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Re: [hackers-il] The Rules of Open-Source Programming

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  • Omer Zak
    Good idea! ... * Don t bother with creation of test cases and test scripts. Your users are your best and your only testers. * Release early and often. Clean
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 9, 2001
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      Good idea!

      On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

      > I came up with an idea of writing a list of rules of Open-Source
      > Programming. Note that I do not intend them to be something like the
      > Newton's _Three_ Laws of Motion or the Three Laws of Thermodynamics.
      > Rather, I want it to be something like the Ferengi Rules of Aquisition (
      > http://www.psiphi.org/DS9/rules.html ) which is a long and entertaining
      > list of 200 or so rules.

      * Don't bother with creation of test cases and test scripts. Your users
      are your best and your only testers.

      * Release early and often. Clean compilation is optional.

      --- Omer
      There is no IGLU Cabal. It is impossible to start one without violating
      at least 83% of Shlomi's Rules of Open Source Programming.
      WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
    • Shlomi Fish
      All in all it was quite a rude post, but I think I can extract a few gems out of this. ... How about The user is always right unless proved wrong? ... I
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 9, 2001
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        All in all it was quite a rude post, but I think I can extract a few gems
        out of this.

        On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, mulix wrote:

        > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
        >
        > > * A project is never finished.
        >
        > that's true in the real world too. no piece of software is ever
        > finished.
        >
        > > * The user is always right.
        >
        > ???!?!?!

        How about "The user is always right unless proved wrong?"

        > on a completely related tangent, there's an israeli a.s.r meeting
        > organizing. if you dont know what a.s.r means, never mind. if you do and
        > you want to attend, write me - in private.
        >
        > > * Give me refactoring or give me death!
        >
        > why? what if it works correctly the first time? or the nth time?
        >
        > > * Always pass NULL for complex options structures, you have nothing
        > > better to put in.
        > >
        > > * Never pass NULL for complex options structures, you have nothing
        > > better to put in.
        > >
        > > (I'm not so sure about the last two, because they are relevant to
        > > programming in general).
        > >
        > > So, please make your own suggestions.
        >
        > code talks, bullsh*t walks
        >

        I understand what you meant to say here. However, I would paraphrase it if
        I were you.

        > put your code where your mouth is
        >

        That's a variation on your first suggestion. Which is less rude.

        > this code is so bad it's not even funny
        >

        That may be true for some open-source projects, but not for all. It's also
        true for some real-world projects, but again not for all (at least I hope
        that not for all).

        > bsd people are on crack (sorry, nadav, got carried away here ;))
        >

        Skipped. BSD people are open-source hackers as much as Linux hackers are.

        > if you like it, let the author know. if you hate it, let the author know
        > why.
        >

        A very good one, added to the collection.

        > just because the code is open does not mean it isn't a festering pile of
        > crap.
        >

        Please paraphrase:

        How about "Open-source is not a panacea. Especially not for the one who
        needs to code the wretched thing."

        > open source is always better than closed source
        >

        I don't think it's very funny. Whether it's true or not is something that
        I have serious doubts about.

        > closing the source for "security" is like f*cking for virginity
        >

        1. It's badly phrased.
        2. No-one on his right mind will believe that "security by obscurity"
        works.
        3. We are talking here about the Open-Source rules. We assume that
        properietary software is Shavess (or should I say ChaVeSs).

        > i could probably come up with more, but i better stop here.
        >

        Next time, please think a little before you write.

        Anyway I have a couple more, which I forgot but I'll post later once I
        recall them.

        > mulix, who's studiously avoiding the 'technion sucks. does not. does
        > too' thread because his mail on the subject might cause an MTA or three
        > to blush.

        Actually, my intention for the Image Processing - End of Story thread was
        not to start such a thread (although it was probably inevitable). It was
        mainly done to keep the list posted with the "happy" resolution of the
        subject.

        Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

        > --
        > mulix
        >
        > http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
        > http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        >



        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
        Home E-mail: shlomif@...

