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Re: OS development

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  • peleg_w@yahoo.com
    ... Ohh ohh... why is everybody looking at me? Should I run for my life?
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 9, 2001
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      --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:

      > Perhaps we found someone to revitalize it :-)

      Ohh ohh... why is everybody looking at me?
      Should I run for my life?
    • Shlomi Fish
      ... The Technion EE Faculty has lecture slides and exercise material in Hebrew for its Structure of OS course. The site is:
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 9, 2001
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        On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 peleg_w@... wrote:

        > Hi.
        >
        > I'm doing an "Avodat Gmar" on the subject of Operating Systems.
        > Meanwhile most of the materials I found on the subject are in english
        > and I would like to know if there are any hebrew materials avaiable?
        >
        > I only managed to find the book "Operating Systems Concepts" by the
        > Open University.
        > Are there any other materials (books, essays, etc...) that you can
        > point me to?
        >
        > Thanks.
        > Peleg.
        >

        The Technion EE Faculty has lecture slides and exercise material in Hebrew
        for its "Structure of OS" course.

        The site is:

        http://tiger.technion.ac.il/courses/046209/

        Many of them are available online in Microsoftish Formats.

        Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

        >
        >
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        >



        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
        Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
        Home E-mail: shlomif@...

        A more experienced programmer does not make less bugs. He just realizes
        what went wrong more quickly.
      • Chen Shapira
        ... We still have most documents for Scheme OS on the web, no? Perhaps we found someone to revitalize it :-)
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 10, 2001
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          > The work consists of 2 parts.
          > The first one is a theoretical one. It deals with explaining the
          > various task an OS has to do, etc...
          > The second part is a SMALL OS I will write that will be able to run
          > some basic programs in assembly.

          We still have most documents for Scheme OS on the web, no?
          Perhaps we found someone to revitalize it :-)
        • peleg_w@yahoo.com
          ... run ... I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :) I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it? Peleg.
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
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            --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:
            >
            > > The work consists of 2 parts.
            > > The first one is a theoretical one. It deals with explaining the
            > > various task an OS has to do, etc...
            > > The second part is a SMALL OS I will write that will be able to
            run
            > > some basic programs in assembly.
            >
            > We still have most documents for Scheme OS on the web, no?
            > Perhaps we found someone to revitalize it :-)


            I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
            I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?

            Peleg.
          • peleg_w@yahoo.com
            ... Hebrew ... 10x. It has some interesting stuff there I m looking into it now. Peleg.
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
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              > The Technion EE Faculty has lecture slides and exercise material in
              Hebrew
              > for its "Structure of OS" course.
              >
              > The site is:
              >
              > http://tiger.technion.ac.il/courses/046209/
              >
              > Many of them are available online in Microsoftish Formats.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Shlomi Fish
              >
              >


              10x. It has some interesting stuff there I'm looking into it now.

              Peleg.
            • Chen Shapira
              ... Peleg, This OS was never written. It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the Scheme programming langauge. It included some
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
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                > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
                > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?

                Peleg,

                This OS was never written.
                It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the Scheme
                programming langauge.
                It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file systems.

                There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost nothing:
                http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS

                Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
                (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late at
                night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)

                Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain everything.

                I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
                Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system, which is
                just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to be
                usefull for study.
                I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have any
                questions about it, I can still help (I think).

                For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is very
                diffrent from everything else.

                And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of NT
                (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have that.

                And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I have it
                somewhere and can lend it.

                Thanks,
                Chen.
              • peleg_w@yahoo.com
                ... Scheme ... systems. ... at ... everything. ... which is ... be ... any ... very ... NT ... that. ... have it ... Chen, I thank you for the info and
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
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                  --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
                  > > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?
                  >
                  > Peleg,
                  >
                  > This OS was never written.
                  > It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the
                  Scheme
                  > programming langauge.
                  > It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file
                  systems.
                  >
                  > There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost
                  nothing:
                  > http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS
                  >
                  > Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
                  > (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late
                  at
                  > night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)
                  >
                  > Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain
                  everything.
                  >
                  > I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
                  > Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system,
                  which is
                  > just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to
                  be
                  > usefull for study.
                  > I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have
                  any
                  > questions about it, I can still help (I think).
                  >
                  > For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is
                  very
                  > diffrent from everything else.
                  >
                  > And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of
                  NT
                  > (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have
                  that.
                  >
                  > And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I
                  have it
                  > somewhere and can lend it.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Chen.

