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New poll for hackers-il

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  • hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
    Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the hackers-il group: In light of recent posts, do you think it s right to post technical questions and
    Message 1 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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      Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
      hackers-il group:

      In light of recent posts, do you think
      it's right to post technical questions
      and have technical discussuions about
      specific issues on hackers-il?

      o Yeah, sure, bring it on
      o Maybe short ones
      o You may ask, but reply off-list
      o No. This is a group about hackers, not hacks
      o I have no opinion on this matter


      To vote, please visit the following web page:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hackers-il/polls

      Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
      not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
      web site listed above.

      Thanks!
    • Nadav Har'El
      ... I have a poll of my own: When you read about the new hackers-il poll, what did you do? 1. Ignored it - I don t even know who sent it! 2. Ignored it - my
      Message 2 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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        On Tue, May 07, 2002, hackers-il@yahoogroups.com wrote about "[hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il":
        >
        > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
        > hackers-il group:
        >..
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hackers-il/polls

        I have a poll of my own:

        When you read about the new hackers-il poll, what did you do?

        1. Ignored it - I don't even know who sent it!
        2. Ignored it - my choice ("CowboyNeal") wasn't one of the choices :(
        3. Went to the yahoogroups to vote, and voted. Yey!
        4. Went to the yahoogroups to vote, but it didn't recognize me!
        5. Struggled with yahoogroups to recognize me, but it never sent me
        the validation email it said it would! I hate yahoogroups!


        > In light of recent posts, do you think
        > it's right to post technical questions
        > and have technical discussuions about
        > specific issues on hackers-il?

        Since I chose #5 above, I'll have to answer here...

        In my opinion discussions are fine. What isn't ok is people asking questions
        about how to do their job. This isn't a my-deadline-is-in-5-hours-and-I'm-
        in-deep-shit programmers helpline. If you have a question to ask, try to make
        it interesting and broad, and whatever you do: never say things like "please
        answer in 10 minutes or I'm history!", "If you guys can't answer this, you're
        all idiots!" or "Pl33z h3lp m3 I w4nt t0 b3 4 h4ck3r!".

        --
        Nadav Har'El | Tuesday, May 7 2002, 25 Iyyar 5762
        nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
        Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |We are Microsoft. You will be
        http://nadav.harel.org.il |assimilated. Resistance is futile.
      • Tzafrir Cohen
        Hi all ... Might I ask who set this pole? Is there any reason that technical discussions will not go to linux-il ? (A remoinder to all of us: this list
        Message 3 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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          Hi all

          On 7 May 2002 hackers-il@yahoogroups.com wrote:

          >
          > Enter your vote today!A new poll has been created for the
          > hackers-il group:
          >
          > In light of recent posts, do you think
          > it's right to post technical questions
          > and have technical discussuions about
          > specific issues on hackers-il?
          >
          > o Yeah, sure, bring it on
          > o Maybe short ones
          > o You may ask, but reply off-list
          > o No. This is a group about hackers, not hacks
          > o I have no opinion on this matter
          >

          Might I ask who set this pole?

          Is there any reason that technical discussions will not go to linux-il ?

          (A remoinder to all of us: this list branched off linux-il to remove some
          semi-philosophical discussions. It is not over-technical. It is nither
          linux-il nor crackers-il)

          Short technical discussions were never totally off-topic (because nothing
          is really off-topic in hackers-il) but this is not the focus of this list.

          Now, please let's waste as little noise as possible on this thread.

          --
          Tzafrir Cohen
          mailto:tzafrir@...
          http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
        • Oleg Goldshmidt
          ... Hear! Hear! Also please remember that there is linux-il for Linux technical stuff. And please do the requisite amount of RTFMing and STFWing before asking.
          Message 4 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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            "Nadav Har'El" <nyh@...> writes:

            > 4. Went to the yahoogroups to vote, but it didn't recognize me!

            ... and I gave up.

            > In my opinion discussions are fine. What isn't ok is people asking questions
            > about how to do their job. This isn't a my-deadline-is-in-5-hours-and-I'm-
            > in-deep-shit programmers helpline. If you have a question to ask, try to make
            > it interesting and broad, and whatever you do: never say things like "please
            > answer in 10 minutes or I'm history!", "If you guys can't answer this, you're
            > all idiots!" or "Pl33z h3lp m3 I w4nt t0 b3 4 h4ck3r!".

            Hear! Hear! Also please remember that there is linux-il for Linux
            technical stuff. And please do the requisite amount of RTFMing and
            STFWing before asking.

            --
            Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
            "We work by wit, and not by witchcraft,
            And wit depends on dilatory time..."
          • Muli Ben-Yehuda
            Warning, /me is in pedantic mode. ... What s the connection? ... Sorry, some people do not deserve help. ... He did not deserve an answer, by the simple fact
            Message 5 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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              Warning, /me is in pedantic mode.

              On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 07:09:43PM +0200, Arik Baratz wrote:
              >
              > Tsafrir:
              > > Might I ask who set this pole?
              >
              > Yes you may. It's me. I've set up the poll, because I thought that
              > we're all MATURE enough to vote on matters that regard the mailing
              > list, and we are TECHNICAL enough to get the fscking yahoo ID and
              > groups email bound togeather.
              >
              > I never expected this much raving over the simple matter of putting
              > up a poll regarding the group's policy - rave which has exceeded the
              > original posts to the original thread.
              >
              > No more shall I create polls,
              > No more shall I answer technical questions on this forum

              What's the connection?

              > For I feel lousy after having done so,
              > For trying to help some guy in need.

              Sorry, some people do not deserve help.

              > BTW, you RTFM-shouting crowd -
              >
              > > If you look at my answer you will see that it just pointed the guy
              > to the right documents - the correct RFC, the libnids manuals, and the
              > TCP RFC. I didn't write his code or anything. Relax.

              He did not deserve an answer, by the simple fact of not having done
              his homework *before* posting.

              Now, the real reason I'm replying: kindly trim yer posts at 72 or 80
              characters per line. Thank you. You might also want to do something
              about the way too long signature, and the nonsensical (automatic?)
              footer.

