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Ways to do it - Take 2

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  • Shlomi Fish
    I am posting this message here again, because I received only one (positive) reply. If you have an opinion about this article or some smart comment to make, or
    Message 1 of 14 , May 12, 2002
      I am posting this message here again, because I received only one
      (positive) reply. If you have an opinion about this article or some smart
      comment to make, or something to add - please post it here or send it to
      me in private E-mail. But I'd like to hear something.

      Here goes:

      --------

      Perl - There's more than one way to do it.

      C++ - There are 5 ways to do it, 3 out of which are not supposed to work.

      Visual Basic - The only way to do it is to use a third party component.

      ANSI C - There is usually one way to do it, but there's more than one way to
      optimize it.

      Java - There's barely one way to do it.

      Python - There's only one way to do it. The one true way of doing it.

      COBOL - The only way to do it is to use something else.

      Common LISP - There is a infinite series of ways to do it, increasing in
      elegance, and decreasing in legibility.

      Scheme - You have to chart either one of the ways to do it.

      Haskell - You can think of any number of ways to do it, but only one
      will have a reasonable time or space complexity.

      HTML - There are many ways to do it. Most of them should be avoided at all
      costs, and the other ones should better be precossed with something else.

      The C Preprocessor - There's not supposed to be a way to do it.

      Bash - There are several ways to do it. Now one has to find a way to decide
      which way to do it.

      C Shell - The only way to do it does not work.

      -------------

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish



      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
      Home E-mail: shlomif@...

      "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
      "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
    • guy keren
      ... sometimes, the lack of replies, is a reaction on its own merits... -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator. --
      Message 2 of 14 , May 13, 2002
        On Mon, 13 May 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote:

        > I am posting this message here again, because I received only one
        > (positive) reply. If you have an opinion about this article or some smart
        > comment to make, or something to add - please post it here or send it to
        > me in private E-mail. But I'd like to hear something.

        sometimes, the lack of replies, is a reaction on its own merits...

        --
        guy

        "For world domination - press 1,
        or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy
      • Arik Baratz
        hear hear. ... From: guy keren [mailto:choo@actcom.co.il] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:01 AM To: Hackers-IL Subject: Re: [hackers-il] Ways to do it - Take 2
        Message 3 of 14 , May 13, 2002
          hear hear.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: guy keren [mailto:choo@...]
          Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:01 AM
          To: Hackers-IL
          Subject: Re: [hackers-il] Ways to do it - Take 2



          On Mon, 13 May 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote:

          > I am posting this message here again, because I received only one
          > (positive) reply. If you have an opinion about this article or some smart
          > comment to make, or something to add - please post it here or send it to
          > me in private E-mail. But I'd like to hear something.

          sometimes, the lack of replies, is a reaction on its own merits...

          --
          guy

          "For world domination - press 1,
          or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy



          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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        • Shlomi Fish
          I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message about lack of replies . I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what he thinks the
          Message 4 of 14 , May 14, 2002
            I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message
            about "lack of replies". I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what he
            thinks the opinions of the list are. Then, Arik says "hear hear". And
            again, I cannot deduce his opinion about Guy's opinion, his opinion about
            Guy's opinion about the list's opinions, or his opinion about the original
            posting.

            Can you please be a bit more direct and clear? Also, please aboid
            collectivism and speak only for yourself. Whatever, I'll try to post this
            piece somewhere else like rec.humor.funny or use Perl (or Advogato ?).

            Regards,

            Shlomi Fish

            On Mon, 13 May 2002, Arik Baratz wrote:

            >
            > hear hear.
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: guy keren [mailto:choo@...]
            > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:01 AM
            > To: Hackers-IL
            > Subject: Re: Ways to do it - Take 2
            >
            >
            >
            > On Mon, 13 May 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote:
            >
            > > I am posting this message here again, because I received only one
            > > (positive) reply. If you have an opinion about this article or some smart
            > > comment to make, or something to add - please post it here or send it to
            > > me in private E-mail. But I'd like to hear something.
            >
            > sometimes, the lack of replies, is a reaction on its own merits...
            >
            > --
            > guy
            >
            > "For world domination - press 1,
            > or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
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            > This email has been scanned by Port Authority.
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            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
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            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >



            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
            Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
            Home E-mail: shlomif@...

