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Re: The FORTH Question (was: Re: To Hash or not to Hash)

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  • Shlomi Fish
    ... Sounds like a good compromise. In any case, deriving a class from a base hash class may make the code a bit more difficult but not much, assuming the code
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
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      On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Omer Zak wrote:

      >
      > On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote:
      >
      > > On 5 Feb 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
      > >
      > > > Omer Musaev <omerm@...> writes:
      > > >
      > > > > some more esoteric features entered the library, while some basic
      > > > > ones ( most notably hash ) are absent.
      > > >
      > > > How many times have I missed that! It does come with gcc, but is not
      > > > standard...
      > > >
      > >
      > > I first thought that it was strange that STL lacked hashes. But then I
      > > remembered something: hashing theory is very comprehensive and there are a
      > > lot of ways to implement and tweak a hash. Points that come to mind:
      > >
      > > 1. Chaining vs. Open-Addressing.
      >
      > [... more options were snipped ...]
      >
      > > So basically the dilemma is what hash implementation to have, or what
      > > range of hashing options to support. I'm not sure it is possible to build
      > > a hash abstraction that would support all of the hashing options and will
      > > not be too bloated or unmaintainable.
      > >
      > > Had STL contained a hash, it would have been possible that some
      > > programmers could have (and possibly rightfully) blamed their program's
      > > performance on the hash. Since a hash is usually quite trivial to program,
      > > it's, IMO, a good idea to sometimes use your own custom hash
      > > implementation.
      >
      > On the other hand, let's not forget what I believe to be the reason for
      > FORTH's demise. FORTH is a very elegant language, with unorthodox ideas.
      > It was invented by Chuck Moore, who is having his own eccentric (and
      > fresh) ideas about how one should program.
      >
      > The reason FORTH didn't take hold (at least in my own projects) was that
      > it lacked standard libraries for the things which I needed. It expected
      > people to reinvent the wheel (and optimize it to their project's needs)
      > all the time. It didn't take to heart Pareto's Law (80% of the
      > computer time/programmer time/memory requirements/bug expenses of software
      > are in 20% of the code). People should optimize and design their own
      > implementations of data structures only when and where they are critical
      > to the software's performance. For non-critical parts of the software,
      > standard libraries are good enough and should be used.
      >
      > The morale of the story to hash functions in STL:
      > STL should have provided a standard hash implementation (like Perl does).
      > But the standard implementation should (like implementations of all
      > other STL data structuers) have provisions for people to substitute their
      > optimized algorithms when those algorithms are really needed for a
      > specific application.

      Sounds like a good compromise. In any case, deriving a class from a base
      hash class may make the code a bit more difficult but not much, assuming
      the code makes use of hash<mytype> & instead of
      my_own_efficient_hash<mytype> & (pardon my C++ and STL ignorance in case
      it shows).

      > --- Omer
      > There is no IGLU Cabal. We'll organize the next meeting when we finish
      > to prove, from First Principles, that 1 + 1 = 2.

      Purposely taking the joke too seriously:

      I believe Russel and Whitham managed to prove arithmetics from logic in
      "Prinicipa Mathematica". However, I believe 2 is defined as "1 + 1", or as
      the number that follows one, even though it undoubtedly has much more
      properties.

      It's like the De-Morgan Laws (not(A and B) = not(A) or not(B) and vice
      versa). One can show that they hold for every A and B and that's enough of
      a proof. I am not referring to the general case (for A1, A2, A3, A4...)
      that has to be proved by mathemtical induction.

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish

      There is no IGLU Cabal! One of its most prominent members commited suicide
      when he failed to find a proof that the axiom that "A is A, and A is not
      not-A" holds for every A.

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      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
      Home E-mail: shlomif@...

      "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
      "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
    • Shlomi Fish
      ... Actually if f(x) = C, where C is a constant, no such hash function exist or can exist. ... Have you ever tried running md5sum on a CD-ROM you just
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 6, 2002
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        On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Arik Baratz wrote:

        > online for download ]?=
        > MIME-Version: 1.0
        > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
        >
        >
        > Hashes are application specific. A good hash is good in a specific situation -
        > that is, for each function f(x) of a random variable x there is a hash function
        > h(f(x)) that generates a uniform distribution.
        >

        Actually if f(x) = C, where C is a constant, no such hash function exist
        or can exist.

        > If you want a catch-all hash function, use a cryptographic hash like MD5.