              --
              The ill-formed Orange
              Fails to satisfy the eye: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/
              Segmentation fault. http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
            • Alon Altman
              ... I vote 4. Can t we on a hackers mailing list use something better than Yahoo!? A poll could have been sent with nice URLs or e-mails that would
              Message 6 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                On Tue, 7 May 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

                > On Tue, May 07, 2002, hackers-il@yahoogroups.com wrote about "[hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il":
                > >
                > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
                > > hackers-il group:
                > >..
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hackers-il/polls
                >
                > I have a poll of my own:
                >
                > When you read about the new hackers-il poll, what did you do?
                >
                > 1. Ignored it - I don't even know who sent it!
                > 2. Ignored it - my choice ("CowboyNeal") wasn't one of the choices :(
                > 3. Went to the yahoogroups to vote, and voted. Yey!
                > 4. Went to the yahoogroups to vote, but it didn't recognize me!
                > 5. Struggled with yahoogroups to recognize me, but it never sent me
                > the validation email it said it would! I hate yahoogroups!
                >

                I vote 4. Can't we on a hackers mailing list use something better than
                Yahoo!? A poll could have been sent with nice URLs or e-mails that would
                automatically identify the member and make the vote trivial and unique (per
                reigstered member).

                Who is for moving to a more sensible list server?

                Alon

                --
                This message was sent by Alon Altman (alon@...) ICQ:1366540
                The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :)
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                -=[ Random Fortune ]=-
                It is better to kiss an avocado than to get in a fight with an aardvark.
              • Muli Ben-Yehuda
                ... Me, definitely. IGLU would seem to be an obvious server, assuming it runs a mailing list manager? -- The ill-formed Orange Fails to satisfy the eye:
                Message 7 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                  On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 07:56:24PM +0300, Alon Altman wrote:
                  >
                  > I vote 4. Can't we on a hackers mailing list use something better than
                  > Yahoo!? A poll could have been sent with nice URLs or e-mails that would
                  > automatically identify the member and make the vote trivial and unique (per
                  > reigstered member).
                  >
                  > Who is for moving to a more sensible list server?

                  Me, definitely. IGLU would seem to be an obvious server, assuming it
                  runs a mailing list manager?
                  --
                  The ill-formed Orange
                  Fails to satisfy the eye: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/
                  Segmentation fault. http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                • Arik Baratz
                  ... Yes you may. It s me. I ve set up the poll, because I thought that we re all MATURE enough to vote on matters that regard the mailing list, and we are
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                    Tsafrir:
                    > Might I ask who set this pole?

                    Yes you may. It's me. I've set up the poll, because I thought that we're all MATURE enough to vote on matters that regard the mailing list, and we are TECHNICAL enough to get the fscking yahoo ID and groups email bound togeather.

                    I never expected this much raving over the simple matter of putting up a poll regarding the group's policy - rave which has exceeded the original posts to the original thread.

                    No more shall I create polls,
                    No more shall I answer technical questions on this forum
                    For I feel lousy after having done so,
                    For trying to help some guy in need.

                    BTW, you RTFM-shouting crowd -

                    If you look at my answer you will see that it just pointed the guy to the right documents - the correct RFC, the libnids manuals, and the TCP RFC. I didn't write his code or anything. Relax.

                    Arik Baratz
                    System Engineer
                    arikb@...

                    Office:
                    4 Hamelacha St.
                    Raa'nana 43661
                    ISRAEL

                    Tel: +972 (9) 743-9250 ext. 214
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                  • Muli Ben-Yehuda
                    ... Warning, this is going to be a long one. ... No, no, no. You are sorely misguided. I shall elaborate, further below. ... Dear Arik, I hold hackers-il (and
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                      On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 08:35:40PM +0200, Arik Baratz wrote:
                      >
                      > Mulix wrote:
                      >
                      > > Warning, /me is in pedantic mode.
                      > >
                      > Warning, I'm in a good mood.

                      Warning, this is going to be a long one.

                      > > > For I feel lousy after having done so,
                      > > > For trying to help some guy in need.
                      > >
                      > > Sorry, some people do not deserve help.
                      > >
                      > Sorry, some people do not deserve to get shouted at and RTFM-ed at, just
                      > becaue they are newbies and not 31337 |-|4C|<ER like the rest of
                      > us.

                      No, no, no. You are sorely misguided. I shall elaborate, further
                      below.

                      > It's SOOOO fun to make fun of the knowhow-challenged. Yeah, do it the
                      > hard way. May everything you do, Mulix, you will do by plain RTFMing and
                      > never may you get some friendly advice if you ever dare to ask it in the
                      > wrong crowd. May your teeth rot and fall off. May your children be...
                      > wait a minute... scratch the teeth and children stuff. Unrelated.
                      > However, as a maintainer of at least one FAQ that I know of, and a
                      > contributor to the comunity, you might consider some of the less
                      > fortunate.

                      Dear Arik, I hold hackers-il (and implicitly, its members, in the
                      highest regards). I expect material posted on the list to have a high
                      S2N ration, and to be relevant to the list's charter. To see why the
                      original poster's, and by association, your response, should not have
                      been sent to the list, read on.

                      Contrast hackers-il, with, for example, gnubies-il. I am equally
                      active (helpful?) on both lists, as google will gladly show. Consider
                      this simple question:

                      "Hi, how do I do set up ADSL on linux?"

                      On gnubies-il, I would reply with a URL to the howto and a friendly
                      note saying that if anything is not clear, to not hesitate to contact
                      me in private. On hackers-il, I will reply with a flame the likes of
                      which have not been seen yet (*)(**), simply because asking such a
                      question on hackers-il shows a disregard for the list and its
                      members. It shows that the poster did not invest three fscking seconds
                      researching the subject. It shows a complete lack of manners or any
                      regards for *my* time. Since it shows all that, why should I take the
                      time to respond?

                      (*) Not since MV's days, at least.
                      (**) I would flame, but I would also point to the HOWTO, most likely.

                      I hope I made my point clear. There is a time, a place and a mailing
                      list for each subject under the sun. Asking on a list which is clearly
                      the wrong one is disrespectful. Disrespectful people do not deserve my
                      help.

                      > I wonder if you would have supplied a tip regarding ADSL on Linux if
                      > someone had asked that, off-topic of course.

                      See above.

                      > > He did not deserve an answer, by the simple fact of not having done
                      > > his homework *before* posting.
                      > >
                      > Well, all I can say is that I wish you find yourself in a situation
                      > where you will need the help and people will bluntly refuse to answer
                      > you.

                      Never happend to me, because I always ask on the right forum, which
                      stems from the fact that I do my homework BEFORE posting. If, however,
                      I make such a gross error of judgement in the future, I hope to be
                      flamed harshly and immediately, so that I may know beter next time.

