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Re: [hackers-il] OS development

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  • mulix
    ... except for the book you mention below, not that i know. perhaphs you could tell us some more about what you want to do? we might be able to recommend good
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 9, 2001
      On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 peleg_w@... wrote:

      > I'm doing an "Avodat Gmar" on the subject of Operating Systems.
      > Meanwhile most of the materials I found on the subject are in english
      > and I would like to know if there are any hebrew materials avaiable?

      except for the book you mention below, not that i know. perhaphs you
      could tell us some more about what you want to do? we might be able to
      recommend good resources, albeit probably in english.

      ObCompletelyUnrelated: slashdot has a link to an mp3 of a lecture Marvin
      Minsky (of AI fame) gave at a game developers' conference. interesting
      listening material.
      --
      mulix
      http://www.advogato.com/person/mulix

      linux/reboot.h: #define LINUX_REBOOT_MAGIC1 0xfee1dead
    • Nadav Har'El
      ... Sorry about the sarcasm, but I would point you to English-Hebrew, Hebrew-English Dictionary by Oxford University Press But seriously now, all the good
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 9, 2001
        On Sat, Jun 09, 2001, peleg_w@... wrote about "[hackers-il] OS development":
        > Hi.
        >
        > I'm doing an "Avodat Gmar" on the subject of Operating Systems.
        > Meanwhile most of the materials I found on the subject are in english
        > and I would like to know if there are any hebrew materials avaiable?

        Sorry about the sarcasm, but I would point you to
        "English-Hebrew, Hebrew-English Dictionary" by Oxford University Press

        But seriously now, all the good books in computing are in English. Even when
        Israelis write great books they usually do it in English (e.g., Shimon Even,
        and Bach was an Israeli too right?). Not all good books were translated to
        Hebrew (if I had to bet I'd say most of them haven't been translated) - because
        it seems the Hebrew translators concentrate on popular books like "HTML
        writing" and "Windows for dummies", not on OS theory.

        So if you're only looking for Hebrew books, watch out: you might be missing
        the greatest books, that have never been translated. You might be reading
        a crappy translation filled with mistakes (I've heard from a friend that they
        often take a guy with barely any computer experience, and no translation
        experience, give them the English book, and tell them to translate it. Probably
        not all publishers do so, but some do. Does anybody know which publishers of
        computer books in Hebrew are good?)

        Unfortunately, I cannot point you to a good Hebrew book on OS - The only
        computer book I ever read in Hebrew was a book about Basic, when I was 9
        (I didn't know English then :( ). But I didn't understand this book at all,
        so it didn't help that it was in Hebrew...

        A side note: I think that English is probably the most important subject
        you learn at school. This is because almost all people will actually need
        to use it sometimes in their lives (as opposed to, say, calculating integrals),
        and if you don't get comfortable with English during your school-years -
        especially reading (and some writing), you're going to suffer in the future.
        I've seen people (otherwise smart and educated) having a very hard time at
        the university because instead of reading articles in the original English
        they had to run around and get translations (this also costs them money),
        reading second-rate translated books, and other similar problems, not to
        mention that they couldn't write a decent article or manual in English if
        their life depended on it.
        There is only one way of getting comfortable with reading English: you need
        to practice. Just read a lot of English (web pages and mailing lists are ok
        too, but books are even better), and before you know it, you won't be
        looking for Hebrew books any more.

        --
        Nadav Har'El | Saturday, Jun 9 2001, 19 Sivan 5761
        nyh@... |-----------------------------------------
        Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |The message above is just this
        http://nadav.harel.org.il |signature's way of propagating itself.
      • peleg_w@yahoo.com
        ... University Press ... Apparently I forgot to mention that english is not a problem for me. I am able to read freely in english (as well as russian and
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 9, 2001
          --- In hackers-il@y..., "Nadav Har'El" <nyh@m...> wrote:
          > Sorry about the sarcasm, but I would point you to
          > "English-Hebrew, Hebrew-English Dictionary" by Oxford
          University Press
          >

          Apparently I forgot to mention that english is not a problem for me.
          I am able to read freely in english (as well as russian and hebrew)
          but it would be nice to give to my guide something easy to read :)
          his level of english is quite low, as it is for most teachers I
          know. :D