        If:
        1. A is A
        2. A is not not-A
        does it imply that
        1. B is B
        2. B is not not-B
      • Shlomi Fish
        ... I don t necessary agree here. How about : * You are your best tester. * Your users are your second best testers. * Your test cases and test scripts are
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 9, 2001
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          On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Omer Zak wrote:

          > Good idea!
          >
          > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
          >
          > > I came up with an idea of writing a list of rules of Open-Source
          > > Programming. Note that I do not intend them to be something like the
          > > Newton's _Three_ Laws of Motion or the Three Laws of Thermodynamics.
          > > Rather, I want it to be something like the Ferengi Rules of Aquisition (
          > > http://www.psiphi.org/DS9/rules.html ) which is a long and entertaining
          > > list of 200 or so rules.
          >
          > * Don't bother with creation of test cases and test scripts. Your users
          > are your best and your only testers.
          >

          I don't necessary agree here. How about :

          * You are your best tester.

          * Your users are your second best testers.

          * Your test cases and test scripts are your worst testers.

          > * Release early and often. Clean compilation is optional.
          >

          Added. But how about s/Release early and often/Release early, release
          often./

          I have one:

          * Backward compatibility is your best friend.

          * Backward compatibility is your worst enemy.

          Regards,

          Shlomi Fish

          > --- Omer
          > There is no IGLU Cabal. It is impossible to start one without violating
          > at least 83% of Shlomi's Rules of Open Source Programming.
          > WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >



          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
          Home E-mail: shlomif@...

          If:
          1. A is A
          2. A is not not-A
          does it imply that
          1. B is B
          2. B is not not-B
        • mulix
          ... what can i say, i m in a rude kind of mood. ... the user is never right, shlomi, unless it s by accident. if you believe the user is always right, how
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 9, 2001
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            On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

            > All in all it was quite a rude post, but I think I can extract a few gems
            > out of this.

            what can i say, i'm in a rude kind of mood.

            > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, mulix wrote:
            >
            > > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
            > >
            > > > * A project is never finished.
            > >
            > > that's true in the real world too. no piece of software is ever
            > > finished.
            > >
            > > > * The user is always right.
            > >
            > > ???!?!?!
            >
            > How about "The user is always right unless proved wrong?"

            the user is never right, shlomi, unless it's by accident. if you believe
            the user is always right, how about this nice little bridge i have here
            for sale?

            > > code talks, bullsh*t walks
            >
            > I understand what you meant to say here. However, I would paraphrase it if
            > I were you.
            >
            > > put your code where your mouth is
            > >
            >
            > That's a variation on your first suggestion. Which is less rude.

            i am referring, in case it wasn't clear, to the myriad of (l)users who
            complain, whine and otherwise annoy the author of the code, without
            actually doing something to help.

            > > this code is so bad it's not even funny
            >
            > That may be true for some open-source projects, but not for all. It's also
            > true for some real-world projects, but again not for all (at least I hope
            > that not for all).

            god forbid. i wasn't talking about all open source projects, i was
            talking about software in general! most code you see, whether open
            source or not, sucks.

            nevermind, feel free to ignore anything i wrote. i was writing it tongue
            in cheek, and i guess i should have added little smilies, or emoticons,
            or a huge flag waving in the wind shouting "sarcasm here, beware!!!"

            > > bsd people are on crack (sorry, nadav, got carried away here ;))
            >
            > Skipped. BSD people are open-source hackers as much as Linux hackers are.

            check the archive for nadav's post on linus' opinion of bsd hackers.

            > > if you like it, let the author know. if you hate it, let the author know
            > > why.
            >
            > A very good one, added to the collection.

            why thank you. do i get royalties? no? well, no matter. just make sure
            it's gpl'd, and send the groupies up to my hotel room.

            > > just because the code is open does not mean it isn't a festering pile of
            > > crap.
            >
            > Please paraphrase:
            >
            > How about "Open-source is not a panacea. Especially not for the one who
            > needs to code the wretched thing."

            nope. that's not what it means.
            here's a little game. go to www.sf.net. pick a project in random.
            assuming it has released any code, look at it. rate it, on a 1 to 10
            scale.

            open source produced some great things. i'm writing this email using a
            completly open source system. that does not mean there aren't some open
            source projects whose code, how shall i put it? sucks.

            > > open source is always better than closed source
            >
            > I don't think it's very funny. Whether it's true or not is something that
            > I have serious doubts about.

            oh? explain please how closed source can be better, then?

