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Re: [hackers-il] "Lots of bad IT Workers" ?

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  • Nadav Har'El
    ... You have to put experience in context. The Shlomi Fish of 1997 was (and I m just making up a story here, please don t flame me too much if I get the facts
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 4, 2003
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      On Sat, Jan 04, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] "Lots of bad IT Workers" ?":
      > Are there still enough jobs for competent IT workers. When I started
      > working in Elpas (my first real job as a programmer) which was during the
      > start of the IT boom (1997 or so), I only had experience programming with
      > C, Basic and VBA on my home computer. Yet, I was still competent enough to
      > be of value to them. Afterwards, when I switched jobs to Cortext, a
      > web-publishing house based on UNIX and Perl, I had to learn all about UNIX
      > and Perl there, yet I was still able to get my job done. I feel that I
      > have greatly improved since this point in every area I did back then.
      >
      > Do you think the Shlomi Fish of 1997 could still find a job today?

      You have to put experience in context.
      The Shlomi Fish of 1997 was (and I'm just making up a story here, please don't
      flame me too much if I get the facts wrong) a young guy, who did not think too
      highly of himself, and his (relatively) little knowledge was consistent with
      him being smart (it's not that he learned slowly, he just had only a few years
      to learn). So an employer was faced with a cheap smart employee: don't sound
      too bad.

      But the problem is that "we" (people involved in hiring other people, and for
      the last year I'm no longer one of those "we") don't just get "Shlomi Fishes
      of 1997" - we also get people who think highly of themselves and demand high
      salaries, but know very little.

      We got people who've been around computers for several years (e.g., spent the
      last 3 years in the Technion's CS department) and yet the amount of knowledge
      that has rubbed on them appears to be tiny.

      Imagine I talk to someone who has dwelt in computers and had all the resources
      (computers, books, network, people) imaginable, and still didn't learn
      anything beyond what was spoon-fed to him in class (and even that is
      questionable when he comes in with a relatively low GPA). Why should I believe
      that in my company this guy will be different? Maybe after 3 more years
      he'll work in (say) Linux he still wouldn't know anything I (his boss) did
      not explicitly tell him to learn (and it's not hypothetical, I know such
      people). Maybe it means this guy is not actually interested in computers,
      but is in it only for the money?

      Similarly, when you talk to a person who has just finished some course
      converting them from another profession to computers, the details are very
      important. I've seen, for example, two excellent people, with a biology
      degree, that have taken a CS course and successfully switched to computers;
      Both of them took serious 1-year courses (tought by Technion professors, and
      containing serious CS courses, not just C and HTML), got genuinely interested
      in their new profession, and their employers did well on gambling on them.
      But you get other people, who tell you how much they hate computers ("I
      prefer to work with people"), barely know anything ("Where's 'The Internet'?
      Isn't it some building in America?"), and don't care enough to change that.
      Nobody wants an employee like that.

      Returning to the Shlomi of 1997 for a moment, there is one downside that
      prevents some employers from employing "rookies" like you describe, even
      if they show a great potential and are very smart. This happens in three
      cases:
      1. The company (e.g., start-up) only has plans for the next year. It has
      no use for somebody who will only start really helping the team after
      6 months. It looks for people who can start doing real work NOW, and
      pours money on them.
      2. The company already puts a very high load on the low-level managers or its
      good technical employees. Employing a rookie means more load on the low-
      level managers who'll need to show him the ropes, or on the good
      technical employees who'll need to teach him what he still doesn't know.
      In some situtation, these employees are better off spending that time on
      completing the job.
      I've seen a *very smart* part-time-employee student get fired, for exectly
      this reason.
      3. In some types of job markets, you face a high risk of the rookie bailing
      out on you just when he has finally got enough experience to be truely
      useful. The army has a very simple solution for this problem: sign on
      people for 6 (!) years.
      In the job market of 3 years ago, I even saw a guy leave his job for a
      better paying one, after 2 weeks (!) in the job...

      > I know of a fellow student who graduated from EE (maslul "handasat
      > machshevim vetochna") in the Technion and could not find a job because he
      > claimed workplaces look for someone with more experience, and he has none
      > except for his studies. I know him and he's a bright, and talented guide,
      > albeit does indeed not have much real-world experience. I suggested him to
      > take on open-source development while he's unemployed so he'll have
      > something impressive to put in his resume/.