        Have you ever tried running md5sum on a CD-ROM you just downloaded from
        the Internet? It takes forever to run. Usually, one will prefer to use a
        non-cryptographic hash function because it is faster and albeit can be
        tricked, usually generates equally good results. If there are a limited
        number of elements, than a Perfect Hash, which you'll have to compile from
        the set, would probably be a better choice.

        This is of course assuming the keys are fully serializable in some way.
        Sometimes, preparing a serialized key is not very straightforward.

        > If you
        > want a lean and mean function, you\'d have to analyze the domain you are working
        > with and think up a function that hashes it ok.
        >

        That was the case with Freecell Solver, where I recently switched from MD5
        to Perl's hash function and did not notice too big a difference in the
        speed.

        However, the hash function being chosen is just one of the elements of
        constructing a good hash (albeit a very important one, because a hash is
        only as good as it). Refer to my previous posts for other elements like
        chaining vs. open addressing, promoting or caching elements, etc. In C++,
        I'm not sure how well can one re-use the chain's elements, when they are
        re-hashed, and just pointing them to differnt elements, which is another
        technique I used in FCS.

        What I like about ANSI C, is that it does what you want when you want it,
        and if you know what you're doing there are very little side-effects. It
        does provide for a greater error ratio, than most other languages I know,
        though.

        > The glibc hash is very simplistic - you can beat it in many ways.
        >

        s/glibc/glib/? (glibc does not contain a hash, AFAI'm aware).

        My point was that if you are working on a Gtk+/GNOME application, you are
        stuck with the glib's hash whether you want it or not, because it's part
        of the Gtk+/GNOME architecture. You can code your own hash in ANSI C, but
        then you may be criticized for making the code unreadable, or deviating
        from the Standard Way of Doing Things<tm> there. And in Glib's 1.2 at
        least, I believe it's impossible to define a hash with the same interface
        as Glib's hash, not to mention that the interface itself is not very
        optimizied (or sensible).

        Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

        > -- Arik
        >
        > On 06.02.2002 at 15:49:49, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:
        >
        > > On 5 Feb 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
        > >
        > > > Omer Musaev <omerm@...> writes:
        > > >
        > > > > some more esoteric features entered the library, while some basic
        > > > > ones ( most notably hash ) are absent.
        > > >
        > > > How many times have I missed that! It does come with gcc, but is not
        > > > standard...
        > > >
        > >
        > > I first thought that it was strange that STL lacked hashes. But then I
        > > remembered something: hashing theory is very comprehensive and there are a
        > > lot of ways to implement and tweak a hash. Points that come to mind:
        > >
        > > 1. Chaining vs. Open-Addressing.
        > >
        > > 2. The Hash function being chosen. (refer to:
        > > http://burtleburtle.net/bob/hash/)
        > >
        > > 3. Modulo bucketing vs. multiplicative bucketing.
        > >
        > > 4. Re-hashing.
        > >
        > > 5. Storing the hash values next to the keys (to make for faster
        > > comparisons and re-hashings)
        > >
        > > 6. Promoting or caching frequently accessed elements in the backets.
        > >
        > > 7. Using something other than a linked list as a bucket - a doubly-linked
        > > list, a binary tree, a vector, another hash (;-) - I know someone who did
        > > that because he did not know better),
        > >
        > > 8. Perfect Hashing.
        > >
        > > 9. Universal Hashing.
        > >
        > > 10. Which operations: an atomic check-if-exists and if not add? An atomic
        > > check-and-replace, an insert-if-not-exist, etc.
        > >
        > > ---
        > >
        > > When working on Freecell Solver, I noticed that my own hash performed
        > > better than Glib\'s because I used better optimizations. I believe it would
        > > have out-performed Glib\'s hash in most other cases. (Note - it\'s API is
        > > still very incomplete, because of the requirements of FCS). Had I written
        > > a Gtk+/GNOME app, I probably would have been \"forced\" to use it because
        > > it\'s part of the Gtk+ architecture, which would have made the application
        > > slower.
        > >
        > > Some languages, like Perl, force a certain implementation (and a certain
        > > hash function) on their users. In Perl at least, one can program
        > > primitives that behave like hashes in Perl and in C, but they are not the
        > > default. Mark-Jason Dominus demonstrates that the hash function can go
        > > wrong:
        > >
        > > http://perl.plover.com/#badhash
        > >
        > > So basically the dilemma is what hash implementation to have, or what
        > > range of hashing options to support. I\'m not sure it is possible to build
        > > a hash abstraction that would support all of the hashing options and will
        > > not be too bloated or unmaintainable.
        > >
        > > Had STL contained a hash, it would have been possible that some
        > > programmers could have (and possibly rightfully) blamed their program\'s
        > > performance on the hash. Since a hash is usually quite trivial to program,
        > > it\'s, IMO, a good idea to sometimes use your own custom hash
        > > implementation.
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Shlomi Fish
        > >
        > > There is no IGLU Cabal! They tried to save complexity and preferred to use
        > > a hash over a balanced binary tree. They managed to insert all of the
        > > elements in O(n) time, but then discovered it would take an extra
        > > O(n*log(n)) to print them in order. This caused confusion and
        > > disappointment and brought the demise of the cabal.
        > >
        > >
        > > > > [1] http://www.stlport.org/resources/StepanovUSA.html
        > > >
        > > > There is a great passage there about Stepanov\'s early realization that
        > > > \"agorithms are defined on algebraic structures\". In my head, it echoes
        > > > the \"show me your structures and the block diagram becomes irrelevant\"
        > > > very nicely.
        > > >
        > > > What does the hackers-il population think of Stepanov\'s criticism of
        > > > OOP?
        > > >
        > > > \"I have yet to see an interesting piece of code that comes from these
        > > > OO people.\"
        > > >
        > > > \"...It might be a profitable thing for all your readers to learn Java,
        > > > but it has no intellectual value whatsoever.\"
        > > >
        > > > What I did like was the \"Money Oriented Programming\" moniker ;-)
        > > >
        > > > --
        > > > Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
        > > > \"If it ain\'t broken, it has not got enough features yet.\"
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        > > Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
        > > Home E-mail: shlomif@...
        > >
        > > \"Let\'s suppose you have a table with 2^n cups...\"
        > > \"Wait a second - is n a natural number?\"
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Arik Baratz
        > System Engineer
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        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
        Home E-mail: shlomif@...