                  Chen,

                  I thank you for the info and references, I'll go look at them now.
                  About the book, it has allready been ordered and is probably stuck in
                  the customs service. (only reasons for it to be 3 weeks late)

                  Could you please tell me what is the Scheme programming language?

                  Again, thank you very much for the info.
                  Peleg.
                • Shlomi Fish
                  ... Links: http://www.google.com/search?q=scheme which in turn yields: http://www.schemers.org/ and http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/scheme/ Now for my own
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
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                    On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 peleg_w@... wrote:

                    > --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
                    > > > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?
                    > >
                    > > Peleg,
                    > >
                    > > This OS was never written.
                    > > It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the
                    > Scheme
                    > > programming langauge.
                    > > It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file
                    > systems.
                    > >
                    > > There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost
                    > nothing:
                    > > http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS
                    > >
                    > > Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
                    > > (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late
                    > at
                    > > night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)
                    > >
                    > > Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain
                    > everything.
                    > >
                    > > I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
                    > > Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system,
                    > which is
                    > > just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to
                    > be
                    > > usefull for study.
                    > > I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have
                    > any
                    > > questions about it, I can still help (I think).
                    > >
                    > > For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is
                    > very
                    > > diffrent from everything else.
                    > >
                    > > And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of
                    > NT
                    > > (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have
                    > that.
                    > >
                    > > And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I
                    > have it
                    > > somewhere and can lend it.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > Chen.
                    >
                    > Chen,
                    >
                    > I thank you for the info and references, I'll go look at them now.
                    > About the book, it has allready been ordered and is probably stuck in
                    > the customs service. (only reasons for it to be 3 weeks late)
                    >
                    > Could you please tell me what is the Scheme programming language?
                    >

                    Links:

                    http://www.google.com/search?q=scheme which in turn yields:

                    http://www.schemers.org/

                    and

                    http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/scheme/


                    Now for my own summary: Scheme is a symbolic, high-level language similar
                    to LISP. Its main difference from other LISP variants is the fact that it
                    has lexical scoping (rather than dynamic scoping). Scheme was
                    orignally introduced as a tool for reasearch in Lambda Calculus, but since
                    then its usage has expanded a bit.

                    Many people in Hackers-IL (not including me) have Scheme as their
                    favourite language. However, most Scheme implementations are very hard to
                    do real work (e.g: that done with C, perl, python, etc.) with because they
                    lack bindings to many common operations. With a proper encompassing
                    standard, however, this situation may change.

                    I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
                    Club:

                    http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/

                    (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is one of the
                    more knowledgable Schemers around us)

                    There are many similar texts on the web, some of which introduce only
                    Scheme.

                    I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just in order to
                    understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme, especially by
                    means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" book,
                    gives one many useful techniques and insights about programming. However,
                    I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.

                    Regards,

                    Shlomi Fish





                    > Again, thank you very much for the info.
                    > Peleg.
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >



                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                    Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                    Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                    A more experienced programmer does not make less bugs. He just realizes
                    what went wrong more quickly.
                  • Chen Shapira
                    ... Nor will it help you much with Scheme. This book is a great introduction to CS book, but its scheme content could be shortened to a smaller book, and
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
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                      > I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just in order to
                      > understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme, especially by
                      > means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" book,
                      > gives one many useful techniques and insights about
                      > programming. However,
                      > I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.

                      Nor will it help you much with Scheme.
                      This book is a great "introduction to CS" book, but its scheme content could
                      be shortened to a smaller book, and leave room for important concepts they
                      left out (continuations, letrec).

                      Scheme is a small language, SICP is a large book (and includes instructions
                      on writing scheme compilers).
                    • Chen Shapira
                      ... I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme. There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best intro to
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
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                        > I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
                        > Club:
                        >
                        > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/
                        >
                        > (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is
                        > one of the
                        > more knowledgable Schemers around us)

                        I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme.
                        There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best "intro
                        to lambda-calculus" I saw.

                        But, really, learning scheme has nothing to do with OS research.
                        And lambda-calculus is concidered partially estoric, and very advanced math,
                        with little connection to anything at all.

                        In TAU, btw, students are introduced to lambda calculus in their first year,
                        discrete math course.
                        Needless to say, I was the only one who liked the idea.
                      • Oleg Goldshmidt
                        ... I disagree. You can learn Scheme from SICP, and more importantly, you can learn a lot of relevant (to Scheme and beyond) concepts. In any case, IMH(umble)O
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
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                          Chen Shapira <chen@...> writes:

                          > Nor will it help you much with Scheme.

