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RE: [hackers-il] Hypertext Bombs

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  • Alon Altman
    ... Moreover, they consider closely coupled sites with many links between them as a lower pagerank, as they probably are parts of one website (like msn and
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 31 10:36 AM
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      On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Chen Shapira wrote:
      >
      > If I were google, I'd give much lower "weight" to links within a domain, for
      > this reason.
      >
      > Perhaps google does that already, when I searched for "shlomif", the top
      > link lead to your Technion page, not to the Advogato page.

      Moreover, they consider closely coupled sites with many links between them
      as a lower pagerank, as they probably are parts of one website (like msn and
      microsoft, or CNet, not to mention many porn spammers).

      Alon

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    • Ofir Carny
      They also probably reduce the rank of links from a page which contains many (which could be a directory, etc.). ...
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 1, 2003
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        They also probably reduce the rank of links from a page which contains many (which could be a directory, etc.).

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        -----Original Message-----
        From: Alon Altman [mailto:alon@...]
        Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 8:37 PM
        To: 'hackers-il@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: RE: [hackers-il] Hypertext Bombs


        On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Chen Shapira wrote:
        >
        > If I were google, I'd give much lower "weight" to links within a domain, for
        > this reason.
        >
        > Perhaps google does that already, when I searched for "shlomif", the top
        > link lead to your Technion page, not to the Advogato page.

        Moreover, they consider closely coupled sites with many links between them
        as a lower pagerank, as they probably are parts of one website (like msn and
        microsoft, or CNet, not to mention many porn spammers).

        Alon

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        You should all JUMP UP AND DOWN for TWO HOURS while I decide on a NEW CAREER!!


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      • Shlomi Fish
        ... Yes, but the Advogato page is the second hit. On a search for mulix it s Number three. I think it used to be one of the first hits on a search for shlomi
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 1, 2003
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          On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Chen Shapira wrote:

          >
          >
          > > Do you know of any other prominent hypertext bombs?
          >
          > I think www.livejournal.com could qualify by the same mechanism, a community
          > of people, linking to each other's pages. I suppose there are more online
          > blog communities that are similar.
          >
          > More interesting, there may be such academic network, formed unintentionaly.
          > Many professors have homepages, and many of those link of the pages of
          > people they worked with. This could also create a "hyper-text bomb" effect
          > in such way. Think what would have happened to erdos's page under such
          > system.
          >
          > If I were google, I'd give much lower "weight" to links within a domain, for
          > this reason.
          >
          > Perhaps google does that already, when I searched for "shlomif", the top
          > link lead to your Technion page, not to the Advogato page.
          >

          Yes, but the Advogato page is the second hit. On a search for mulix it's
          Number three. I think it used to be one of the first hits on a search for
          "shlomi fish", but it no longer seems to be the case.

          In any case, it's still a very top hit. In comparison to the number of
          relevant pages.

          Regards,

          Shlomi Fish

          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          >
          >
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          >
          >



          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

          My opinions may seem crazy, but they all make sense. Insane sense, but
          sense nonetheless.
        • Oleg Goldshmidt
          ... In both cases the top hits are home pages. It may simply be the case that Google give home pages a very high weight. -- Oleg Goldshmidt |
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 1, 2003
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            Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> writes:

            > On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Chen Shapira wrote:
            >
            > > Perhaps google does that already, when I searched for "shlomif", the top
            > > link lead to your Technion page, not to the Advogato page.
            > >
            >
            > Yes, but the Advogato page is the second hit. On a search for mulix it's
            > Number three.

            In both cases the top hits are home pages. It may simply be the case
            that Google give home pages a very high weight.