          BTW, I prefer "The Chambers Dictionary".
          Peleg.
        • peleg_w@yahoo.com
          ... english ... avaiable? ... to ... Marvin ... interesting ... The work consists of 2 parts. The first one is a theoretical one. It deals with explaining the
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 9, 2001
            --- In hackers-il@y..., mulix <mulix@a...> wrote:
            > On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 peleg_w@y... wrote:
            >
            > > I'm doing an "Avodat Gmar" on the subject of Operating Systems.
            > > Meanwhile most of the materials I found on the subject are in
            english
            > > and I would like to know if there are any hebrew materials
            avaiable?
            >
            > except for the book you mention below, not that i know. perhaphs you
            > could tell us some more about what you want to do? we might be able
            to
            > recommend good resources, albeit probably in english.
            >
            > ObCompletelyUnrelated: slashdot has a link to an mp3 of a lecture
            Marvin
            > Minsky (of AI fame) gave at a game developers' conference.
            interesting
            > listening material.
            > --
            > mulix
            > http://www.advogato.com/person/mulix
            >
            > linux/reboot.h: #define LINUX_REBOOT_MAGIC1 0xfee1dead


            The work consists of 2 parts.
            The first one is a theoretical one. It deals with explaining the
            various task an OS has to do, etc...
            The second part is a SMALL OS I will write that will be able to run
            some basic programs in assembly.

            Peleg.
          • peleg_w@yahoo.com
            ... Ohh ohh... why is everybody looking at me? Should I run for my life?
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 9, 2001
              --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:

              > Perhaps we found someone to revitalize it :-)

              Ohh ohh... why is everybody looking at me?
              Should I run for my life?
            • Shlomi Fish
              ... The Technion EE Faculty has lecture slides and exercise material in Hebrew for its Structure of OS course. The site is:
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 9, 2001
                On Sat, 9 Jun 2001 peleg_w@... wrote:

                > Hi.
                >
                > I'm doing an "Avodat Gmar" on the subject of Operating Systems.
                > Meanwhile most of the materials I found on the subject are in english
                > and I would like to know if there are any hebrew materials avaiable?
                >
                > I only managed to find the book "Operating Systems Concepts" by the
                > Open University.
                > Are there any other materials (books, essays, etc...) that you can
                > point me to?
                >
                > Thanks.
                > Peleg.
                >

                The Technion EE Faculty has lecture slides and exercise material in Hebrew
                for its "Structure of OS" course.

                The site is:

                http://tiger.technion.ac.il/courses/046209/

                Many of them are available online in Microsoftish Formats.

                Regards,

                Shlomi Fish

                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                >



                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                A more experienced programmer does not make less bugs. He just realizes
                what went wrong more quickly.
              • Chen Shapira
                ... We still have most documents for Scheme OS on the web, no? Perhaps we found someone to revitalize it :-)
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 10, 2001
                  > The work consists of 2 parts.
                  > The first one is a theoretical one. It deals with explaining the
                  > various task an OS has to do, etc...
                  > The second part is a SMALL OS I will write that will be able to run
                  > some basic programs in assembly.

                  We still have most documents for Scheme OS on the web, no?
                  Perhaps we found someone to revitalize it :-)
                • peleg_w@yahoo.com
                  ... run ... I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :) I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it? Peleg.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
                    --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > The work consists of 2 parts.
                    > > The first one is a theoretical one. It deals with explaining the
                    > > various task an OS has to do, etc...
                    > > The second part is a SMALL OS I will write that will be able to
                    run
                    > > some basic programs in assembly.
                    >
                    > We still have most documents for Scheme OS on the web, no?
                    > Perhaps we found someone to revitalize it :-)


                    I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
                    I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?

                    Peleg.
                  • peleg_w@yahoo.com
                    ... Hebrew ... 10x. It has some interesting stuff there I m looking into it now. Peleg.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
                      > The Technion EE Faculty has lecture slides and exercise material in
                      Hebrew
                      > for its "Structure of OS" course.
                      >
                      > The site is:
                      >
                      > http://tiger.technion.ac.il/courses/046209/
                      >
                      > Many of them are available online in Microsoftish Formats.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Shlomi Fish
                      >
                      >


                      10x. It has some interesting stuff there I'm looking into it now.