                      > > Now, the real reason I'm replying: kindly trim yer posts at 72 or 80
                      > > characters per line. Thank you. You might also want to do something
                      > > about the way too long signature, and the nonsensical (automatic?)
                      > > footer.
                      > >
                      > I shall not trim my lines. As you may not have noticed, every decent MUA
                      > today already displays long lines. It is even beneficial, because it
                      > allows your MUA to wrap the lines with regard to the actual screen
                      > width.

                      Having the receiving MUA do the wrapping is wrong, because it means
                      that some of the original formatting will be lost.

                      > If you insist on using an MUA which is very old and/or very
                      > non-compliant coughmuttcough - write a filter to chop long lines. Things
                      > change. Deal with it. Either go with the flow or stay where you are, but
                      > don't complain. If Pine 4.33L2 can read it, there's no reason why your
                      > MUA won't. BTW I can't read email sent with Mutt using
                      > JawMail. Tough.

                      Why not? As it happens, I use mutt.

                      > As for the long signature, my answer is pretty much the same. The
                      > internet has evolved since you have last read the nettiquete, and
                      > 4-lines-max-signature is rarely the fashion today. Not is it necessary
                      > due to some small bandwidth requirement. I do intend to cut it. It does
                      > appear only on new mail that I compose, BTW.

                      Some rules have a point. Most netiquette is grounded in common
                      sense. Your willful ignorance of both is your perogative, of course.

                      > The footer only serves to indicate in a human-readable form that some
                      > scanning operation has been performed on the mail message. It only

                      I see its time to brush up on procmail.
                      --
                      The ill-formed Orange
                      Fails to satisfy the eye: http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/
                      Segmentation fault. http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                    • Arik Baratz
                      ... Warning, I m in a good mood. ... The connection is that if there s a forum where people behave imploitely, shout at newbies, RTFM them to death and get on
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                        Mulix wrote:

                        > Warning, /me is in pedantic mode.
                        >
                        Warning, I'm in a good mood.

                        > > No more shall I create polls,
                        > > No more shall I answer technical questions on this forum
                        >
                        > What's the connection?
                        >
                        The connection is that if there's a forum where people behave
                        imploitely, shout at newbies, RTFM them to death and get on my case
                        becasue I throw them a bone, then I will not answer technical questions
                        on that forum. And I hope you will need one answered some day because I
                        won't answer it. Try me. I won't. Maybe... No. I just won't.

                        > > For I feel lousy after having done so,
                        > > For trying to help some guy in need.
                        >
                        > Sorry, some people do not deserve help.
                        >
                        Sorry, some people do not deserve to get shouted at and RTFM-ed at, just
                        becaue they are newbies and not 31337 |-|4C|<ER like the rest of us.
                        It's SOOOO fun to make fun of the knowhow-challenged. Yeah, do it the
                        hard way. May everything you do, Mulix, you will do by plain RTFMing and
                        never may you get some friendly advice if you ever dare to ask it in the
                        wrong crowd. May your teeth rot and fall off. May your children be...
                        wait a minute... scratch the teeth and children stuff. Unrelated.
                        However, as a maintainer of at least one FAQ that I know of, and a
                        contributor to the comunity, you might consider some of the less fortunate.

                        I wonder if you would have supplied a tip regarding ADSL on Linux if
                        someone had asked that, off-topic of course.

                        > He did not deserve an answer, by the simple fact of not having done
                        > his homework *before* posting.
                        >
                        Well, all I can say is that I wish you find yourself in a situation
                        where you will need the help and people will bluntly refuse to answer
                        you. You are not 'leet enough. You didn't suffer long enough. Oh, I had
                        to pass this and that rite of passage to be on that mailing list and
                        have my answers answered, you should too. Listen to yourself. DESERVE.
                        Cool it.

                        > Now, the real reason I'm replying: kindly trim yer posts at 72 or 80
                        > characters per line. Thank you. You might also want to do something
                        > about the way too long signature, and the nonsensical (automatic?)
                        > footer.
                        >
                        I shall not trim my lines. As you may not have noticed, every decent MUA
                        today already displays long lines. It is even beneficial, because it
                        allows your MUA to wrap the lines with regard to the actual screen
                        width. If you insist on using an MUA which is very old and/or very
                        non-compliant coughmuttcough - write a filter to chop long lines. Things
                        change. Deal with it. Either go with the flow or stay where you are, but
                        don't complain. If Pine 4.33L2 can read it, there's no reason why your
                        MUA won't. BTW I can't read email sent with Mutt using JawMail. Tough.

                        As for the long signature, my answer is pretty much the same. The
                        internet has evolved since you have last read the nettiquete, and
                        4-lines-max-signature is rarely the fashion today. Not is it necessary
                        due to some small bandwidth requirement. I do intend to cut it. It does
                        appear only on new mail that I compose, BTW.

                        The footer only serves to indicate in a human-readable form that some
                        scanning operation has been performed on the mail message. It only
                        appears once, because it will not be added if it already exists. It
                        serves a purpose, although to you it may not matter. It is a product
                        that my company develops, which makes sure that company documents won't
                        be sent by email. I'll be happy to elaborate if you wish, and also point
                        you to our web site, http://www.vidius.com

                        -- Arik
                      • Gilad Ben-Yossef
                        ... This is very true, but it is not the whole truth. By giving him the answers he wanted I would have given him a fish. By insuling him and making him go find
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                          On Tue, 2002-05-07 at 20:57, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:

                          > Dear Arik, I hold hackers-il (and implicitly, its members, in the
                          > highest regards). I expect material posted on the list to have a high
                          > S2N ration, and to be relevant to the list's charter. To see why the
                          > original poster's, and by association, your response, should not have
                          > been sent to the list, read on.
                          > ...
                          > I hope I made my point clear. There is a time, a place and a mailing
                          > list for each subject under the sun. Asking on a list which is clearly
                          > the wrong one is disrespectful. Disrespectful people do not deserve my
                          > help.
                          >

                          This is very true, but it is not the whole truth. By giving him the
                          answers he wanted I would have given him a fish. By insuling him and
                          making him go find the answers he wanted himself I would have taught him
                          to learn by himself and thus given something far more precious: a
                          fishing rod.

                          The way I see it, he should have thanked me for my grandmotherly
                          kindness... ;-)

                          Gilad.