        "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
        "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
      • Ofir Carny
        As far as I remember, for some applications, you can also use a random hash in order to avoid being tricked. This means a hash function which is not constant
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
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          As far as I remember, for some applications, you can also use a random hash
          in order to avoid being tricked.

          This means a hash function which is not constant (or depends on another not
          constant parameter).

          Ofir


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        • Nadav Har'El
          ... What do you mean? If you place an entry somewhere in the table, and next time you go looking for it your random hash lands you somewhere else, how will
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
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            On Thu, Feb 07, 2002, Ofir Carny wrote about "RE: [hackers-il] Re: To Hash or not to Hash [was Re: \"On Lisp\" now available ]":
            > As far as I remember, for some applications, you can also use a random hash
            > in order to avoid being tricked.
            >
            > This means a hash function which is not constant (or depends on another not
            > constant parameter).

            What do you mean? If you place an entry somewhere in the table, and next
            time you go looking for it your "random hash" lands you somewhere else, how
            will you find that existing entry? Maybe you mean ordering entries in one
            hash chain in a random order? But I can't see what that would get you -
            hash chains are supposed to be short anyway.

            --
            Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Feb 7 2002, 25 Shevat 5762
            nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
            Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |The world is coming to an end ... SAVE
            http://nadav.harel.org.il |YOUR BUFFERS!!!
          • Ofir Carny
            As I said, it is only good for specific applications, obviously, you can t change a hash function without rebuilding an existing table, however in some
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
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              As I said, it is only good for specific applications, obviously, you can't
              change a hash function without rebuilding an existing table, however in some
              applications it is enough to prevent a malicious attempt to 'break' your
              function.

              I didn't refer to the chain, however (unrelated), you can use a second
              function to use the table for the chain, avoiding memory allocation for
              collisions in a constant sized table.
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Nadav Har'El [mailto:nyh@...]
              Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:39 AM
              To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [hackers-il] Re: To Hash or not to Hash [was Re: \"On
              Lisp\" now available ]


              On Thu, Feb 07, 2002, Ofir Carny wrote about "RE: [hackers-il] Re: To Hash
              or not to Hash [was Re: \"On Lisp\" now available ]":
              > As far as I remember, for some applications, you can also use a random
              hash
              > in order to avoid being tricked.
              >
              > This means a hash function which is not constant (or depends on another
              not
              > constant parameter).

              What do you mean? If you place an entry somewhere in the table, and next
              time you go looking for it your "random hash" lands you somewhere else, how
              will you find that existing entry? Maybe you mean ordering entries in one
              hash chain in a random order? But I can't see what that would get you -
              hash chains are supposed to be short anyway.