            "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
            "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
          • Muli Ben-Yehuda
            ... What s cryptic about it? Let us assume that each message sent to the list, N people read. Past experience shows that a certain percent of those N people,
            Message 5 of 14 , May 14, 2002
              On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:05:35AM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
              >
              > I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message
              > about "lack of replies". I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what
              > he

              What's cryptic about it?

              Let us assume that each message sent to the list, N people read. Past
              experience shows that a certain percent of those N people, which we
              shall denote by n, reply to the message. We can postulate that if a
              message is interesting, n will be relatively large. We can also
              postulate that if the message is irrelevant to the list (and the list
              members behave!), n will be relatively small.

              You posted a message twice. That means that N people have, with a high
              probability, seen it twice. Yet n, for those two message --> 0.

              guy says "sometimes, the lack of replies, is a reaction on its own
              merits". Translated into plain english, that means "sometime, the lack
              of replies, is a reaction on its own merits". Translated into even
              plainer english, that means "consider that if no one replies, maybe no
              one considered the post worthy of replying to?"

              Hope this helps,
              Muli.
              --
              The ill-formed Orange
              Fails to satisfy the eye: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/
              Segmentation fault. http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
            • Gilad Ben-Yossef
              ... Shlomi, Have you ever considered taking a Turing test? ;-) Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef http://benyossef.com Hail Eris! All Hail
              Message 6 of 14 , May 14, 2002
                On Wed, 2002-05-15 at 08:05, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                >
                > I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message
                > about "lack of replies". I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what he
                > thinks the opinions of the list are. Then, Arik says "hear hear". And
                > again, I cannot deduce his opinion about Guy's opinion, his opinion about
                > Guy's opinion about the list's opinions, or his opinion about the original
                > posting.

                Shlomi,

                Have you ever considered taking a Turing test? ;-)


                Gilad
                --
                Gilad Ben-Yossef <gilad@...>
                http://benyossef.com
                "Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!"
              • Shlomi Fish
                ... Sure I did. I sat at one point of an IRC channel, and someone tested me. Eventually it was discovered that I am a computer, but it turned out the
                Message 7 of 14 , May 14, 2002
                  On 15 May 2002, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:

                  > On Wed, 2002-05-15 at 08:05, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message
                  > > about "lack of replies". I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what he
                  > > thinks the opinions of the list are. Then, Arik says "hear hear". And
                  > > again, I cannot deduce his opinion about Guy's opinion, his opinion about
                  > > Guy's opinion about the list's opinions, or his opinion about the original
                  > > posting.
                  >
                  > Shlomi,
                  >
                  > Have you ever considered taking a Turing test? ;-)
                  >

                  <sarcasm>
                  Sure I did. I sat at one point of an IRC channel, and someone
                  tested me. Eventually it was discovered that I am a computer, but it
                  turned out the other side was an Eliza program. Strangely enough, I could
                  not detect that the latter fact was true.
                  </sarcasm>

                  Does this answer your question? Do you qualify naive or
                  common-sense-deprived as computer-like? Is the human mind not
                  a Turing-complete computer? Aren't humans equivalent to computers
                  according to Church's Thesis? Would it be possible for a human to make it
                  look like he is a computer? (say, by replying "yes" all the time)

                  Regards,

                  Shlomi Fish

                  There is no IGLU Cabal! None of them could pass the Turing test. But
                  stranegely enough a computer program they coded, could.