                          --
                          Gilad Ben-Yossef <gilad@...>
                          http://benyossef.com
                          "Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!"
                        • Nadav Har'El
                          ... By the way, after some struggling I was finally able to get to the poll. It turns out you need a yahoo account (I had one), then you need to teach it
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                            On Tue, May 07, 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il":
                            > When you read about the new hackers-il poll, what did you do?
                            >
                            > 1. Ignored it - I don't even know who sent it!
                            > 2. Ignored it - my choice ("CowboyNeal") wasn't one of the choices :(
                            > 3. Went to the yahoogroups to vote, and voted. Yey!
                            > 4. Went to the yahoogroups to vote, but it didn't recognize me!
                            > 5. Struggled with yahoogroups to recognize me, but it never sent me
                            > the validation email it said it would! I hate yahoogroups!

                            By the way, after some struggling I was finally able to get to the poll.
                            It turns out you need a yahoo account (I had one), then you need to "teach"
                            it about your other email address (the one you read the group in) - there's
                            a specific option for that. Then they send you some code you need to use
                            on the site to prove you do control that other address (this part took a
                            lot of time, I don't know why). And *then* you need to tell yahoogroups to
                            look at all mailing list registered by your other email and add it to your
                            yahoo account. Only then it will let you go to the poll.

                            Wow, that was complicated...
                            I think, by the way, that people who registered to hackers-il when it was
                            on yahoogroups (and not the former egroups) should have an easier time
                            voting.

                            --
                            Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, May 8 2002, 26 Iyyar 5762
                            nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                            Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |If Windows is the answer, you didn't
                            http://nadav.harel.org.il |understand the question.
                          • Tzafrir Cohen
                            ... Putting the pooll there created the noise. There was no point in pputting a poll on something on which there is no debate. You first have to debatee
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                              On Tue, 7 May 2002, Arik Baratz wrote:

                              >
                              > Tsafrir:
                              > > Might I ask who set this pole?
                              >
                              > Yes you may. It's me. I've set up the poll, because I thought that we're all MATURE enough to vote on matters that regard the mailing list, and we are TECHNICAL enough to get the fscking yahoo ID and groupsemail bound togeather.
                              >
                              > I never expected this much raving over the simple matter of putting up
                              > a poll regarding the group's policy - rave which has exceeded the
                              > original posts to the original thread.

                              Putting the pooll there created the noise. There was no point in pputting
                              a poll on something on which there is no debate.

                              You first have to debatee things, and only if there is any point in that,
                              bother the list with a poll.

                              >
                              > No more shall I create polls,

                              Please don't conclude that. The polls are useful, when used properly.

                              > No more shall I answer technical questions on this forum

                              This is indeed a conclusion: this list branched off a rather technical
                              list. Technical discussions belong to linux-il. This is not a list for
                              technical support.

                              I have nothing against technical discussions, if they are interesting, but
                              some people see a list named "hackers-il" and think that this is a good
                              place to get support.

                              I don't want this list to become a support list. And if flaming is what it
                              takes (it took flaming, as private mail did not help) then flaming should
                              be used.

                              > For I feel lousy after having done so,
                              > For trying to help some guy in need.
                              >
                              > BTW, you RTFM-shouting crowd -
                              >
                              > If you look at my answer you will see that it just pointed the guy to
                              > the right documents - the correct RFC, the libnids manuals, and the TCP
                              > RFC. I didn't write his code or anything. Relax.

                              Indeed.


                              BTW: one word regarrding long lines:

                              I can read your message properly, but answering to it is quite
                              problematic. I have to manually break it into lines.

                              Or else I get a quoted line of the sort:

                              > a very long line of ttext in the original message does not appear no be quoted after it is being broken, without Tzafrir manually breaking lines and inserting quoting characters.

                              How does that look in your MUA? in pine? in JawMail?

                              REgards

                              --
                              Tzafrir Cohen
                              mailto:tzafrir@...
                              http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
                            • Oleg Goldshmidt
                              ... Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands. I want your job ;-) -- Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@NOSPAM.computer.org We work by wit, and not by witchcraft,
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 7, 2002
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                                "Nadav Har'El" <nyh@...> writes:

                                > On Tue, May 07, 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il":

                                > Wow, that was complicated...

                                Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands. I want your job ;-)

                                --
                                Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
                                "We work by wit, and not by witchcraft,
                                And wit depends on dilatory time..."
                              • Oleg Goldshmidt
                                ... No. That list is for Linux-related topics. Not everything we discuss is Linux-related. I am even ambiguous about banning any mention of M$ ;-). At the same
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 8, 2002
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                                  Tzafrir Cohen <tzafrir@...> writes:

                                  > This is indeed a conclusion: this list branched off a rather technical
                                  > list. Technical discussions belong to linux-il.

                                  No. That list is for Linux-related topics. Not everything we discuss
                                  is Linux-related. I am even ambiguous about banning any mention of M$
                                  ;-).

                                  At the same time, I think that C++ questions belong to
                                  comp.lang.c++.moderated, emacs questions - to comp.emacs, and UNIX
                                  programming questions - to comp.unix.programming.

                                  That statement, however, is limited to questions *about* C++, emacs,
                                  or UNIX programming specifically. There are many questions related to
                                  those topics that can reasonably be asked here.

                                  "How I use C++ for functional programming" is a question that can
                                  reasonably be asked here. So are "How to define modular code?",
                                  "Are quantum computers Turing machines?", "Hacking rubberbands", and
                                  "Abusing OO languages", to recall a few relatively recent threads.

                                  --
                                  Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
                                  "We work by wit, and not by witchcraft,
                                  And wit depends on dilatory time..."
                                • Adi Stav
                                  ... None of these match my position. I find technical questions on-topic if they are interesting and new, and especially if they relate or contribute towards
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 8, 2002
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                                    On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 12:35:24PM -0000, hackers-il@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                    >
                                    > o Yeah, sure, bring it on
                                    > o Maybe short ones
                                    > o You may ask, but reply off-list
                                    > o No. This is a group about hackers, not hacks
                                    > o I have no opinion on this matter

                                    None of these match my position. I find technical questions on-topic
                                    if they are interesting and new, and especially if they relate or
                                    contribute towards understanding of the more abstract issue involved.
                                    Giving people answers to what they want to know is not the purpose of
                                    this list, although it could be a side-effect. If not, there are
                                    enough lists for support.
                                  • Nadav Har'El
                                    ... There are 24 hours a day. Take a look at the time I wrote that message... Do you work on 1am? :) -- Nadav Har El | Wednesday,
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 8, 2002
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                                      On Wed, May 08, 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il":
                                      > "Nadav Har'El" <nyh@...> writes:
                                      >
                                      > > On Tue, May 07, 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il":
                                      >
                                      > > Wow, that was complicated...
                                      >
                                      > Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands. I want your job ;-)