            >
            > > closing the source for "security" is like f*cking for virginity
            >
            > 1. It's badly phrased.
            > 2. No-one on his right mind will believe that "security by obscurity"
            > works.

            hah! go read the semi annual flamefests on bugtrack, for and against
            full disclosure.

            > 3. We are talking here about the Open-Source rules. We assume that
            > properietary software is Shavess (or should I say ChaVeSs).
            >
            > > i could probably come up with more, but i better stop here.
            >
            > Next time, please think a little before you write.

            no. i think all day. occasionally, i like to just pound the keyboard and
            see what comes out.

            > Anyway I have a couple more, which I forgot but I'll post later once I
            > recall them.
            >
            > > mulix, who's studiously avoiding the 'technion sucks. does not. does
            > > too' thread because his mail on the subject might cause an MTA or three
            > > to blush.
            >
            > Actually, my intention for the Image Processing - End of Story thread was
            > not to start such a thread (although it was probably inevitable). It was
            > mainly done to keep the list posted with the "happy" resolution of the
            > subject.

            i'm glad it was resolved to your satisfaction.

            --
            mulix

            http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
            http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
          • Shlomi Fish
            First of all a note: I talked to Muli by cell-phone and he s OK. No need to be alarmed. ... That s too bad. I hope you ll feel better tomorrow. ... I don t
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 9, 2001
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              First of all a note: I talked to Muli by cell-phone and he's OK. No need
              to be alarmed.

              On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, mulix wrote:

              > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
              >
              > > All in all it was quite a rude post, but I think I can extract a few gems
              > > out of this.
              >
              > what can i say, i'm in a rude kind of mood.
              >

              That's too bad. I hope you'll feel better tomorrow.

              > > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, mulix wrote:
              > >
              > > > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > * A project is never finished.
              > > >
              > > > that's true in the real world too. no piece of software is ever
              > > > finished.
              > > >
              > > > > * The user is always right.
              > > >
              > > > ???!?!?!
              > >
              > > How about "The user is always right unless proved wrong?"
              >
              > the user is never right, shlomi, unless it's by accident. if you believe
              > the user is always right, how about this nice little bridge i have here
              > for sale?
              >

              I don't need a bridge at the moment. In any case, from my experience with
              Freecell Solver I believed that input from its users was a very positive
              factor (and that is an understatement). Earlier versions of Freecell
              Solver could segfault when given improper command-line arguments. Some
              input I received from Dr. Tom Holroyd made me implement a more robust
              command line handling. Now, if it segfaults, I know that something is
              wrong.

              > > > code talks, bullsh*t walks
              > >
              > > I understand what you meant to say here. However, I would paraphrase it if
              > > I were you.
              > >
              > > > put your code where your mouth is
              > > >
              > >
              > > That's a variation on your first suggestion. Which is less rude.
              >
              > i am referring, in case it wasn't clear, to the myriad of (l)users who
              > complain, whine and otherwise annoy the author of the code, without
              > actually doing something to help.
              >

              I think my "Don't complain unless you are going to implement it yourself."
              is a funnier (and definitely less rude) variation of it.

              > > > this code is so bad it's not even funny
              > >
              > > That may be true for some open-source projects, but not for all. It's also
              > > true for some real-world projects, but again not for all (at least I hope
              > > that not for all).
              >
              > god forbid. i wasn't talking about all open source projects, i was
              > talking about software in general! most code you see, whether open
              > source or not, sucks.
              >

              I could not agree with you more, with as little experience I had with
              other people's code. However, some people know how to program well and
              that's a fact. But even the best programmers don't write the best code
              possible for the first release of a project.

              > nevermind, feel free to ignore anything i wrote. i was writing it tongue
              > in cheek, and i guess i should have added little smilies, or emoticons,
              > or a huge flag waving in the wind shouting "sarcasm here, beware!!!"
              >

              I think you should calm yourself down a little.

              > > > bsd people are on crack (sorry, nadav, got carried away here ;))
              > >
              > > Skipped. BSD people are open-source hackers as much as Linux hackers are.
              >
              > check the archive for nadav's post on linus' opinion of bsd hackers.
              >

              I know that. I realize it was a joke. But sometimes my "instinct" tells me
              to take jokes too seriously.