                  >
                  > Gilad
                  > --
                  > Gilad Ben-Yossef <gilad@...>
                  > http://benyossef.com
                  > "Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >



                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                  Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                  Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                  "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                  "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                • Shlomi Fish
                  ... OK. But a nice or very nice or not bad could go a long way. It s like giving a lecture, and nobody asks any questions. One cannot tell if they
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 15, 2002
                    On Wed, 15 May 2002, Adi Stav wrote:

                    > On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:46:21AM +0300, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:
                    > > On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:05:35AM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message
                    > > > about "lack of replies". I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what
                    > > > he
                    >
                    > Muli answered, but since we're deep in meta-land I thought I'd represent
                    > an alternative view.
                    >
                    > > Let us assume that each message sent to the list, N people read. Past
                    > > experience shows that a certain percent of those N people, which we
                    > > shall denote by n, reply to the message. We can postulate that if a
                    > > message is interesting, n will be relatively large.
                    >
                    > For me, this was not the case. The original message was not
                    > un-interesting -- on the contrary, I found it mildly amusing (which
                    > is good - it's better than most of the supposedly amusing stuff I read
                    > on the internet). Other people might have a different taste. But I found
                    > in the post nothing of interest to REPLY to. There was nothing for me to
                    > say anything about, and if I am to judge by the reactions, neither did
                    > anyone else.
                    >

                    OK. But a "nice" or "very nice" or "not bad" could go a long way. It's
                    like giving a lecture, and nobody asks any questions. One cannot tell if
                    they understand it or not.

                    > Now, this is a discussion group. I don't find anything inherently wrong
                    > with standalone presentations of wit, but in the end of the day something
                    > had better contribute towards good old fashioned discussion threads, at
                    > least on hackers-il.
                    >

                    I don't see it solely as a discussion group. It's also a place for
                    announcements, URLs, (like you said) hacks, and whatever else is
                    considered on-topic here. I believe this thread could have started a
                    discussion. Obviously I don't know many languages enough to parody them
                    the way I intended (pardon the pun), so people could have added more, or
                    added more entries to the list.

                    > Your SECOND post, on the other hand, was quite annoying, because
                    > essentially it placed the blame of not finding discussion interest in
                    > your post on US. You should look in yourself instead, and try to estimate
                    > possible reactions.

                    I did not try to put the blame on you. I was simply afraid that the
                    meta-thread of all those "wanna-be hackers" people shadowed my original
                    post as people were too involved in it. I was just trying to get some
                    discussion (or expression of opinions) going. Sorry if you were offended
                    in the process.

                    > If you use the list as body of critics for your work
                    > then you chose the wrong place, because you will need to be more and
                    > more aggressive just to actually get this criticism, and this criticism
                    > will therefore tend to be more and more artificially negative. Sounds
                    > familiar?
                    >

                    Understood. Do you know any computer forum where I can post such jokes and
                    get some reactions and commentary instead?

                    Regards,

                    Shlomi Fish

                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >



                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                    Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                    Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                    "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                    "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                  • Gilad Ben-Yossef
                    ... No. I qualify having trouble parsing communication because unawarness to implicit cues delivering social context as computer like. Sometimes what humans
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 15, 2002
                      On Wed, 2002-05-15 at 09:44, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                      > On 15 May 2002, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:
                      >
                      > > On Wed, 2002-05-15 at 08:05, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message
                      > > > about "lack of replies". I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what he
                      > > > thinks the opinions of the list are. Then, Arik says "hear hear". And
                      > > > again, I cannot deduce his opinion about Guy's opinion, his opinion about
                      > > > Guy's opinion about the list's opinions, or his opinion about the original
                      > > > posting.
                      > >
                      > > Shlomi,
                      > >
                      > > Have you ever considered taking a Turing test? ;-)
                      >
                      > Does this answer your question? Do you qualify naive or
                      > common-sense-deprived as computer-like?

                      No. I qualify "having trouble parsing communication because unawarness
                      to implicit cues delivering social context" as computer like. Sometimes
                      what humans *don't* say or how they say it is much more important then
                      what they do say.