                                      There are 24 hours a day. Take a look at the time I wrote that message...
                                      Do you work on 1am? :)

                                      --
                                      Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, May 8 2002, 26 Iyyar 5762
                                      nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                                      Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Tea or coffee? Coffee, without cream. It
                                      http://nadav.harel.org.il |will be without milk, we have no cream.
                                    • Shlomi Fish
                                      ... That s a really nice sig which I don t think I ve seen before. What is its source, if I may ask? Regards, Shlomi Fish ... Shlomi Fish
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 8, 2002
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                                        On Wed, 8 May 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

                                        > On Wed, May 08, 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il":
                                        > > "Nadav Har'El" <nyh@...> writes:
                                        > >
                                        > > > On Tue, May 07, 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote about "Re: [hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il":
                                        > >
                                        > > > Wow, that was complicated...
                                        > >
                                        > > Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands. I want your job ;-)
                                        >
                                        > There are 24 hours a day. Take a look at the time I wrote that message...
                                        > Do you work on 1am? :)
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, May 8 2002, 26 Iyyar 5762
                                        > nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                                        > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Tea or coffee? Coffee, without cream. It
                                        > http://nadav.harel.org.il |will be without milk, we have no cream.
                                        >

                                        That's a really nice sig which I don't think I've seen before. What is its
                                        source, if I may ask?

                                        Regards,

                                        Shlomi Fish


                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >



                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                        Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                                        Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                                        "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                                        "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                                      • Nadav Har'El
                                        ... I don t remember, as I collect signatures continuously from various sources, other people s emails, and so on (I m now 258 signatures, and still continuing
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 8, 2002
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                                          On Wed, May 08, 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Coffee without Cream [was Re: New poll for hackers-il]":
                                          > > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Tea or coffee? Coffee, without cream. It
                                          > > http://nadav.harel.org.il |will be without milk, we have no cream.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > That's a really nice sig which I don't think I've seen before. What is its
                                          > source, if I may ask?

                                          I don't remember, as I collect signatures continuously from various sources,
                                          other people's emails, and so on (I'm now 258 signatures, and still continuing
                                          to find more). I do remember, however that this sig isn't original and I
                                          copied it from somewhere (feel free to copy it too :))

                                          A bunch of my signatures are from coolsig.com - try seeing if this signature
                                          is from there (and if not, browse their site anyway, it contains a lot of
                                          nice sigs). And you can always search for this sig's text on google and see
                                          what you come up with.

                                          --
                                          Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, May 8 2002, 26 Iyyar 5762
                                          nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                                          Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Snowflakes are very fragile, but look
                                          http://nadav.harel.org.il |what they can do when they stick together!
                                        • Orna
                                          Most shamefully, I use outlook express when reading hackers-il, and i am annoyed by the long lines, too. On pine it is just terrible, BTW (but maybe there is
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 8, 2002
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                                            Most shamefully, I use outlook express when reading hackers-il,
                                            and i am annoyed by the long lines, too.
                                            On pine it is just terrible, BTW
                                            (but maybe there is some way to configure that, I don't know)
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Tzafrir Cohen" <tzafrir@...>
                                            To: <hackers-il@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 9:56 AM
                                            Subject: RE: [hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il
                                            > > a very long line of ttext in the original message does not appear no be
                                            quoted after it is being broken, without Tzafrir manually breaking lines and
                                            inserting quoting characters.
                                            >
                                            > How does that look in your MUA? in pine? in JawMail?
                                            >
                                            > REgards
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Tzafrir Cohen
                                            > mailto:tzafrir@...
                                            > http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
                                          • Orna
                                            As I see it, it is like being a Jewish Atheist: You have to not believe in the Jewish God, you can t be not believing in an Islamic one Orna. ... Iyyar 5762
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 8, 2002
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                                              As I see it, it is like being a Jewish Atheist:
                                              You have to not believe in the Jewish God,
                                              you can't be "not believing in an Islamic one"
                                              Orna.

                                              > > Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, May 8 2002, 26
                                              Iyyar 5762
                                              > > nyh@...
                                              |-----------------------------------------
                                              > > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Tea or coffee? Coffee, without
                                              cream. It
                                              > > http://nadav.harel.org.il |will be without milk, we have no
                                              cream.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > That's a really nice sig which I don't think I've seen before. What is its
                                              > source, if I may ask?
                                              >
                                              > Regards,
                                              >
                                              > Shlomi Fish
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                              > Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                                              > Home E-mail: shlomif@...
                                              >
                                              > "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                                              > "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Shlomi Fish
                                              ... A nice twist. But naturally I don t believe in the Islamic God. I don t believe in the Jewish God either, but the former statement still holds. Regards,
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 8, 2002
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                                                On Wed, 8 May 2002, Orna wrote:

                                                > As I see it, it is like being a Jewish Atheist:
                                                > You have to not believe in the Jewish God,
                                                > you can't be "not believing in an Islamic one"
                                                > Orna.
                                                >

                                                A nice twist. But naturally I don't believe in the Islamic God. I don't
                                                believe in the Jewish God either, but the former statement still holds.

                                                Regards,

                                                Shlomi Fish

                                                > > > Nadav Har'El | Wednesday, May 8 2002, 26
                                                > Iyyar 5762
                                                > > > nyh@...
                                                > |-----------------------------------------
                                                > > > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Tea or coffee? Coffee, without
                                                > cream. It
                                                > > > http://nadav.harel.org.il |will be without milk, we have no
                                                > cream.
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > > That's a really nice sig which I don't think I've seen before. What is its
                                                > > source, if I may ask?
                                                > >
                                                > > Regards,
                                                > >
                                                > > Shlomi Fish
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                                > > Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                                                > > Home E-mail: shlomif@...
                                                > >
                                                > > "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                                                > > "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                >
                                                >



                                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                                Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                                                Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                                                "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                                                "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                                              • Arik Baratz
                                                ... Warning, I have no warning here. ... It doesn t show that he didn t spend time researching the subject, it shows that he didn t understand what hackers-il
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 9, 2002
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                                                  Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:

                                                  > > > Warning, /me is in pedantic mode.
                                                  > > Warning, I'm in a good mood.
                                                  >
                                                  > Warning, this is going to be a long one.
                                                  >
                                                  Warning, I have no warning here.