      Why doesn't he have any experience other than his studies? Did he ever program
      for fun, whether free software or just stuff he'd written for himself? Did
      he program before he went to the Technion, or program for fun during his
      studies?

      If the answer to all of that is no, it might mean he came from a poor
      family and didn't have time during his studies. But it might also mean that
      he's not genuinely interested in computers. Since he can't offer any examples
      of his work, why should employers believe that option #2 isn't the truth?

      This is why personal connections is the best way to get jobs. A personal
      friend of yours knows exactly what you're really worth, and doesn't have
      to make guesses based on your previous experience.

      > I know of an American fellow, named Jay Glascoe, who has an M.Sc. in
      > mathematics, and know Linux, C, C++, Perl and Python well, and could not

      The guy you describe certainly sounds better than a lot of people who do
      find jobs.
      Maybe there are other circumstances you don't know. Maybe this guy is
      asking for too much money, has other unrealistic expectations, or isn't
      as good as you believe. Maybe he's trying at the wrong companies. Or maybe
      he has incredibly bad luck.

      > Have Hetz ben Hamo eventually find a job? He certainly knows Linux
      > in-and-out, but naturally is not a qualified programmer.

      I don't want to discuss a specific person (whom I don't know well), so
      I'll say something general based on your premise that he is not a
      "qualified programmer" (I assume you mean he's not a good programmer,
      because there is no 'programming degree' to qualify).

      Indeed why should someone who's not a good programmer, and not showing the
      potential of being one, be hired to do programming???

      It's like I'm really crappy in sports. Do you think that if I hang enough
      time around soccer fields and in soccer mailing lists, and know the "ins and
      outs" of soccer, Maccabbi Haifa will hire me to replace Yaakubo Igabini?
      Of course not, I'll have to show some prospects of good soccer-*playing*, not
      just interest in soccer-watching and talking about it...

      But in the situation about, I might be able to get a job doing soccer-team
      PR, or something similar.

      > At the moment, I'm completely confused. And I'm almost sure there are many
      > mediocre IT workers who have jobs now. (refer to the Linux-IL thread about
      > the Israeli web-sites).

      Judging from what goes on around me, the number of mediocre IT workers who
      are getting high salaries (not kids who do web sites) is rapidly decreasing,
      being replaced by much better (technically) people brought from other
      companies. But, again from personal experience, this does not always make
      working in such an "improved" company more enjoyable.

      --
      Nadav Har'El | Saturday, Jan 4 2003, 2 Shevat 5763
      nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
      Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I started out with nothing... I still
      http://nadav.harel.org.il |have most of it.
    • voguemaster
      ... If it were that simple. Sometimes (and this has happened to me) a friend s colleagues demand to see what you re worth too. A good friend of mine tried to
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 4, 2003
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        04/01/03 18:50:38, Nadav Har'El <nyh@...> wrote:

        >This is why personal connections is the best way to get jobs. A personal
        >friend of yours knows exactly what you're really worth, and doesn't have
        >to make guesses based on your previous experience.
        >
        >It's like I'm really crappy in sports. Do you think that if I hang enough

        If it were that simple. Sometimes (and this has happened to me) a friend's
        colleagues demand to see what you're worth too. A good friend of mine
        tried to set me a job at his company but the head of the development team
        thought that I didn't have enough experience in programming with DirectX
        so they eventually took someone else for the job.

        It didn't matter that I had already more than 2 years of experience in programming
        (on Linux, but still) and had done some stuff with DirectX. They wanted someone
        who knew exactly what to do and needn't be taught anything. So even though
        I had a good chance because a friend introduced me, it's not always enough.

        Eli

        "There's so many different worlds
        So many different suns
        And we have just one world
        But we live in different ones.."

        - Dire Straits - "Brothers in Arms"
      • Nadav Har'El
        ... It also depends how this friend of yours introduced you. He could have said, hey, I know this unemployed guy that I used to play basketball with, that
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 4, 2003
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          On Sat, Jan 04, 2003, voguemaster wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] "Lots of bad IT Workers" ?":
          >...
          > who knew exactly what to do and needn't be taught anything. So even though
          > I had a good chance because a friend introduced me, it's not always enough.