              > > > if you like it, let the author know. if you hate it, let the author know
              > > > why.
              > >
              > > A very good one, added to the collection.
              >
              > why thank you. do i get royalties? no? well, no matter. just make sure
              > it's gpl'd, and send the groupies up to my hotel room.
              >

              If and when we sell the book "The Rules of Open-Source Programming - The
              Book", I promise you will receive at least 10% of the profits.

              I'd rethink licensing it under the GPL if I were you, because that may
              require to make the entire fortune collection GPL too. How about the FDL
              or the Open Publication License?

              > > > just because the code is open does not mean it isn't a festering pile of
              > > > crap.
              > >
              > > Please paraphrase:
              > >
              > > How about "Open-source is not a panacea. Especially not for the one who
              > > needs to code the wretched thing."
              >
              > nope. that's not what it means.
              > here's a little game. go to www.sf.net. pick a project in random.
              > assuming it has released any code, look at it. rate it, on a 1 to 10
              > scale.
              >
              > open source produced some great things. i'm writing this email using a
              > completly open source system. that does not mean there aren't some open
              > source projects whose code, how shall i put it? sucks.
              >

              In that case how about "Open code != Well Written Code" ?

              > > > open source is always better than closed source
              > >
              > > I don't think it's very funny. Whether it's true or not is something that
              > > I have serious doubts about.
              >
              > oh? explain please how closed source can be better, then?
              >

              No comment.

              > >
              > > > closing the source for "security" is like f*cking for virginity
              > >
              > > 1. It's badly phrased.
              > > 2. No-one on his right mind will believe that "security by obscurity"
              > > works.
              >
              > hah! go read the semi annual flamefests on bugtrack, for and against
              > full disclosure.
              >

              Whatever. Like I said, we assume that closed-source is not an option.

              > > 3. We are talking here about the Open-Source rules. We assume that
              > > properietary software is Shavess (or should I say ChaVeSs).
              > >
              > > > i could probably come up with more, but i better stop here.
              > >
              > > Next time, please think a little before you write.
              >
              > no. i think all day. occasionally, i like to just pound the keyboard and
              > see what comes out.
              >
              > > Anyway I have a couple more, which I forgot but I'll post later once I
              > > recall them.
              > >
              > > > mulix, who's studiously avoiding the 'technion sucks. does not. does
              > > > too' thread because his mail on the subject might cause an MTA or three
              > > > to blush.
              > >
              > > Actually, my intention for the Image Processing - End of Story thread was
              > > not to start such a thread (although it was probably inevitable). It was
              > > mainly done to keep the list posted with the "happy" resolution of the
              > > subject.
              >
              > i'm glad it was resolved to your satisfaction.
              >

              Albeit not a complete one...

              In any case: did I mention the following rule:

              * A project may seem dead, but there's always a small chance that it is
              merely slumbering.

              Regards,

              Shlomi Fish

              > --
              > mulix
              >
              > http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
              > http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >



              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
              Home E-mail: shlomif@...

              If:
              1. A is A
              2. A is not not-A
              does it imply that
              1. B is B
              2. B is not not-B
            • Nadav Har'El
              ... I didn t understand most of the rules of open-source programming you wrote, or why you think they are relevant to open-source programming (rather than
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 9, 2001
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                On Sun, Dec 09, 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Re: The Rules of Open-Source Programming":
                > * Backward compatibility is your best friend.
                >
                > * Backward compatibility is your worst enemy.

                I didn't understand most of the "rules of open-source programming" you
                wrote, or why you think they are relevant to open-source programming (rather
                than any sort of programming), but this pair I don't understand at all...

                What sense is there in having two contradicting rules? Does it serve any
                purpose, except to instill some sense of nihilism into your list?

                Tertium non datur, I say!

                --
                Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Dec 9 2001, 25 Kislev 5762
                nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |And now for some feedback:
                http://nadav.harel.org.il |EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
              • Orna Shemesh
                ok, i dont know what a.s.r means, and i want to know. i know that option did not exist there. orna. ... From: mulix To: Hackers-IL
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                  ok, i dont know what a.s.r means, and i want to know. i know that option did
                  not exist there.
                  orna.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "mulix" <mulix@...>
                  To: "Hackers-IL" <hackers-il@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 9:55 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hackers-il] The Rules of Open-Source Programming