                          I disagree. You can learn Scheme from SICP, and more importantly,
                          you can learn a lot of relevant (to Scheme and beyond) concepts.

                          In any case, IMH(umble)O this is one of the best CS books ever written
                          (here I believe Chen says something similar), and I heartily recommend
                          it.

                          --
                          Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
                          If it ain't broken, it hasn't got enough features yet.
                        • Omer Musaev
                          ... There are some introductory materials on the web: Meir Goldberg s pages on Scheme: Scheme:
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
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                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Chen Shapira
                            > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:20 PM
                            > To: 'hackers-il@yahoogroups.com'
                            > Subject: RE: [hackers-il] Re: OS development
                            >
                            >
                            > > I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just
                            > in order to
                            > > understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme,
                            > especially by
                            > > means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer
                            > Programs" book,
                            > > gives one many useful techniques and insights about
                            > > programming. However,
                            > > I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.
                            >
                            > Nor will it help you much with Scheme.
                            > This book is a great "introduction to CS" book, but its
                            > scheme content could
                            > be shortened to a smaller book, and leave room for important
                            > concepts they
                            > left out (continuations, letrec).

                            There are some introductory materials on the web:

                            Meir Goldberg's pages on Scheme:

                            Scheme:
                            http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/courses/compiler-construction/help/index.htm
                            l
                            http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/interests-programming-languages/scheme/schem
                            e-programming-language.html
                            http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/interests-programming-languages/scheme/index
                            .html


                            The never-finished Scheme-Book http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeBook



                            >
                            > Scheme is a small language, SICP is a large book (and
                            > includes instructions
                            > on writing scheme compilers).
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                          • Shlomi Fish
                            ... Really? I m glad you liked it so much. In any case, I only taught enough Scheme to be able to teach Lambda Calculus with it, not more; so I agree that it
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 13, 2001
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                              On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Chen Shapira wrote:

                              > > I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
                              > > Club:
                              > >
                              > > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/
                              > >
                              > > (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is
                              > > one of the
                              > > more knowledgable Schemers around us)
                              >
                              > I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme.
                              > There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best "intro
                              > to lambda-calculus" I saw.
                              >

                              Really? I'm glad you liked it so much. In any case, I only taught enough
                              Scheme to be able to teach Lambda Calculus with it, not more; so I agree
                              that it is not a very good Scheme intro.

                              BTW, did you check out Mark-Jason Dominus' LC in Perl site?

                              http://perl.plover.com/lambda/

                              I only scanned through the article, but it doesn't look so bad.

                              > But, really, learning scheme has nothing to do with OS research.
                              > And lambda-calculus is concidered partially estoric, and very advanced math,
                              > with little connection to anything at all.
                              >

                              Lambda Calculus is the basis for functional programming, so it is actually
                              quite important. Lexical scoping (which was in fact introduced in Scheme)
                              was designed to emulate the behaviour of Lambda Calculus. And later
                              languages such as Perl 5 and XSL inherited the lexical scoping.

                              So, lexical scoping could not have been possible without lambda calculus,
                              and it is very convenient, besides.

                              This is just a simple example. In fact, learning LC can give one a lot of
                              insights about functional programming and programming in general.

                              > In TAU, btw, students are introduced to lambda calculus in their first year,
                              > discrete math course.

                              Very interesting. When I learned Lambda Calculus, I managed to do so only
                              becuase I used the Scheme behaviour as an analogy, and thought about
                              executing lambdas as executing functions.

                              Since in TAU, students are introduced to programming (in Scheme) in their
                              second semester, it means that they are not yet as ready as they can be to
                              learn about lambda calculus. I realize LC was invented before there were
                              computers powerful enough to execute it, but sometimes it is better to
                              approach a topic based on a future development.

                              From what Omer Mussaev told me and from my impression, they place a lot of
                              focus on Lambda Calculus in BGU. But I think even they teach programming
                              proper, before they teach LC.

                              > Needless to say, I was the only one who liked the idea.
                              >

                              I can understand why... Introducing LC to someone who doesn't know
                              programming is like explaining the Theory of Relativity to someone who
                              isn't familiar with Newtonian physics. Possible, but un-advised.

                              Regards,

                              Shlomi Fish

                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >



                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                              Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                              Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                              A more experienced programmer does not make less bugs. He just realizes
                              what went wrong more quickly.
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