                      Hackers are nutorious for missing out these sublte cues and getting
                      confused when they fail to parse the explicit communication because of
                      lack of the underlying context.

                      I am not trying to be flame you or some such all, you've asked for a
                      striaght out explenation and that's what I've supplied. As a matter of
                      fact I had the very same problem for a long time and sometiems still do.
                      The good news is you CAN learn this skill.

                      The even better news is that once you do you'll discover tha because
                      you've learned in an explicit aware manner what most people absorve with
                      their mother's milk you are much aware of these social cues and
                      sub-contexts then most people are. This can enable you to 'read' someone
                      you're communicating with and learn more then he or she wanted to reveal
                      about their motives and reasons for behaviour. Sometimes you can even
                      manipulate this hidden channel of communication to help you pursade
                      people by 'speaking' in the right way that will work with your
                      counterpart; sort of modern days 'speaking with tounges' from the bible.
                      note that I am NOT talking about saying somthing else to please the
                      lsitener - I am talking about saying it in a different way to please the
                      listener (presentation, not content). Don't be confused.

                      This is a very big aqnd interesting field that deals with the
                      dissmenation of ideas, memes, thought viruses and meta viruses. If
                      you're really interested, go read 'Snow Crash' and search for Neuro
                      Lingual Programing (Warning: there are a lot of bullshitters in this
                      field, just like anything else. Don't take anything for granted).

                      >
                      > There is no IGLU Cabal! None of them could pass the Turing test. But
                      > stranegely enough a computer program they coded, could.

                      LOL

                      --
                      Gilad Ben-Yossef <gilad@...>
                      Code mangler, senior coffee drinker and VP SIGSEGV
                      Qlusters ltd.

                      "To err is human. To realy fsck up you need a computer. For
                      those really large scale disastears, an SSI cluster is a must."
                    • Adi Stav
                      ... Muli answered, but since we re deep in meta-land I thought I d represent an alternative view. ... For me, this was not the case. The original message was
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 15, 2002
                        On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:46:21AM +0300, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:
                        > On Wed, May 15, 2002 at 08:05:35AM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message
                        > > about "lack of replies". I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what
                        > > he

                        Muli answered, but since we're deep in meta-land I thought I'd represent
                        an alternative view.

                        > Let us assume that each message sent to the list, N people read. Past
                        > experience shows that a certain percent of those N people, which we
                        > shall denote by n, reply to the message. We can postulate that if a
                        > message is interesting, n will be relatively large.

                        For me, this was not the case. The original message was not
                        un-interesting -- on the contrary, I found it mildly amusing (which
                        is good - it's better than most of the supposedly amusing stuff I read
                        on the internet). Other people might have a different taste. But I found
                        in the post nothing of interest to REPLY to. There was nothing for me to
                        say anything about, and if I am to judge by the reactions, neither did
                        anyone else.

                        Now, this is a discussion group. I don't find anything inherently wrong
                        with standalone presentations of wit, but in the end of the day something
                        had better contribute towards good old fashioned discussion threads, at
                        least on hackers-il.

                        Your SECOND post, on the other hand, was quite annoying, because
                        essentially it placed the blame of not finding discussion interest in
                        your post on US. You should look in yourself instead, and try to estimate
                        possible reactions. If you use the list as body of critics for your work
                        then you chose the wrong place, because you will need to be more and
                        more aggressive just to actually get this criticism, and this criticism
                        will therefore tend to be more and more artificially negative. Sounds
                        familiar?
                      • Arik Baratz
                        Why not write a program that will write either nice , very nice , or not bad ? It will not pass the turing test, but it will give you the kind of input you
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 15, 2002
                          Why not write a program that will write either 'nice', 'very nice', or 'not bad'? It will not pass the turing test, but it will give you the kind of input you are looking for. Why force our hand to supply it? I think rec.humor.funny would be a better audience to your jests.