                  > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                  >
                  > > * A project is never finished.
                  >
                  > that's true in the real world too. no piece of software is ever
                  > finished.
                  >
                  > > * The user is always right.
                  >
                  > ???!?!?!
                  > on a completely related tangent, there's an israeli a.s.r meeting
                  > organizing. if you dont know what a.s.r means, never mind. if you do and
                  > you want to attend, write me - in private.
                  >
                  > > * Give me refactoring or give me death!
                  >
                  > why? what if it works correctly the first time? or the nth time?
                  >
                  > > * Always pass NULL for complex options structures, you have nothing
                  > > better to put in.
                  > >
                  > > * Never pass NULL for complex options structures, you have nothing
                  > > better to put in.
                  > >
                  > > (I'm not so sure about the last two, because they are relevant to
                  > > programming in general).
                  > >
                  > > So, please make your own suggestions.
                  >
                  > code talks, bullsh*t walks
                  >
                  > put your code where your mouth is
                  >
                  > this code is so bad it's not even funny
                  >
                  > bsd people are on crack (sorry, nadav, got carried away here ;))
                  >
                  > if you like it, let the author know. if you hate it, let the author know
                  > why.
                  >
                  > just because the code is open does not mean it isn't a festering pile of
                  > crap.
                  >
                  > open source is always better than closed source
                  >
                  > closing the source for "security" is like f*cking for virginity
                  >
                  > i could probably come up with more, but i better stop here.
                  >
                  > mulix, who's studiously avoiding the 'technion sucks. does not. does
                  > too' thread because his mail on the subject might cause an MTA or three
                  > to blush.
                  > --
                  > mulix
                  >
                  > http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
                  > http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Chen Shapira
                  My bet is alt.sysadmin.recovery
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                    My bet is
                    alt.sysadmin.recovery

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Gilad Ben-Yossef [mailto:gilad@...]
                    > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 3:06 PM
                    > To: hackers-il@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: [hackers-il] The Rules of Open-Source Programming
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > ok, i dont know what a.s.r means, and i want to know. i know that
                    > > option did
                    > > not exist there.
                    >
                    > Aquifer Storage and Recovery?
                    > American Society for Rickettsiology?
                    > Association for the Sociology of Religion?
                    > Association of Student Representatives?
                    > Architects for Social Responsibility?
                    > Auto Shredder Residue?
                    > Arrogant Seers of Rusia?
                    > Atom Soup Rastafarians?
                    > Authenticated Syrian Relics?
                    > Autonomous Syrup Reprogramers?
                    > Association of Suse Roaches?
                    > Armed Siberian Raiders?
                    > Agreeable Sophie Raccoons?
                    > Athletic Synchronous Rappers?
                    > Angry Socialist Rapists?
                    > Apolitical Surreal Reports?
                    > Aviation Surplus Renegades?
                    >
                    > OK. Mulix, I think you owe us an answer? ;-)
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Gilad Ben-Yossef <gby@...>
                    > Tel: +972(9)9717330 | Fax: +972(9)9717334 | Cel: +972(54)756701
                    > Kagoor Networks ltd | http://www.kagoor.com |
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > ---------------------~-->
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                    > -------~->
                    >
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                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                  • mulix
                    ... pbeerpg (no, this isn t line noise). -- mulix http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/ http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                      On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Chen Shapira wrote:

                      > My bet is
                      > alt.sysadmin.recovery

                      pbeerpg

                      (no, this isn't line noise).
                      --
                      mulix

                      http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
                      http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                    • Chen Shapira
                      ... jul, gunax lbh :-) But we don t believe in security through obscurity, do we? Chen.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                        > pbeerpg
                        >
                        > (no, this isn't line noise).

                        jul, gunax lbh :-)

                        But we don't believe in security through obscurity, do we?

                        Chen.
                      • Oleg Goldshmidt
                        ... Of course not. It s just a hint: the real meaning of a.s.r. is alt.security.rot13. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@NOSPAM.computer.org If it ain t
                        Message 11 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                          Chen Shapira <chen@...> writes:

                          > > pbeerpg
                          > >
                          > > (no, this isn't line noise).
                          >
                          > jul, gunax lbh :-)
                          >
                          > But we don't believe in security through obscurity, do we?

                          Of course not. It's just a hint: the real meaning of a.s.r. is
                          alt.security.rot13.