              --
              Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Feb 7 2002, 25 Shevat
              5762
              nyh@...
              |-----------------------------------------
              Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |The world is coming to an end ... SAVE
              http://nadav.harel.org.il |YOUR BUFFERS!!!

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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            • Nadav Har'El
              ... Oh, I see - you meant choosing, once, a *hash function* at random, but then use the same hash function all the time? Ok. -- Nadav Har El
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
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                On Thu, Feb 07, 2002, Ofir Carny wrote about "RE: [hackers-il] Re: To Hash or not to Hash [was Re: \"On Lisp\" now available ]":
                > As I said, it is only good for specific applications, obviously, you can't
                > change a hash function without rebuilding an existing table, however in some
                > applications it is enough to prevent a malicious attempt to 'break' your
                > function.

                Oh, I see - you meant choosing, once, a *hash function* at random, but then
                use the same hash function all the time? Ok.

                --
                Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Feb 7 2002, 25 Shevat 5762
                nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Unlike Microsoft, a restaurant will give
                http://nadav.harel.org.il |me food for free if I find a bug in it!
              • Shlomi Fish
                ... There is a methodology to construct a random hash function out of a universal set of hash functions. This is called Universal Hashing, and I studied about
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
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                  On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:

                  > On Thu, Feb 07, 2002, Ofir Carny wrote about "RE: [hackers-il] Re: To Hash or not to Hash [was Re: \"On Lisp\" now available ]":
                  > > As I said, it is only good for specific applications, obviously, you can't
                  > > change a hash function without rebuilding an existing table, however in some
                  > > applications it is enough to prevent a malicious attempt to 'break' your
                  > > function.
                  >
                  > Oh, I see - you meant choosing, once, a *hash function* at random, but then
                  > use the same hash function all the time? Ok.
                  >

                  There is a methodology to construct a random hash function out of a
                  universal set of hash functions. This is called Universal Hashing, and I
                  studied about it in my DS and Algorithms course. An example for it, would
                  be to randomize an arbitrary string to prepend (or append) to the data
                  before it is MD5'ed. That way, even if the user deliberately creates
                  different strings whose first 32-bit MD5 bits are the same, he'll still
                  won't be able to out-smart the hash, because the prefix will make their
                  salt values completely different.

                  Of course, letting the user know what the prefix is will render it
                  useless. So it's kind of like a "security by obscurity" methodolgy.

                  Regards,

                  > --
                  > Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Feb 7 2002, 25 Shevat 5762
                  > nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                  > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Unlike Microsoft, a restaurant will give
                  > http://nadav.harel.org.il |me food for free if I find a bug in it!
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >



                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                  Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                  Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                  "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                  "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                • Arik Baratz
                  ailable ]?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 ... - ... function ... Oh yeah? how about f(x) = rand(seed)? Obviously, if f(x)=C,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
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                    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

                    On 07.02.2002 at 09:01:02, Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> wrote:

                    > >
                    > > Hashes are application specific. A good hash is good in a specific situation
                    -
                    > > that is, for each function f(x) of a random variable x there is a hash
                    function
                    > > h(f(x)) that generates a uniform distribution.
                    > Actually if f(x) = C, where C is a constant, no such hash function exist
                    > or can exist.

                    Oh yeah? how about f(x) = rand(seed)? Obviously, if f(x)=C, you might want to
                    use a data structure different than a hash anyways.

                    > > If you want a catch-all hash function, use a cryptographic hash like MD5.
                    > Have you ever tried running md5sum on a CD-ROM you just downloaded from
                    > the Internet? It takes forever to run. Usually, one will prefer to use a
                    > non-cryptographic hash function because it is faster and albeit can be
                    > tricked, usually generates equally good results. If there are a limited
                    > number of elements, than a Perfect Hash, which you\'ll have to compile from
                    > the set, would probably be a better choice.
                    >
                    > This is of course assuming the keys are fully serializable in some way.
                    > Sometimes, preparing a serialized key is not very straightforward.

                    Actually I have just md5sum-ed a 2GB file, so I know how slow it is... I totaly
                    agree that baring special circumstances (i.e. in order to create the trapdoor
                    effect, say, in issuing confirmation numbers for flights, when the confirmation
                    cannot lead back to info in the ticket).