          It also depends how this friend of yours introduced you. He could have said,

          "hey, I know this unemployed guy that I used to play basketball with, that
          supposedly knows Linux (or whatever) - maybe you can take a look at his CV?"

          and he could have said

          "Wow, I know this great Linux (or whatever) person, he's probably one of the
          best in his field in the country, and I heard that he's looking for new
          opportunities. This guy taught me everything I know! He's exactly what we
          need. He's an incredibly smart guy. We must have this guy at any cost!"

          Also, there's a difference between you approaching your friends to pass your
          CV around (from my experience, these friends, not being HR people, will never
          really know what to do with those CVs), and when your friends remember you as
          the "really good guy in ..." and they call on you when they hear the company
          is looking for that thing you're good in.

          That being said, I admit getting contacts through friends doesn't always
          work. I had a bad experience like that once, where a friend was eager to
          get me to work for his company, but since it was a big company (one of the
          biggest hightech companies in Israel) I had to pass through several annoying
          layers of managers and interviewers who didn't know anything about me,
          standardized tests, and so on - they dragged me for a few weeks until I got
          annoyed and told them I wasn't interested any more, and that I had plenty of
          other choices at that time.

          --
          Nadav Har'El | Saturday, Jan 4 2003, 2 Shevat 5763
          nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
          Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I would give my right arm to be
          http://nadav.harel.org.il |ambidextrous.
        • guy keren
          ... there are - for people with certain types of desired qualifications. if you have deep knowledge in some wanted area, which has too few good people,
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 4, 2003
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            On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote:

            > Are there still enough jobs for competent IT workers.

            there are - for people with certain types of 'desired' qualifications.

            if you have deep knowledge in some wanted area, which has too few good
            people, you're likely to be able to get a job (or choose amongst several
            jobs - depending on how many companies deal with this area).

            not all companies are looking for employees - but there are quite a few
            that do. some due to etting larger, and some - in order to replace
            previous employees, who are either too costly (still getting the crazy
            salaries from their contracts from 1999-2000) and/or not good enough to
            keep.

            during the bad years (1998-2000) - companies had to accept people for
            unrealistic salaries (mostly in start ups) or accept people who were lousy
            at programming (mostly in large companies, that needed to recruite people
            en-masse). the good thing about those years, is that some wealth was
            spread to a larger group of people (investors lost, certain employees won
            that money - no money was _realy_ lost altogether, except for virtual
            money - it mostly just switched hands).

            currently, companies are doing the ugly move, of firing people that cost
            alot, while recruiting people that are now free in the market, with a
            lower salary, and often a better throughput. gone are the days where you
            could see a mediocre programmer becoming a team leader after 1-2 years in
            the field, and similar symptoms.

            so, it is still possible to find a job - and even people with very little
            experience can manage to find a job - provided that they are persistent in
            their search (i know someone that took about half a year to find a job
            just now - and almost gave up in the middle) and have some qualificatoins
            that distinguish them from others, and have (or develope) good
            interviewing skills. by the way, even during the crazy years, some people
            found it hard to find a job. at my former company, we got a guy that had a
            2nd degree in some medical area, that did a 'transition course' in sela -
            and it took him about half a year to find a job.

            and, yes, _good_ experience counts for quite a lot. it allows you to do
            your work with much less bugs, much less not-understanding the
            requirements, and much less time. thought this is mostly a matter of
            character - a few (rare) people come with the right character to their
            first job. most people gain the require characteristics during them
            gaining work experience, and often because of being exposed to other
            people's methods of working.

            p.s. note that when i say 'knowledge in a certain area', i am not talking
            about 'being a very good software engineer'. companies prefer now people
            with real knwoledge with specific technologies and products, and
            often under-estimate good software engineering skills - which IMO are
            harder to aquire, and are rarer. examples? you have good knowledge of the
            linux kernel, and programming for it - you'll easily and quickly get a job
            if you look properly (i.e. not that many companies deal with it to find
            via news paper adds - but enough do relative to the little ammount of
            qualified people). the same goes for linux system programming. the same
            goes to software verification (very few companies realy deal with it - IBM
            And intel to name the two i know of, in israel - but also very few people
            got the proper background for this). the same probably goes to embedded
            systems development in linux, vxworks and few other systems.

            thus, i'd suggest you choose an area or two in which you want to become a
            real expert - and start learning them deeply. it'll help you alot.