                                                  > "Hi, how do I do set up ADSL on linux?"
                                                  >
                                                  > On gnubies-il, I would reply with a URL to the howto and a friendly
                                                  > note saying that if anything is not clear, to not hesitate to contact
                                                  > me in private. On hackers-il, I will reply with a flame the likes of
                                                  > which have not been seen yet (*)(**), simply because asking such a
                                                  > question on hackers-il shows a disregard for the list and its
                                                  > members. It shows that the poster did not invest three fscking seconds
                                                  > researching the subject. It shows a complete lack of manners or any
                                                  > regards for *my* time. Since it shows all that, why should I take the
                                                  > time to respond?
                                                  >
                                                  It doesn't show that he didn't spend time researching the subject, it
                                                  shows that he didn't understand what hackers-il is all about. And if he
                                                  misunderstood that, than we can politely enlighten him and edirect him
                                                  to the right group.

                                                  > (*) Not since MV's days, at least.
                                                  >
                                                  Oh, those were the days.

                                                  > (**) I would flame, but I would also point to the HOWTO, most likely.
                                                  >
                                                  Why flame at all? Just tell the nice man kindly to send all future
                                                  questions of this sort to the proper place.

                                                  > I hope I made my point clear. There is a time, a place and a mailing
                                                  > list for each subject under the sun. Asking on a list which is clearly
                                                  > the wrong one is disrespectful. Disrespectful people do not deserve my
                                                  > help.
                                                  >
                                                  Or uninformed.

                                                  > > Well, all I can say is that I wish you find yourself in a situation
                                                  > > where you will need the help and people will bluntly refuse to answer
                                                  > > you.
                                                  >
                                                  > Never happend to me, because I always ask on the right forum, which
                                                  > stems from the fact that I do my homework BEFORE posting. If, however,
                                                  > I make such a gross error of judgement in the future, I hope to be
                                                  > flamed harshly and immediately, so that I may know beter next time.
                                                  >
                                                  Wouldn't you like it better if someone just pointed you in the right
                                                  direction instead of kicked you in the balls?

                                                  > > I shall not trim my lines. As you may not have noticed, every decent
                                                  > MUA
                                                  > > today already displays long lines. It is even beneficial, because it
                                                  > > allows your MUA to wrap the lines with regard to the actual screen
                                                  > > width.
                                                  >
                                                  > Having the receiving MUA do the wrapping is wrong, because it means
                                                  > that some of the original formatting will be lost.
                                                  >
                                                  That's right - it will be, and that's the way it should be. There is no
                                                  uniform 80 cpl limit anymore. My screen is wider. Why should I use only
                                                  part of it? There is a solution for keeping formatting - <PRE> in HTML,
                                                  or just hit enter after each line in plain text email. The whole idea
                                                  about doing correct paragraphs is to allow different MUAs with different
                                                  screen widths to determine where paragraphs end.

                                                  > > If you insist on using an MUA which is very old and/or very
                                                  > > non-compliant coughmuttcough - write a filter to chop long lines.
                                                  > Things
                                                  > > change. Deal with it. Either go with the flow or stay where you are,
                                                  > but
                                                  > > don't complain. If Pine 4.33L2 can read it, there's no reason why your
                                                  > > MUA won't. BTW I can't read email sent with Mutt using
                                                  > > JawMail. Tough.
                                                  >
                                                  > Why not? As it happens, I use mutt.
                                                  >
                                                  A bug in jawmail. And I did check your mailer header before I wrote
                                                  that. My point is you can't complain if you use a non-conforming or
                                                  obsolete MUA.

                                                  > Some rules have a point. Most netiquette is grounded in common
                                                  > sense. Your willful ignorance of both is your perogative, of course.
                                                  >
                                                  The entire netiquete was written long ago and some parts are obsolete.
                                                  When you read your email with /bin/mail and bandwidth was scarce, a long
                                                  .signature would have pissed me off. Now people attach all kinds of
                                                  multi-kilobyte stuff to their email, or send both plaintext and html
                                                  versions of their mails... I think I'm conservative in comparision. I
                                                  have reduced the size of my signature considerably. Watch my next new
                                                  email message.

                                                  > > The footer only serves to indicate in a human-readable form that some
                                                  > > scanning operation has been performed on the mail message. It only
                                                  >
                                                  > I see its time to brush up on procmail.
                                                  >
                                                  Do what you wish to your incoming mail. It's your right. If the 3-line
                                                  footer annoys you THAT much - why don't you.

                                                  -- Arik
                                                • Arik Baratz
                                                  ... Why not just point him nicely to the place where they sell fishing rods, and mention BTW that there are good fish yonder? All nicely? I don t understand
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 9, 2002
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                                                    Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:

                                                    > This is very true, but it is not the whole truth. By giving him the
                                                    > answers he wanted I would have given him a fish. By insuling him and
                                                    > making him go find the answers he wanted himself I would have taught him
                                                    > to learn by himself and thus given something far more precious: a
                                                    > fishing rod.
                                                    >
                                                    Why not just point him nicely to the place where they sell fishing rods,
                                                    and mention BTW that there are good fish yonder? All nicely? I don't
                                                    understand your need of violence.

                                                    -- Arik
                                                  • Arik Baratz
                                                    ... Well, there is a debate. The poll caused it. ... Well, in this case the poll caused the debate. The poll will hold till the end of the week - you can still
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , May 9, 2002
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                                                      Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

                                                      > Putting the pooll there created the noise. There was no point in pputting
                                                      > a poll on something on which there is no debate.
                                                      >
                                                      Well, there is a debate. The poll caused it.

                                                      > You first have to debatee things, and only if there is any point in that,
                                                      > bother the list with a poll.
                                                      >
                                                      Well, in this case the poll caused the debate. The poll will hold till
                                                      the end of the week - you can still vote.

                                                      > > No more shall I create polls,
                                                      >
                                                      > Please don't conclude that. The polls are useful, when used properly.
                                                      >
                                                      I don't agree with your definition of 'properly'.

                                                      > > No more shall I answer technical questions on this forum
                                                      >
                                                      > This is indeed a conclusion: this list branched off a rather technical
                                                      > list. Technical discussions belong to linux-il. This is not a list for
                                                      > technical support.
                                                      >
                                                      I didn't say technical support.

                                                      > I have nothing against technical discussions, if they are interesting,
                                                      > but
                                                      > some people see a list named "hackers-il" and think that this is a good
                                                      > place to get support.
                                                      >
                                                      I think that TCP reassembly is interesting.