                          --
                          Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
                          "If it ain't broken, it has not got enough features yet."
                        • Gilad Ben-Yossef
                          ... Aquifer Storage and Recovery? American Society for Rickettsiology? Association for the Sociology of Religion? Association of Student Representatives?
                          Message 12 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                            > ok, i dont know what a.s.r means, and i want to know. i know that
                            > option did
                            > not exist there.

                            Aquifer Storage and Recovery?
                            American Society for Rickettsiology?
                            Association for the Sociology of Religion?
                            Association of Student Representatives?
                            Architects for Social Responsibility?
                            Auto Shredder Residue?
                            Arrogant Seers of Rusia?
                            Atom Soup Rastafarians?
                            Authenticated Syrian Relics?
                            Autonomous Syrup Reprogramers?
                            Association of Suse Roaches?
                            Armed Siberian Raiders?
                            Agreeable Sophie Raccoons?
                            Athletic Synchronous Rappers?
                            Angry Socialist Rapists?
                            Apolitical Surreal Reports?
                            Aviation Surplus Renegades?

                            OK. Mulix, I think you owe us an answer? ;-)


                            --
                            Gilad Ben-Yossef <gby@...>
                            Tel: +972(9)9717330 | Fax: +972(9)9717334 | Cel: +972(54)756701
                            Kagoor Networks ltd | http://www.kagoor.com |
                          • Shlomi Fish
                            ... I guess it means we will need to have a sub-project of commenting and interpreting the Rules of Open-Source Programming . ;-) Which reminds me of this
                            Message 13 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                              On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:

                              > On Sun, Dec 09, 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Re: The Rules of Open-Source Programming":
                              > > * Backward compatibility is your best friend.
                              > >
                              > > * Backward compatibility is your worst enemy.
                              >
                              > I didn't understand most of the "rules of open-source programming" you
                              > wrote, or why you think they are relevant to open-source programming (rather
                              > than any sort of programming), but this pair I don't understand at all...
                              >
                              > What sense is there in having two contradicting rules? Does it serve any
                              > purpose, except to instill some sense of nihilism into your list?
                              >

                              I guess it means we will need to have a sub-project of commenting and
                              interpreting the Rules of Open-Source Programming<tm>. ;-)

                              Which reminds me of this addition:

                              * Every successful project will eventually spawn a sub-project.

                              In any case, please refer to the original "Rules of Acquisition" (Googlize
                              it).

                              The original "Rules of Acquisition" contains two rules:

                              * War is good for business.

                              * Peace is good for business.

                              What I meant was that Backward Compatibility is a two-edged sword. You
                              can't live with it, but your users can't live without it.

                              Which we might paraphrase it into this rule:

                              * Backward Compatibility - you can't live with it, but your users can't
                              live without it.

                              > Tertium non datur, I say!
                              >

                              I'm not familiar with this particular latin phrase.

                              > --
                              > Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Dec 9 2001, 25 Kislev 5762
                              > nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                              > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |And now for some feedback:
                              > http://nadav.harel.org.il |EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >



                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                              Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                              If:
                              1. A is A
                              2. A is not not-A
                              does it imply that
                              1. B is B
                              2. B is not not-B
                            • Shlomi Fish
                              ... How about : * Backward Compatibility is the developer s worst enemy. * Backward Compatibility is the users best friend. Now that s not a
                              Message 14 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

                                > What I meant was that Backward Compatibility is a two-edged sword. You
                                > can't live with it, but your users can't live without it.
                                >
                                > Which we might paraphrase it into this rule:
                                >
                                > * Backward Compatibility - you can't live with it, but your users can't
                                > live without it.
                                >

                                How about :

                                * Backward Compatibility is the developer's worst enemy.

                                * Backward Compatibility is the users' best friend.

                                Now that's not a self-contradictory identification, is it?

                                Regards,

                                Shlomi Fish

                                There is no IGLU Cabal! The new cabal could not maintain backward
                                compatibility with the old one, and as a result the user's switched
                                to "The Old IGLU Cabal - The Next Generation"<tm> which did maintain
                                backward compatibility.

