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RE: [hackers-il] Slightly OT: Israel as a police state, and conte mporary politics

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  • Ofir Carny
    I read it, I liked some, objected to some, didn t think my comments were appropriate without the full document. I totally agree about the part that a country
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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      I read it, I liked some, objected to some, didn't think my comments were
      appropriate without the full document.

      I totally agree about the part that a country cannot discriminate between
      citizens based on anything but their actions.

      But, I can't see anything objective about what is reffered here as
      'objectivism', I will not go into my opinions here (until I find out that
      anyone is interested), but I have specific objections to some of your five
      points.

      >3. Israeli arabs do not recieve national security. (claimfully, as a
      >result) Orthodox Jews who do not serve in the army either, do.
      As far as I know, this is simply not true, arabs in avarage are the largest
      beneficiaries of
      national security except for Haredim.

      4. AFAIK this too is wrong, but my data here is a few years old, so it might
      have changed, what is true is that internal
      revenue (tax) in these municipalities is problematic.

      5. How is that discrimination against arabs? They got to vote as anyone
      else.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
      Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:33 PM
      To: Hackers-IL
      Subject: [hackers-il] Slightly OT: Israel as a police state, and
      contemporary politics



      I rode my bike through the Yarqon Park today, like I usually do twice a
      day. As I was going to cross the playground, I was halted by a soldier,
      and was asked for an identifying card. I told him I did not have any, and
      he called his commander.

      I waited for the commander for a few minutes, and I noticed that he asked
      other people, who looked perfectly innocent and harmless to me for ID
      too. Eventually, the commander came and he asked me some questions, and
      instructed me to follow a different route. I did.

      I really don't want to start taking my ID card when I ride my bike. I
      might as well leave it in my biking back-pack, etc. I, and the other
      people that were questioned for an ID, did not look especially harmful, or
      seemed like they would detonate a bomb or start shooting at everybody.

      I asked the soldier why was all this care taken, and he told me that I
      should accept it if I desire peace [="Sheqet"]. But I have trouble
      considering a situation where innocent people are interogated and harassed
      as a very peaceful existence. Ironically, that's exactly what Arafat and
      his ilk desire in the first place.

      How many of you read the beginning of "The Eternal Jew" which I posted
      here? I don't know because I did not receive any comment. I proposed
      there a better way to run Israel, so in the long term most of its
      political problems would be eliminated. Do you think
      philosophical/political discussions are off-topic for this mailing list?
      After all, "The Eternal Jew" is a hack, and we are not called
      "computer-hackers-il".

      Instead of Israelis blaming the present situation on the Palestinians (and
      vice versa), the Israelis should look at their own back yard, and see what
      constitutional and logistic laws discriminate against the Israeli Arabs
      and the Palestinians. Israel does not have a clean record in this regard:

      1. A Jew has a much easier time to become an Israeli citizen than a
      non-Jew.

      2. Israeli arabs are not drafted into the army.

      3. Israeli arabs do not recieve national security. (claimfully, as a
      result) Orthodox Jews who do not serve in the army either, do.

      4. Arab municiplaties recieve much less funding than Jewish ones.

      5. The present Israeli Prime Minister is a war criminal.

      Do you believe Palestinians should think everthing is usual considering
      all this? In a political struggle one should make sure that there's
      nothing wrong on his side. Perfectly nothing. Even the smallest detail can
      bite you in unexpected places.

      Even if one rejects the so-called "objective" ethics, one must agree that
      the Law of a country cannot discriminate against race, belief, gender or
      other such factor.

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish

      There is no IGLU Cabal! The greatest common denominator of its members is
      that they are all human beings. This is also the GCD of humanity, which
      indicates the border between the two is very vague.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
      Home E-mail: shlomif@...

      "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
      "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"



      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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    • Arik Baratz
      Unfortunately for you, Shlomi, the law in Israel specifically instructs you to go around with your ID card at all times from the time you are 16 (maybe I m
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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        Unfortunately for you, Shlomi, the law in Israel specifically instructs you
        to go around with your ID card at all times from the time you are 16 (maybe
        I'm mistaken and it's 18). It is against the law not to carry it around with
        you, so that soldier was right. No, a driver's license is not a substitute
        in the eye of the law, although I haven't found a single person who wasn't
        statisfied with checking it instead.

        As for the other claims, I do not wish to enter a political debate with you
        in this forum. I will just say that I disagree with some of the things you
        have written, which are, as you said, subjective.

