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Is Open-Content and/or Collaborative Written Art OT on Freshmeat?

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  • Shlomi Fish
    Refer to: http://freshmeat.net/projects/humanity/ (once it is back on-line) Basically, a certain bloke there said that FM was not the right place for this
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 27, 2001
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      Refer to:

      http://freshmeat.net/projects/humanity/

      (once it is back on-line)

      Basically, a certain bloke there said that FM was not the right place for
      "this kind of ****". I answered that I think it is because:

      1. It is a collaborative project.

      2. It is open-content.

      3. It can be viewed just fine on Linux.

      Somebody else replied to my reply and said that for those reasons and more
      it sounded like a fantastic idea and he wishes me the best of luck.

      The project was successfully launched at BerliOS, but so far there are
      only 4 members in humanity-discuss and 1 of them is me. I know projects
      need to grow, and it is weekend in Europe and the States, but I am hoping
      for more input from other people.

      Do you think I should forward the announcement to Linus Torvalds, ESR and
      RMS? I have a feeling that they would totally dig the idea. I already sent
      it to letters@....

      Regards,

      Shlomi Fish





      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
      Home E-mail: shlomif@...

      If:
      1. A is A
      2. A is not not-A
      does it imply that
      1. B is B
      2. B is not not-B
    • mulix
      ... a subject close to my heart... syscalltrack-hackers, the main syscalltrack mailing list, has only 8 or so memberes, the majority of whom are lurkers. most
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 27, 2001
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        On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

        > The project was successfully launched at BerliOS, but so far there are
        > only 4 members in humanity-discuss and 1 of them is me. I know projects
        > need to grow, and it is weekend in Europe and the States, but I am hoping
        > for more input from other people.

        a subject close to my heart...

        syscalltrack-hackers, the main syscalltrack mailing list, has only 8 or
        so memberes, the majority of whom are lurkers. most of the discussion
        takes place between guy and myself. and this in spite of ~600 downloads
        and ~4500 page views until now - you would think at least *some* of
        these people would be interested in contributing.

        so, i ask myself occasionally, what can i, as one of the project leaders
        do to promote interest in syscalltrack? after thinking long and hard, i
        reach the inevitable conclusion - pretty much nothing.

        because no matter what 'marketing' tricks one resorts to, and who one
        mails, the project will stand, or fall, on the code and its usefullness
        to people. if it's good, people will hear about it. if not, well, no
        ammount of marketing will do.

        so my advice to you, shlomi, is to forget 'promoting' for the time
        being, and concentrate on the code, or in this case, the script.

        > Do you think I should forward the announcement to Linus Torvalds,
        > ESR and RMS? I have a feeling that they would totally dig the idea.
        > I already sent it to letters@....

        no. they (and their mailboxes) deserve some peace, imho.

        btw, what i wrote above should not be construed as saying that i
        completely abandoned marketing efforts: i still try to promote
        syscalltrack and get people interested in working on it. i just try to
        be creative about it (organizing a syscalltrack hacking session at the
        upcoming linux day, giving a syscalltrack lecture in december in haifux)
        and never forget that code speaks best, and my time is best spent
        hacking, not talking.

        shut up and show them the code, in other words.
        --
        mulix

        http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
        http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
      • Shlomi Fish
        ... I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback, suggestions, and
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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          On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:

          > shut up and show them the code, in other words.

          I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
          humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
          suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
          announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
          people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

          This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
          Freecell Solver. Anyway, this should be the next ThinkGeek slogan:

          Show me the code!!!

          (in reference to Jerry Maguire, a most excellent film)

          Bye for now,

          Shlomi Fish

          There is no IGLU Cabal!
          All the cabal members became frustrated from people not noticing what they
          do, so they neglected the maintainance of the IGLU activities.

          BTW, I'd like to borrow the expression "There is no IGLU Cabal!"
          for "Humanity" discussions. My interpretation of its meaning is "Is
          not, Never happened, and never will happen". Sort of like "Lo Hayu Dvarim
          Me'olam" or "Lo Dobim Ve'Lo Ya'ar" in Hebrew.

          OmerZ, being the Chief Self-Contradicting Identification Officer of IGLU
          and Hackers-IL, do you approve of this meaning?

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
          Home E-mail: shlomif@...

          If:
          1. A is A
          2. A is not not-A
          does it imply that
          1. B is B
          2. B is not not-B
        • Tzafrir Cohen
          ... Shlomi, consider yourself as someone who wants to promot some political agenda. It is important to you, although you may not have a direct benefit from
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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            On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

            > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:
            >
            > > shut up and show them the code, in other words.
            >
            > I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
            > humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
            > suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
            > announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
            > people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

            Shlomi, consider yourself as someone who wants to promot some political
            agenda. It is important to you, although you may not have a direct benefit
            from that. You try to make others accept your views of the matter.