                                > > Tertium non datur, I say!
                                > >
                                >
                                > I'm not familiar with this particular latin phrase.
                                >
                                > > --
                                > > Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Dec 9 2001, 25 Kislev 5762
                                > > nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                                > > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |And now for some feedback:
                                > > http://nadav.harel.org.il |EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                > Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                                > Home E-mail: shlomif@...
                                >
                                > If:
                                > 1. A is A
                                > 2. A is not not-A
                                > does it imply that
                                > 1. B is B
                                > 2. B is not not-B
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >



                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                                Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                                "Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups..."
                                "Wait a second - is n a natural number?"
                              • Alon Altman
                                ... Hmm... this explains the sh*tty economic situation we are in. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman (Psycho99@bigfoot.com) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way
                                Message 15 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                  On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

                                  > The original "Rules of Acquisition" contains two rules:
                                  >
                                  > * War is good for business.
                                  >
                                  > * Peace is good for business.
                                  >

                                  Hmm... this explains the sh*tty economic situation we are in.

                                  Alon

                                  --
                                  This message was sent by Alon Altman (Psycho99@...) ICQ:1366540
                                  The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :)
                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  MMM-MM!! So THIS is BIO-NEBULATION!
                                • Oleg Goldshmidt
                                  ... I recall the phrase Backwards compatibility is compatibility done backwards , but I don t recall either the context or the attribution... -- Oleg
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                    Shlomi Fish <shlomif@...> writes:

                                    > * Backward Compatibility is the developer's worst enemy.
                                    >
                                    > * Backward Compatibility is the users' best friend.

                                    I recall the phrase "Backwards compatibility is compatibility done
                                    backwards", but I don't recall either the context or the
                                    attribution...

                                    --
                                    Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
                                    "If it ain't broken, it has not got enough features yet."
                                  • mulix
                                    ... does this mean you ll come to the meeting? twill be nice to meet you if you do, i ve heard quite a lot about you. -- mulix
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                      On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Chen Shapira wrote:

                                      > jul, gunax lbh :-)

                                      does this mean you'll come to the meeting? 'twill be nice to meet you
                                      if you do, i've heard quite a lot about you.
                                      --
                                      mulix

                                      http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
                                      http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                                    • mulix
                                      ... apologies to the list, this was meant to go to chen in private. i got by the reply-to header, which indeed should be considered harmful, but reply to
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                        On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, mulix wrote:

                                        > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Chen Shapira wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > jul, gunax lbh :-)
                                        >
                                        > does this mean you'll come to the meeting? 'twill be nice to meet you
                                        > if you do, i've heard quite a lot about you.

                                        apologies to the list, this was meant to go to chen in private.
                                        i got by the 'reply-to' header, which indeed should be considered
                                        harmful, but 'reply to all' tripped me. oh well.

                                        --
                                        mulix

                                        http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
                                        http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                                      • Nadav Har'El
                                        ... Well, my Latin really sucks, but I think it literally means the third [is] not given . It is an axiom of logics that said that something must be either
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                          On Mon, Dec 10, 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Re: Re: The Rules of Open-Source Programming":
                                          > > Tertium non datur, I say!
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > I'm not familiar with this particular latin phrase.

                                          Well, my Latin really sucks, but I think it literally means "the third [is]
                                          not given". It is an axiom of logics that said that something must be either
                                          true or false - it can't be some "third option". You can't have some statement
                                          being both not true and not false.
                                          I think in Hebrew it is usually translated as "hashlishi nimna".

                                          Anyway, I just meant that you can't just start axioms ("rules") that
                                          contradict themselves. Maybe this phrase isn't all that relevant to this
                                          situation after all... Never mind...

                                          --
                                          Nadav Har'El | Tuesday, Dec 11 2001, 26 Kislev 5762
                                          nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                                          Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |It is better to be thought a fool, then
                                          http://nadav.harel.org.il |to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
                                        • Alon Altman
                                          ... What meeting? -- This message was sent by Alon Altman (Psycho99@bigfoot.com) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Dec 10, 2001
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                                            On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, mulix wrote:

                                            > On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Chen Shapira wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > jul, gunax lbh :-)
                                            >
                                            > does this mean you'll come to the meeting? 'twill be nice to meet you
                                            > if you do, i've heard quite a lot about you.
                                            >

                                            What meeting?

                                            --
                                            This message was sent by Alon Altman (Psycho99@...) ICQ:1366540
                                            The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :)
                                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            2180, U.S. History question:
                                            What 20th Century U.S. President was almost impeached and what
                                            office did he later hold?
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