        -- Arik

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
        Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:33 PM
        To: Hackers-IL
        Subject: [hackers-il] Slightly OT: Israel as a police state, and
        contemporary politics



        I rode my bike through the Yarqon Park today, like I usually do twice a
        day. As I was going to cross the playground, I was halted by a soldier,
        and was asked for an identifying card. I told him I did not have any, and
        he called his commander.

        I waited for the commander for a few minutes, and I noticed that he asked
        other people, who looked perfectly innocent and harmless to me for ID
        too. Eventually, the commander came and he asked me some questions, and
        instructed me to follow a different route. I did.

        I really don't want to start taking my ID card when I ride my bike. I
        might as well leave it in my biking back-pack, etc. I, and the other
        people that were questioned for an ID, did not look especially harmful, or
        seemed like they would detonate a bomb or start shooting at everybody.

        I asked the soldier why was all this care taken, and he told me that I
        should accept it if I desire peace [="Sheqet"]. But I have trouble
        considering a situation where innocent people are interogated and harassed
        as a very peaceful existence. Ironically, that's exactly what Arafat and
        his ilk desire in the first place.

        How many of you read the beginning of "The Eternal Jew" which I posted
        here? I don't know because I did not receive any comment. I proposed
        there a better way to run Israel, so in the long term most of its
        political problems would be eliminated. Do you think
        philosophical/political discussions are off-topic for this mailing list?
        After all, "The Eternal Jew" is a hack, and we are not called
        "computer-hackers-il".

        Instead of Israelis blaming the present situation on the Palestinians (and
        vice versa), the Israelis should look at their own back yard, and see what
        constitutional and logistic laws discriminate against the Israeli Arabs
        and the Palestinians. Israel does not have a clean record in this regard:

        1. A Jew has a much easier time to become an Israeli citizen than a
        non-Jew.

        2. Israeli arabs are not drafted into the army.

        3. Israeli arabs do not recieve national security. (claimfully, as a
        result) Orthodox Jews who do not serve in the army either, do.

        4. Arab municiplaties recieve much less funding than Jewish ones.

        5. The present Israeli Prime Minister is a war criminal.

        Do you believe Palestinians should think everthing is usual considering
        all this? In a political struggle one should make sure that there's
        nothing wrong on his side. Perfectly nothing. Even the smallest detail can
        bite you in unexpected places.

        Even if one rejects the so-called "objective" ethics, one must agree that
        the Law of a country cannot discriminate against race, belief, gender or
        other such factor.

        Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

        There is no IGLU Cabal! The greatest common denominator of its members is
        that they are all human beings. This is also the GCD of humanity, which
        indicates the border between the two is very vague.

        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
        Home E-mail: shlomif@...

        "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
        "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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      • Chen Shapira
        ... As you know, we don t have a strict topic policy. So you can write what you want. I can mention, that I prefer to keep politics off the list, but this is
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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          > How many of you read the beginning of "The Eternal Jew" which I posted
          > here? I don't know because I did not receive any comment. I proposed
          > there a better way to run Israel, so in the long term most of its
          > political problems would be eliminated. Do you think
          > philosophical/political discussions are off-topic for this
          > mailing list?
          > After all, "The Eternal Jew" is a hack, and we are not called
          > "computer-hackers-il".

          As you know, we don't have a strict topic policy. So you can write what you
          want.
          I can mention, that I prefer to keep politics off the list, but this is only
          my personal preference.

          I can suggest that a more appropriate forum for political/philosophical
          discussion is www.haayal.co.il.
          The audiance there is more varied as well, so you can get comments from a
          wide variaty of people, and not just us geeks.

          I did read your philosophical hack, but I didn't see this list as an
          appropriate forum for discussing it.

          Thanks,
          Chen.
        • Ofir Carny
          Going through my last message I found out that I forgot the main point I was going to make - about the regretful experience you had on your bike. You are
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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            Going through my last message I found out that I forgot the main point I was
            going to make -
            about the regretful experience you had on your bike.

            You are right, that's exactly the point of terorism - the distruption of
            civilian lifestyle.
            However, there is no alternative, if we are to protect the life and health
            of the Israeli citizenry,
            some measures need to be taken. If you can't guarantee a perfect firewall,
            you audit the internals
            of your network. Without asking for ID (which we are required by law to
            carry at all times), auditing would
            be based on race observations (you look like arab who might not be a citizen
            - hence potential terorist VS you look like a Jew - you can't possibly be a
            terorist), which are subjective and discriminative and are bound to fail.