            Consider a couple of things:

            * most people that will visit the site will not want to contribute (most
            hits are not sells)
            * You should not over-promote your project, e.g.: by spamming and by
            creating un-necessary announcements. People learn to filter-out such
            announcements.

            >
            > This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
            > Freecell Solver. Anyway, this should be the next ThinkGeek slogan:
            >

            What is your point here? That some software projects are not interesting
            to enough people?
            I could be selfish and ask you to contribute to r2l, but I know that you
            have better things to do in your spare time (freecell-solver, humanity,
            just to mention some computer-related ones)

            --
            Tzafrir Cohen
            mailto:tzafrir@...
            http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
          • Nadav Har'El
            ... Regardless of how interesting or commendable your effort is, I also agree that Freshmeat isn t exactly the natural home for such announcements... From
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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              On Sun, Oct 28, 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Is Open-Content and/or Collaborative Written Art OT on Freshmeat?":
              >
              > Refer to:
              >
              > http://freshmeat.net/projects/humanity/
              >
              > (once it is back on-line)
              >
              > Basically, a certain bloke there said that FM was not the right place for
              > "this kind of ****". I answered that I think it is because:

              Regardless of how interesting or commendable your effort is, I also agree
              that Freshmeat isn't exactly the natural home for such announcements...

              From Freshmeat's "About":

              "freshmeat maintains the Web's largest index of Unix and cross-platform
              open source software. ... Each entry provides a description of the
              software, links to download it and to obtain more information ....
              The first stop for Linux users hunting for the software they need for
              work or play ...
              In addition to providing news on new releases, freshmeat offers a
              variety of original content on technical, political, and social
              aspects of software and programming ..."

              The way I read this is that "projects" on freshmeat must be open source
              *software* (a movie isn't software, I think you'd agree), but "articles"
              can be anything vaguely related to software, open source ideas, and even
              ideas more remotely connected to those (so your movie would fit this, if
              it were an article...).

              Another "proof" that freshmeat projects were meant to be software, not
              movie scripts: Take a look at the subject tree ("Browse"). You'll find
              there categrories like "Communications", "Games/Entertainment", "Text
              Editors", and so on - not things like "Movies", "Books", "Manifestos", and
              so on.

              But all that being said - if you got your project listed on Freshmeat without
              them objecting, enjoy it and use it :) Good luck!

              --
              Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Oct 28 2001, 11 Heshvan 5762
              nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
              Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |How long a minute depends on what side of
              http://nadav.harel.org.il |the bathroom door you're on.
            • Omer Zak
              ... I disclaim any copyright or trademark claims of the above phrase. I am not the original author of the phrase (Moshe Zadka IIRC). However, in order to
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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                On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

                > BTW, I'd like to borrow the expression "There is no IGLU Cabal!"
                > for "Humanity" discussions. My interpretation of its meaning is "Is
                > not, Never happened, and never will happen". Sort of like "Lo Hayu Dvarim
                > Me'olam" or "Lo Dobim Ve'Lo Ya'ar" in Hebrew.
                >
                > OmerZ, being the Chief Self-Contradicting Identification Officer of IGLU
                > and Hackers-IL, do you approve of this meaning?

                I disclaim any copyright or trademark claims of the above phrase.
                I am not the original author of the phrase (Moshe Zadka IIRC).

                However, in order to reduce the equivalent of "trademark dilution", can
                you choose another name for an organization which is not supposed to
                exist, never existed, will never exist, but there are all kinds of
                unexplained traces of its existence?

                If not, go ahead with the IGLU Cabal.
                --- Omer
                There is no IGLU Cabal. The organization had to change its name due to an
                ugly and silly trademark dilution dispute. The new name is kept secret to
                prevent further trademark disputes.
                WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
              • Shlomi Fish
                ... The problem is that there are also fortune collections, documents and other stuff that are only partially related to software. So I don t think it doesn t
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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                  On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:

                  > On Sun, Oct 28, 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote about "[hackers-il] Is Open-Content and/or Collaborative Written Art OT on Freshmeat?":
                  > >
                  > > Refer to:
                  > >
                  > > http://freshmeat.net/projects/humanity/
                  > >
                  > > (once it is back on-line)
                  > >
                  > > Basically, a certain bloke there said that FM was not the right place for
                  > > "this kind of ****". I answered that I think it is because:
                  >
                  > Regardless of how interesting or commendable your effort is, I also agree
                  > that Freshmeat isn't exactly the natural home for such announcements...
                  >
                  > [snipped...]

                  The problem is that there are also fortune collections, documents and
                  other stuff that are only partially related to software. So I don't think
                  it doesn't belong there. Of course, if my way of doing things<tm> becomes
                  commonplace, it would probably be a better idea to start a separate
                  forum/bill board for that.

                  But what the hell - who is John Galt?

                  > But all that being said - if you got your project listed on Freshmeat without
                  > them objecting, enjoy it and use it :) Good luck!
                  >

                  Thanks!

