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RE: [hackers-il] Re: OS development

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  • Chen Shapira
    ... Peleg, This OS was never written. It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the Scheme programming langauge. It included some
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
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      > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
      > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?

      Peleg,

      This OS was never written.
      It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the Scheme
      programming langauge.
      It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file systems.

      There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost nothing:
      http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS

      Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
      (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late at
      night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)

      Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain everything.

      I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
      Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system, which is
      just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to be
      usefull for study.
      I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have any
      questions about it, I can still help (I think).

      For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is very
      diffrent from everything else.

      And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of NT
      (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have that.

      And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I have it
      somewhere and can lend it.

      Thanks,
      Chen.
    • peleg_w@yahoo.com
      ... Scheme ... systems. ... at ... everything. ... which is ... be ... any ... very ... NT ... that. ... have it ... Chen, I thank you for the info and
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
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        --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:
        >
        > > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
        > > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?
        >
        > Peleg,
        >
        > This OS was never written.
        > It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the
        Scheme
        > programming langauge.
        > It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file
        systems.
        >
        > There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost
        nothing:
        > http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS
        >
        > Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
        > (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late
        at
        > night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)
        >
        > Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain
        everything.
        >
        > I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
        > Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system,
        which is
        > just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to
        be
        > usefull for study.
        > I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have
        any
        > questions about it, I can still help (I think).
        >
        > For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is
        very
        > diffrent from everything else.
        >
        > And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of
        NT
        > (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have
        that.
        >
        > And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I
        have it
        > somewhere and can lend it.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Chen.

        Chen,

        I thank you for the info and references, I'll go look at them now.
        About the book, it has allready been ordered and is probably stuck in
        the customs service. (only reasons for it to be 3 weeks late)

        Could you please tell me what is the Scheme programming language?

        Again, thank you very much for the info.
        Peleg.
      • Shlomi Fish
        ... Links: http://www.google.com/search?q=scheme which in turn yields: http://www.schemers.org/ and http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/scheme/ Now for my own
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
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          On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 peleg_w@... wrote:

          > --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
          > > > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?
          > >
          > > Peleg,
          > >
          > > This OS was never written.
          > > It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the
          > Scheme
          > > programming langauge.
          > > It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file
          > systems.
          > >
          > > There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost
          > nothing:
          > > http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS
          > >
          > > Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
          > > (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late
          > at
          > > night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)
          > >
          > > Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain
          > everything.
          > >
          > > I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
          > > Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system,
          > which is
          > > just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to
          > be
          > > usefull for study.
          > > I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have
          > any
          > > questions about it, I can still help (I think).
          > >
          > > For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is
          > very
          > > diffrent from everything else.
          > >
          > > And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of
          > NT
          > > (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have
          > that.
          > >
          > > And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I
          > have it
          > > somewhere and can lend it.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Chen.
          >
          > Chen,
          >
          > I thank you for the info and references, I'll go look at them now.
          > About the book, it has allready been ordered and is probably stuck in
          > the customs service. (only reasons for it to be 3 weeks late)
          >
          > Could you please tell me what is the Scheme programming language?
          >

          Links:

          http://www.google.com/search?q=scheme which in turn yields:

          http://www.schemers.org/

          and

          http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/scheme/


          Now for my own summary: Scheme is a symbolic, high-level language similar
          to LISP. Its main difference from other LISP variants is the fact that it
          has lexical scoping (rather than dynamic scoping). Scheme was
          orignally introduced as a tool for reasearch in Lambda Calculus, but since
          then its usage has expanded a bit.

          Many people in Hackers-IL (not including me) have Scheme as their
          favourite language. However, most Scheme implementations are very hard to
          do real work (e.g: that done with C, perl, python, etc.) with because they
          lack bindings to many common operations. With a proper encompassing
          standard, however, this situation may change.

          I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
          Club:

          http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/

          (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is one of the
          more knowledgable Schemers around us)

          There are many similar texts on the web, some of which introduce only
          Scheme.

          I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just in order to
          understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme, especially by
          means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" book,
          gives one many useful techniques and insights about programming. However,
          I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.

          Regards,

          Shlomi Fish





          > Again, thank you very much for the info.
          > Peleg.
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >



          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
          Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
          Home E-mail: shlomif@...

          A more experienced programmer does not make less bugs. He just realizes
          what went wrong more quickly.
        • Chen Shapira
          ... Nor will it help you much with Scheme. This book is a great introduction to CS book, but its scheme content could be shortened to a smaller book, and
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
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            > I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just in order to
            > understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme, especially by
            > means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" book,
            > gives one many useful techniques and insights about
            > programming. However,
            > I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.

            Nor will it help you much with Scheme.
            This book is a great "introduction to CS" book, but its scheme content could
            be shortened to a smaller book, and leave room for important concepts they
            left out (continuations, letrec).

            Scheme is a small language, SICP is a large book (and includes instructions
            on writing scheme compilers).
          • Chen Shapira
            ... I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme. There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best intro to
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
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              > I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
              > Club:
              >
              > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/
              >
              > (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is
              > one of the
              > more knowledgable Schemers around us)

              I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme.
              There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best "intro
              to lambda-calculus" I saw.