            Sorry, but I don't see an alternative.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif@...]
            Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 1:33 PM
            To: Hackers-IL
            Subject: [hackers-il] Slightly OT: Israel as a police state, and
            contemporary politics



            I rode my bike through the Yarqon Park today, like I usually do twice a
            day. As I was going to cross the playground, I was halted by a soldier,
            and was asked for an identifying card. I told him I did not have any, and
            he called his commander.

            I waited for the commander for a few minutes, and I noticed that he asked
            other people, who looked perfectly innocent and harmless to me for ID
            too. Eventually, the commander came and he asked me some questions, and
            instructed me to follow a different route. I did.

            I really don't want to start taking my ID card when I ride my bike. I
            might as well leave it in my biking back-pack, etc. I, and the other
            people that were questioned for an ID, did not look especially harmful, or
            seemed like they would detonate a bomb or start shooting at everybody.

            I asked the soldier why was all this care taken, and he told me that I
            should accept it if I desire peace [="Sheqet"]. But I have trouble
            considering a situation where innocent people are interogated and harassed
            as a very peaceful existence. Ironically, that's exactly what Arafat and
            his ilk desire in the first place.

            How many of you read the beginning of "The Eternal Jew" which I posted
            here? I don't know because I did not receive any comment. I proposed
            there a better way to run Israel, so in the long term most of its
            political problems would be eliminated. Do you think
            philosophical/political discussions are off-topic for this mailing list?
            After all, "The Eternal Jew" is a hack, and we are not called
            "computer-hackers-il".

            Instead of Israelis blaming the present situation on the Palestinians (and
            vice versa), the Israelis should look at their own back yard, and see what
            constitutional and logistic laws discriminate against the Israeli Arabs
            and the Palestinians. Israel does not have a clean record in this regard:

            1. A Jew has a much easier time to become an Israeli citizen than a
            non-Jew.

            2. Israeli arabs are not drafted into the army.

            3. Israeli arabs do not recieve national security. (claimfully, as a
            result) Orthodox Jews who do not serve in the army either, do.

            4. Arab municiplaties recieve much less funding than Jewish ones.

            5. The present Israeli Prime Minister is a war criminal.

            Do you believe Palestinians should think everthing is usual considering
            all this? In a political struggle one should make sure that there's
            nothing wrong on his side. Perfectly nothing. Even the smallest detail can
            bite you in unexpected places.

            Even if one rejects the so-called "objective" ethics, one must agree that
            the Law of a country cannot discriminate against race, belief, gender or
            other such factor.

            Regards,

            Shlomi Fish

            There is no IGLU Cabal! The greatest common denominator of its members is
            that they are all human beings. This is also the GCD of humanity, which
            indicates the border between the two is very vague.

            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
            Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
            Home E-mail: shlomif@...

            "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
            "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Shlomi Fish
            If discussing Objectivism, Jewish Philosophy, and Israeli Politics is OT here, (I don t deny it) then maybe I should start a Philosophy-IL chapter of
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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              If discussing Objectivism, Jewish Philosophy, and Israeli Politics is OT
              here, (I don't deny it) then maybe I should start a Philosophy-IL chapter
              of Hackers-IL?

              NAturally, even in philo-il, I would not want people to start political
              flame-wars without having some creativity. (The left-wing rules! No,
              the right-wing rules! No, center rules!) But hopefully, we can leave
              obscure stuff that are not directly related to computers, technology and
              sciense, out of the way.

              Let me know if you think it is a good idea.

              Regards,

              Shlomi Fish


              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
              Home E-mail: shlomif@...

              "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
              "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
            • Chen Shapira
              ... I think that www.haayal.co.il is a nice forum for philosophy/culture/politics discussions, so I see no need to start a new forum instead of joining an
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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                > Let me know if you think it is a good idea.

                I think that www.haayal.co.il is a nice forum for
                philosophy/culture/politics discussions, so I see no need to start a new
                forum instead of joining an existing one, that exists for 2 years already
                and managed to attract some very bright people from a wide range of
                backgrounds.

                I enjoy political discussions better when they are professionals in the
                forum, those who study political science, economy and law. Otherwise, I
                feel such discussions suffer from a lack of substance.

                Sorry for the blatant promotion, I don't have a personal interest in that
                forum, I just think it's the proper place for such discussions.

