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Re: [hackers-il] Academic education is Israel

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  • mulix
    ... allow me to clarify: my unit was fantastic in the _professional_ aspect, but it was still a a part of the army. professionaly it was wonderful, but it was
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 7, 2001
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      On Thu, 7 Jun 2001, Nadav Har'El wrote:

      > > actually, the unit i was in was really superb in all of these respects,
      > > and i still chose to leave once my three years were up. not because of
      > > my unit, which was incredible (and an excellent preamble to a high
      > > tech career), but because it was still a part of the army and
      > > occasionally you were reminded of that in the most unpleasant ways
      > > you can imagine.
      >
      > Read what you write again: read the first line of the above paragraph, and then
      > the last two lines. Don't you see a contradiction? Many people tell me

      allow me to clarify: my unit was fantastic in the _professional_ aspect,
      but it was still a a part of the army. professionaly it was wonderful,
      but it was still a part of the army and as such, sometimes things
      sucked. .

      i agree with you on general army suckiness. i disagree with you on the
      army's _professional_ suckiness. does that clear up the
      apparent contradiction?

      > You couldn't be more wrong :) Do you know me as someone who complains only
      > about wrongs done to him? Do you think I also wrote that essay about how free
      > software can help poor people because I am a poor person?

      i guess i shouldn't have assumed. your email came accross with the sort
      of tone i associate with strong _personal_ feeelings. i'm glad you
      didnt suffer too much :)

      > > the army, did the things i love with people who shared my passion for
      > > writing code, and accumulated lots of experience. all this, without
      > > signing for one extra minute of keva. i dont doubt many people share
      >
      > This is how it should be. And if you really loved it, you could have stayed
      > there after the 3 years were over (of course, not everyone would stay but
      > if only 25% stayed, it would be enough and they didn't have to force everyone
      > to stay 3 years).

      the army, or rather my superiors, would have loved for me to stay (and
      indeed, tried to tempt me in many ways) but i was set on starting the
      technion as soon as possible. if i was "forced" to stay, it wouldn't
      have hurt me one bit.

      > > your misgivings about the army, but neither do i doubt many peolpe share
      > > my kind of story. in recent newspaper articles, my unit was called "the
      > > hightech greenhouse of israel". how much of that per-capita income you talk about
      > > is coming from people who, once they leave the army use _the knowledge
      > > they learned in the army_ to make many millions of dollars? (checkpoint
      > > comes to mind here...)
      >
      > Wouldn't they get the same knoweldge by working 3 years in the civilian
      > industry? They would.

      they would - if they could get in in the first place. how many companies
      do you know that train _completely unexperienced and unproven_ people
      and give them this kind of knowledge?

      > Why are you bringing up what the army wants all the time? The army will

      because i agree with you that the army should not be all powerfull and
      omnipotent, should not take too many resources from society. however,
      the only way for the army to do that is to use whatever resources it
      does have in the most effective way. and unfortunately, you, and i, and
      every other 18 year old are _resources_ for the army, to be used in the
      most effective possible way.

      you cannot give with one hand and deny with the other. we agree that the
      army is a necessity, do we not? we agree that it should be as efficient
      as possible in its usage of resources, do we not, in order to be the
      least burden for society? well, for the army, just like for any other
      company, a person _is_ a resource, to be used as effectively is
      possible. some army units understand nowdays that sometimes that means
      giving their people good conditions and a good salary and treating them
      like human beings. one day, i hope, the entire army will realise this
      and then they wont need to coerce someone into signing 'keva', since
      they'll be able to compete fair and square for that person. until that
      happens, the army will use whatever advantage it has. i am NOT saying it
      is right, but i am saying its justified, _from the army's point of
      view_.

      > Sorry about all this ranting ;) Nothing is against you Muli, of course - I'm
      > just clearing some anger :) I think we should open a new list,
      > ranting-and-bitching-il for this kind of postings...

      nothing personal here either, nadav :)

      but can we get back to hacking now?
      --
      mulix
      http://www.advogato.com/person/mulix

      linux/reboot.h: #define LINUX_REBOOT_MAGIC1 0xfee1dead
    • Adi Stav
      ... Actually, the army does not want to receive 90% of the budget, because that would harm economical growth and would reduce the overall budget in the future.
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 7, 2001
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        On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 03:47:14PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
        > Why are you bringing up what the army wants all the time? The army will
        > prefer people to enlist for 10 years. I will prefer to pay them 100 shekels
        > a month, instead of 300, and to call the first 9 years "sherut chova" and
        > only the last year "keva". It will prefer people to sleep in tents rather
        > than build places to sleep. It will prefer to get 90% of the national budget,
        > and not anything less. It will prefer people to do 180 days of miluim every
        > year.

        Actually, the army does not want to receive 90% of the budget, because
        that would harm economical growth and would reduce the overall budget in
        the future. The army has an "econimical planning" unit that does the
        necessary calculations and estimation to decide what is the optimum amount
        to request, that would leave the army with as much money as possible both
        in the present and future.

        Of course, that supports your point further.
      • peleg_w@yahoo.com
        ... determining what ... do in the next ... through a ... And see his ... Would he ... your other ... You do have a point here. I still have a few months to
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 7, 2001
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          --- In hackers-il@y..., Dan Kenigsberg <danken@c...> wrote:
          > > I'm currently finishing 11th grade and since I want to get to the
          > > atuda
          >
          > WHY? Maybe you should think again. Remember - not only are you
          determining what
          > you are going to do, but also what a 27 years old man is going to
          do in the next
          > decade. Are you sure he will want to wear green outfit? Or go
          through a
          > bureaucratic ordeal when he wants to go abroad, or see a doctor?
          And see his
          > friends having fun in south America while he's doing Katzin Toran?
          Would he
          > think of you kindly?
          >
          > I'm not saying not to consider it, or apply for it. But check out
          your other
          > options before you commit.


          You do have a point here.
          I still have a few months to decide if I want to do it, and I'll re-
          consider it.
        • peleg_w@yahoo.com
          ... know, ... CS, is ... I am in 5 points... I had no other choice since I wanted to take Physics and CS.
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 7, 2001
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            --- In hackers-il@y..., mulix <mulix@a...> wrote:
            > the technion does not have such a formal requirement, as far as i
            know,
            > but since 5 point math get a double bonus (they count as 10 points)
            > plus a 30% (if i remember correctly) modifier, getting in without 5
            > points can be almost impossible. the competition, especially for
            CS, is
            > fierce :(
            >
            > --
            > mulix
            > http://www.advogato.com/person/mulix
            >
            > linux/reboot.h: #define LINUX_REBOOT_MAGIC1 0xfee1dead

            I am in 5 points... I had no other choice since I wanted to take
            Physics and CS.
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