                          -- Arik

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 9:06 AM
                          To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [hackers-il] Re: Cryptic Opinions [was RE: Ways to do it - Take 2]


                          [snip]

                          OK. But a "nice" or "very nice" or "not bad" could go a long way. It's
                          like giving a lecture, and nobody asks any questions. One cannot tell if
                          they understand it or not.



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                        • Shlomi Fish
                          ... OK. ... Ack. In any case, I like explicit and direct communication. I don t believe in cues, subtle hints, etc. because they can be misleading, and like
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 15, 2002
                            On 15 May 2002, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:

                            > On Wed, 2002-05-15 at 09:44, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                            > > On 15 May 2002, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > On Wed, 2002-05-15 at 08:05, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I fail to understand the two of you. First Guy gives me a cryptic message
                            > > > > about "lack of replies". I cannot deduce from it his opinion or what he
                            > > > > thinks the opinions of the list are. Then, Arik says "hear hear". And
                            > > > > again, I cannot deduce his opinion about Guy's opinion, his opinion about
                            > > > > Guy's opinion about the list's opinions, or his opinion about the original
                            > > > > posting.
                            > > >
                            > > > Shlomi,
                            > > >
                            > > > Have you ever considered taking a Turing test? ;-)
                            > >
                            > > Does this answer your question? Do you qualify naive or
                            > > common-sense-deprived as computer-like?
                            >
                            > No. I qualify "having trouble parsing communication because unawarness
                            > to implicit cues delivering social context" as computer like. Sometimes
                            > what humans *don't* say or how they say it is much more important then
                            > what they do say.
                            >

                            OK.

                            > Hackers are nutorious for missing out these sublte cues and getting
                            > confused when they fail to parse the explicit communication because of
                            > lack of the underlying context.
                            >
                            > I am not trying to be flame you or some such all, you've asked for a
                            > striaght out explenation and that's what I've supplied. As a matter of
                            > fact I had the very same problem for a long time and sometiems still do.
                            > The good news is you CAN learn this skill.
                            >

                            Ack.

                            In any case, I like explicit and direct communication. I don't believe in
                            cues, subtle hints, etc. because they can be misleading, and like you
                            said, requires training and an _explicit_ cognitive process of
                            interpreting them. If you want to convey a clear message, don't rely on
                            any of them. Say what you want to convey, and if you don't - don't wonder
                            that people don't understand you or misinterpret you.

                            > [ Snipped ... ]
                            > > There is no IGLU Cabal! None of them could pass the Turing test. But
                            > > stranegely enough a computer program they coded, could.
                            >
                            > LOL
                            >

                            Actually, it sounds paradoxical but I'm not sure it is. Somehow, humans
                            bootstrap their intelligence and consciousness from the time they are
                            babies, in which they are neither. Also, humans developed (or evolved)
                            various important cognitive skills, starting at a point that they were far
                            less capable. And now we have a hard time instructing a computer to do the
                            same.

                            Regards,

                            Shlomi Fish

                            > --
                            > Gilad Ben-Yossef <gilad@...>
                            > Code mangler, senior coffee drinker and VP SIGSEGV
                            > Qlusters ltd.
                            >
                            > "To err is human. To realy fsck up you need a computer. For
                            > those really large scale disastears, an SSI cluster is a must."
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >



                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                            Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                            Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                            "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                            "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                          • Arik Baratz
                            Shlomi Fish wrote: [snip] ... I m afraid that your beliefs in the matter means nothing to the people you interact with, at least in the first stages where they
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 15, 2002
                              Shlomi Fish wrote:

                              [snip]

                              > In any case, I like explicit and direct communication. I don't believe in
                              > cues, subtle hints, etc. because they can be misleading, and like you
                              > said, requires training and an _explicit_ cognitive process of
                              > interpreting them. If you want to convey a clear message, don't rely on
                              > any of them. Say what you want to convey, and if you don't - don't wonder
                              > that people don't understand you or misinterpret you.
                              >
                              I'm afraid that your beliefs in the matter means nothing to the people
                              you interact with, at least in the first stages where they don't know
                              you and have to create their first impression of you.