                Thanks,
                Chen.
              • Omer Zak
                ... I strongly recommend keeping politics off the list. This subject is very volatile, and may cause rather nasty explosion, which will destroy the only forum
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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                  On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Chen Shapira wrote:

                  > As you know, we don't have a strict topic policy. So you can write what you
                  > want.
                  > I can mention, that I prefer to keep politics off the list, but this is only
                  > my personal preference.

                  I strongly recommend keeping politics off the list.

                  This subject is very volatile, and may cause rather nasty explosion, which
                  will destroy the only forum for Israeli hackers, which I know about. As
                  Chen said, there are several other places suitable for political
                  discussions.

                  People, who participate in Hackers-IL, participate in order to enjoy good
                  hacks. If they wanted to enjoy politics, they'd participate in political
                  discussion groups.

                  The thing closest to politics, which I'd admit to the list is the politics
                  of intellectual property, the Sklyarov affair, SSSCA, the dirty tricks of
                  Microsoft and the like.

                  --- Omer
                  Long Live FriBidi!
                  WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
                • Amir Abiri
                  From: Shlomi Fish ... Basicly what you hope to achieve is an internet Philosophical/Political debate among the very minimized
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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                    From: "Shlomi Fish" <shlomif@...>
                    >
                    > If discussing Objectivism, Jewish Philosophy, and Israeli Politics is OT
                    > here, (I don't deny it) then maybe I should start a Philosophy-IL chapter
                    > of Hackers-IL?
                    >
                    > Naturally, even in philo-il, I would not want people to start political
                    > flame-wars without having some creativity. (The left-wing rules! No,
                    > the right-wing rules! No, center rules!) But hopefully, we can leave
                    > obscure stuff that are not directly related to computers, technology and
                    > sciense, out of the way.
                    >


                    Basicly what you hope to achieve is an internet Philosophical/Political
                    debate among the very minimized group of israeli
                    geeks/programmers/hackers/Linux lovers... Right ?

                    Q: Why don't you like debating with ordinary people ?

                    --
                    http://abiri-e.com/
                    "God is a programmer".
                  • Omer Zak
                    ... I think it would make more sense to find an existing discussion group (in Walla, Ort, Tapuz or whatever) which covers the subjects in question, and move
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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                      On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote:

                      > If discussing Objectivism, Jewish Philosophy, and Israeli Politics is OT
                      > here, (I don't deny it) then maybe I should start a Philosophy-IL chapter
                      > of Hackers-IL?

                      I think it would make more sense to find an existing discussion group (in
                      Walla, Ort, Tapuz or whatever) which covers the subjects in question, and
                      move those discussions to that group.

                      --- Omer
                      There is no IGLU Cabal. Someone started an IGLU Cabal without being aware
                      that one already exists. As a result, the two IGLU Cabals annihilated
                      each other. But oh god, the resulting photon pair was very colorful,
                      stunningly bright, angelically translucent, and shiny like superconducting
                      liquid hydrogen.
                      WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
                    • Arik Baratz
                      ... I ve asked a few questions about the subject, and the response I got from several people was that in most Arab vilages the residents don t pay municipal
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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                        >> 4. Arab municiplaties recieve much less funding than Jewish ones.
                        >
                        > This appears true, but I never saw any statistics showing this to be true.
                        > I did see other statistics showing the reverse (and how corrupt mayors are
                        > taking the money for themselves and for their friends), so I no longer
                        > know what to believe.

                        I've asked a few questions about the subject, and the response I got from
                        several people was that in most Arab vilages the residents don't pay
                        municipal taxes (ARNONA). Arab municipalities are threfore always out of
                        budget. Plus there is an issue of illegal construction (see Faradis, on rd.
                        4, near junct. Faradis for a fine example). The destruction of illegal
                        buildings is the responsibility of the municipality, and since it is
                        defunct...

                        There are successful Arab vilages, but I'm afraid they're a minority. I've
                        been to Bakka (a)l Rarbia on the last Yom Kippur and the main street looks
                        quite nice, just like non-Arab vilages.

                        -- Arik


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                      • Ofir Carny
                        I couldn t say it better. Only two points: If the soldier was from Magav, then he is also a policeman (and this is my guess), otherwise he can t do to much
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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                          I couldn't say it better.

                          Only two points:
                          If the soldier was from Magav, then he is also a policeman (and this is my
                          guess), otherwise he can't do to much
                          (e.g. can't arrest), and you are AFAIK (and IANAL) not required to follow
                          his instructions (not that I would recommend refusing instructions from an
                          armed man).