                    > > If you
                    > > want a lean and mean function, you\\\'d have to analyze the domain you are
                    working
                    > > with and think up a function that hashes it ok.
                    > That was the case with Freecell Solver, where I recently switched from MD5
                    > to Perl\'s hash function and did not notice too big a difference in the
                    > speed.
                    >
                    > However, the hash function being chosen is just one of the elements of
                    > constructing a good hash (albeit a very important one, because a hash is
                    > only as good as it). Refer to my previous posts for other elements like
                    > chaining vs. open addressing, promoting or caching elements, etc. In C++,
                    > I\'m not sure how well can one re-use the chain\'s elements, when they are
                    > re-hashed, and just pointing them to differnt elements, which is another
                    > technique I used in FCS.
                    >
                    > What I like about ANSI C, is that it does what you want when you want it,
                    > and if you know what you\'re doing there are very little side-effects. It
                    > does provide for a greater error ratio, than most other languages I know,
                    > though.
                    >
                    > > The glibc hash is very simplistic - you can beat it in many ways.
                    > >
                    >
                    > s/glibc/glib/? (glibc does not contain a hash, AFAI\'m aware).

                    yes

                    > My point was that if you are working on a Gtk+/GNOME application, you are
                    > stuck with the glib\'s hash whether you want it or not, because it\'s part
                    > of the Gtk+/GNOME architecture. You can code your own hash in ANSI C, but
                    > then you may be criticized for making the code unreadable, or deviating
                    > from the Standard Way of Doing Things<tm> there. And in Glib\'s 1.2 at
                    > least, I believe it\'s impossible to define a hash with the same interface
                    > as Glib\'s hash, not to mention that the interface itself is not very
                    > optimizied (or sensible).

                    Well, the SWoDT is not always the best, and you ought not always to listen to
                    what other people say about your style. Well, maybe listen, but not always
                    embrace.

                    -- Arik
                  • Arik Baratz
                    vailable ]?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Perhaps all you want is to distribute a set of values in a uniform fashion. -- Arik
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
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                      vailable ]?=
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                      Perhaps all you want is to distribute a set of values in a uniform fashion.

                      -- Arik

                      On 07.02.2002 at 12:09:56, Ofir Carny <ofir@...> wrote:

                      > As I said, it is only good for specific applications, obviously, you can\'t
                      > change a hash function without rebuilding an existing table, however in some
                      > applications it is enough to prevent a malicious attempt to \'break\' your
                      > function.
                      >
                      > I didn\'t refer to the chain, however (unrelated), you can use a second
                      > function to use the table for the chain, avoiding memory allocation for
                      > collisions in a constant sized table.
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Nadav Har\'El [mailto:nyh@...]
                      > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:39 AM
                      > To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [hackers-il] Re: To Hash or not to Hash [was Re: \\\"On
                      > Lisp\\\" now available ]
                      >
                      >
                      > On Thu, Feb 07, 2002, Ofir Carny wrote about \"RE: [hackers-il] Re: To Hash
                      > or not to Hash [was Re: \\\"On Lisp\\\" now available ]\":
                      > > As far as I remember, for some applications, you can also use a random
                      > hash
                      > > in order to avoid being tricked.
                      > >
                      > > This means a hash function which is not constant (or depends on another
                      > not
                      > > constant parameter).
                      >
                      > What do you mean? If you place an entry somewhere in the table, and next
                      > time you go looking for it your \"random hash\" lands you somewhere else,
                      how
                      > will you find that existing entry? Maybe you mean ordering entries in one
                      > hash chain in a random order? But I can\'t see what that would get you -
                      > hash chains are supposed to be short anyway.
                      >
                      > --
                      > Nadav Har\'El | Thursday, Feb 7 2002, 25 Shevat
                      > 5762
                      > nyh@...
                      > |-----------------------------------------
                      > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |The world is coming to an end ... SAVE
                      > http://nadav.harel.org.il |YOUR BUFFERS!!!
                      >
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                      >




                      Arik Baratz
                      System Engineer
                      arikb@...

                      Office:
                      4 Hamelacha St.
                      Raa’nana 43661
                      ISRAEL

                      Tel: +972 (9) 743-9250 ext. 214
                      Fax: +972 (9) 743-9251
                      Cell: +972 (52) 354 959
                      eFax: +1 (978) 926-8913
                      ICQ: 210 8214

                      Privileged and / or confidential Information may be contained in this electronic
                      mail message.

                      You may not copy or deliver this message to anyone without my consent.

                      If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or you feel that this
                      message is not intended for you, Please destroy this message and kindly notify
                      the sender by replying to this electronic mail.

                      Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not agree to the use of
                      Internet email for messages of this kind.

