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Re: Is Open-Content and/or Collaborative Written Art OT on Freshmeat?

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  • Shlomi Fish
    ... I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback, suggestions, and
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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      On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:

      > shut up and show them the code, in other words.

      I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
      humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
      suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
      announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
      people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

      This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
      Freecell Solver. Anyway, this should be the next ThinkGeek slogan:

      Show me the code!!!

      (in reference to Jerry Maguire, a most excellent film)

      Bye for now,

      Shlomi Fish

      There is no IGLU Cabal!
      All the cabal members became frustrated from people not noticing what they
      do, so they neglected the maintainance of the IGLU activities.

      BTW, I'd like to borrow the expression "There is no IGLU Cabal!"
      for "Humanity" discussions. My interpretation of its meaning is "Is
      not, Never happened, and never will happen". Sort of like "Lo Hayu Dvarim
      Me'olam" or "Lo Dobim Ve'Lo Ya'ar" in Hebrew.

      OmerZ, being the Chief Self-Contradicting Identification Officer of IGLU
      and Hackers-IL, do you approve of this meaning?

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
      Home E-mail: shlomif@...

      If:
      1. A is A
      2. A is not not-A
      does it imply that
      1. B is B
      2. B is not not-B
    • Tzafrir Cohen
      ... Shlomi, consider yourself as someone who wants to promot some political agenda. It is important to you, although you may not have a direct benefit from
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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        On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

        > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:
        >
        > > shut up and show them the code, in other words.
        >
        > I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
        > humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
        > suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
        > announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
        > people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

        Shlomi, consider yourself as someone who wants to promot some political
        agenda. It is important to you, although you may not have a direct benefit
        from that. You try to make others accept your views of the matter.

        Consider a couple of things:

        * most people that will visit the site will not want to contribute (most
        hits are not sells)
        * You should not over-promote your project, e.g.: by spamming and by
        creating un-necessary announcements. People learn to filter-out such
        announcements.

        >
        > This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
        > Freecell Solver. Anyway, this should be the next ThinkGeek slogan:
        >

        What is your point here? That some software projects are not interesting
        to enough people?
        I could be selfish and ask you to contribute to r2l, but I know that you
        have better things to do in your spare time (freecell-solver, humanity,
        just to mention some computer-related ones)

        --
        Tzafrir Cohen
        mailto:tzafrir@...
        http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
      • Nadav Har'El
        ... Regardless of how interesting or commendable your effort is, I also agree that Freshmeat isn t exactly the natural home for such announcements... From
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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          On Sun, Oct 28, 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Is Open-Content and/or Collaborative Written Art OT on Freshmeat?":
          >
          > Refer to:
          >
          > http://freshmeat.net/projects/humanity/
          >
          > (once it is back on-line)
          >
          > Basically, a certain bloke there said that FM was not the right place for
          > "this kind of ****". I answered that I think it is because:

          Regardless of how interesting or commendable your effort is, I also agree
          that Freshmeat isn't exactly the natural home for such announcements...

          From Freshmeat's "About":

          "freshmeat maintains the Web's largest index of Unix and cross-platform
          open source software. ... Each entry provides a description of the
          software, links to download it and to obtain more information ....
          The first stop for Linux users hunting for the software they need for
          work or play ...
          In addition to providing news on new releases, freshmeat offers a
          variety of original content on technical, political, and social
          aspects of software and programming ..."

          The way I read this is that "projects" on freshmeat must be open source
          *software* (a movie isn't software, I think you'd agree), but "articles"
          can be anything vaguely related to software, open source ideas, and even
          ideas more remotely connected to those (so your movie would fit this, if
          it were an article...).

          Another "proof" that freshmeat projects were meant to be software, not
          movie scripts: Take a look at the subject tree ("Browse"). You'll find
          there categrories like "Communications", "Games/Entertainment", "Text
          Editors", and so on - not things like "Movies", "Books", "Manifestos", and
          so on.

          But all that being said - if you got your project listed on Freshmeat without
          them objecting, enjoy it and use it :) Good luck!

          --
          Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Oct 28 2001, 11 Heshvan 5762
          nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
          Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |How long a minute depends on what side of
          http://nadav.harel.org.il |the bathroom door you're on.
        • Omer Zak
          ... I disclaim any copyright or trademark claims of the above phrase. I am not the original author of the phrase (Moshe Zadka IIRC). However, in order to
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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            On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

            > BTW, I'd like to borrow the expression "There is no IGLU Cabal!"
            > for "Humanity" discussions. My interpretation of its meaning is "Is
            > not, Never happened, and never will happen". Sort of like "Lo Hayu Dvarim
            > Me'olam" or "Lo Dobim Ve'Lo Ya'ar" in Hebrew.
            >
            > OmerZ, being the Chief Self-Contradicting Identification Officer of IGLU
            > and Hackers-IL, do you approve of this meaning?

            I disclaim any copyright or trademark claims of the above phrase.
            I am not the original author of the phrase (Moshe Zadka IIRC).

            However, in order to reduce the equivalent of "trademark dilution", can
            you choose another name for an organization which is not supposed to
            exist, never existed, will never exist, but there are all kinds of
            unexplained traces of its existence?