                          The '_full_ service' is exactly what differentiates this kind of policy from
                          discrimination (i.e. it discriminates based on deeds rather than race). Many
                          don't finish whole service and by some definitions HAREDIM did some service
                          (although it is less than a day...). Almost anyone _can_ volunteer to do
                          military service (including arabs and medically released). And many are
                          released before the scheduled date (hence no 'full service' for them). I
                          have many friends and friends' friends who are in this status and do not
                          enjoy 'full service' benefits.

                          BTW, the differance between arabs and haredim, is that the latter are
                          'malshab's (enlistable) and ask for release from service (actually
                          postponement which turns into release at age 28 AFAIK), and the first are
                          exempt and should volunteer.

                          [sorry for typos - no speller]

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Nadav Har'El [mailto:nyh@...]
                          Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 3:51 PM
                          To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [hackers-il] Slightly OT: Israel as a police state, and
                          contemporary politics


                          On Sun, Mar 10, 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Slightly OT:
                          Israel as a police state, and contemporary politics":
                          >
                          > I rode my bike through the Yarqon Park today, like I usually do twice a
                          > day. As I was going to cross the playground, I was halted by a soldier,
                          > and was asked for an identifying card. I told him I did not have any, and
                          > he called his commander.

                          The law in Israel says you must carry an ID at all times. It sucks, and
                          doesn't
                          exist in some other countries (e.g., the US), but it does here.
                          Note that a drivers license is a legal alternative for your "teudat zehut"
                          (in everything execept voting), so I always carry my drivers license
                          instead.
                          It's small enough to put together with a credit card, a little bit of cash,
                          and keys I always carry around.

                          Another issue is since when does a soldier have any right to tell you what
                          to do. We're not officially in a state of war, so as far as I know soldiers
                          have absolutely no jurisdiction over civilians. Of course it doesn't mean
                          I'd
                          want to mess around with a hot-headed and thick-headed 19-year-old carrying
                          an M16... When I visited Russia a few years ago, I was warned to beware of
                          policemen - that more people were injured by policeman the previous year
                          than
                          by criminals. I hope it doesn't get to this in Israel too...

                          > I waited for the commander for a few minutes, and I noticed that he asked
                          > other people, who looked perfectly innocent and harmless to me for ID
                          > too. Eventually, the commander came and he asked me some questions, and
                          > instructed me to follow a different route. I did.

                          If he instructed you to follow a different route, maybe there was something
                          dangerous about your originial route? Maybe there was a bomb threat, or they
                          knew a terrorist was supposed to walk through there, or something? If that
                          was the case, these soldiers actually did you a favor...

                          > might as well leave it in my biking back-pack, etc. I, and the other
                          > people that were questioned for an ID, did not look especially harmful, or
                          > seemed like they would detonate a bomb or start shooting at everybody.

                          Unfortunately, the people who *do* detonate a bomb or start shooting don't
                          necessarily look "harmful". They don't have horns, don't look like Satan,
                          and don't carry a "shahid" sign. If anything, they look like Arabs. Do you
                          suggest it should be ok to harass people who look like Arabs, but not people
                          (like yourself) who don't?

                          > 3. Israeli arabs do not recieve national security. (claimfully, as a
                          > result) Orthodox Jews who do not serve in the army either, do.

                          This is plain wrong. Doesn't the Israeli army protect the Arab citizens
                          as well? Didn't they get gas masks, just like everyone else, during the
                          gulf war? The enemy planes, chemical weapons, and so on, can kill Arabs
                          in Israel just like they can kill Jews, and it is the duty of the army to
                          protect the entire population.

                          Besides a few hideous incidents (like the one in Kfar Kasem in the 50s, if
                          I remember correctly), the army sort-of upholds its purpose.

                          Note that I'm talking about the army, not police.

                          > 4. Arab municiplaties recieve much less funding than Jewish ones.

                          This appears true, but I never saw any statistics showing this to be true.
                          I did see other statistics showing the reverse (and how corrupt mayors are
                          taking the money for themselves and for their friends), so I no longer
                          know what to believe.

                          You can start by changing smaller things. I saw from experience of someone
                          close to me how the Technion has certain "laws" making differ criterions
                          for accepting young people who didn't go to the army, as compared to Atudaim
                          or people after the army. The Technion claims these rules have to do with
                          them having to manage with a deluge of Atudaim, but in reality, it is quite
                          clear that these rules are an excellent way of keeping Arabs out (or at
                          least giving them a hard time, so they'd go to other universities).
                          Many other places look for people "after army service", "with full army
                          service" or give incentives to such people - even when that place has
                          nothing
                          to do with army experience. Let me tell you, all these rules were not made
                          for keeping people like Aviv Gefen (who was exempt from the army because of
                          medical problems, supposedly) out.