                  > --
                  > Nadav Har'El | Sunday, Oct 28 2001, 11 Heshvan 5762
                  > nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
                  > Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |How long a minute depends on what side of
                  > http://nadav.harel.org.il |the bathroom door you're on.
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >



                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                  Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                  Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                  If:
                  1. A is A
                  2. A is not not-A
                  does it imply that
                  1. B is B
                  2. B is not not-B
                • mulix
                  ... no necessarily, people learn fairly quickly to filter out noise. post once a week/month - it s usefull. post once a day - it s noise. ... i think that
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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                    On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:

                    > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:
                    >
                    > > shut up and show them the code, in other words.
                    >
                    > I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
                    > humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
                    > suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
                    > announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
                    > people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.

                    no necessarily, people learn fairly quickly to filter out noise. post
                    once a week/month - it's usefull. post once a day - it's noise.

                    > This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
                    > Freecell Solver.

                    i think that contrary to what many people might think, most "bazaar
                    style" projects have a small core group of people that do most of the
                    work. i seem to recall reading something by alan cox to that effect,
                    too.

                    can you think of any big software project where many (let's say, more
                    than 10?) people work on te *same* pieces of code, regularly?

                    --
                    mulix

                    http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
                    http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                  • Shlomi Fish
                    ... I realize this fact. ... I m trying to promote the project for a one time thing at its announcement. ... I don t have a point, I was just casually
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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                      On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

                      > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                      >
                      > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > shut up and show them the code, in other words.
                      > >
                      > > I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
                      > > humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
                      > > suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
                      > > announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
                      > > people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.
                      >
                      > Shlomi, consider yourself as someone who wants to promot some political
                      > agenda. It is important to you, although you may not have a direct benefit
                      > from that. You try to make others accept your views of the matter.
                      >
                      > Consider a couple of things:
                      >
                      > * most people that will visit the site will not want to contribute (most
                      > hits are not sells)

                      I realize this fact.

                      > * You should not over-promote your project, e.g.: by spamming and by
                      > creating un-necessary announcements. People learn to filter-out such
                      > announcements.
                      >

                      I'm trying to promote the project for a one time thing at its
                      announcement.

                      > >
                      > > This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
                      > > Freecell Solver. Anyway, this should be the next ThinkGeek slogan:
                      > >
                      >
                      > What is your point here? That some software projects are not interesting
                      > to enough people?

                      I don't have a point, I was just casually mentioning a fact. It takes
                      a project some time to accumulate developers and that's all there is to
                      it.

                      Regards,

                      Shlomi Fish

                      > I could be selfish and ask you to contribute to r2l, but I know that you
                      > have better things to do in your spare time (freecell-solver, humanity,
                      > just to mention some computer-related ones)
                      >
                      > --
                      > Tzafrir Cohen
                      > mailto:tzafrir@...
                      > http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >



                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                      Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                      If:
                      1. A is A
                      2. A is not not-A
                      does it imply that
                      1. B is B
                      2. B is not not-B
                    • Shlomi Fish
                      ... Of course I m not going to post every little change. But I m going to post enough for people to get the hang of the major changes. ... Well, parrot (the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 28, 2001
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                        On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:

                        > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Shlomi Fish wrote:
                        >
                        > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, mulix wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > shut up and show them the code, in other words.
                        > >
                        > > I mostly agree with that. However, part of the reason why I started
                        > > humanity in the bazaar kind of way was that I wanted to get feedback,
                        > > suggestions, and even "code" from other people. Of course, the more
                        > > announcements I put for it on Freshmeat the more links I get, and the more
                        > > people will hear about the project, and the more people contribute, etc.
                        >
                        > no necessarily, people learn fairly quickly to filter out noise. post
                        > once a week/month - it's usefull. post once a day - it's noise.
                        >

                        Of course I'm not going to post every little change. But I'm going to post
                        enough for people to get the hang of the major changes.

                        > > This process, however, is quite slow, judging from what happened at
                        > > Freecell Solver.
                        >
                        > i think that contrary to what many people might think, most "bazaar
                        > style" projects have a small core group of people that do most of the
                        > work. i seem to recall reading something by alan cox to that effect,
                        > too.
                        >
                        > can you think of any big software project where many (let's say, more
                        > than 10?) people work on te *same* pieces of code, regularly?
                        >

                        Well, parrot (the perl6 bytecode interpreter) seems to be such a case. And
                        also the Linux Kernel. But naturally, they are relatively exceptional
                        cases.

                        In any case, the "bazaar" way of doing things has some properties, besides
                        the fact that "many" people co-operate on the code.

                        Regards,

                        Shlomi Fish

                        > --
                        > mulix
                        >
                        > http://www.pointer.co.il/~mulix/
                        > http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >



                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                        Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                        Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                        If:
                        1. A is A
                        2. A is not not-A
                        does it imply that
                        1. B is B
                        2. B is not not-B
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