            If not, go ahead with the IGLU Cabal.
            --- Omer
            There is no IGLU Cabal. The organization had to change its name due to an
            ugly and silly trademark dilution dispute. The new name is kept secret to
            prevent further trademark disputes.
            WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
          • Shlomi Fish
            ... The problem is that there are also fortune collections, documents and other stuff that are only partially related to software. So I don t think it doesn t
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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              On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:

              > On Sun, Oct 28, 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Is Open-Content and/or Collaborative Written Art OT on Freshmeat?":
              > >
              > > Refer to:
              > >
              > > http://freshmeat.net/projects/humanity/
              > >
              > > (once it is back on-line)
              > >
              > > Basically, a certain bloke there said that FM was not the right place for
              > > "this kind of ****". I answered that I think it is because:
              >
              > Regardless of how interesting or commendable your effort is, I also agree
              > that Freshmeat isn't exactly the natural home for such announcements...
              >
              > [snipped...]

              The problem is that there are also fortune collections, documents and
              other stuff that are only partially related to software. So I don't think
              it doesn't belong there. Of course, if my way of doing things<tm> becomes
              commonplace, it would probably be a better idea to start a separate
              forum/bill board for that.

              But what the hell - who is John Galt?

              > But all that being said - if you got your project listed on Freshmeat without
              > them objecting, enjoy it and use it :) Good luck!
              >

              Thanks!

              > --
              > Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Oct 28 2001, 11 Heshvan 5762
              > nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
              > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |How long a minute depends on what side of
              > http://nadav.harel.org.il |the bathroom door you're on.
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >



              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
              Home E-mail: shlomif@...

              If:
              1. A is A
              2. A is not not-A
              does it imply that
              1. B is B
              2. B is not not-B
            • mulix
              ... no necessarily, people learn fairly quickly to filter out noise. post once a week/month - it s usefull. post once a day - it s noise. ... i think that
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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                On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

                > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:
                >
                > > shut up and show them the code, in other words.
                >
                > I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
                > humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
                > suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
                > announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
                > people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

                no necessarily, people learn fairly quickly to filter out noise. post
                once a week/month - it's usefull. post once a day - it's noise.

                > This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
                > Freecell Solver.

                i think that contrary to what many people might think, most "bazaar
                style" projects have a small core group of people that do most of the
                work. i seem to recall reading something by alan cox to that effect,
                too.

                can you think of any big software project where many (let's say, more
                than 10?) people work on te *same* pieces of code, regularly?

                --
                mulix

                http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
                http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
              • Shlomi Fish
                ... I realize this fact. ... I m trying to promote the project for a one time thing at its announcement. ... I don t have a point, I was just casually
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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                  On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

                  > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                  >
                  > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > shut up and show them the code, in other words.
                  > >
                  > > I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
                  > > humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
                  > > suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
                  > > announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
                  > > people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.
                  >
                  > Shlomi, consider yourself as someone who wants to promot some political
                  > agenda. It is important to you, although you may not have a direct benefit
                  > from that. You try to make others accept your views of the matter.
                  >
                  > Consider a couple of things:
                  >
                  > * most people that will visit the site will not want to contribute (most
                  > hits are not sells)

                  I realize this fact.

                  > * You should not over-promote your project, e.g.: by spamming and by
                  > creating un-necessary announcements. People learn to filter-out such
                  > announcements.
                  >

                  I'm trying to promote the project for a one time thing at its
                  announcement.

                  > >
                  > > This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
                  > > Freecell Solver. Anyway, this should be the next ThinkGeek slogan:
                  > >
                  >
                  > What is your point here? That some software projects are not interesting
                  > to enough people?

                  I don't have a point, I was just casually mentioning a fact. It takes
                  a project some time to accumulate developers and that's all there is to
                  it.

                  Regards,

                  Shlomi Fish

                  > I could be selfish and ask you to contribute to r2l, but I know that you
                  > have better things to do in your spare time (freecell-solver, humanity,
                  > just to mention some computer-related ones)
                  >
                  > --
                  > Tzafrir Cohen
                  > mailto:tzafrir@...
                  > http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >



                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                  Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                  Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                  If:
                  1. A is A
                  2. A is not not-A
                  does it imply that
                  1. B is B
                  2. B is not not-B
                • Shlomi Fish
                  ... Of course I m not going to post every little change. But I m going to post enough for people to get the hang of the major changes. ... Well, parrot (the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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                    On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:

                    > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                    >
                    > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > shut up and show them the code, in other words.
                    > >
                    > > I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
                    > > humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
                    > > suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
                    > > announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
                    > > people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.
                    >
                    > no necessarily, people learn fairly quickly to filter out noise. post
                    > once a week/month - it's usefull. post once a day - it's noise.
                    >

                    Of course I'm not going to post every little change. But I'm going to post
                    enough for people to get the hang of the major changes.

                    > > This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
                    > > Freecell Solver.
                    >
                    > i think that contrary to what many people might think, most "bazaar
                    > style" projects have a small core group of people that do most of the
                    > work. i seem to recall reading something by alan cox to that effect,
                    > too.
                    >
                    > can you think of any big software project where many (let's say, more
                    > than 10?) people work on te *same* pieces of code, regularly?
                    >

                    Well, parrot (the perl6 bytecode interpreter) seems to be such a case. And
                    also the Linux Kernel. But naturally, they are relatively exceptional
                    cases.

                    In any case, the "bazaar" way of doing things has some properties, besides
                    the fact that "many" people co-operate on the code.

                    Regards,

                    Shlomi Fish

                    > --
                    > mulix
                    >
                    > http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
                    > http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >



                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                    Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                    Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                    If:
                    1. A is A
                    2. A is not not-A
                    does it imply that
                    1. B is B
                    2. B is not not-B
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