                          Another small you can do for more equality in Israel: please don't ask
                          soldiers/guards/etc. to only harass people who look like Arabs. Let them
                          harass you too. Whenever you see a guard, open your bag and let him see it -
                          don't wait for him to stop only Arabs and make them feel different and
                          unwelcome.


                          --
                          Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Mar 10 2002, 26 Adar
                          5762
                          nyh@...
                          |-----------------------------------------
                          Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Don't accept your dog's admiration as
                          http://nadav.harel.org.il |conclusive evidence that you're
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                        • Shlomi Fish
                          ... No, I don t. It s just that Ha ayal is in Hebrew and is not a mailing list. I like debating with ordinary people, or at least those that are intellectual
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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                            On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Amir Abiri wrote:

                            >
                            > From: "Shlomi Fish" <shlomif@...>
                            > >
                            > > If discussing Objectivism, Jewish Philosophy, and Israeli Politics is OT
                            > > here, (I don't deny it) then maybe I should start a Philosophy-IL chapter
                            > > of Hackers-IL?
                            > >
                            > > Naturally, even in philo-il, I would not want people to start political
                            > > flame-wars without having some creativity. (The left-wing rules! No,
                            > > the right-wing rules! No, center rules!) But hopefully, we can leave
                            > > obscure stuff that are not directly related to computers, technology and
                            > > sciense, out of the way.
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > Basicly what you hope to achieve is an internet Philosophical/Political
                            > debate among the very minimized group of israeli
                            > geeks/programmers/hackers/Linux lovers... Right ?
                            >
                            > Q: Why don't you like debating with ordinary people ?
                            >

                            No, I don't. It's just that Ha'ayal is in Hebrew and is not a mailing
                            list. I like debating with ordinary people, or at least those that are
                            intellectual enough to hold an intelligent discussion. I used to debate
                            with my apartment-mates and their friends, or with my next door neighbours
                            (in Haifa) about all sort of things, and I enjoyed it.

                            I like to make sure the posts of the discussion arrive at one of my
                            mailboxes, where I can read them on my free time, without having to have
                            a "web-forum" discipline. And Hebrew is many times inaccesible to me due
                            to the fact I work on Linux. (note to Tzafrir: yeah, I know I'm too lazy
                            to start messing with the heb-on-X hacks).

                            I would welcome non-technical people to join Philosophy-IL if they wish.
                            But I'm looking for an intelligent forum where I can enjoy such things
                            considering my technical whims.

                            Regards,

                            Shlomi Fish

                            > --
                            > http://abiri-e.com/
                            > "God is a programmer".
                            >
                            >
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                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                            Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                            Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                            "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                            "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                          • Shlomi Fish
                            ... Agreed. ... Good hacks or discussion on programming. Like whether OO programming is a mandtory paradigm or one that should not be enforced upon the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 10, 2002
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                              On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Omer Zak wrote:

                              >
                              > On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Chen Shapira wrote:
                              >
                              > > As you know, we don't have a strict topic policy. So you can write what you
                              > > want.
                              > > I can mention, that I prefer to keep politics off the list, but this is only
                              > > my personal preference.
                              >
                              > I strongly recommend keeping politics off the list.
                              >
                              > This subject is very volatile, and may cause rather nasty explosion, which
                              > will destroy the only forum for Israeli hackers, which I know about. As
                              > Chen said, there are several other places suitable for political
                              > discussions.
                              >

                              Agreed.

                              > People, who participate in Hackers-IL, participate in order to enjoy good
                              > hacks. If they wanted to enjoy politics, they'd participate in political
                              > discussion groups.
                              >

                              Good hacks or discussion on programming. Like whether OO programming is a
                              mandtory paradigm or one that should not be enforced upon the programmer.
                              (sorry Guy, I could not resist).

                              > The thing closest to politics, which I'd admit to the list is the politics
                              > of intellectual property, the Sklyarov affair, SSSCA, the dirty tricks of
                              > Microsoft and the like.
                              >

                              Agreed. Let's keep this list free of "pure" politics.

                              Regards,

                              Shlomi Fish

                              > --- Omer
                              > Long Live FriBidi!
                              > WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
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                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                              Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                              "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                              "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
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