                              Although some people will appreciate your straightforward, direct and
                              unambiguous communications, others (the majority of people on the
                              planet, it seems) would not.

                              And by *purposely* ignoring the subliminal channel of your
                              communications, you not only open the door for misinterpretation, you
                              perpetuate the misinterpretation. You are transmitting something on that
                              channel, like it or not. By just ignoring it you may be more sincere. By
                              purposefully transmitting a stream of zeroes on that channel you deliver
                              a stong message of reluctance to adhere to the conventions of society,
                              and that message is received VERY badly by a high precentage of the
                              people around you. Subliminally, but strong enough for them not to like
                              you, or have a bad impression of you.

                              Maybe less so in the Technion, but the people who find themselves in the
                              Technion care much less about social conventions, by definition :-)

                              Gilad has stated the best solution IMHO - go learn NLP. I know it has
                              changed the way I look at life. I think NLP can be classified as actual
                              hacking. It's a skill for maniplating a system - for fun and/or profit.
                              Much like social engineering, it deals with wetware.

                              I still got a lot to learn myself, since I make a lot of mistakes daily.
                              At least I know when I do.

                              Take care.

                              -- Arik
                            • Chen Shapira
                              Please, if you want to discuss Shlomi s psychology (or anyone elses), do it off the list. If you have any general principles, explain them without telling
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 15, 2002
                                Please, if you want to discuss Shlomi's psychology (or anyone elses), do it
                                off the list.
                                If you have any general principles, explain them without telling other
                                people how to live their life.

                                You can alway open shrinks-il :-)

                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Arik Baratz [mailto:arikb@...]
                                > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:48 PM
                                > To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [hackers-il] Re: Re: Cryptic Opinions [was RE: Ways to do
                                > it - Take 2]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Shlomi Fish wrote:
                                >
                                > [snip]
                                >
                                > > In any case, I like explicit and direct communication. I
                                > don't believe in
                                > > cues, subtle hints, etc. because they can be misleading,
                                > and like you
                                > > said, requires training and an _explicit_ cognitive process of
                                > > interpreting them. If you want to convey a clear message,
                                > don't rely on
                                > > any of them. Say what you want to convey, and if you don't
                                > - don't wonder
                                > > that people don't understand you or misinterpret you.
                                > >
                                > I'm afraid that your beliefs in the matter means nothing to
                                > the people
                                > you interact with, at least in the first stages where they don't know
                                > you and have to create their first impression of you.
                                >
                                > Although some people will appreciate your straightforward, direct and
                                > unambiguous communications, others (the majority of people on the
                                > planet, it seems) would not.
                                >
                                > And by *purposely* ignoring the subliminal channel of your
                                > communications, you not only open the door for misinterpretation, you
                                > perpetuate the misinterpretation. You are transmitting
                                > something on that
                                > channel, like it or not. By just ignoring it you may be more
                                > sincere. By
                                > purposefully transmitting a stream of zeroes on that channel
                                > you deliver
                                > a stong message of reluctance to adhere to the conventions of
                                > society,
                                > and that message is received VERY badly by a high precentage of the
                                > people around you. Subliminally, but strong enough for them
                                > not to like
                                > you, or have a bad impression of you.
                                >
                                > Maybe less so in the Technion, but the people who find
                                > themselves in the
                                > Technion care much less about social conventions, by definition :-)
                                >
                                > Gilad has stated the best solution IMHO - go learn NLP. I know it has
                                > changed the way I look at life. I think NLP can be classified
                                > as actual
                                > hacking. It's a skill for maniplating a system - for fun
                                > and/or profit.
                                > Much like social engineering, it deals with wetware.
                                >
                                > I still got a lot to learn myself, since I make a lot of
                                > mistakes daily.
                                > At least I know when I do.
                                >
                                > Take care.
                                >
                                > -- Arik
                                >
                                >
                                >
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