            --
            Oleg Goldshmidt | pub@...
          • Omer Musaev
            -- Omer Mussaev Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D Mercury Interactive ... I had put some thought on the matter on my LiveJournal page. Feel free to comment.
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 1, 2003
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              --
              Omer Mussaev
              Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D
              Mercury Interactive


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
              > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:43 PM
              > To: 'hackers-il@yahoogroups.com'
              > Subject: RE: [hackers-il] Hypertext Bombs
              >
              > On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Chen Shapira wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > > Do you know of any other prominent hypertext bombs?
              > >
              > > I think www.livejournal.com could qualify by the same mechanism, a
              > community
              > > of people, linking to each other's pages. I suppose there are more
              > online
              > > blog communities that are similar.
              > >

              I had put some thought on the matter on my LiveJournal page.
              Feel free to comment.
              http://www.livejournal.com/~omerm/
            • Omer Musaev
              Please receive my apologies for the horrible format of my previous post. What I had ment is... ... The LiveJournal vs. Advogato comparison intrigued me and I
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 1, 2003
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                Please receive my apologies for the horrible format of my previous post.
                What I had ment is...


                > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                > On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Chen Shapira wrote:
                >
                > > > Do you know of any other prominent hypertext bombs?
                > > I think www.livejournal.com could qualify by the same mechanism, a
                > community
                > > of people, linking to each other's pages. I suppose there are more
                > online
                > > blog communities that are similar.


                The LiveJournal vs. Advogato comparison intrigued me and I had put some
                thought into a subject. Feel free to check it out on
                www.livejournal.com/~omerm


                It's not that I'm advertising something, but since I had already posted the
                "thoughts" on the livejournal site, I see little sence in reposting it here,
                in plain text format.



                --
                Omer Mussaev
                Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D
                Mercury Interactive
              • Shoshannah Forbes
                ... OM The LiveJournal vs. Advogato comparison intrigued me and I had put some OM thought into a subject. Feel free to check it out on OM
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 1, 2003
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                  >> > of people, linking to each other's pages. I suppose there are more
                  >> online
                  >> > blog communities that are similar.

                  OM> The LiveJournal vs. Advogato comparison intrigued me and I had put some
                  OM> thought into a subject. Feel free to check it out on
                  OM> www.livejournal.com/~omerm

                  Using weblogs as google bombs is not such a new concept.
                  See-
                  http://www.microcontentnews.com/articles/googlebombs.htm

                  Google did attempt to fix some of those problems in the year
                  since that article was published, but I am not sure how
                  well.

                  --
                  Best regards,
                  Shoshannah http://www.tellinglies.org/news
                • Shlomi Fish
                  I accidently surfed into the Google s directory Bug Tracking section:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 4, 2003
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                    I accidently surfed into the Google's directory "Bug Tracking" section:

                    http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Configuration_Management/Bug_Tracking/

                    to discover that FogBUGZ (Joel Spolsky and company's bug tracker) has the
                    highest PageRank order. I remember that a short time back, it was listed
                    at the end with absolutely zero PageRank.

                    I think the reason is that Joel added a notice to each one of his "Joel on
                    Software" site pages, that reads:

                    <<<
                    My company, Fog Creek Software, has just released <link>FogBUGZ
                    3.0</link>, the latest
                    version of our innovative system for managing the software development
                    process. Check it out now!
                    >>>

                    And since many of the pages have a high PageRank, it eventually, made
                    FogBUGZ very high too.

                    You could say it is a direct (albeit perfectly honest and perhaps
                    innocent) Google poisoning.

                    Regards,

                    Shlomi Fish

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                    Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

                    There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1
                    chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you.
                  • Nadav Har'El
                    ... Why is that poisoning ? In fact, it s exactly what Google meant to do, and what people expect of it! Assuming many people respect that Joel s site and
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 4, 2003
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                      On Fri, Apr 04, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] The "Joel on Software" site as a Google Bomb":
                      > And since many of the pages have a high PageRank, it eventually, made
                      > FogBUGZ very high too.
                      >
                      > You could say it is a direct (albeit perfectly honest and perhaps
                      > innocent) Google poisoning.

                      Why is that "poisoning"? In fact, it's exactly what Google meant to do,
                      and what people expect of it!

                      Assuming many people respect that Joel's site and link to it, it is safe
                      to say this site has a high reputation. When a site with high reputation
                      links to something, it is pretty safe to assume this is a *good* link,
                      because, if that site routinely linked to crappy sites, it will loose
                      its reputation! This is the idea behind Google, it's not some sort of an
                      unfortunate side-effect.