            --
            guy

            "For world domination - press 1,
            or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy
          • Shlomi Fish
            ... This is more or less an accurate description of me than. I got the job by using contacts: my father was a good friend of that start-up s CEO, and he
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 4, 2003
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              On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote:

              > On Sat, Jan 04, 2003, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] "Lots of bad IT Workers" ?":
              > > Are there still enough jobs for competent IT workers. When I started
              > > working in Elpas (my first real job as a programmer) which was during the
              > > start of the IT boom (1997 or so), I only had experience programming with
              > > C, Basic and VBA on my home computer. Yet, I was still competent enough to
              > > be of value to them. Afterwards, when I switched jobs to Cortext, a
              > > web-publishing house based on UNIX and Perl, I had to learn all about UNIX
              > > and Perl there, yet I was still able to get my job done. I feel that I
              > > have greatly improved since this point in every area I did back then.
              > >
              > > Do you think the Shlomi Fish of 1997 could still find a job today?
              >
              > You have to put experience in context.
              > The Shlomi Fish of 1997 was (and I'm just making up a story here, please don't
              > flame me too much if I get the facts wrong) a young guy, who did not think too
              > highly of himself, and his (relatively) little knowledge was consistent with
              > him being smart (it's not that he learned slowly, he just had only a few years
              > to learn). So an employer was faced with a cheap smart employee: don't sound
              > too bad.
              >

              This is more or less an accurate description of me than. I got the job by
              using contacts: my father was a good friend of that start-up's CEO, and he
              recommended they give me an interview. I went to the interview, and they
              eventually decided to hire me. I eventually turned out to be their chief
              programmer after the main programmer, a strange bird who started playing
              computer games all day was fired, and I started doing his job anyways.

              > But the problem is that "we" (people involved in hiring other people, and for
              > the last year I'm no longer one of those "we") don't just get "Shlomi Fishes
              > of 1997" - we also get people who think highly of themselves and demand high
              > salaries, but know very little.
              >
              > We got people who've been around computers for several years (e.g., spent the
              > last 3 years in the Technion's CS department) and yet the amount of knowledge
              > that has rubbed on them appears to be tiny.
              >
              > Imagine I talk to someone who has dwelt in computers and had all the resources
              > (computers, books, network, people) imaginable, and still didn't learn
              > anything beyond what was spoon-fed to him in class (and even that is
              > questionable when he comes in with a relatively low GPA). Why should I believe
              > that in my company this guy will be different? Maybe after 3 more years
              > he'll work in (say) Linux he still wouldn't know anything I (his boss) did
              > not explicitly tell him to learn (and it's not hypothetical, I know such
              > people). Maybe it means this guy is not actually interested in computers,
              > but is in it only for the money?
              >
              > Similarly, when you talk to a person who has just finished some course
              > converting them from another profession to computers, the details are very
              > important. I've seen, for example, two excellent people, with a biology
              > degree, that have taken a CS course and successfully switched to computers;
              > Both of them took serious 1-year courses (tought by Technion professors, and
              > containing serious CS courses, not just C and HTML), got genuinely interested
              > in their new profession,and their employers did well on gambling on them.
              > But you get other people, who tell you how much they hate computers ("I
              > prefer to work with people"), barely know anything ("Where's 'The Internet'?
              > Isn't it some building in America?"), and don't careenough to change that.
              > Nobody wants an employee like that.
              >

              True.

