction such activities.
                    The group comprises mostly of people who are knowledgeable or very
                    knowledgeable about computers or science, many times with a proven education.
                    However, we are open for everybody who is eager for knowledge and mind
                    exercise.

                    There is no limit on the language used, but the members have a good
                    sense of Internet etiquette and foul language is only heard in extreme
                    cases.

                    The topics of discussion include and revolve around computers,
                    technology, the Internet, Open Source/Free Software and books.
                    Off-topic discussions include help-desk questions, help in obtaining
                    illegal access to computer systems and getting even with your ex-something
                    by sending them viruses.

                    Hackers-IL relates to Israel in the sense that most members bear some
                    relationship to Israel. While the formal language of the mailing list is
                    English, there will be instances where we will write parts of a message
                    in Hebrew, if it can contribute to the discussion. Furthermore,
                    we may link to Israel-related and Hebrew articles, and discuss topics
                    which are of special interest to Israelis.

                    We accept members regardless of their nationality, religion, gender, etc.
                    The list admins maintain the right to kick out a subscriber that posts
                    offending and defamatory messages to the list. Only list members may
                    post to the list.

                    Messages to the list should be text-only and should use the US-ASCII
                    encoding (preferably) or UTF-8 when there's a good need.

                    The group has been active as a Yahoo Groups mailing list since May 2000.
                    We now wish to move to our domain (hackers.org.il) and to a mail service
                    hosted on beak, so we will be self-maintaining, avoid the various limits
                    Yahoo Groups imposes on its free service, and give us a chance for our
                    culture to grow beyond just a mailing list.

                    ----------------------------------------------

                    It's a bazaar model of development, isn't it?

                    Regards,

                    Shlomi Fish


                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                    Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

                    I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
                    I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
                  • Arik Baratz
                    ... s/proven/formal/g ... Yup. -- Arik
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 7, 2004
                      Shlomi Fish wrote:

                      > Hackers-IL is a mailing list for computer enthusiasts who enjoy
                      > intelligently discussing creative programming and other branches of
                      > science and technology. We do not discuss computer intrusion (the
                      > media-perpetuated meaning of "hacking") and do not sanction such
                      > activities.
                      > The group comprises mostly of people who are knowledgeable or very
                      > knowledgeable about computers or science, many times with a proven
                      > education.
                      > However, we are open for everybody who is eager for knowledge and mind
                      > exercise.
                      >
                      s/proven/formal/g

                      > There is no limit on the language used, but the members have a good
                      > sense of Internet etiquette and foul language is only heard in extreme
                      > cases.
                      >
                      > The topics of discussion include and revolve around computers,
                      > technology, the Internet, Open Source/Free Software and books.
                      > Off-topic discussions include help-desk questions, help in obtaining
                      > illegal access to computer systems and getting even with your
                      > ex-something
                      > by sending them viruses.
                      >
                      > Hackers-IL relates to Israel in the sense that most members bear some
                      > relationship to Israel. While the formal language of the mailing list is
                      > English, there will be instances where we will write parts of a message
                      > in Hebrew, if it can contribute to the discussion. Furthermore,
                      > we may link to Israel-related and Hebrew articles, and discuss topics
                      > which are of special interest to Israelis.
                      >
                      > We accept members regardless of their nationality, religion, gender, etc.
                      > The list admins maintain the right to kick out a subscriber that posts
                      > offending and defamatory messages to the list. Only list members may
                      > post to the list.
                      >
                      > Messages to the list should be text-only and should use the US-ASCII
                      > encoding (preferably) or UTF-8 when there's a good need.
                      >
                      > The group has been active as a Yahoo Groups mailing list since May 2000.
                      > We now wish to move to our domain (hackers.org.il) and to a mail service
                      > hosted on beak, so we will be self-maintaining, avoid the various limits
                      > Yahoo Groups imposes on its free service, and give us a chance for our
                      > culture to grow beyond just a mailing list.
                      >
                      > ----------------------------------------------
                      >
                      > It's a bazaar model of development, isn't it?
                      >
                      Yup.

                      -- Arik
                    • Arik Baratz
                      ... That s a taunt on behalf of The Wielder of the SCSI Cable, Maintainer of the Linux-IL list and Linux-IL Non-Cabal Non-Leader. ... If you re using your
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 7, 2004
                        > > There is no limit on the language used, but the members have a good
                        > > sense of internet etiquette and foul language is only heard in extreme
                        > > cases. We do not eforce correct latin pluralii.
                        > >
                        >
                        > What is correct Latin pluralii? (pardon my ignorance)
                        >
                        That's a taunt on behalf of The Wielder of the SCSI Cable, Maintainer of
                        the Linux-IL list and Linux-IL Non-Cabal Non-Leader.

                        > I'll give you 20, because I highly appreciate your contribution.
                        >
                        > Like I said, I'm still going to use my old charter on the upcoming
                        > web-site
                        > unless someone has anything to say. (I'll put the corrected version
                        > online
                        > and send a link, so as to not increase the volume of this list too much)
                        >
                        If you're using your charter I strngly suggest you review it and take
                        the edge off some things in there.