                      Similarly, if Microsoft linked to some page, it would be safe it is an
                      "important" page to find (however much you dislike Microsoft), probably
                      more important than a page linked from within my own homepage.

                      P.S. Bugzilla is probably suffering from its own "trademark". I would guess
                      that bugzilla is more popular than some of the other things that Google
                      turns up, but many please link to "bugzilla", not bothering to call it a
                      "bug tracking system" explicitly (thinking that everyone knows what bugzilla
                      is), which lower's bugzilla's success when searching for "bug tracking"
                      (at least, that is my guess)

                      --
                      Nadav Har'El | Saturday, Apr 5 2003, 3 Nisan 5763
                      nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                      Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |The road to good intentions is paved with
                      http://nadav.harel.org.il |hell.
                    • Shlomi Fish
                      ... The problem is that Spolsky placed links to FogBugz on all of the page of his site, some of them may be considered as distinct entities by Google, each
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 4, 2003
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                        On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:

                        > On Fri, Apr 04, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] The "Joel on Software" site as a Google Bomb":
                        > > And since many of the pages have a high PageRank, it eventually, made
                        > > FogBUGZ very high too.
                        > >
                        > > You could say it is a direct (albeit perfectly honest and perhaps
                        > > innocent) Google poisoning.
                        >
                        > Why is that "poisoning"? In fact, it's exactly what Google meant to do,
                        > and what people expect of it!
                        >
                        > Assuming many people respect that Joel's site and link to it, it is safe
                        > to say this site has a high reputation. When a site with high reputation
                        > links to something, it is pretty safe to assume this is a *good* link,
                        > because, if that site routinely linked to crappy sites, it will loose
                        > its reputation! This is the idea behind Google, it's not some sort of an
                        > unfortunate side-effect.
                        >

                        The problem is that Spolsky placed links to FogBugz on all of the page of
                        his site, some of them may be considered as distinct entities by Google,
                        each with its own page rank. Now, since many such pages are linked to from
                        many places that refer to them (mailing lists posts, etc.), then as a
                        whole it creates an undesirable effect of over-page-ranking FogBUGZ.

                        > Similarly, if Microsoft linked to some page, it would be safe it is an
                        > "important" page to find (however much you dislike Microsoft), probably
                        > more important than a page linked from within my own homepage.
                        >

                        The question is what would happen if Microsoft linked to some page from
                        every page of their site... I shudder to think about it.

                        > P.S. Bugzilla is probably suffering from its own "trademark". I would guess
                        > that bugzilla is more popular than some of the other things that Google
                        > turns up, but many please link to "bugzilla", not bothering to call it a
                        > "bug tracking system" explicitly (thinking that everyone knows what bugzilla
                        > is), which lower's bugzilla's success when searching for "bug tracking"
                        > (at least, that is my guess)
                        >

                        Interesting. Even though according to:

                        http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Configuration_Management/Bug_Tracking/Free/

                        and

                        http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Configuration_Management/Bug_Tracking/

                        it still has a higher PageRank than FogBUGZ. At least for now... ;-)

                        I think that "bugzilla" has practically become a synonym for a bug tracking
                        system, due to the popularity and importance of the Bugzilla-based ones.
                        (it is used by Mozilla and related projects, KDE, GNOME/Gtk and many
                        others). And it's true that it does not seem to be very high on a search
                        for "bug tracker" or "bug tracking". At least not the deployable product
                        itself.

                        Regards,

                        Shlomi Fish



                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                        Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