                      Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate
                      to the official business of Vidius shall be understood as neither given nor
                      endorsed by it.
                    • Nadav Har'El
                      ... Wow, something is *REALLY* wrong with your mail program, Vidius filter, or whatever... A part of the the subject got hacked off into the main text (as you
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Thu, Feb 07, 2002, Arik Baratz wrote about "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re: [hackers-il] Re: To Hash or not to Hash [was Re: \\\"On Lisp\\\" now av=":
                        > ailable ]?=
                        > MIME-Version: 1.0
                        > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

                        Wow, something is *REALLY* wrong with your mail program, Vidius filter,
                        or whatever... A part of the the subject got hacked off into the main
                        text (as you can see in the quote above),

                        > > > want a lean and mean function, you\\\'d have to analyze the domain you are
                        > working
                        > > > with and think up a function that hashes it ok.
                        > > That was the case with Freecell Solver, where I recently switched from MD5
                        > > to Perl\'s hash function and did not notice too big a difference in the

                        and something caused all single quotes in your message (even its subject line)
                        to be backslashed, sometimes by more than one backslash. What is this - a
                        mailer written in a shell? :)

                        Weird ;)


                        --
                        Nadav Har'El | Thursday, Feb 7 2002, 26 Shevat 5762
                        nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                        Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I before E except after C. We live in a
                        http://nadav.harel.org.il |weird society!
                      • Arik Baratz
                        On Lisp now av=3D?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 ... [hackers-il] Re: To Hash or not to Hash [was Re:
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          \\\\\\"On Lisp\\\\\\\" now av=3D?=
                          MIME-Version: 1.0
                          Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

                          On 07.02.2002 at 21:18:58, Nadav Har\'El <nyh@...> wrote:

                          > On Thu, Feb 07, 2002, Arik Baratz wrote about \"=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:
                          [hackers-il] Re: To Hash or not to Hash [was Re: \\\\\\\"On Lisp\\\\\\\" now
                          av=\":
                          > > ailable ]?=
                          > > MIME-Version: 1.0
                          > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
                          >
                          > Wow, something is *REALLY* wrong with your mail program, Vidius filter,
                          > or whatever... A part of the the subject got hacked off into the main
                          > text (as you can see in the quote above),

                          I\'m in the united states right now, and I\'m using JawMail
                          http://jawmail.sf.net beta version. It has some flaws, I admit.
                          >
                          > > > > want a lean and mean function, you\\\\\\\'d have to analyze the domain
                          you are
                          > > working
                          > > > > with and think up a function that hashes it ok.
                          > > > That was the case with Freecell Solver, where I recently switched from
                          MD5
                          > > > to Perl\\\'s hash function and did not notice too big a difference in
                          the
                          >
                          > and something caused all single quotes in your message (even its subject
                          line)
                          > to be backslashed, sometimes by more than one backslash. What is this - a
                          > mailer written in a shell? :)
                          >
                          > Weird ;)

                          Not in shell, in PHP. It\'s somewhat buggy, but it works...


                          Arik Baratz
                          System Engineer
                          arikb@...

                          Office:
                          4 Hamelacha St.
                          Raa’nana 43661
                          ISRAEL

                          Tel: +972 (9) 743-9250 ext. 214
                          Fax: +972 (9) 743-9251
                          Cell: +972 (52) 354 959
                          eFax: +1 (978) 926-8913
                          ICQ: 210 8214

                          Privileged and / or confidential Information may be contained in this electronic
                          mail message.

                          You may not copy or deliver this message to anyone without my consent.

                          If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or you feel that this
                          message is not intended for you, Please destroy this message and kindly notify
                          the sender by replying to this electronic mail.

                          Please advise immediately if you or your employer do not agree to the use of
                          Internet email for messages of this kind.

                          Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate
                          to the official business of Vidius shall be understood as neither given nor
                          endorsed by it.
                        • mulix
                          ... [snipped other such monstrosities, and then arik said] ... egads, whatever happened to good ol telnet my.mail.server.com 25 and talking SMTP like
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 7, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Arik Baratz wrote:

                            > \\\\\\"On Lisp\\\\\\\" now av=3D?=
                            > MIME-Version: 1.0
                            > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

                            [snipped other such monstrosities, and then arik said]
                            > Not in shell, in PHP. It\'s somewhat buggy, but it works...

                            egads, whatever happened to good ol' telnet my.mail.server.com 25 and
                            talking SMTP like reasonable human beings?

                            ObHackersIL - nothing. things have certainly hit a low point.
                            --
                            mulix

                            http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/
                            http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
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