              But, really, learning scheme has nothing to do with OS research.
              And lambda-calculus is concidered partially estoric, and very advanced math,
              with little connection to anything at all.

              In TAU, btw, students are introduced to lambda calculus in their first year,
              discrete math course.
              Needless to say, I was the only one who liked the idea.
            • Oleg Goldshmidt
              ... I disagree. You can learn Scheme from SICP, and more importantly, you can learn a lot of relevant (to Scheme and beyond) concepts. In any case, IMH(umble)O
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
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                Chen Shapira <chen@...> writes:

                > Nor will it help you much with Scheme.

                I disagree. You can learn Scheme from SICP, and more importantly,
                you can learn a lot of relevant (to Scheme and beyond) concepts.

                In any case, IMH(umble)O this is one of the best CS books ever written
                (here I believe Chen says something similar), and I heartily recommend
                it.

                --
                Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
                If it ain't broken, it hasn't got enough features yet.
              • Omer Musaev
                ... There are some introductory materials on the web: Meir Goldberg s pages on Scheme: Scheme:
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
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                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Chen Shapira
                  > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:20 PM
                  > To: 'hackers-il@yahoogroups.com'
                  > Subject: RE: [hackers-il] Re: OS development
                  >
                  >
                  > > I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just
                  > in order to
                  > > understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme,
                  > especially by
                  > > means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer
                  > Programs" book,
                  > > gives one many useful techniques and insights about
                  > > programming. However,
                  > > I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.
                  >
                  > Nor will it help you much with Scheme.
                  > This book is a great "introduction to CS" book, but its
                  > scheme content could
                  > be shortened to a smaller book, and leave room for important
                  > concepts they
                  > left out (continuations, letrec).

                  There are some introductory materials on the web:

                  Meir Goldberg's pages on Scheme:

                  Scheme:
                  http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/courses/compiler-construction/help/index.htm
                  l
                  http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/interests-programming-languages/scheme/schem
                  e-programming-language.html
                  http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/interests-programming-languages/scheme/index
                  .html


                  The never-finished Scheme-Book http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeBook



                  >
                  > Scheme is a small language, SICP is a large book (and
                  > includes instructions
                  > on writing scheme compilers).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Shlomi Fish
                  ... Really? I m glad you liked it so much. In any case, I only taught enough Scheme to be able to teach Lambda Calculus with it, not more; so I agree that it
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 13, 2001
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                    On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Chen Shapira wrote:

                    > > I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
                    > > Club:
                    > >
                    > > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/
                    > >
                    > > (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is
                    > > one of the
                    > > more knowledgable Schemers around us)
                    >
                    > I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme.
                    > There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best "intro
                    > to lambda-calculus" I saw.
                    >

                    Really? I'm glad you liked it so much. In any case, I only taught enough
                    Scheme to be able to teach Lambda Calculus with it, not more; so I agree
                    that it is not a very good Scheme intro.

                    BTW, did you check out Mark-Jason Dominus' LC in Perl site?

                    http://perl.plover.com/lambda/

                    I only scanned through the article, but it doesn't look so bad.

                    > But, really, learning scheme has nothing to do with OS research.
                    > And lambda-calculus is concidered partially estoric, and very advanced math,
                    > with little connection to anything at all.
                    >

                    Lambda Calculus is the basis for functional programming, so it is actually
                    quite important. Lexical scoping (which was in fact introduced in Scheme)
                    was designed to emulate the behaviour of Lambda Calculus. And later
                    languages such as Perl 5 and XSL inherited the lexical scoping.

                    So, lexical scoping could not have been possible without lambda calculus,
                    and it is very convenient, besides.

                    This is just a simple example. In fact, learning LC can give one a lot of
                    insights about functional programming and programming in general.

                    > In TAU, btw, students are introduced to lambda calculus in their first year,
                    > discrete math course.

                    Very interesting. When I learned Lambda Calculus, I managed to do so only
                    becuase I used the Scheme behaviour as an analogy, and thought about
                    executing lambdas as executing functions.

                    Since in TAU, students are introduced to programming (in Scheme) in their
                    second semester, it means that they are not yet as ready as they can be to
                    learn about lambda calculus. I realize LC was invented before there were
                    computers powerful enough to execute it, but sometimes it is better to
                    approach a topic based on a future development.

                    From what Omer Mussaev told me and from my impression, they place a lot of
                    focus on Lambda Calculus in BGU. But I think even they teach programming
                    proper, before they teach LC.

                    > Needless to say, I was the only one who liked the idea.
                    >

                    I can understand why... Introducing LC to someone who doesn't know
                    programming is like explaining the Theory of Relativity to someone who
                    isn't familiar with Newtonian physics. Possible, but un-advised.

                    Regards,

                    Shlomi Fish

                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >



                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                    Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                    Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                    A more experienced programmer does not make less bugs. He just realizes
                    what went wrong more quickly.
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