                        My opinions may seem crazy, but they all make sense. Insane sense, but
                        sense nonetheless.
                      • Omer Musaev
                        ... I second that. The way the links to FogBugz are pushed into standard footer of Joel s pages it looks more like banners than like links page. BTW, to find
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 5, 2003
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                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                          > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 1:54 AM
                          > To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [hackers-il] The "Joel on Software" site as a Google Bomb
                          >
                          > On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:
                          >
                          > > On Fri, Apr 04, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] The "Joel on
                          > Software" site as a Google Bomb":
                          > > > And since many of the pages have a high PageRank, it eventually, made
                          > > > FogBUGZ very high too.
                          > > >
                          > > > You could say it is a direct (albeit perfectly honest and perhaps
                          > > > innocent) Google poisoning.
                          > >
                          > > Why is that "poisoning"? In fact, it's exactly what Google meant to do,
                          > > and what people expect of it!
                          > >
                          > > Assuming many people respect that Joel's site and link to it, it is safe
                          > > to say this site has a high reputation. When a site with high reputation
                          > > links to something, it is pretty safe to assume this is a *good* link,
                          > > because, if that site routinely linked to crappy sites, it will loose
                          > > its reputation! This is the idea behind Google, it's not some sort of an
                          > > unfortunate side-effect.
                          > >
                          >
                          > The problem is that Spolsky placed links to FogBugz on all of the page of
                          > his site, some of them may be considered as distinct entities by Google,
                          > each with its own page rank. Now, since many such pages are linked to from
                          > many places that refer to them (mailing lists posts, etc.), then as a
                          > whole it creates an undesirable effect of over-page-ranking FogBUGZ.

                          I second that. The way the links to FogBugz are pushed into standard footer
                          of Joel's pages it looks more like banners than like "links page."

                          BTW, to find out what links Google used to count the rating of the page, you
                          can use the "link:" API:

                          link:http://www.fogcreek.com/FogBUGZ/

                          This will acitvate a search within the pages that contain a link to the
                          page. Cool.

                          [ snip ]

                          > I think that "bugzilla" has practically become a synonym for a bug
                          > tracking
                          > system, due to the popularity and importance of the Bugzilla-based ones.
                          > (it is used by Mozilla and related projects, KDE, GNOME/Gtk and many
                          > others). And it's true that it does not seem to be very high on a search
                          > for "bug tracker" or "bug tracking". At least not the deployable product
                          > itself.

                          I think that "bugzilla" hasn't become a synonym, but a brand name within an
                          open-source developers. In Mercury, for example, it isn't bugzilla that
                          represents all bugtracking software, but "Test Director" - a Mercury
                          product.

                          Thus, I think that you're right wrt open-source developers, but wrong wrt
                          mainstream commercial software. Thus, a company looking for a bugtracking
                          software and not aware of bugzilla will more probably find FogBUGZ and not
                          bugzilla.

                          Thus, if FogBugz will "overrank" bugzilla overall, Joel will succeed in
                          using the Google effect for a marketing campaign with extreme
                          performance/price ratio.

                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > Shlomi Fish
                          >

                          --
                          Omer Mussaev
                          Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D
                          Mercury Interactive


                          ________________________________________________________________________
                          This email has been scanned for all viruses.

                          Mercury Interactive Corporation
                          Optimizing Business Processes tom Maximize Business Results

                          http://www.merc-int.com
                          ________________________________________________________________________
                        • Shlomi Fish
                          ... Interesting, it contains a lot of junk , the vast majority of it from Joel s site. Lots of translations and translated articles. Wonderous are the ways of
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 6, 2003
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                            On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Omer Musaev wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                            > > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 1:54 AM
                            > > To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: Re: [hackers-il] The "Joel on Software" site as a Google Bomb
                            > >
                            > > On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > On Fri, Apr 04, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] The "Joel on
                            > > Software" site as a Google Bomb":
                            > > > > And since many of the pages have a high PageRank, it eventually, made
                            > > > > FogBUGZ very high too.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > You could say it is a direct (albeit perfectly honest and perhaps
                            > > > > innocent) Google poisoning.
                            > > >
                            > > > Why is that "poisoning"? In fact, it's exactly what Google meant to do,
                            > > > and what people expect of it!
                            > > >
                            > > > Assuming many people respect that Joel's site and link to it, it is safe
                            > > > to say this site has a high reputation. When a site with high reputation
                            > > > links to something, it is pretty safe to assume this is a *good* link,
                            > > > because, if that site routinely linked to crappy sites, it will loose
                            > > > its reputation! This is the idea behind Google, it's not some sort of an
                            > > > unfortunate side-effect.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > The problem is that Spolsky placed links to FogBugz on all of the page of
                            > > his site, some of them may be considered as distinct entities by Google,
                            > > each with its own page rank. Now, since many such pages are linked to from
                            > > many places that refer to them (mailing lists posts, etc.), then as a
                            > > whole it creates an undesirable effect of over-page-ranking FogBUGZ.
                            >
                            > I second that. The way the links to FogBugz are pushed into standard footer
                            > of Joel's pages it looks more like banners than like "links page."
                            >
                            > BTW, to find out what links Google used to count the rating of the page, you
                            > can use the "link:" API:
                            >
                            > link:http://www.fogcreek.com/FogBUGZ/
                            >
                            > This will acitvate a search within the pages that contain a link to the
                            > page. Cool.
                            >