                      Peleg.
                    • Chen Shapira
                      ... Peleg, This OS was never written. It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the Scheme programming langauge. It included some
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
                        > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
                        > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?

                        Peleg,

                        This OS was never written.
                        It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the Scheme
                        programming langauge.
                        It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file systems.

                        There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost nothing:
                        http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS

                        Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
                        (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late at
                        night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)

                        Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain everything.

                        I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
                        Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system, which is
                        just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to be
                        usefull for study.
                        I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have any
                        questions about it, I can still help (I think).

                        For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is very
                        diffrent from everything else.

                        And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of NT
                        (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have that.

                        And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I have it
                        somewhere and can lend it.

                        Thanks,
                        Chen.
                      • peleg_w@yahoo.com
                        ... Scheme ... systems. ... at ... everything. ... which is ... be ... any ... very ... NT ... that. ... have it ... Chen, I thank you for the info and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
                          --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
                          > > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?
                          >
                          > Peleg,
                          >
                          > This OS was never written.
                          > It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the
                          Scheme
                          > programming langauge.
                          > It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file
                          systems.
                          >
                          > There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost
                          nothing:
                          > http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS
                          >
                          > Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
                          > (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late
                          at
                          > night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)
                          >
                          > Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain
                          everything.
                          >
                          > I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
                          > Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system,
                          which is
                          > just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to
                          be
                          > usefull for study.
                          > I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have
                          any
                          > questions about it, I can still help (I think).
                          >
                          > For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is
                          very
                          > diffrent from everything else.
                          >
                          > And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of
                          NT
                          > (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have
                          that.
                          >
                          > And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I
                          have it
                          > somewhere and can lend it.
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          > Chen.

                          Chen,

                          I thank you for the info and references, I'll go look at them now.
                          About the book, it has allready been ordered and is probably stuck in
                          the customs service. (only reasons for it to be 3 weeks late)

                          Could you please tell me what is the Scheme programming language?

                          Again, thank you very much for the info.
                          Peleg.
                        • Shlomi Fish
                          ... Links: http://www.google.com/search?q=scheme which in turn yields: http://www.schemers.org/ and http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/scheme/ Now for my own
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 11, 2001
                            On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 peleg_w@... wrote:

                            > --- In hackers-il@y..., Chen Shapira <chen@m...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > I would like to check Scheme OS if you could point me to it. :)
                            > > > I would also like to get any info about it... btw, who wrote it?
                            > >
                            > > Peleg,
                            > >
                            > > This OS was never written.
                            > > It was a game and design idea for an operating system, using the
                            > Scheme
                            > > programming langauge.
                            > > It included some interesting ideas about memory managment, and file
                            > systems.
                            > >
                            > > There is only one page of documentation, and it covers almost
                            > nothing:
                            > > http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeOS
                            > >
                            > > Also, search the Hackers-il archives, you may find something there.
                            > > (But I doubt that, most of the discussion took place in a pub, late
                            > at
                            > > night, and I doubt if anyone took notes)
                            > >
                            > > Hopefully, someone with better memory will have time to explain
                            > everything.
                            > >
                            > > I'll also mention my old mistress, HURD operating system.
                            > > Its a unix-like, open-source, micro-kernel based operating system,
                            > which is
                            > > just starting to look usefull, and has good enough documentation to
                            > be
                            > > usefull for study.
                            > > I wasn't involved with it for more than a year now, but if you have
                            > any
                            > > questions about it, I can still help (I think).
                            > >
                            > > For very interesting ideas, look into the EROS project, which is
                            > very
                            > > diffrent from everything else.
                            > >
                            > > And if you have good and detailed documentation about the design of
                            > NT
                            > > (message passing, memory managment, file system) - I'd like to have
                            > that.
                            > >
                            > > And if you need to borrow the classic Tanenbaum book, I think I
                            > have it
                            > > somewhere and can lend it.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks,
                            > > Chen.
                            >
                            > Chen,
                            >
                            > I thank you for the info and references, I'll go look at them now.
                            > About the book, it has allready been ordered and is probably stuck in
                            > the customs service. (only reasons for it to be 3 weeks late)
                            >
                            > Could you please tell me what is the Scheme programming language?
                            >