              > Returning to the Shlomi of 1997 for a moment, there is one downside that
              > prevents some employers from employing "rookies" like you describe, even
              > if they show a great potential and are verysmart. This happens in three
              > cases:
              > 1. The company (e.g., start-up) only has plans for the next year. It has
              > no use for somebody who will only start really helping the team after
              > 6 months. It looks for people who can start doing real work NOW, and
              > pours money on them.
              > 2. The company already puts a very high load on the low-level managers or its
              > good technical employees. Employing a rookie means more load on the low-
              > level managers who'll need to show him the ropes, or on the good
              > technical employees who'll need to teach him what he still doesn't know.
              > In some situtation, these employees are better off spending that time on
              > completing the job.
              > I've seen a *very smart* part-time-employee student get fired, for exectly
              > this reason.
              > 3. In some types of job markets, you face a high risk of the rookie bailing
              > out on you just when he has finally got enough experience to be truely
              > useful. The army has a very simple solution for this problem: sign on
              > people for 6 (!) years.
              > In the job market of 3 years ago, I even saw a guy leave his job for a
              > better paying one, after 2 weeks (!) in the job...
              >

              Understood.

              > > I know of a fellow student who graduated from EE (maslul "handasat
              > > machshevim vetochna") in the Technion and could not find a job because he
              > > claimed workplaces look for someone with more experience, and he has none
              > > except for his studies. I know him and he's a bright, and talented guide,
              > > albeit does indeed not have much real-world experience. I suggested him to
              > > take on open-source development while he's unemployed so he'll have
              > > something impressive to put in his resume/.
              >
              > Why doesn't he have any experience other than his studies? Did he ever program
              > for fun, whether free software or just stuff he'd written for himself? Did
              > he program before he went to the Technion, or program for fun during his
              > studies?
              >
              > If the answer to all of that is no, it might mean he came from a poor
              > family and didn't have time during his studies. But it might also mean that
              > he's not genuinely interested in computers. Since he can't offer any examples
              > of his work, why should employers believe that option #2 isn't the truth?
              >

              Actually, I think he mainly focused on his studies (Technion students are
              given enough programming exercises), and just wanted to have non-computer
              related fun (which is OK). Studying in the Electrical Engineering
              department is very hard consumes a lot of time and concentration. I
              somehow managed to find time to hack on free software, for E-mail
              correspondence, reading Linux resources etc. Many times, it is done before
              doing homework.

              I don't think is family his poor. He seems like middle-class to me. Like I
              said, he is a bright kid, and I'm sure he can learn new things if given
              the chance. As far as programming is concerned he is higher than the
              Shlomi Fish of 1997. As far as Electrical Engineering is concerned it is a
              difference of heaven and earth.

              Like I said, I recommended he works on open-source projects for the time
              being, to gain some experience. Not only can he put something impressive
              on his C.V., but he'll also be able to deal with a lot of real-world
              situations, code, and hacktivity.

              > This is why personal connections is the best way to get jobs. A personal
              > friend of yours knows exactly what you're really worth, and doesn't have
              > to make guesses based on your previous experience.
              >

              I noticed this myself in several occasions. The only serious job I did not
              get out of personal connections was Smart-Link, where I was somehow
              invited to a job interview, they were impressed by me, and accepted me. I
              did not anyone from there up to this point.

              > > I know of an American fellow, named Jay Glascoe, who has an M.Sc. in
              > > mathematics, and know Linux, C, C++, Perland Python well, and could not
              >
              > The guy you describe certainly sounds better than a lot of people who do
              > find jobs.
              > Maybe there are other circumstances you don't know. Maybe this guy is
              > asking for too much money, has other unrealistic expectations, or isn't
              > as good as you believe. Maybe he's trying at the wrong companies. Or maybe
              > he has incredibly bad luck.
              >

              I don't think he is asking for too much money. At the moment, he is
              unemployed and will probably accept any job with a reasonable payment. He
              sent me a code he wrote in Python that worked pretty well. I did not look
              at the code too closely, but he also did things the hard way, and parsed
              the output of fc-solve text-wise. At the moment he's trying at any company
              that gives him a job interview.

              In the past week-end I was able to get him 3 job opportunities. One of
              them may hopefully prove useful.