                                                      > BTW: one word regarrding long lines:
                                                      >
                                                      > I can read your message properly, but answering to it is quite
                                                      > problematic. I have to manually break it into lines.
                                                      >
                                                      > Or else I get a quoted line of the sort:
                                                      >
                                                      > > a very long line of ttext in the original message does not appear no
                                                      > be quoted after it is being broken, without Tzafrir manually breaking
                                                      > lines and inserting quoting characters.
                                                      >
                                                      > How does that look in your MUA? in pine? in JawMail?
                                                      >
                                                      I use Mozilla and it looks just fine. I think pine also handles it well,
                                                      but I'm not sure.

                                                      -- Arik
                                                    • Gilad Ben-Yossef
                                                      ... I m not a violent person generally. In fact, ever since the elective brain surgery that implented the blessed electrodes in my frontal lobe I am a good and
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , May 9, 2002
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                                                        On Thu, 2002-05-09 at 16:02, Arik Baratz wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > > This is very true, but it is not the whole truth. By giving him the
                                                        > > answers he wanted I would have given him a fish. By insuling him and
                                                        > > making him go find the answers he wanted himself I would have taught him
                                                        > > to learn by himself and thus given something far more precious: a
                                                        > > fishing rod.
                                                        > >
                                                        > Why not just point him nicely to the place where they sell fishing rods,
                                                        > and mention BTW that there are good fish yonder? All nicely? I don't
                                                        > understand your need of violence.

                                                        I'm not a violent person generally. In fact, ever since the elective
                                                        brain surgery that implented the blessed electrodes in my frontal lobe I
                                                        am a good and productive citizen of society and practicly incapable of
                                                        violence aginst another human being. They make sure to test that the
                                                        surgery really worked before they let you go out of jail; they can't
                                                        bloody well release someone who murdered 79 people with an axe get
                                                        released best on a hunch you know...

                                                        The problem is that I was one of the early voulenteers and I think they
                                                        still haven't gotten of all of the bugs out of the early system they
                                                        installed in my brain. Most of the time all goes well, but once in a
                                                        while, when someone insults me, I feel the old rage rise in me again and
                                                        can taste the blood in my mouth and I can't help myself but.... better
                                                        stop here now. [ To self: Calm down. Breath deep. I am the cool and
                                                        placid center of universe. I am the cool and placid center of the
                                                        universe. I don't have to do what the voices in my head tell me. I don't
                                                        have to do what the voices in my head tell me... oh fuck it! where's my
                                                        axe?] Be afraid. Be VERY afraid... MUHAHHAHAHAHAHA ;-)

                                                        Seriously, now. I don't know of any way to get someone to learn how to
                                                        learn by giving them the answers. I have done the ONLY thing I know that
                                                        will *really* help him.

                                                        I must've had this happen to me a million times and I'm pretty sure the
                                                        same thing happen to many others who know how the chick gets out of the
                                                        bottle: some newbie comes to you asking some question because you have a
                                                        reputation of a 'guru'. You know the answer and so you politely explain.
                                                        This might happen a couple of times. Then one day he has yet another
                                                        question and again he comes to you for answer but this time you're not
                                                        sure of the answer. Maybe you know it but not sure or you really have no
                                                        idea. So you look it up in 'man' or google and tell him the answer,
                                                        maybe send him the link. This too happens a couple of times and after a
                                                        few questions you find out that you don't really give him any real
                                                        information yourself but simply look the information for him, because
                                                        you yourself don't know it either - what you do know is how to look.

                                                        Over the time, the newbie learns a lot of information, his question
                                                        become harder and harder and although he does not know it, he is not
                                                        really a newbie anymore. There is just one more lesson he needs to learn
                                                        from you - how to think for himself. There is no way in the world you
                                                        can teach him this by keep answering more questions. If you try to he
                                                        will simply continue to come back and ask you more question you don't
                                                        know the answer to anymore then him. If you want to really help him,
                                                        there is only one thing that you can do: stop answering his questions.
                                                        Claim you don't know, banish him away and tell him to look for the
                                                        answers himself. If he continues to ask, by all means, be rude!

                                                        What usually happens is that the poor newbie is completely at awe. How
                                                        can he solve the problem if you're not helping him? he needs the problem
                                                        solved! he has to finish that ptrogram and it doesn't work and you
                                                        completly refuse to answer his questions, what to do? he will be forced
                                                        tolook inwards for the answer. He will try and immitate what he saw you
                                                        do when you didn't know the answers to the questions he asked: go look
                                                        for the answer in the man pages, or the FAQs or google or even, heaven
                                                        forbirds! think for himself. And of course, once he does that, it will
                                                        work and he will gain confidence in his own ability to solve problems on
                                                        his own that will drive him to try and solve the next problem by himself
                                                        as well. After a couple of times he REALLY wont be a newbie anymore. He
                                                        has learned.

                                                        Now, the poor newbie had the real answer all along. He knew how to look
                                                        for himself, he just didn't knew he knew. Can you teach him to know that
                                                        he knows? of course not, what rubbish! all you can do is deliver a most
                                                        shocking blow to his head (metaphorically, of course ;-) and tell him to
                                                        stop this nonsense in the hope he will awaken. This is exactly what I
                                                        was aiming for.

                                                        Gilad.

                                                        --
                                                        Gilad Ben-Yossef <gilad@...>
                                                        Code mangler, senior coffee drinker and VP SIGSEGV
                                                        Qlusters ltd.

                                                        "To err is human. To realy fsck up you need a computer. For
                                                        those really large scale disastears, an SSI cluster is a must."
                                                      • Arik Baratz
                                                        I totally agree. Question is, why can t you do it without RTFMing him to death while flaming him to dust? Why not politely point him to where he can look it
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , May 9, 2002
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          I totally agree. Question is, why can't you do it without RTFMing him to death while flaming him to dust? Why not politely point him to where he can look it up, and if he is persistant, ignore him?

                                                          -- Arik

                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:gilad@...]
                                                          Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 3:14 PM
                                                          To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [hackers-il] New poll for hackers-il


                                                          On Thu, 2002-05-09 at 16:02, Arik Baratz wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > This is very true, but it is not the whole truth. By giving him the
                                                          > > answers he wanted I would have given him a fish. By insuling him and
                                                          > > making him go find the answers he wanted himself I would have taught him
                                                          > > to learn by himself and thus given something far more precious: a
                                                          > > fishing rod.
                                                          > >
                                                          > Why not just point him nicely to the place where they sell fishing rods,
                                                          > and mention BTW that there are good fish yonder? All nicely? I don't
                                                          > understand your need of violence.