                            Links:

                            http://www.google.com/search?q=scheme which in turn yields:

                            http://www.schemers.org/

                            and

                            http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/scheme/


                            Now for my own summary: Scheme is a symbolic, high-level language similar
                            to LISP. Its main difference from other LISP variants is the fact that it
                            has lexical scoping (rather than dynamic scoping). Scheme was
                            orignally introduced as a tool for reasearch in Lambda Calculus, but since
                            then its usage has expanded a bit.

                            Many people in Hackers-IL (not including me) have Scheme as their
                            favourite language. However, most Scheme implementations are very hard to
                            do real work (e.g: that done with C, perl, python, etc.) with because they
                            lack bindings to many common operations. With a proper encompassing
                            standard, however, this situation may change.

                            I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
                            Club:

                            http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/

                            (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is one of the
                            more knowledgable Schemers around us)

                            There are many similar texts on the web, some of which introduce only
                            Scheme.

                            I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just in order to
                            understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme, especially by
                            means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" book,
                            gives one many useful techniques and insights about programming. However,
                            I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.

                            Regards,

                            Shlomi Fish





                            > Again, thank you very much for the info.
                            > Peleg.
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >



                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                            Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                            Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                            A more experienced programmer does not make less bugs. He just realizes
                            what went wrong more quickly.
                          • Chen Shapira
                            ... Nor will it help you much with Scheme. This book is a great introduction to CS book, but its scheme content could be shortened to a smaller book, and
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
                              > I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just in order to
                              > understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme, especially by
                              > means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" book,
                              > gives one many useful techniques and insights about
                              > programming. However,
                              > I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.

                              Nor will it help you much with Scheme.
                              This book is a great "introduction to CS" book, but its scheme content could
                              be shortened to a smaller book, and leave room for important concepts they
                              left out (continuations, letrec).

                              Scheme is a small language, SICP is a large book (and includes instructions
                              on writing scheme compilers).
                            • Chen Shapira
                              ... I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme. There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best intro to
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
                                > I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
                                > Club:
                                >
                                > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/
                                >
                                > (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is
                                > one of the
                                > more knowledgable Schemers around us)

                                I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme.
                                There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best "intro
                                to lambda-calculus" I saw.

                                But, really, learning scheme has nothing to do with OS research.
                                And lambda-calculus is concidered partially estoric, and very advanced math,
                                with little connection to anything at all.

                                In TAU, btw, students are introduced to lambda calculus in their first year,
                                discrete math course.
                                Needless to say, I was the only one who liked the idea.
                              • Oleg Goldshmidt
                                ... I disagree. You can learn Scheme from SICP, and more importantly, you can learn a lot of relevant (to Scheme and beyond) concepts. In any case, IMH(umble)O
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
                                  Chen Shapira <chen@...> writes:

                                  > Nor will it help you much with Scheme.

                                  I disagree. You can learn Scheme from SICP, and more importantly,
                                  you can learn a lot of relevant (to Scheme and beyond) concepts.

                                  In any case, IMH(umble)O this is one of the best CS books ever written
                                  (here I believe Chen says something similar), and I heartily recommend
                                  it.

                                  --
                                  Oleg Goldshmidt | ogoldshmidt@...
                                  If it ain't broken, it hasn't got enough features yet.
                                • Omer Musaev
                                  ... There are some introductory materials on the web: Meir Goldberg s pages on Scheme: Scheme:
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 12, 2001
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Chen Shapira
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:20 PM
                                    > To: 'hackers-il@yahoogroups.com'
                                    > Subject: RE: [hackers-il] Re: OS development
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > I would not go into all that trouble to learn Scheme just
                                    > in order to
                                    > > understand what SchemeOS was all about. Learning Scheme,
                                    > especially by
                                    > > means of the "Structure and Interpretation of Computer
                                    > Programs" book,
                                    > > gives one many useful techniques and insights about
                                    > > programming. However,
                                    > > I don't think it well help you with the OS essay, per ce.
                                    >
                                    > Nor will it help you much with Scheme.
                                    > This book is a great "introduction to CS" book, but its
                                    > scheme content could
                                    > be shortened to a smaller book, and leave room for important
                                    > concepts they
                                    > left out (continuations, letrec).