              > > Have Hetz ben Hamo eventually find a job? He certainly knows Linux
              > > in-and-out, but naturally is not a qualified programmer.
              >
              > I don't want to discuss a specific person (whom I don't know well), so
              > I'll say something general based on your premise that he is not a
              > "qualified programmer" (I assume you mean he's not a good programmer,
              > because there is no 'programming degree' to qualify).
              >
              > Indeed why should someone who's not a good programmer, and not showing the
              > potential of being one, be hired to do programming???
              >
              > It's like I'm really crappy in sports. Do you think that if I hang enough
              > time around soccer fields and in soccer mailing lists, and know the "ins and
              > outs" of soccer, Maccabbi Haifa will hire me to replace Yaakubo Igabini?
              > Of course not, I'll have to show some prospects of good soccer-*playing*, not
              > just interest in soccer-watching and talking about it...
              >
              > But in the situation about, I might be able to get a job doing soccer-team
              > PR, or something similar.
              >

              Exactly. I think Hetz (judging by the knowledge he shows in the mailing
              list) can be a good Q&A person, or a system administrator, or something
              like that. Maybe his problem is that he focuses too much on getting the
              latest Linux news, instead of learning to program properly.

              > > At the moment, I'm completely confused. And I'm almost sure there are many
              > > mediocre IT workers who have jobs now. (refer to the Linux-IL thread about
              > > the Israeli web-sites).
              >
              > Judging from what goes on around me, the number of mediocre IT workers who
              > are getting high salaries (not kids who do web sites) is rapidly decreasing,
              > being replaced by much better (technically) people brought from other
              > companies. But, again from personal experience, this does not always make
              > working in such an "improved" company more enjoyable.
              >

              OK. Web-design is probably not very hard. When I did it I worked on UNIX,
              with hand-written HTML and Perl CGI scripts. I suppose learning HTML and
              ASP or HTML and PHP or other adequate combination is not that hard either.

              One problem my web-publishing company encountered is that we charged for
              designing a web-page, which we then hosted on our server, and then kept it
              there. I don't know if they charged for extra maintainance, but I suppose
              most web-design houses do (and should).

              Regards,

              Shlomi Fish

              > --
              > Nadav Har'El | Saturday, Jan 4 2003, 2 Shevat 5763
              > nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
              > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I started out with nothing... I still
              > http://nadav.harel.org.il |have most of it.
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              >
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              >
              >



              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
              Home E-mail: shlomif@...

              "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
              "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
            • Omer Musaev
              Omer Mussaev Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D Mercury Interactive ... From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@techst02.technion.ac.il] Sent: 5. januar 2003 09.58
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 5, 2003
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                Omer Mussaev
                Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D
                Mercury Interactive


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                Sent: 5. januar 2003 09.58
                To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [hackers-il] Re: "Lots of bad IT Workers" ?

                [ many text skipped ]
                SF> OK. Web-design is probably not very hard.

                Famous last words...


                SF> When I did it I worked on UNIX,
                SF> with hand-written HTML and Perl CGI scripts. I suppose learning HTML and
                SF> ASP or HTML and PHP or other adequate combination is not that hard
                SF> either.

                Yet there are J2EE technologies, which are hard. And there are Web Forms,
                which should be relatively easy, but the technology is new...

                Regards,

                Shlomi Fish


                Best regards,
                Omer Mussaev.
              • Shlomi Fish
                ... Indeed. CGI scripts can easily be made extremely exploitable. At least bare HTML is safe... for now. Regards, Shlomi Fish ... Shlomi Fish
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 5, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Omer Musaev wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Omer Mussaev
                  > Software Engineer, EMS team, APM R&D
                  > Mercury Interactive
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                  > Sent: 5. januar 2003 09.58
                  > To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: "Lots of bad IT Workers" ?
                  >
                  > [ many text skipped ]
                  > SF> OK. Web-design is probably not very hard.
                  >
                  > Famous last words...
                  >

                  Indeed. CGI scripts can easily be made extremely exploitable. At least
                  bare HTML is safe... for now.

                  Regards,

                  Shlomi Fish

                  >
                  > SF> When I did it I worked on UNIX,
                  > SF> with hand-written HTML and Perl CGI scripts. I suppose learning HTML and
                  > SF> ASP or HTML and PHP or other adequate combination is not that hard
                  > SF> either.
                  >
                  > Yet there are J2EE technologies, which are hard. And there are Web Forms,
                  > which should be relatively easy, but the technology is new...
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Shlomi Fish
                  >
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  > OmerMussaev.
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                  Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                  Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                  "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                  "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
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