                                                          I'm not a violent person generally. In fact, ever since the elective
                                                          brain surgery that implented the blessed electrodes in my frontal lobe I
                                                          am a good and productive citizen of society and practicly incapable of
                                                          violence aginst another human being. They make sure to test that the
                                                          surgery really worked before they let you go out of jail; they can't
                                                          bloody well release someone who murdered 79 people with an axe get
                                                          released best on a hunch you know...

                                                          The problem is that I was one of the early voulenteers and I think they
                                                          still haven't gotten of all of the bugs out of the early system they
                                                          installed in my brain. Most of the time all goes well, but once in a
                                                          while, when someone insults me, I feel the old rage rise in me again and
                                                          can taste the blood in my mouth and I can't help myself but.... better
                                                          stop here now. [ To self: Calm down. Breath deep. I am the cool and
                                                          placid center of universe. I am the cool and placid center of the
                                                          universe. I don't have to do what the voices in my head tell me. I don't
                                                          have to do what the voices in my head tell me... oh fuck it! where's my
                                                          axe?] Be afraid. Be VERY afraid... MUHAHHAHAHAHAHA ;-)

                                                          Seriously, now. I don't know of any way to get someone to learn how to
                                                          learn by giving them the answers. I have done the ONLY thing I know that
                                                          will *really* help him.

                                                          I must've had this happen to me a million times and I'm pretty sure the
                                                          same thing happen to many others who know how the chick gets out of the
                                                          bottle: some newbie comes to you asking some question because you have a
                                                          reputation of a 'guru'. You know the answer and so you politely explain.
                                                          This might happen a couple of times. Then one day he has yet another
                                                          question and again he comes to you for answer but this time you're not
                                                          sure of the answer. Maybe you know it but not sure or you really have no
                                                          idea. So you look it up in 'man' or google and tell him the answer,
                                                          maybe send him the link. This too happens a couple of times and after a
                                                          few questions you find out that you don't really give him any real
                                                          information yourself but simply look the information for him, because
                                                          you yourself don't know it either - what you do know is how to look.

                                                          Over the time, the newbie learns a lot of information, his question
                                                          become harder and harder and although he does not know it, he is not
                                                          really a newbie anymore. There is just one more lesson he needs to learn
                                                          from you - how to think for himself. There is no way in the world you
                                                          can teach him this by keep answering more questions. If you try to he
                                                          will simply continue to come back and ask you more question you don't
                                                          know the answer to anymore then him. If you want to really help him,
                                                          there is only one thing that you can do: stop answering his questions.
                                                          Claim you don't know, banish him away and tell him to look for the
                                                          answers himself. If he continues to ask, by all means, be rude!

                                                          What usually happens is that the poor newbie is completely at awe. How
                                                          can he solve the problem if you're not helping him? he needs the problem
                                                          solved! he has to finish that ptrogram and it doesn't work and you
                                                          completly refuse to answer his questions, what to do? he will be forced
                                                          tolook inwards for the answer. He will try and immitate what he saw you
                                                          do when you didn't know the answers to the questions he asked: go look
                                                          for the answer in the man pages, or the FAQs or google or even, heaven
                                                          forbirds! think for himself. And of course, once he does that, it will
                                                          work and he will gain confidence in his own ability to solve problems on
                                                          his own that will drive him to try and solve the next problem by himself
                                                          as well. After a couple of times he REALLY wont be a newbie anymore. He
                                                          has learned.

                                                          Now, the poor newbie had the real answer all along. He knew how to look
                                                          for himself, he just didn't knew he knew. Can you teach him to know that
                                                          he knows? of course not, what rubbish! all you can do is deliver a most
                                                          shocking blow to his head (metaphorically, of course ;-) and tell him to
                                                          stop this nonsense in the hope he will awaken. This is exactly what I
                                                          was aiming for.

                                                          Gilad.

                                                          --
                                                          Gilad Ben-Yossef <gilad@...>
                                                          Code mangler, senior coffee drinker and VP SIGSEGV
                                                          Qlusters ltd.

                                                          "To err is human. To realy fsck up you need a computer. For
                                                          those really large scale disastears, an SSI cluster is a must."






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                                                        • Amir Abiri
                                                          From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [snip] ... [snip (Man ! that was long...)] That s nothing ! A good friend of mine had that surgery as well, one
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , May 9, 2002
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            From: "Gilad Ben-Yossef" <gilad@...>

                                                            [snip]

                                                            > I'm not a violent person generally. In fact, ever since the elective
                                                            > brain surgery that implented the blessed electrodes in my frontal lobe I
                                                            > am a good and productive citizen of society and practicly incapable of
                                                            > violence aginst another human being. They make sure to test that the
                                                            > surgery really worked before they let you go out of jail; they can't
                                                            > bloody well release someone who murdered 79 people with an axe get
                                                            > released best on a hunch you know...
                                                            >
                                                            > The problem is that I was one of the early voulenteers and I think they
                                                            > still haven't gotten of all of the bugs out of the early system they
                                                            > installed in my brain. Most of the time all goes well, but once in a
                                                            > while, when someone insults me, I feel the old rage rise in me again and
                                                            > can taste the blood in my mouth and I can't help myself but.... better
                                                            > stop here now. [ To self: Calm down. Breath deep. I am the cool and
                                                            > placid center of universe. I am the cool and placid center of the
                                                            > universe. I don't have to do what the voices in my head tell me. I don't
                                                            > have to do what the voices in my head tell me... oh fuck it! where's my
                                                            > axe?] Be afraid. Be VERY afraid... MUHAHHAHAHAHAHA ;-)

                                                            [snip (Man ! that was long...)]

                                                            That's nothing ! A good friend of mine had that surgery as well, one of the
                                                            first ones two. They probably f**ked something up with him real nasty, since
                                                            when he came out he was cumpolsivly sexualy attracted to Amebas. Imagine
                                                            yourself the horrific trauma inflicted upon a poor nice Dolphin swimming
                                                            around and suddenly seeing a human diver holding a...
                                                            I don't want to talk about it.

                                                            But he's better now, he's studying marine biology in the Technion.

                                                            --
                                                            http://abiri-e.com/
                                                            "God is a programmer".
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