                                    There are some introductory materials on the web:

                                    Meir Goldberg's pages on Scheme:

                                    Scheme:
                                    http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/courses/compiler-construction/help/index.htm
                                    l
                                    http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/interests-programming-languages/scheme/schem
                                    e-programming-language.html
                                    http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~gmayer/interests-programming-languages/scheme/index
                                    .html


                                    The never-finished Scheme-Book http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Zen/SchemeBook



                                    >
                                    > Scheme is a small language, SICP is a large book (and
                                    > includes instructions
                                    > on writing scheme compilers).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > hackers-il-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Shlomi Fish
                                    ... Really? I m glad you liked it so much. In any case, I only taught enough Scheme to be able to teach Lambda Calculus with it, not more; so I agree that it
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 13, 2001
                                      On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Chen Shapira wrote:

                                      > > I wrote a lecture about Scheme and Lambda Calculus for the Haifa Linux
                                      > > Club:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/lecture/Lambda-Calculus/
                                      > >
                                      > > (Disclaimer: it was highly criticized by Omer Mussaev, who is
                                      > > one of the
                                      > > more knowledgable Schemers around us)
                                      >
                                      > I found the text useful, although more for lambda-calculus than for Scheme.
                                      > There are better scheme texts available on-line, but this is the best "intro
                                      > to lambda-calculus" I saw.
                                      >

                                      Really? I'm glad you liked it so much. In any case, I only taught enough
                                      Scheme to be able to teach Lambda Calculus with it, not more; so I agree
                                      that it is not a very good Scheme intro.

                                      BTW, did you check out Mark-Jason Dominus' LC in Perl site?

                                      http://perl.plover.com/lambda/

                                      I only scanned through the article, but it doesn't look so bad.

                                      > But, really, learning scheme has nothing to do with OS research.
                                      > And lambda-calculus is concidered partially estoric, and very advanced math,
                                      > with little connection to anything at all.
                                      >

                                      Lambda Calculus is the basis for functional programming, so it is actually
                                      quite important. Lexical scoping (which was in fact introduced in Scheme)
                                      was designed to emulate the behaviour of Lambda Calculus. And later
                                      languages such as Perl 5 and XSL inherited the lexical scoping.

                                      So, lexical scoping could not have been possible without lambda calculus,
                                      and it is very convenient, besides.

                                      This is just a simple example. In fact, learning LC can give one a lot of
                                      insights about functional programming and programming in general.

                                      > In TAU, btw, students are introduced to lambda calculus in their first year,
                                      > discrete math course.

                                      Very interesting. When I learned Lambda Calculus, I managed to do so only
                                      becuase I used the Scheme behaviour as an analogy, and thought about
                                      executing lambdas as executing functions.

                                      Since in TAU, students are introduced to programming (in Scheme) in their
                                      second semester, it means that they are not yet as ready as they can be to
                                      learn about lambda calculus. I realize LC was invented before there were
                                      computers powerful enough to execute it, but sometimes it is better to
                                      approach a topic based on a future development.

                                      From what Omer Mussaev told me and from my impression, they place a lot of
                                      focus on Lambda Calculus in BGU. But I think even they teach programming
                                      proper, before they teach LC.

                                      > Needless to say, I was the only one who liked the idea.
                                      >

                                      I can understand why... Introducing LC to someone who doesn't know
                                      programming is like explaining the Theory of Relativity to someone who
                                      isn't familiar with Newtonian physics. Possible, but un-advised.

                                      Regards,

                                      Shlomi Fish

                                      >
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                                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Shlomi Fish shlomif@...
                                      Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
                                      Home E-mail: shlomif@...

                                      A more experienced programmer does not make less bugs. He just realizes
                                      what went wrong more quickly.
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