                        -- Arik
                      • Shlomi Fish
                        ... Sure, I ll correct that. ... Regards, Shlomi Fish ... Shlomi Fish shlomif@iglu.org.il Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ I don t
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 8, 2004
                          On Sunday 08 February 2004 00:57, Arik Baratz wrote:
                          > Shlomi Fish wrote:
                          > > Hackers-IL is a mailing list for computer enthusiasts who enjoy
                          > > intelligently discussing creative programming and other branches of
                          > > science and technology. We do not discuss computer intrusion (the
                          > > media-perpetuated meaning of "hacking") and do not sanction such
                          > > activities.
                          > > The group comprises mostly of people who are knowledgeable or very
                          > > knowledgeable about computers or science, many times with a proven
                          > > education.
                          > > However, we are open for everybody who is eager for knowledge and mind
                          > > exercise.
                          >
                          > s/proven/formal/g
                          >

                          Sure, I'll correct that.

                          > > ----------------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > It's a bazaar model of development, isn't it?
                          >
                          > Yup.
                          >

                          :-)

                          Regards,

                          Shlomi Fish

                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                          Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

                          I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
                          I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
                        • Shlomi Fish
                          ... Oh, I see. Well, I think I ll just omit it. Not many people will understand it. ... OK, I will. I m going to revise it a bit and post it on the web for
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 8, 2004
                            On Sunday 08 February 2004 01:04, Arik Baratz wrote:
                            > > > There is no limit on the language used, but the members have a good
                            > > > sense of internet etiquette and foul language is only heard in extreme
                            > > > cases. We do not eforce correct latin pluralii.
                            > >
                            > > What is correct Latin pluralii? (pardon my ignorance)
                            >
                            > That's a taunt on behalf of The Wielder of the SCSI Cable, Maintainer of
                            > the Linux-IL list and Linux-IL Non-Cabal Non-Leader.
                            >

                            Oh, I see. Well, I think I'll just omit it. Not many people will understand
                            it.

                            > > I'll give you 20, because I highly appreciate your contribution.
                            > >
                            > > Like I said, I'm still going to use my old charter on the upcoming
                            > > web-site
                            > > unless someone has anything to say. (I'll put the corrected version
                            > > online
                            > > and send a link, so as to not increase the volume of this list too much)
                            >
                            > If you're using your charter I strngly suggest you review it and take
                            > the edge off some things in there.
                            >

                            OK, I will. I'm going to revise it a bit and post it on the web for review.
                            Then, you can comment on it, before we place it on the site. Note that I wish
                            it to be dynamic instead of static, so there's not going to be a "final"
                            version.

                            Regards,

                            Shlomi Fish

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                            Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

                            I don't believe in fairies. Oops! A fairy died.
                            I don't believe in fairies. Oops! Another fairy died.
                          • Arik Baratz
                            ... From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@iglu.org.il] ... By all means, do. ... I think a wiki is a good tool for peer review. -- Arik
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 8, 2004
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]


                              > > That's a taunt on behalf of The Wielder of the SCSI Cable, Maintainer of
                              > > the Linux-IL list and Linux-IL Non-Cabal Non-Leader.
                              > >

                              > Oh, I see. Well, I think I'll just omit it. Not many people will understand
                              > it.

                              By all means, do.

                              > > If you're using your charter I strngly suggest you review it and take
                              > > the edge off some things in there.
                              > >
                              >
                              > OK, I will. I'm going to revise it a bit and post it on the web for review.
                              > Then, you can comment on it, before we place it on the site. Note that I wish
                              > it to be dynamic instead of static, so there's not going to be a "final"
                              > version.

                              I think a wiki is a good tool for peer review.

                              -- Arik

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                            • Shlomi Fish
                              ... Hmmm... wiki. I think we can volunteer the perl.org.il wiki for it: http://www.perl.org.il/kwiki/index.cgi Note that it is based on Kwiki, which is a bit
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 8, 2004
                                On Sunday 08 February 2004 13:09, Arik Baratz wrote:
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]

                                > > > If you're using your charter I strngly suggest you review it and take
                                > > > the edge off some things in there.
                                > >
                                > > OK, I will. I'm going to revise it a bit and post it on the web for
                                > > review. Then, you can comment on it, before we place it on the site. Note
                                > > that I wish it to be dynamic instead of static, so there's not going to
                                > > be a "final" version.
                                >
                                > I think a wiki is a good tool for peer review.
                                >

                                Hmmm... wiki. I think we can volunteer the perl.org.il wiki for it:

                                http://www.perl.org.il/kwiki/index.cgi

                                Note that it is based on Kwiki, which is a bit annoying, but should do
                                for the purposes of editing the charter. (we'll have to convert it to HTML
                                proper in any case eventually). If you wish to set up a nicer Wiki for this
                                and possibly future purposes, feel free to do so. I have better things to do
                                for the time being. (or maybe I should start setting up the
                                www.hackers.org.il domain on IGLU - a stitch in time saves nine.)

                                Regards,

                                Shlomi Fish

                                --

                                ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                Homepage: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

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