                            Interesting, it contains a lot of "junk", the vast majority of it from
                            Joel's site. Lots of translations and translated articles. Wonderous are
                            the ways of Google's Page Rank system.

                            > [ snip ]
                            >
                            > > I think that "bugzilla" has practically become a synonym for a bug
                            > > tracking
                            > > system, due to the popularity and importance of the Bugzilla-based ones.
                            > > (it is used by Mozilla and related projects, KDE, GNOME/Gtk and many
                            > > others). And it's true that it does not seem to be very high on a search
                            > > for "bug tracker" or "bug tracking". At least not the deployable product
                            > > itself.
                            >
                            > I think that "bugzilla" hasn't become a synonym, but a brand name within an
                            > open-source developers. In Mercury, for example, it isn't bugzilla that
                            > represents all bugtracking software, but "Test Director" - a Mercury
                            > product.
                            >

                            Chen told me about it. She said she tried FogBUGZ and that Mercury's
                            product was much better. She said about its ability to write triggers
                            using VBA, which sounds very cool and somewhat useful if you are a
                            serious developer. BTW, I could not find anything too relevant for it in
                            dmoz.org or the Google Directory.

                            I now noticed that the Google Directory has been updated to reflect my
                            changes to the Solitaire category. It's about time it was updated, because
                            it's been very out of date. Google Dir is a mirror of dmoz.

                            > Thus, I think that you're right wrt open-source developers, but wrong wrt
                            > mainstream commercial software. Thus, a company looking for a bugtracking
                            > software and not aware of bugzilla will more probably find FogBUGZ and not
                            > bugzilla.
                            >

                            Probably.

                            > Thus, if FogBugz will "overrank" bugzilla overall, Joel will succeed in
                            > using the Google effect for a marketing campaign with extreme
                            > performance/price ratio.
                            >

                            Ack.

                            I seriously doubt that FogBUGZ or any other commercial software poses a
                            threat to Bugzilla or whatever open-source product will supercede it as
                            the next bug tracker. It is true that at the moment, the software market
                            at large is dominated by commercial solutions (Windows and other Microsoft
                            products, etc.) and not by open-source ones, except perhaps for Apache,
                            and other such Internet servers.

                            An open-source software of good quality and good management, however, is
                            something that usually can't be threatened by a commercial software, at least
                            not in the Linux and UNIX worlds. Even Windows, while being more
                            successful than Linux at present, is not a threat to it, because the
                            existing user-base will not completely switch to Windows, and more new
                            happy users are gradually added. I'm not talking about Legal threats just
                            competitive ones. (Legallobable is a different issue altogether)

                            In regard to FogBugz, many executives who are looking for a good bug
                            tracking solution will be appaled either by the fact that it runs on IIS,
                            or by the fact that it is written in VBScript. (the first due to security
                            and reliability and the second due to the fact that it's hard to take it
                            seriously this way). So we can expect people who are looking for a UNIX or
                            Linux solution to choose something else entirely, bugzilla or otherwise.

                            Regards,

                            Shlomi Fish

                            > >
                            > > Regards,
                            > >
                            > > Shlomi Fish
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Omer Mussaev
                            > Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D
                            > Mercury Interactive
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________________________________________________
                            > This email has been scanned for all viruses.
                            >
                            > Mercury Interactive Corporation
                            > Optimizing Business Processes tom Maximize Business Results
                            >
                            > http://www.merc-int.com
                            > ________________________________________________________________________
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                            >



                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                            Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/

                            My opinions may seem crazy, but they all make sense. Insane sense, but
                            sense nonetheless.
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